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☼ chicken: help I'm scared mirtazapine Remeron

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chicken

Akathisia goes away on its own. This can take quite a while, but it does go away.

 

You will need to find the strength to take care of yourself while you are tapering. If you do not have that confidence in yourself, perhaps you should not taper at this time.

Altostrata,

Thanks for your kind words. I went to my regular PDoc today and he wishes for me to stay on the remeron due to my history of severe anxiety. I brought up some of the issues that I had mentioned here on the board. He admitted to withdrawal from these drugs and that most withdrawal lasts 4 to 8 weeks normally. I told thim that I was going to see another pDoc. He agreed that if I wanted to do that that he would send my records to my new doc. He said that he hadn't heard of Dr. Breggin. (I'm not suprised)

 

I want my new doc (Dr. Johnson) to thouroughly review my records before we start any kind of taper. Even though Dr. Johnson was trained under Dr. Breggin and firmly believes in getting of meds, his nurse told me that some of his patients are still on a low dose. I have have read that Dr. Breggin says that a small amount of people may never be able to come off.

 

My anxiety has eased up a lot. I'm still taking a very low dose of tranxene (Benzo).  My anxiety may still be lingering from when I stopped taking remeron a few weeks ago and ended up in crisis. I know this sounds weird but I fear the rememron more than benzos. I was up all night Friday with anxiety and walked around all day Saturday just praying for help. If finally eased up and I am back at work today. I agree Alto that I need to be completely stabilized before tapering.

 

As for akathesia, I believe another lady on here AnnieJ had it and Dr. Shipko said she was "screwed". Klonopin was able to help her. I was wondering if she was able to get over it yet. I was just scared if I got it and Klonopin could help it what would I do. I've read of some cases where Klonopin never helped. I read on another site where a man had akathesia for 8 years. I know I couldn't  hold out for eight years because the last time I had extreme anxiety I couldn't eat for a month and threw up all the time. I lost down to 100 pounds. They put me in the hospital and that's how I got on the remeron. My pdoc even said that all the cases of akathesia that he knew of went way and he has been a psychiatrist for over 40 years.

 

I guess Alto, is that I'm just preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. I guess reading Shipko can be scary but I'm just the kind of person who needs to know what the worst can be. I don't think the Lord is going to let me get that bad. He knows what I can handle.

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chicken

 

Hi all Thanks.

 

I've had so much anxiety over whether or not to get off this drug and all I've found are horror stories about my particular drug. Two people have akathasia from it over on the paxil progress site. Most people with akthasia commit suicide because it is incurable and is caused a lot by withdrawal.

 

I've been in so much anxiety that my boss put me on light duty at work until I can see Dr. Johnson in July. I"m been praying to the Lord for his guidance and he keeps letting me know to just trust Him.

 

Muddles, so far it hasn't pooped out on me and does help with my anxiety. My natural anxiety can be so overwhelming as to make me suicidal even without a drug. Had this before starting a drug. Prozac was the best thing I ever had for anxiety but I stopped it. Maybe I shouldn't have because I can't take SSRI's anymore.

So I really don't know what to do. Remeron does help, even though I hate taking it.  If I stop taking the drug my anxiety could be debiliating again.

 

Astro, thanks for your input on Dr. Shipko. I hope he is so wrong. I've heard of people suffering for years. I just don't think I could hold out for years.

 

Keep praying for me that when I do withdraw my symptoms will be short. I've heard Remeron/Mirtazipine is a nasty drug to withdraw from.

 

I don't know where you got the idea that akathisia is incurable.  Wherever, that's dead wrong.  Some people experience it and some don't, and those who do seem to have it mostly at the beginning of withdrawal. It lets up over time.

 

As for Dr. Shipko, please keep in mind that nearly all of his experience has been with the benzodiazepines (Valium, Xanax, et cetera) rather than SSRI antidepressants or Remeron, which is a very strong antihistamine. I'm not sure about Dr. Breggins' background, but it's always true that medical opinion is nothing more than an educated opinion.  It isn't fact, and there are astonishing cases where doctors have been altogether wrong.

 

Contrary to popular thought, the brain remains capable of change and repair for as long as we live.  Here's a book about some astounding recoveries from serious medical conditions - The Brain That Changes Itself: Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science -  and there are others. And since I see that you're a believer, you know very well that God can do anything, including miracles that defy all human "science". I recently read a book by a woman who went blind at the age of fifteen (from Retinitis Pigmentosa), who was puzzled that God hadn't healed her, when she knew another woman with the same condition who could see despite having the same condition. In other words, the latter woman could see even though her retinas were completely deteriorated. That makes no sense in terms of human-created science, but it was a real phenomenon.

 

I suspect that at least some of your anxiety is due to being on and off a variety of psychiatric drugs over the years. This sensitizes the nervous system beyond where you started and it takes a great deal of time to heal.  I've always been an anxious person myself, but surprisingly, withdrawal has somehow made me better able to cope with my worries. Perhaps it was the experience of going through an awful withdrawal with my only "rock" being the knowledge that I was in God's hands and having the experience for His reasons.

 

I do agree with Alto about not tapering at this time if you don't feel up to it. Listening to one's body during withdrawal is very, very important. You will, however, be able to get off the stuff when you're ready and most likely with no permanent damage done. We have cases of people with much worse drug histories than your who have completely recovered: Recovery Success Stories

 

Thank you Jamima!

If God can get you off the drug he can with me too. Maybe I misunderstood Shipko. I think he had some patients who couldn't get rid of their akathesia.

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wulfgar

Hi Chicken,

 

I have had a tough time getting of Mirtazapine, but I'm of now since about 4 months and many/most symptoms of wd have let up. The advice you get here on this board is very good!

 

Personally, i believe there is no benefit to staying on these drugs long term. If used, they should be used only for people acutely and only for a short duration. Out bodies adapt to these drugs and eventually they give no relief and then coming of gets harder.

 

So, if you want one example of one coming of Mirtazapine, find my thread, and read the last parts of it. I will not consider myself completely safe before one year has passed though. There is still healing to be done, better sleep, weight to lose, and stamina and strength to retrain.

 

It is possible to get of Mirtazapine! Going sufficiently slow is key to success!

 

Best

Wulfgar

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chicken

Hi Chicken,

 

I have had a tough time getting of Mirtazapine, but I'm of now since about 4 months and many/most symptoms of wd have let up. The advice you get here on this board is very good!

 

Personally, i believe there is no benefit to staying on these drugs long term. If used, they should be used only for people acutely and only for a short duration. Out bodies adapt to these drugs and eventually they give no relief and then coming of gets harder.

 

So, if you want one example of one coming of Mirtazapine, find my thread, and read the last parts of it. I will not consider myself completely safe before one year has passed though. There is still healing to be done, better sleep, weight to lose, and stamina and strength to retrain.

 

It is possible to get of Mirtazapine! Going sufficiently slow is key to success!

 

Best

Wulfgar

Wulfgar,

What dosage did you make the final jump from?

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chicken

Jemima,

I believe it's the tardive Akathisia that is not curable. This is the late onset TA/DK that occurs months after a drug is stopped. I read where Breggin said that this could be permanent.

Have you run into this in your studies of withdrawal?

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Rhiannon

Chicken, I haven't read through your whole thread, but we have had lots and lots of people here who've had akathisia. It's a common problem. It almost always eases up and usually goes away completely as far as I can tell from peoples self reports.

 

It can appear while taking a drug, when you first quit taking a drug, or months later after quitting when people get a delayed withdrawal reaction.

 

I don't have any experience with a permanent kind of akathisia. I have heard of tardive dyskinesia from drug damage being permanent, and certainly it's possible there could be a permanent type of tardive akathisia. But I've never encountered anyone first hand on these forums, in four years and many thousands of hours, who had permanent akathisia, and I've encountered many dozens or even a hundred over the years (haven't counted, but I've talked to a LOT of people over those years) who had akathisia and recovered from it. 

 

So I think there's probably a good chance, whatever your story is, that you will recover from your akathisia over time if you give your CNS the stability to heal itself. 

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chicken

Thanks Rhi,

I don't have it. I'm just so afraid of getting it when I come off my drug.

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chicken

Chicken, I haven't read through your whole thread, but we have had lots and lots of people here who've had akathisia. It's a common problem. It almost always eases up and usually goes away completely as far as I can tell from peoples self reports.

 

It can appear while taking a drug, when you first quit taking a drug, or months later after quitting when people get a delayed withdrawal reaction.

 

I don't have any experience with a permanent kind of akathisia. I have heard of tardive dyskinesia from drug damage being permanent, and certainly it's possible there could be a permanent type of tardive akathisia. But I've never encountered anyone first hand on these forums, in four years and many thousands of hours, who had permanent akathisia, and I've encountered many dozens or even a hundred over the years (haven't counted, but I've talked to a LOT of people over those years) who had akathisia and recovered from it. 

 

So I think there's probably a good chance, whatever your story is, that you will recover from your akathisia over time if you give your CNS the stability to heal itself. 

Rhi,

I did find one that may be permanent, a man from paxil progress. He says many of these permanent types just drop of the forums because they are not understood."

 

Below is what he said,

 

stan,french, 62 years, 12 years of paxil 20/10 mg, withdrawal of 11 months; no help from anyone, I found a U.S. forum and I understood what was happening to me on this forum it was explained that after two or three years we were healed, and we will had only our original problem, small occasional panic in my case, Today, after a slow weaning, I find myself in the theories of Dr. Shipko; After almost four and a half years out of any medication: I suffer from akathisia which broke late after stopping, as well as musculoskeletal problems, motorcoordination, unable to exercise, everything came and /or exacerbates the second year; I recognize myself in the damages mentioned by mr Shipko, I understand when he speaks of the danger of stopping these meds, even with a slow taper of the paxil. I was not very good, but since I stopped, I am disabled as Dr Shipko explains; if I had not stopped, I think I would be better than i am today; I think those who have taken 3 or 4 years are doing more easily, but for long periods, it is a different story; I know many cases like mine who go away from forums because they are not understood; I thank Dr. Shipko to talk as do a handful of psychiatrists and reporters; thanks to this people http://toxicantidepressants.fr/

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Muddles

See posts like this just scare me to death.

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chicken

See posts like this just scare me to death.

Muddles it scares me too. I think I should just stay on the drug but at my age and the way things are in our world, I believe a time may come where we cannot get the meds, ie natural disaster, war, umemployment etc. No being able to get it would force med users into cold turkey. I believe that many should try to get off of them anyway. Things are just too unpredictable. I am hoping the Lord Jesus will spare me from all this.

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Muddles

I have no choice to get off it. It screwed my life big time.

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chicken

I have no choice to get off it. It screwed my life big time.

Muddles,

If it has already messed you up, then you should get off of it. As of now I have no symptoms of anything as I only tried to get off the drug when I reached the lowest dose I could by breaking the pill and quitting.

 

I did find more stories of permanent akathesia

http://www.behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2013/06/18/akathisia/

http://www.cchr.org.uk/psychiatric-drugs/irreversible-effects/

 

I'm not trying to scare people. I just want to understand the fullness of what I may be getting into if I quit this drug and if it is worth it or not.

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Altostrata

chicken, you seem very resistant to believing what we're telling you here. This makes it pointless to spend time answering your questions.

 

You can find confirmation for anything you want on the Web. If you want to believe akathisia is permanent and you will inevitably develop it, that is your choice.

 

Stan, by the way, is a member here.

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chicken

chicken, you seem very resistant to believing what we're telling you here. This makes it pointless to spend time answering your questions.

 

You can find confirmation for anything you want on the Web. If you want to believe akathisia is permanent and you will inevitably develop it, that is your choice.

 

Stan, by the way, is a member here.

Hi Alto,

I'm sorry, I guess I just prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I've always had a one tract mind. I am hoping through God that none of that will come upon me but I just want to know if there are any options if it does.

 

My mom says to stay on the drug and then she says to not worry and cross the bridge when I get to it.

 

 

Did Stan get better? I sure hope so as I didn't see any up to date posts from him.

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Altostrata

Please look up Stan's posts for yourself.

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chicken

I did a search on Stan here and I feel so relieved that he is improving.

Stan's story was so sad Alto, If Stan can hang on, there is hope for everyone.

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chicken

Question

 

I was reading about Magnesium in another part of the forum.

Should I start using Magnesium long before I start my taper our should I wait for when I may have some withdrawal symptoms?

 

Thanks

 

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Petunia

Many people are deficient in magnesium.  There is no reason not to start taking some now, it may help with your current anxiety.  Start with a low dose and build up slowly.  If you start to get diarrhea, that means you are taking too much and need to cut down.

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WinningThrough

Akathisia isn't permanent. I have it at the moment but it's going to go away. From what I've been told, it usually lasts anything from a few days to 18 months/2 years. It burns itself out. I've read countless cases on various forums where people have had severe akathisia and made complete recoveries. Those people thought they would never get better but they did.

 

I think what we need to tell ourselves is that it ALWAYS goes away.

 

You don't have akathisia and there is no reason to believe you will get it. Not many people get it.

 

I've also heard of lots of cases of tardive dyskenesia that went away. It seems that isn't permanent either.

 

I've read of lots of people who have defied doctors and completely recovered from all sorts of things. People have healed from inoperable tumours and all sorts.

 

Why not seek out the success stories and leave the horror stories alone.

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chicken

Akathisia isn't permanent. I have it at the moment but it's going to go away. From what I've been told, it usually lasts anything from a few days to 18 months/2 years. It burns itself out. I've read countless cases on various forums where people have had severe akathisia and made complete recoveries. Those people thought they would never get better but they did.

 

I think what we need to tell ourselves is that it ALWAYS goes away.

 

You don't have akathisia and there is no reason to believe you will get it. Not many people get it.

 

I've also heard of lots of cases of tardive dyskenesia that went away. It seems that isn't permanent either.

 

I've read of lots of people who have defied doctors and completely recovered from all sorts of things. People have healed from inoperable tumours and all sorts.

 

Why not seek out the success stories and leave the horror stories alone.

Thanks WinningThrough.

I was just reading some of Peter Breggin's books and he spoke of some of his patients being permanent.

I will have to force myself to stop reading. It's almost like it turns in to some kind of OCD to read all this stuff.

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WinningThrough

It's ok, I've done this too. I've read all the horror stories but it just made me feel worse. Reading the success stories really helps. When people talk of it being permanent, they may have only studied a handful of people over a limited amount of time. After that limited time, perhaps all cases resolved.

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chicken

It's ok, I've done this too. I've read all the horror stories but it just made me feel worse. Reading the success stories really helps. When people talk of it being permanent, they may have only studied a handful of people over a limited amount of time. After that limited time, perhaps all cases resolved.

Winning,

It seems as if the drug as become an obsession to me. I think about it day and night. It's so scary that I'm enslaved to a chemical and what I will face trying to come off it. It's made it hard to work and do my job. My employer is aware of this. It seems like I can't have fun anymore because everywhere I go and everyone I talk to this drug is in the back of my mind and I haven't even started tapering yet!

 

None of this bothered me before I tried to get off the drug because then I though I could do it with no problems. I hope I can make it for the year to two year taper I may have to go through. I cannot handle anxiety too well. If I get the least bit of it it explodes and I can be non functional without the help of a benzo. I just wish I could get it off my mind for one minute.

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wulfgar

What helped me a bit was to have a plan. I wrote a plan in excel with every day in a column, the amount to take in one, and wrote diary entries in on column each day. When i became obsessive i transferred the thoughts back to "I'm following the plan", "I'm doing what can be done", "i'm sticking to the plan". Just before i did the next taper though i reevaluated my plan and maybe tweaked it slightly. Did i go to fast/slow? How did it go? What did i feel?

By fixating my thought on the plan, I'm doing what can be done, the turmoil in my brain lessened some.

 

Also, i scheduled worry/google time. When i were allowed to surf and look up stuff. On other times, when thoughts on googling stuff hit i wrote keywords down for use at my worry time.

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chicken

What helped me a bit was to have a plan. I wrote a plan in excel with every day in a column, the amount to take in one, and wrote diary entries in on column each day. When i became obsessive i transferred the thoughts back to "I'm following the plan", "I'm doing what can be done", "i'm sticking to the plan". Just before i did the next taper though i reevaluated my plan and maybe tweaked it slightly. Did i go to fast/slow? How did it go? What did i feel?

By fixating my thought on the plan, I'm doing what can be done, the turmoil in my brain lessened some.

 

Also, i scheduled worry/google time. When i were allowed to surf and look up stuff. On other times, when thoughts on googling stuff hit i wrote keywords down for use at my worry time.

Thanks wolf.

I know I haven't been able to laugh pretty much since all this happened. I wish I could be happy again. I've not started my taper nor met with Dr. Johnson yet and I don't feel right. With the Lord's help I am going to try to not read the bad stuff on the internet. I will continue to read my thread here.

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chicken

Unfortunately I started reading here again. It seems so hopeless with all these horror stories. No one really seems to get better. T I'm seriously thinking of just staying on the drug.

 

Please don't be angry at me for saying this, I just don't know what to do.

 

I'm still praying to God for guidance to stay on the med or try to go off.

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chicken

I'm sorry all please forgive me. I still want to try tapering when I see Dr. Johnson. Right now I still have so much anxiety that it is affecting my work and sleep. I'm taking a small amount of tranxene. I have anxiety all day and night. Sometimes a few hours of reprieve.  I tried a small amount of magnesium citrate today. I think it gave me the jitters. I had a 250mg gel capsule. I burst it open and took a coffee stick and took very small amounts. I tried to guess about 25 mg which is what Alto recommended.

 

I suspect Dr. Johnson will not want to start a taper until I get the anxiety under controll. Not sure how I'm going to do that. I've got to stop reading so much. Pray I can stop reading all the bad stuff out there on the internet and even here. It's so hard to do.

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chicken

Sometimes I think it would have been better to have taken a street drug. I believe they are easier to get off of and clinics to help you.

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Rhiannon

It's not even time to be making decisions about the Remeron yet, it seems to me. From your sig line it sounds like you're aware that you're having withdrawal symptoms from coming off Seroquel and Tranxene. Anxiety and obsessiveness are common emotional symptoms in withdrawal. I'm not sure why you're even thinking about Remeron right now. I'd recommend you take some time and just postpone even thinking about it, let alone making decisions.

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chicken

Rhi,

I've been off the seroquel and tranxene for over a year now with no withdrawals. My anxiety is coming from tapering down and quitting remeron too fast. I ended up in a stabilization clinic. However I'm so worried about not being able to get off. I'm only 43 and I can't fathom having to take something for 40 more years, if I live that long. And I think what will happen if I can't get the drug for some reason. Ever since I got out of the clinic with this experience this drug has been on my mind day and night.

 

I know it sounds crazy but I can't function now for worrying about all this and I haven't even started a taper or seen my new doc yet. My mom says that if I would stop reading all this bad stuff on the internet my anxiety may let up. She is right but it's so hard to do.

 

I thank you all for your suggestion. Sometimes I just have to write to you all just to vent a little. Thanks for putting up with me.

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Muddles

You are not in a good place anxiety wise to be withdrawing. You need to find a good therapist before doing so...someone who will support you once you start and throughout.

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chicken

Thank you muddles, your advice was a God send. I've been thinking about that. I  just made an appointment with a local anxiety clinic.

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chicken

I met with my new therapist today. He is psychologist not a psychiatrist. He is helping me sort through the causes of my original anxiety. I know he can't help with drugs but he told me to wait to see what Dr. Johnson said about tapering and then make another appointment with him. He will teach me some relaxation techniques.

 

He did ask me what I was planning to do about my original anxiety before I ever took a drug. Crippling anxiety has hit me in the past with no drugs so it is safe to assume that anxiety could come back for me that would have nothing to do with withdrawal.

 

Last night my mom and I did some singing to the Lord and some serious prayer. For the first time I was able to sleep without thoughts of the drug coming.. I praise Him for that. I will continue to need His power and strength to get through this. My mom got stung by a yellow jacket and had a reaction that put her in terrible pain. We were seriously praying for both of us.

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wulfgar
Hi Chicken,

 

I will try to give my view of some questions that appeared in Miami's thread, some addressed to me.  

 

"Dr Healy says mirtazapine is different to ssri's to withdraw from and basically said its very hard to come off. Doctors aren't aware of this at all and most think it's not addictive."

There are many different psych meds out there and they all affect many different neural signaling mechanisms in out brain and body, increasing or decreasing. Our brain and body adapts to these changes and when we reduce the drug dose new adaptations begin. Adapting to a dose reduction is usually harder as a reduction works almost like a reversed med. It seems that different people have different vulnerabilities and how hard it is to taper a med is mostly dependent on this. A person that normally is a great sleeper does not get insomnia problems reducing mirtazapine. Me, who always slept poorly am very sensitive to wd from mirtazapine. So, it is totally individual how easy or hard a drug is to withdraw from.

When we find we are vulnerable to dose reductions the best way to get off is to go slow. As slow as needed. Going slow enough will get anybody off without any withdrawals at all.

What can complicate this is when a drug is starting to cause side effects. When side effects gets to serious there might be no option but to taper fast or even c/t or change to other drug. Better to get of these drugs before side effects surface. I believe, in the long run, all these psych meds will cause side effects and that they will increase with time.

 


"Do you think Miami may have jumped too fast off the mirz too fast?" There is no way for me to know. I believe Miami made for the circumstances the best decision he could. 

 

"It almost seems like no matter how low the dose you jump from you still have crippling insomina and anxiety."

I think the best way around this is not to jump, if by jumping you mean a shortcut from the taper plan to get off early. Better then to taper slower at the end. Slow enough and I'm sure there is no crippling insomnia or anxiety. Low dose usually mean low sx risk, so why hurry at the end? (I had and still suffer from side effects from mirtazapine and that made me push my tapper as hard as possible.)

 

I think there is absolutely nothing to fear from tapering if you go slow enough. Start of mega slow then and build confidence as you go. Say 1% each month to start? Increase to 2% when that worked out ok. (1% is probably much less than the difference in drug amount between pills/brands and batches of pills)

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chicken

Wolfgar.

This morning I started heaving because I got so nervous over all this. Until i get the anxiety under control I cannot start to taper. However the anxiety come from worry of what will happen. I can't handle anxiety to well.

 

What I meant buy jumping off was that what dosage did Miami quit on. Maybe she should have tried dropping the dose some more before quitting.

 

My real fear is the late onset symptoms that appears to be so untreatable.

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chicken

Alto,

You are correct. Everybody tells me that, including my mom.

Not to hijack Hopefull's thread, but why does it seem to be so many get it?

 

Even if I got an extreme temporary case of it for a few months I don't how I could live with it. Back some years ago when I had an adverse reaction to prozac I got extreme anxiety that had me pacing the floors for about two months thinking I couldn't go on, that is how I got put in the hospital and stuck on this Remeron in the first place.

 

Like Shipko says there are too many unknowns. I tried to ask him, out of 100 people how many does he think gets it. He said he doesn't know because he only deals with folks after the get it. He says that for some it goes away and some he has know has not. I also asked him should I stay on the drug. He said that he could not answer that. Earlier in the phone call he said that he believed that I one shouldn't stay on these drugs. It's all confusing. I and my mom are praying for guidance on all this.

 

I will say that Magnesium has really helped with my present anxiety. If I work my way up to my max dose of Magnesium will that reduce most of the anxiety when I start tapering down to the low doses?

 

Also, when stopping Mirtz, does it always happen that withdrawal happens about a month later, like in Miami's case? Is it too late to reinstate after a month?

 

Alto, if you see fit, you may wish to move this over to my thread. Again, I don't want to hijack Hopefull's thread.

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Altostrata

I'm sorry you have these intrusive thoughts, chicken. I can't help you with them. I hope you don't mind if I don't answer your questions about this anymore, I have nothing to add.

 

Please do what you can NOT to continue to post about this particular worry of yours, particularly in other people's topics.

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