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☼ chicken: help I'm scared mirtazapine Remeron

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chicken

OK. I will keep that in mind.

 

I really do thank you guys for letting me vent though. This is so stressful. I'm glad you guys at least listen. Now you know how my mom feels. LOL.

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Petunia

Hi chicken,

I've been reading through your thread and other posts you have made and wanted to stop by and add my support.  If you don't have akathisia now, then its VERY unlikely you will get it in the future if you taper properly.  I've done a lot of reading here and have followed hundreds of cases and the only people I've seen who get akathisia are cold turkeys and too fast tapers and even then, it had eventually gone away.

 

I know that when we have anxiety, it really doesn't matter what's going on, we will find something to attach it to, until we learn how to manage it and stop it spiraling out of control.  CBT is very good at helping us to learn how to stop unhelpful, intrusive thoughts and replace them with more helpful ones.  This doesn't stop the initial anxiety, because that's part of life, but it stops it from progressing into ongoing fear and panic. I was happy to read that you saw a new therapist and he is helping you with relaxation, perhaps you could ask about cognitive approaches which work with changing thoughts and beliefs.

 

 

Like Shipko says there are too many unknowns. I tried to ask him, out of 100 people how many does he think gets it. He said he doesn't know because he only deals with folks after the get it. He says that for some it goes away and some he has know has not.

 

Also, when stopping Mirtz, does it always happen that withdrawal happens about a month later, like in Miami's case? Is it too late to reinstate after a month?

 

 

Dr. Shipko sees extreme cases, not people who find this site and do slow, safe tapers.  You have found us, we are helping you so that you can avoid being one of Dr. Shipko's difficult cases.

 

Miami1 has a complex history with multiple drugs, skipping doses and CTs, where as you are currently stable on 15mg.  If you taper slowly and carefully, you wont become unstable and wont have to think about reinstating.

 

But no, its not too late to reinstate after a month, many people are able to, but that's not something you need to think about because you are in a position to taper slowly and become drug free without having to experience bad withdrawal symptoms or nervous system destabilization. 

 

I think that once you have some therapy and have learned how to manage anxiety better, you will be in a good position to safely and successfully come off Remeron.

 

Petu.

 

 

 

 

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chicken

Thanks Petu,

I will see the therapist after I see my new pdoc about tapering. Since tapering will take a long time, I can learn the CBT.

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chicken

Found this on another forum, just putting her for my  future reference.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Guys -


Just wanted to put a note out there to say I was on Remeron from a week after I jumped off the benzos until more than 18 months total. I was able to dry cut as I healed, but I had to hold a LOT as I went because the benzo healing underneath was just far too strong to cut any faster.  The Remeron allowed me to sleep and protected me from a lot of the neuropathic pain.  I was able to be pain-free - and when I tried to cut it too much, the pain was unbearable.

I was nervous that the Remeron cuts were what was [...] my pain and dizziness as I cut - but that was not the case.  It was not the Remeron. As I healed from the benzos, I needed much less Remeron to get the same relief.  After I got to 3.75 mg (1/4th of my Rem pill) - I had the rest made into a liquid at a compounding pharmacy so that I didn't have to dry cut.  It was MONTHS getting from 3mg to .4 mg. And almost another year to get from .4 to .3 to .2 to .1.  to zero. It took me a very long [...] to ride the edge of the Remeron so that I could still sleep and heal from benzos. However, REMERON DID NOT hurt my healing. It did not prevent it.  I healed all along the way every step of the way.  Remeorn was just a helper and a crutch.

I wish I had someone to tell me it was okay to be on this drug and that I didn't need to worry about it interfering with healing.  It did not interfere. Getting off it required a slow taper and patience, but the liquid suspension made the cuts easy, accurate, and painless.  It was not the Remeron that I had a hard [...] with - it was benzos.  Cutting Remeron too quickly IS painful. But cutting slowing with a liquid suspension allowed me to listen to my body. The key to getting off the Remeorn was to realize how slow I needed to go given the fact that my brain was still healing from benzos. It took me much longer than I imagined it would have, and it took many months to go even go from the last .2mg to zero! But I did wonderfully and am sleeping easily on my own with no meds.

My best advice is to be patient.  If Remeron is [...] too painful a withdrwal, consider that it may be you are going to fast and that benzo healing is a long ordeal.  Have it made into a liquid when you are ready so that you can cut very small doses  accurately .

I had my doctor write a script for a compounding pharmacy to make the remeorn into liquid (like a cough syrup). The script was as follows:

“Remeron 1mg per 1ml liquid suspension”   

I had it done this way so that if I wanted to take 3mg, rather than try to cut the pill, I just took 3ml of the liquid. If I wanted to take 2.9mg, I took 2.9ml. The same amount in the pill is the amount in millileters in the liquid. This makes it easy to measure without having to do any math.

When I started liquid tapering, I did so from 3.75mg. So – in order to have enough liquid for a month’s worth of prescription, I had my doctor round up the daily dose to 4mg (for the label on the bottle). That way – the pharmacy could have a round number to work with. 4mg a day of Remeron meant 4ml a day.  4ml times 30 days in a month is 120ml.  Therefore – the bottle had 120ml of medicine in it. (I started by taking 3.75 and cut to 3.5, then 3 pretty quickly.  Then it took me a good while to get lower, and I had to start cutting more slowly. The good news is, they make VERY tiny syringes (down to the .01ml) and this allowed me any type of accurate cut I wanted to make. This came in especially handy at the very end when my cuts had to be very small to maintain sleep until I adjusted to each one.)

I doubt it would ever have been this long to get off Remeron if not for the enormity of benzo healing – but I am so glad to have had this medicine to cover me while I healed. I think that having a liquid suspension made is a great way to taper and allows you to be very accurate while listening to your body.

Don’t worry about forcing it or going too fast. I had to updose many times until I realized that it takes a good 1-2 weeks for the body to register a Remeron cut.  So it was smarter for me to cut and hold longer than I felt I needed to just to be sure I had truly adjusted before I cut again and suffered from going too fast.  I learned this through trial and error. 

Finally - whatever you do - INSIST that they use NO ALCOHOL to dissolve your Remeron tablets into suspension. Not even a little alcohol!  They can do it other ways and a compounding pharmacy knows how. They will suspend it into a solution like cough syrup that is shelf stable for a year - and it works beautifully. But no alcohol!

Hope this helps.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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wulfgar

I agree with most of the content. This is my personal opinion: I do not agree in using mirtazapine to compensate for a to rapid benzo taper. I think its an awful idea. Many stories including this one points to this. The author would probably have been med free sooner had he/she tapered the original drug as responsibly.

Adding dependency/addiction to one more drug when someone is already in withdrawal, there can be no rational for this. "Remeron did not hurt my healing". It sure did not help much when there were years of taper with reinstatements and wd:s. Many psychiatrist and md:s thinks mirtazapine is a candy to play with. Thats probably why they play with people like this.

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chicken

Wulfgar,

I just posted it for his liquid taper schedule.

 

I found it on benzo buddies. They have over 100 pages of people withdrawing from Mirtz. It appears to be very common to use Mirtz to help with benzo withdrawals.

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wulfgar

The liquid taper is sound.  

The use of mirtazapine for benso withdrawal comes from psychiatry and their solution to heap more dangerous drugs on people in pain. It is one more bad thing of all the bad things done with antidepressants. Im sorry chicken if I'm pushing on the mirtazapine benzo topic. The post just got me terrified that it could be read as a recommendation for using mirtazapine for benzo wd.

 

Here is one other possition on mirtazapine and benzo withdrawal.

http://www.bcnc.org.uk/drugs.html

Read the part on antidepressants.

 

I have seen many stories where prior benzo use has made mirtazapine harder to taper. There is a need to go much slower. I do not want to scare any one. I just can not be silent in regards to the practice of using mirtazapine for benzo wd. I took benzos during my use of mirtazapine and it was hard to get of mirtazapine but i did. Its possible. The slow taper advice you posted applies.

 

My thoughts on the medical mechanisms involved and what happens.

1. Someone tapers to fast or ct benzo and gets withdrawals. Recovery from ct or fast taper can take a long time. Some gets protracted wd lasting a very long time.

2. A doctor ads Mirtazapine.  Mirtazapine reduces stress and anxiety and helps with sleep by other mechanisms and so it seem to help. Benzo withdrawal is now somewhat "camouflaged" or masked.

3. The person is now still trying to recover from a ct or fast taper. Nothing is changed.  The GABA receptors is still so down-regulated that they have a very hard time to heal.

4. Trying to taper mirtazapine now uncovers the camouflaged/masked benzo wd. Mirtazapine has not healed anything at all. Now there is a compounded problem with mirtazapine wd and unhealed benzo wd. They add to each other as both has anxiety and other wd symptoms in common.

 

At point 2 is were doctors and research stops. Directives and policies is usually based on short duration trials only. There are many antidepressants who have never undergone long term testing. There is no science/papers on long term outcomes for this regimen.  Adding mirtazapine is a nightmarish experiment!

 

Sorry again for the rant!

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chicken

Thanks wolf.

I just don't know how I will handle the withdrawal with out something to help the anxiety. I can get out of control with anxiety very easily and stop eating and get suicidal. I stopped eating for a month with my last anxiety and lost down to 100 lbs. I know people say that you shouldn't take a benzo during withdrawal but If i have to I have to.

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wulfgar

Hi,

Anxiety can be hard to cope with! As you mentioned you are seeing a therapist and are going for CBT. Thats good. Had a period of CBT myself and it was helpful. My take on anxiety is to get as many tools as possible for it. CBT, mindfulness, meditation, breathing, yoga, mind body exercises etc. Whatever works, practice those, often! When anxiety hits for me it was different tools that helped on different occasions. Anxiety can be slippery like soap.

Drugs can be, in the short run and during extreme circumstances necessary but i think that, in the long run, its the non drug tools thats wins the day (healthy diet and low intensity exercise included).

 

I did not have anxiety before these drugs but i know now how bad it can be. I hope that you can find some good tools to manage it!

Best

Wulfgar

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chicken

As you all know I've been worried sick about this drug and tapering.

 

I started taking Magnesium citrate about 6 days ago. I popped a 250mg capule and scraped out a little. Over time I have increased it to about half the capsule. I'm starting to feel a little strange even though it knocked out the anxiety. Do you think the Mag is causing my strange feelings. Should I cut back?

 

Thanks

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Altostrata

Why don't you take half a capsule on the same schedule every day for a week and see what your symptom pattern may be?

 

Are you keeping notes on paper about your daily drugs and symptom pattern?

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chicken

Hi Alto,

Some of the strangeness has dissappeared. I also started my montly cycle this week. That may have contributed to the strangeness feeling.

I've also noticed this past week that I wake up at 3 am with anxiety and cannot go back to sleep. The anxiety disappears soon after I wake. If I try to drift back to sleep I feel the anxiety again. It all dissappears upon re-awakening. Is this cortisol?

My pdoc told me not to take any supplements because they could interfere with the meds. I wonder if the Mag is causing any of this. I've have missed work for 2 days because of this waking up so early.

I'm afraid I"m going to lose my job from withdrawal and I haven't started tapering yet.

 

Keep in mind that I'm still on 15 mg of Remeron and haven't started tapering yet. If I'm already having this kind of insomnia what I'm I going to do when I taper. Remeron is notorious for rebound insomnia. I hope I haven't ruined my brain with this drug.

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wulfgar

The 3 am wakings is so much pointing and screaming at mirtazapine. How long have you been stable on 15 mg mirtazapine? It happened to me and many others. It will settle as you get stable. Im still waking up but without adrenaline/anxiety and drift of to sleep directly again. If you taper slowly it will not affect this phenomenon. Human sleep consists of deep sleep cycles the first hours and then more shallow sleep cycles the rest of the night. Every one almost wakes and some wakes in between. What is now happening for you is that the almost waking has become waking. The waking sets of some hormones. Many people gets the waking phenomenon without drugs as they age. Its annoying but nothing harmful. Drug withdrawal can make the waking response more strong.

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Altostrata

Don't take magnesium at night if you think it's contributing to your sleep problems.

 

Are you keeping note of your daily symptom pattern ON PAPER? I'm very frustrated having to repeat myself.

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chicken

Posted this in hopfull's thread as a response to her. But it is also my update.

 

My anxiety got so out of control I had to go back into the stabilization center. My doc upped the mirtzs to 30mg, the tranxene (3.75mg) to 3x a day and 50mg of seroquel.

It's about a week later and I'm off the seroquel.

 

I would wake exactly 5 hours after the mirtz no matter what. I have stablelized some and sleep a little longer than 5 hours sometimes. The tranxene helps with the anxiety.

I'm now down to 22.5 mirtz and 3.75 tranxene 3x a day.

 

My pdoc said he would put me in the hospital and change the mirtz to something else if that is what I really wanted. I told him my anxiety was all about the mirtz and nothing else. I don't know if it is wise to change up. I just read through 107 pages of a mirtz withdrawel thread at the bb forum. There is so little success coming off mirtz.

 

I see the pdoc again tomorrow. I may let him put me in the hospital but I told him there is no way i'm coming of mirtz cold turkey like they tried to do in the crisis stabilaztion center. They tried me on lexapro and I rejected it after one dose. I told him no more SSRIs.

 

Angel over on bb was one of the ones who sucessfully got of mirtz but she had to cross taper to effexor. I don't really want to touch effexor.

 

I finally saw Dr. Johnson. He says he has good success with getting people of A/Ds but has never tapered anyone off of Remeron. That dashed my hopes a little. He doesn't know much about it. I spoke with Dr. Shipko and he says he's never tapered anyone off Remeron. I may try to cross taper to something else. Anything but Remeron. I hear some of the old trycyclics are easier to get off of than these new ones.

 

Dr. Johnson says his worst cases are those on effexor, pritiq and paxil. Dr. Johnson said that I and only on other of his patients was this scared about getting of a med. Even he told my mom when I went out of the room that I needed to be more stable in order to taper. I don't know if I'll ever be stable because all I ever think about is the drugs and that's it. I hate that my benzo was upped but what can I do for now. Benzos don't scare me a much a remeron.

 

I will pray that the Lord will give my regular PDoc wisdom. I may switch to something else and taper it I don't think my doc really knows what to do with me anymore. He wanted me to try Brintellex, brand new SSRI just approved this year. No way am I trying a new drug. Who knows what the effects of that could be. A drug needs to be out a number of years before I touch it.

 

Mom thinks I'm going to crack up over this. I just read all day on the internet about it. She says she is so tired of hearing about this drug.

I think I'm depressed now as I have no interest in anything any more. I went to the car show last night and though about withdrawal and the drug some while I was there. I can hardly laugh anymore. I don't seem to have many emotions. I told my pdoc that ever since I tried the cold turkey from May of this year I haven't felt quite right anymore but I think a lot of it was my own anxieties and reading all this bad stuff. I'm my own worst enemy sometimes.

 

I told my mom tonight, and we prayed together about it, that I was just going to have to bite the bullet and try to wean down. Maybe when I get to that low critical dose it may be more safe to cross taper to something else. Who knows?

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dalsaan

Chicken,

 

I have gone from a high of 45 mg of Mirtz down to 1.5 ml (equivalent of 1.5mg).   It has taken me 1.5 years of steady tapering.  I believe I will come off fully and will recover fully (in time)   I have always believed this.

 

You, have never believed this and I think unless you can get to a better place you are better of staying on it.    Reading 107 pages to confirm your pre-existing position is not putting you in a good head space to withdrawal.

 

Dalsaan

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Muddles

I'm sorry chicken but you're never going to get out of this anxiety cycle until you stop reading and searching the web. The more you search the more benzo's you're are going to have to take.

 

Take some time away. I recommend the Charles linden method for anxiety. I really believe I would have been ok doing his method before any toxic drugs were given to me. Anxiety is a vicious cycle and you will not brake it by fuelling it.

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chicken

Just stopping in to give you guys an update.

I'm probably not going to read for a while because like Muddles says in the post before this one, it only fuels anxiety.

 

I realize now that all my OCD reading and anxiety were not mine but was caused by the remeron reinstatment. It was steadily getting worse and I had to take a month off work. I became suicidal on mirtz. I had to make a decision albeit one that most would not agree with here. The risk of losing my job and my insurance and perhaps my life , my doctor put me in the hospital to get me off the mirtz. He told me I would have not withdrawals. As you know I didn't believe him. However, I went to God (Jesus) in my prayers looking for wisdom. Proverbs 3 popped into my mind to "lean not on my own understanding".

 

The mirtz was only letting me get 4 to 5 hours of sleep no matter what with constant anxiety. When I went into the hospital , doc gave me the lowest dose of zyprexa and cross tapered to pamelor an old tricyclic. I chose the tricyclic because I cannot take an SSRI nor an SNRI.  He never got me up to the effective dose of pamelor.

Anyway I was already on a benzo so he made no adjustments there.

 

The third night in the hospital he pulled the 15mg of mirtz. I was scared to death. Anyway when I first tried to sleep without the mirtz, everytime I would drift to sleep I would be jolted back awake. While on the mirtz this happened after about the 4 hour  of sleep but off the mirtz it was happening before I fell asleep.  After three times of this I finally fell asleep. For the first time in three months I was able to get more that 4-5  hours of sleep. The anxiety greatly subsided. Night two, the falling asleep jolts were also starting to subside. Sleep was sound. Third night woke up with high anxiety about 2 am. The doc had put aside some emergency klonopin just in case. I took one. Went soundly to sleep and woke peacfully with no anxiety . Fouth night feel asleep fine no bad stuff happened.. Anxiety dissapeared completely after the fourth night. I went in the hospital on Aug 5 and got out Aug 13 with no problems.

 

The next week after leaving the hospital I went back to work and I am doing fine. No withdrawals so far.

 

For the first time since I got on this forum I am NOW finally stable enough to taper. It's almost unbelievable.

 

I am now on 2.5 mg of zyprexa, 40 mg of pamelor and still on the tranxene 3.75 mg 3 x per day.

 

I am so thankful to be stable even though it went against everything taught here. It was a tough decision but I was suicidal on this drug. When I saw the tears in my mom's eyes I knew I had to do something.

 

I believe I did the right thing, however only time will tell.

 

I see my regular doctor tommorrow. I will try tapering the zyprexa first, the antidepressant second and then the benzo.

I am sleeping soundly 8 plus hours and no anxiety.

 

I probably will not read too much on here until after I have tapered off a few more of the drugs.

It's not that I don't want to hear what you all have to say, it just that I can be scared very easily and don't want to mess up my success so far by adding my own anxiety.

 

I'm still seeing Dr. Johnson in Asheville, he said he would have tapered me over six months butI knew I couldn't last six months. So I'm working with both docs now and hopefully will be off the rest of this stuff soon.

 

Anyway, I'm stable and all my emotions have come back from the mirtz/remeron fiasco.

 

Keep me in your prayers, as I believe God  has brought me this far, He will help me finish. I had lot's of people praying for me.  I pray that He will help each one here on this forum.

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chicken

9/11/14 Update: Dropped the Tranxene down to 7.5mg a day Friday Sept 4. Still going and very stable. Will see doc on the 30th, hoping to start with the zyprexa taper.

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andy

9/11/14 Update: Dropped the Tranxene down to 7.5mg a day Friday Sept 4. Still going and very stable. Will see doc on the 30th, hoping to start with the zyprexa taper.

You will be fine getting off zyprexa chicken,say a prayer for you tonight

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chicken

Thank you Andy, I truly appreciate prayers from anyone. I believe that has helped me more than anything.

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WinningThrough

Good luck, chicken.

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Altostrata

Very stable is very good!

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Muddles

You'll be fine chicken.

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chicken

Thank you all for the encouragement. I really think that when I reinstated the Remeron I would have been fine if Cipro (antibiotic) had not been added at the same time. I checked Cipro against Remeron at the drug interaction site. There were no known reactions, but my gut feeling tells me that Cipro did something to the Remeron in my case.

 

I'm glad to be rid of the Remeron but now I have to taper what I'm own now. I have a feeling this will work out much better.

 

You all are in my prayers. I will keep you updated.

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Petunia

I checked Cipro against Remeron at the drug interaction site. There were no known reactions, but my gut feeling tells me that Cipro did something to the Remeron in my case.

 

 

Serious adverse reactions to fluoroquinolone antibiotics (FQs) have been reported in medical journals and to the FDA since the 1980s.

 

see:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1126-taking-antibiotics/?p=88880

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chicken

Thanks Petu for the info. I figured Cipro did something to my Remeron. My mom recently had to go to the hospital and I made sure she knew not to touch any of the newer antibiotics. They put her on one of the old ones and she is fine.

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chicken

9/24/2014 - update: reduced tranxene down to 5.6mg last night. Still stable.  Will hold this for a while as the Doc may reduce the zyprexa next week.

 

Hope everyone is improving. You all are in my prayers

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cymbaltawithdrawal5600

Hi chicken,

 

I would be concerned that you made a 25% drop after changing meds recently. Way too soon and might catch up to you, especially if you follow the Dr. recommendation too and start reducing another med. Your body is just starting to get used to the new meds. Is he knowledgeable about tapering?

 

Protracted wd is not something to mess with. Have you read the 3KIS topic?

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WinningThrough

Good luck Chickie.

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chicken

Just checking in.

I'm on half of my original dose of zyprexa and pamelor. The pamelor was causing my blood pressure to up to very bad levels. I'm taking a very small dose of blood pressure medicine and it's keeping my blood pressure stable.

 

Overall I'm still stable.

 

My prayers are still with you all.

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tgirl

Hi chicken,

How are you doing?

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WinningThrough

Glad you're feeling stable, chicken.

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chicken

Thank you guys,

I know I made a large cut in my AD but the blood pressure was becoming a real concern for both me and my doc. It got high enough to where I was feeling it in my head and my friend wanted me to go to the ER. I did but I really didn't need to go to the ER. I feel much better with it under control. I didn't want to have a stroke.

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tgirl

Are you off remeron now? What meds are you on?

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chicken

Tgirl,

I've been off Remeron since Aug 2014. I tried to come off before at about 3.75 mg and had severe withdrawal. I went into crisis rehab and was reinstated but at the same time I was given Cipro antibiotic. Nothing was right after that. I believe Cipro did something to the Remeron and I suffered for about 3 months and it kept getting worse.

 

I was getting suicidal and was hospitalized. My doc bridged me over to zyprexa and pamelor. I was already on tranxene. All the bad remeron stuff went away a few days after being bridged. I don't think I could have gotten off the remeron any other way. At least I am stable now.  Of course I don't know how tapering from pamelor and zyprexa will be but I don't think it could be any worse than remeron.

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