Johnny10: Falling deeper into hell

[bubble]

Hi Johnny,

 

I have merged your new post with your initial thread because each member has one thread here. It's easier to follow your progress that way. 

 

Maybe what you are blaming on lecithin actually has nothing to do it but is simply protracted withdrawal? But still I'd do what Alto advised

[Muddles]

Hi Jonny. Was only just recently wondering how you were getting on. Sorry to hear your past weeks have been very rough. I do wish there was a cure for this condition but sounds like the only cure is time. Please keep us up-dated on how you are doing.

[johnny10]

Hello,

 

yes, the past weeks are absolutely extreme. I know it sounds strange to experience this while stopping lecithin, but I have never expected it. I have problems with brain befire, so probably I got addicted to lecithin, which I of course cannot explain to doctors, as it is so strange.

 

According to my notes, I stopped lecithin on June 19, then after severe withdrawals had one dose on June 22, with rather good reaction, then after week of suffering I took dose on June 29, with extremely bad reaction, and since then it is still hell, and I cannot go back on it, as taking it last time only worsened it. So I am not taking it and I wasnt able to reduce it gradually, as I took two capsules, so there is not a lot of space for gradual withdrawal, moreover I was not expecting this. If i could go back on it I would, but after last experince I cannot. After one week of last capsule I ended up on ER, feeling like mentally losing myself, which happend even before, but now I was extremely weak, and didnt have a lot of feeling in my forearms.

 

I dont want to describe it a lot, as I rather need to substitute lecithin somehow naturally. I have constant war in my head, and akathisia is still extreme.

 

Dont know what to do. With such things happening, I cannot find help with doctors. This really started when I stopped lecithin, so I know it is from that. And improved after I reinstated after four days. So its definitely lecithin.

 

Now it will be two weeks without lecithin, without any improvement, this was the first time I was on ER, and during eight years of my treatment I stopped a lot of medications, but this has never happened to me. I know its extremely strange, and that makes it so hard to do something. I think I descibed some of my last months, but this is like it is still going down, even though I withdrawn lecithin to help myself. Dont know what to do. At least I was able to send this.

[Rhiannon]

Well I would say that in your case it's important to avoid changing things. You probably shouldn't try any new supplements.

 

It can be difficult not to react to the ups and downs of withdrawal. I know that when I'm having a hard time I get the urge to do something, ANYthing. But usually it's important to keep things the same, stable, routine, steady. And in your case I would urge you to avoid supplements, other than maybe a small amount of fish oil and a small amount of tolerable magnesium.

[johnny10]

Yes, thats the problem, I react badly to supplements. So I will not even try another one, thats why I am withdrawing them. Even fish oil and magnesium are doing bad to me, actually I am getting more of them from food than from supplements. I still take some supplements, as I tried to withdraw it one by one, but withdrawing of lecithin has stopped me for a long time. I still have vitamin C, vitamin D, and bright light therapy lamp. I cannot withdraw them now as I wouldnt know what the body reacts to, if smth happens.

 

I just dont know what to do if the feeling of kind of fainting, though its not fainting, comes. If they will behave as before on ER I will not get help. My case is so strange, that I cannot get a lot of help from doctors, anyway they would prescribe some medication. I myself dont understand the reaction, as for example when I stopped multivitamin from day to day after roughly four years use, it was only mild fatigue on the first day, but then it was ok, as I waited. So I expected it would be easy also withdrawing from lecithin, just after a little more than two months use. But then it turned out differentlly. i think the problem was that is has a lot of things which the brain is made of, and I started it after my problems with short-term memory and thinking, so probably the brain got somehow addicted to it, I cannot explain it now differently to me. So dont know what to do now, I can only hope, but if smth happens I dont knopw what to do.

[Petunia]

Hi Johnny,

I just read through your thread.  It really would help us to help you if you filled in your signature.  Instructions here:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/893-please-put-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature/

 

Your case really isn't so strange when you take into consideration that you suddenly stopped taking venlafaxine (effexor) after 6 years of use.  That you have also taken mirtazapine, trazadone and mianserin and have tried to reinstate twice, with bad reactions.

 

From reading your thread, its still difficult to understand the details of your drug and tapering history, but its clear to me that you are experiencing protracted withdrawal symptoms with a destabilized nervous system.  All the supplements you have been trying and large quantities of certain foods are probably making your symptoms worse as your nervous system keeps trying to adjust to the changes.

 

Withdrawal symptoms increase and decrease in random patterns over time as recovery progresses very slowly.  Its been called the windows and waves pattern, you can learn more about it here:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/82-the-windows-and-waves-pattern-of-recovery/

 

Reading through these topics about withdrawal syndrome may help:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/603-what-is-withdrawal-syndrome/

 

Venlafaxine (effexor) is a difficult drug to stop taking for many people, no one should stop taking it suddenly.  Withdrawal can last a long time, months and even years sometimes. You will recover, but its going to take some time and learning ways to help manage your symptoms as your recover will help a little.

 

This section will tell you what kinds of treatment have helped other people who are experiencing withdrawal symptoms:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/forum/8-symptoms-and-self-care/

 

Please take your time and read through as much of this information as you can, so you can learn about withdrawal. Taking and stopping lecithin may have had some effect on your symptoms, but the underlying cause is protracted withdrawal from venlafaxine.

 

I'm copying a section from the 3KIS rules for you below:

 

2.d. Be patient, recovery is inconsistent and gradual. The nervous system is very complicated. It can repair itself, but it takes time to do this. In the meantime, you may experience The Windows and Waves Pattern of Recovery
 
3. Keep it stable.
 
The nervous system is delicate and very complicated. Normally, the autonomic system runs your body with numerous checks and balances, constantly gauging what hormones and transmitters need to be increased and which need to be decreased. Its job is to keep your body stable, at a tolerable temperature range, with everything running smoothly.
 
Psychiatric drugs interfere with the entire nervous system, not just the brain. This is why changing dosage of just one drug can affect your eyesight, your digestion, and your sleep. Taking psychiatric drugs affects the functions of the nervous system.
 
The nervous system, which works so hard to keep your body running smoothly, thrives on stability. When you take a psychiatric drug over a period of time (usually a month or more), your body becomes dependent on the drug. This is called physiological dependency.
 
The nervous system adapts itself to the drug like a plant growing on a trellis. If you tear the trellis away, the plant will be damaged. You need to remove the trellis gradually and allow the plant to retrain itself to its natural growth pattern.
 
Thus, the nervous system does best in a stable environment. Help your nervous system adapt to life without drugs by maintaining as much stability as you can. This is the way you can take care of yourself and help your nervous system to recover. We are our own worst enemies when it comes to stressing our nervous systems! Examples:
 
3.a. Do not suddenly quit taking your drugs. Do not skip doses to taper. These big, fast changes are the opposite of providing stability for your nervous system. Skipping doses causes the amount of the drug in your bloodstream to go up and down. Do not do this for any psychiatric drug.

 

3.b. Avoid binges. Even if you had no problems with them before, avoid overindulgence in alcohol, food, partying, sugar, staying up late, even exercise. All of these put the body and the nervous system under stress.
 
3.c. Manage emotional stress. Yes, that abusive relationship can be keeping you from recovering from withdrawal syndrome. You may wish to reduce contact with any people who tend to upset you. If you are an argumentative person, you may wish to minimize your confrontations.
 
3.d. Direct your time and efforts to pastimes that are calming or pleasurable. Calm is good for the nervous system. Always make time for a pleasant walk of at least a half-hour every day. Many people find a place for meditation in their lives because it makes them feel better. Spending time with pets or in nature ("forest bathing") can also be soothing. See our Symptoms and Self-Care forum for more suggestions.
 
3.e. Keep your daily circadian rhythm steady. Your body runs on a daily pattern governed by sunrise and sunset -- the circadian rhythm. Our bodies do best when we wake in the morning, go to sleep at night, and eat at about the same times every day. You may wish to reduce artificial light at night. Do what you can to maintain a regular daily schedule, this helps your nervous system function. See Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems.

[johnny10]

Thanks Petu, actually I was trying to write my medical history, but for weeks I was not capable. Its been two weeks since stopping lecithin completely, which is just a supplement, and I stopped it in the past without any problems, and after week of stopping I ended up for the first time on ER, although I was suffering for almost one year, but never went to ER. I am trying to keep it stable, I am only having food to replace lecithin somehow. But over this almost year, it was extreme, maybe I wrote it, but never this bad, its hard to describe even for me. During withdrawing venlafaxine I have never experienced anything even close to this. I know you cannot replace SSRIs from food, but lecithin you can somehow, but I dont know how. When I stopped magnesium supplement natural calm, I was able to bring back my thinking and memory just by eating a lot of almonds, they contain also magnesium, but maybe it was smth different, and after stopping almonds, my brain has never recovered. I wish I have never stopped them that time. I wouldnt reinstate venlafaxine, which just worsened everything.

[Altostrata]

Welcome, johnny.

 

You may wish to try opening the capsule and taking a half-capsule of lecithin. This often helps antidepressant withdrawal symptoms, maybe it will help these.

[johnny10]

Thanks Altostrata, but these capsules cannot be opened, they can be cut, and inside is some oil. I would rather not risk it just to swallow the oil. They look like fish oil capsules.

[Petunia]

Thank you for adding your signature Johhny, when do you take the clonazapam?

[Altostrata]

You can get lecithin powder, how about trying a bit of that?

[johnny10]

Clonazepam is morning 0,5 mg, afternoon 0,5 mg, evening 1 mg, maybe I ca add it to signature, but didnt want to make it long.

 

Actually I have also lecithin granules, so I tried that like a taper method, I tried a smaller dose than which I had, but didnt help. Now Im reluctant to try again, as it is more than two weeks from the last dose of lecithin, and last two days were a little bit better, I was able to write here, so it was a little better. Its not a lot of time, but I have to wait if there will be improvement. Becasuse there was, but than it worsened a lot. I hope it will be better.

[bubble]

Please add changes in clonazepam to your signature. These changes might be contributing more to how you are feeling than lecithin...there is a specialised sub-forum on benzos here.

 

I'm very glad you have experienced a window. It's very promising.

[johnny10]

Thanks bubble, but I still feel much worse than before starting to withdraw lecithin, and how it was before I probably described. But at least Im happy I can write here smth. I will add clonazepam changes.

[bubble]

Yes, withdrawal makes as extra sensitive to literally everything, sometimes even the most innocent of food.

 

Reading the links that Petu copied for you will explain what you are going through so I warmly recommend them.

[johnny10]

They are great links, the problem is that my body reacts very differently than it should. Probably it wouldnt if mirtazapine didnt cause akathisia. Natural calm, which is a type of magnesium supplement, aggravated my akathisia to hell, which was till then very manageable and I was able to live basically almost normal life, clonazepam at least decreased it a lot, unfortunately hiding the causing agent, which was probably mianserin that time, a predecessor of mirtazapine, and then it started to be really bad and worsening, and after withdrawing natural calm, short-term memory and thinking were damaged, I just dont understand it. Things got still worse and worse, some new problems were arising.

 

So I tried a few supplements, but it made my state worse. I dont say all of them, but for me it is virtually impossible to find if there is some good supplement. For example I had no reaction to lecithin, so I just waited. Then after month of nothing I tried to withdraw it, and I felt a mental decline, this is smth I cannot describe, this is the best probably. As I cannot think that clearly I rather came back on it. After I saw that my state is slowly only worsening, I decided to do what I am doing, one by one withdraw everything. Some things came extremely easily, but extremely huge problems came with decreasing bright light therapy, and stopping lecithin. But this could at least mean they were worsening akathisia.

 

So the problem is that when I took a supplement, I didnt see a bad reaction, it was like a silent killer. People say you have to wait some time to see the results, so I waited. Only after some coincidences I found out that some supplements are problematic. Then I decided to withdraw everything, some first with great success, but those two made withdrawal problems so big, that I have never experienced smth like that.

 

I dont want to say that the supplements are bad, they can be very helpful, but my body just reacts so strangely. It is like Altostrata said, that I am the first person asking about getting off lecithin. I took it twice in my life before, both before memory and thinking problems started, and had absolutely no problem stopping them. I dont know what happened, but now I even cannot rely on my own past experience.

 

I would like to meditate and do CBT, I was doing both for more than one year before August, meditation was helping me a lot with calming me down, it was just kind of prevention, like healthy life style, and CBT was the best thing ever that helped me on my social anxiety. Now I cannot do none, it is just the chemistry of my body, I mean akathisia, being constantly in tension, or whatever you call it. So I know how to do it, as I was doing it, but my body just doesnt allow me.

 

There were some better times, when I accidentally forgot to take natural calm, and I was able to do extremely good CBT. Coincidences like these helped me to find out that natural calm was really the culprit, which is extremely strange.

[Altostrata]

Clonazepam is morning 0,5 mg, afternoon 0,5 mg, evening 1 mg, maybe I ca add it to signature, but didnt want to make it long.

 

Actually I have also lecithin granules, so I tried that like a taper method, I tried a smaller dose than which I had, but didnt help. Now Im reluctant to try again, as it is more than two weeks from the last dose of lecithin, and last two days were a little bit better, I was able to write here, so it was a little better. Its not a lot of time, but I have to wait if there will be improvement. Becasuse there was, but than it worsened a lot. I hope it will be better.

 

This is a good sign. Given you have this psych drug history, perhaps your nervous system was sensitized to even lecithin withdrawal.

 

Please look in the Symptoms and Self-care forum for tips about how to deal with symptoms as you wait for your system to repair itself.