Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system

[LoveandLight]

Yes I have a question. Which Buddhist meditation techniques did you use specifically?

 

Thank you.

[MostlyWater]

I used Samatha and Vipassana meditation. I go back and forth between the two usually. I start off with Samatha to calm my mind and then I will go into Vipassana if it feels right. 

http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/articles/item/1203-samatha-and-vipassana-meditation.html more info here

[Risperdrawlin]

Hi, I meditate daily for 10 minutes and it has helped me a lot. I do mindfulness meditation. I sit and count my breaths up to 10, then start again at 1 for 10 minutes ("In-1, In-2..." and so on). I say "in" in my head as I inhale and the number as I exhale. This script helped me learn to meditate: http://practicingmentalillness.blogspot.com/2013/03/how-to-begin-meditating.html. I recommend this book to learn how to meditate, we followed the program for a meditation class I took in school: http://www.amazon.com/Real-Happiness-Meditation-28-Day-Program/dp/0761159258# . If you have any questions feel free to ask.

 

Just to clear something up, meditation is not about escapism/ is not meant to be a form of escape, it is about being present with yourself and your experience. If you happen to feel better while you are meditating that is fine. Escapism is just about the antithesis of mindfulness meditation. If you have any questions about this feel free to ask.

[Petunia]

Similar topics merged.

[Purplestars22]

I enjoy meditating it is very helpful and relaxing. I started meditating this summer of this year but had to stop because of a bad wave. I hope to start meditating soon though. When I meditate it is from 10-20minutes. I really like the guided meditation from Eckhart Tolle on YouTube.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n5ZYBdvEd_E

[Altostrata]

bump

[LoveandLight]

Oh this is explained beautifully.

[Muddles]

Sorry - I've tried to upload a meditation link and I'm struggling!

[ten0275]

i used to repeat the words of this 35 second clip as a mantra when the waves were really pounding me. it helped. early in withdrawal, sitting meditation was not possible for me. i just couldn't do it. i did not have an open line of communication with my compromised brain and i also needed to move my body. so repeating certain phrases were helpful. usually, i would repeat this while walking. it's a nice message.

 

hang in there.

 

dave

 

<video>

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Muddles,

 

If you are using Internet Explorer on a regular computer or laptop, you cannot embed a youtube video, it just doesn't work. You can do it, however, from chrome or firefox.

[JanCarol]

That is an excellent, concise, and uplifting 35 seconds, Ten!

 

I would like to encourage people that if you can only meditate for a minute - only meditate for a minute.  A minute a day is still a regular practice, and there will be benefit in direct relation to your dedication to this practice.

 

When hubby got cancer we started at 5 minutes, and when that felt "short," we added a minute.  It took almost 2 years to build up to a comfortable 15 minutes.  It's stayed there for over a year.

 

Long meditative retreats are probably not wise for folks in withdrawal.  In fact, many "spiritual crises" are exploded at such retreats, I've read more than a few stories of folks whose psych drug journey was escalated there, because it was difficult to return to reality after the retreat blasted them open.   If someone tells you that you must meditate for more than 20 minutes at a time, or must meditate more than 2x a day - this can be hazardous.  It's like taking a hypnotic drug.  

 

Like all things, moderation is a good thing.  15 minutes a day helps most people.  15-20 minutes 2x a day is an excellent practice.  More than that, and your brain starts to flatten (my opinion, from cult experience), and you may suffer cognitive difficulties, especially if you are doing this on your own.

 

Unless, of course, you are a monk, and you have a teacher who will guide you every step of the way.  Not many of us are in that situation, though.  Somehow, I suspect the monks avoid the psych drug thing.

 

On the other hand "daily mindfulness" - washing the baby Buddha when you do dishes, or tasting - really tasting - your food as you eat.  Or really feeling your pet as you stroke their fur, or minding your breath as you walk - daily mindfulness has unlimited potential for waking you up to the joys of life.  I cannot recommend it enough.

 

My favorite meditations are actually active:  walking.  yoga.  martial arts.  Even when hubby is meditating, I do not do breath meditation or silent meditation - I do balancing on my fit-ball.  It's still a meditation!  When you concentrate, and mind every aspect of what you are doing and there is no room for other thought or emotion.  When you are through with those meditations, you are energized, cleansed, and you might have learned something new.  

[PatriciaVP]

Recent research has shown a strong link betweven meditation and neuroplasticity.

[manymoretodays]

I'm glad you commented on this thread Patricia VP and brought it to my attention...........so posting just to mark for myself(I do know how to follow posts but this method seems to work best for me).

 

I liked whoever mentioned the meditation while walking as for me.........have tried the sitting form with some difficulty but not yet ruling it out.

 

And then also..........is it possible to do meditation at other times of the day than in the morning and still achieve good results?  Just interested in opinions I think as I have never been much of a morning person generally.........pre psychoactive medications, during, and while in withdrawal.  Or would it make sense for me to try and discipline in some morning mediation..........even if it involves just watching a video?

 

Back when I tried sitting meditation while medicated.........I would always sleepily kind of drift off was the main problem.

[PatriciaVP]

While reading an article on different therapies and their use of mindfulness to treat various illnesses, I came across this one idea that binds them together:

 

"Thoughts are not facts and do not have to control actions"

 

I know that's an obvious statement, but I have a very hard time remembering it when in the throws of emotional distress. Practicing mindfulness and meditation might help me remember.

[Tomash]

Thank you for all valuable comments here, I was making notes

 

I would like to contribute to the debate as I have some strong experiences regarding meditation. In 2015 I unsuccesfully withdraw from all meds. Part of the problem was a kind of spiritual emergence/crisis, because I had taken panchkarma in India before. The ayurvedic doctor recommended me meditate 1h a day, which was too much. I also did ashtanga yoga. I had some strong spiritual extasis - and then psychosis soon with other withdrawal symptoms.

 

Some months later on I met an ayurvedic practitioner, quite famous, who told me that most panchkarmas in India are horrible while in case of normal people they are ineffective but in case of serious problems like psychosis/withdrawal it usually makes things worse. He recommended (apart from other tips) me to do just concentration technique - to focus on a candle, so  learn how to differentiate between what is outside and what is happening just in my brain.

 

I did the practice, but I received a recommendation from a yoga teacher to do "Kundalini yoga for complex psychiatric disorders". I was looking for some more gentle kind of yoga then ashtanga is and gave it a try. But Kundalini yoga is rather a sitting meditation technique, extremely powerfull. In few weeks of daily practice i went to an extasy and together with other problems I ended up in a hospital with quite serious paranoia.

 

I believe my paranoia is part of the withdrawel, actually, as I wasnt paranoid at all when I was first medicated. But nontheless I am sensitive now and tantric Kundalini wasnt a good idea. So I reminded myself of the fact, which is repeated by various alternative psychologists (like Cassani, or various transpersonal psychologists) that it really matters what kind of meditation it is for folks like me.

 

I would say, that Kundalini and tantrick practice are very dangerous for us. Then there are less but problematic too practices like vipassana meditation. I heard many monks saying that vipassana is quite powerfull and can worsen depressive or anxious symptoms, especially on retreats, as was pointed out here. Meditations which use witnessing and visualisations are generally more problematic. What is always described as safe are concentration meditations - for example classic yoga focus meditation with candle, zazen or to be mindfull during the day, or body scans/yoganidra. I respect that everyone is different and some people may do even Kundalini yoga, but this a pattern I found repeating.

 

I hope I contributed somehow to the debate though I am medicated now (while lowering the dose)...

[samanthaelizabeth]

On 7/9/2011 at 1:46 PM, Altostrata said:

No, it's because nobody can "control" their mind. The best you can do is observe your thoughts and feelings and then let go of them, go back to blank.

 

The "letting go" is where you build muscles in practice.

 

So your thoughts drifting in and out are entirely normal, that's what they're supposed to do. That's the monkey mind part, it cannot be controlled. The more you put effort into controlling it, the more it will jump around and distract you.

 

Just relax and observe your monkey mind. Let it go where it will, don't try to guide it, fasten on it, or push it away -- just maintain slow, regular breathing and enjoy the relaxation in the spaces between thoughts.

 

A lot of people find real insight, and self-acceptance, as they observe the travels of the monkey mind.

This is very good!  Thank you!

[robcbar1]

I've been trying to meditate throughout my withdrawal.  Every time I truly relax and start to let go, I get a jolt of acidic adrenaline which sends me into an anxious state.  The same goes for napping.  So for all you veterans, how did you meditate without your dysfunctional autonomic nervous system alerting you to invalid threats (such as rest)?  Thanks.     

[NobodySpecial]

5 hours ago, robcbar1 said:

I've been trying to meditate throughout my withdrawal.  Every time I truly relax and start to let go, I get a jolt of acidic adrenaline which sends me into an anxious state.  The same goes for napping.  So for all you veterans, how did you meditate without your dysfunctional autonomic nervous system alerting you to invalid threats (such as rest)?  Thanks.     

 

Hey, I've actually heard a lot about this and listened to this being discussed in various teacher training lectures.

 

I can only speak for myself and speculate, so please, take everything I saw with a pinch of salt and see for yourself whether it works!

 

Anyway, I've heard stories of people with extreme PTSD who have found it almost impossible, and probably counter-productive to meditate. When you're sitting in meditation, you do drop into less "conscious" parts of mind and this can bring up old traumas, and possibly even bring things up in a way that re-traumatises you. It can be a deep practice, and I'm hearing more and more now of people who are having episodes of psychosis and intense mental distress after sitting retreats etc.

 

I think that if there is discomfort, and it's unbearable, it might be best to try something like I'll write below. I've had periods where it's intensely uncomfortable to sit because of what's going on in my body, and sitting just creates a feedback loop that makes it worse and worse. It's hard though, because mindfulness is so vogue right now and I think that the dangerous aspects of the practice aren't being explored or spoken about as much yet.

 

What has been advised, if you can't sit (and probably shouldn't, especially if it's sending shocks through your nervous system), is to try something like walking meditation. You can do it formally or informally. I prefer informally, and focus mindfully as a I walk around the park. Giving my full attention to each individual step. I've found that this down-regulates my nervous system, as focusing on each step and the weight of my foot, I'm grounding my awareness and becoming more embodied again.

 

What do you think?

[robcbar1]

9 hours ago, NobodySpecial said:

 

Hey, I've actually heard a lot about this and listened to this being discussed in various teacher training lectures.

 

I can only speak for myself and speculate, so please, take everything I saw with a pinch of salt and see for yourself whether it works!

 

Anyway, I've heard stories of people with extreme PTSD who have found it almost impossible, and probably counter-productive to meditate. When you're sitting in meditation, you do drop into less "conscious" parts of mind and this can bring up old traumas, and possibly even bring things up in a way that re-traumatises you. It can be a deep practice, and I'm hearing more and more now of people who are having episodes of psychosis and intense mental distress after sitting retreats etc.

 

I think that if there is discomfort, and it's unbearable, it might be best to try something like I'll write below. I've had periods where it's intensely uncomfortable to sit because of what's going on in my body, and sitting just creates a feedback loop that makes it worse and worse. It's hard though, because mindfulness is so vogue right now and I think that the dangerous aspects of the practice aren't being explored or spoken about as much yet.

 

What has been advised, if you can't sit (and probably shouldn't, especially if it's sending shocks through your nervous system), is to try something like walking meditation. You can do it formally or informally. I prefer informally, and focus mindfully as a I walk around the park. Giving my full attention to each individual step. I've found that this down-regulates my nervous system, as focusing on each step and the weight of my foot, I'm grounding my awareness and becoming more embodied again.

 

What do you think?

Thanks Nobody.  This is awesome advice and I'm going to try it.  I find that walking outside sometimes freaks me out because of the derealization and sensitivity to every little sound but I will try to power through it and focus on my steps.  Thanks again. 

[NobodySpecial]

Hey @robcbar1,

 

I'm glad you found it useful

 

From what I'm hearing (reading) you saying, it sounds like going outside might be a little too challenging. I think that meditation is more of a gentle practice, and if you're finding yourself having to "power through" at all, it might be worth looking into some alternatives.

 

My teacher had Bipolar, and he had to stop meditating because he found that it further destabilised him. There's an article that I'll link to that has some information you might find useful - http://www.new-synapse.com/aps/wordpress/?p=350. 

 

Have you ever looked into trauma / somatic exercises? David Berceli has some great work available online and even if you haven't had a particular trauma, it's wonderful work in soothing the nervous system. There's also a great guy online called Benny Fergusson who runs http://movementmonk.xyz/author/benny-fergusson/, he teaches a somatic practice that is really beneficial to a nervous system stuck in high alert.

 

This is a topic that I find really interesting, and if you want to talk about it more, feel free to shoot me a message.

 

All the best with your practice!

 

 

 

 

[robcbar1]

10 hours ago, NobodySpecial said:

Hey @robcbar1,

 

I'm glad you found it useful

 

From what I'm hearing (reading) you saying, it sounds like going outside might be a little too challenging. I think that meditation is more of a gentle practice, and if you're finding yourself having to "power through" at all, it might be worth looking into some alternatives.

 

My teacher had Bipolar, and he had to stop meditating because he found that it further destabilised him. There's an article that I'll link to that has some information you might find useful - http://www.new-synapse.com/aps/wordpress/?p=350. 

 

Have you ever looked into trauma / somatic exercises? David Berceli has some great work available online and even if you haven't had a particular trauma, it's wonderful work in soothing the nervous system. There's also a great guy online called Benny Fergusson who runs http://movementmonk.xyz/author/benny-fergusson/, he teaches a somatic practice that is really beneficial to a nervous system stuck in high alert.

 

This is a topic that I find really interesting, and if you want to talk about it more, feel free to shoot me a message.

 

All the best with your practice!

 

 

 

 

Thanks so much.  I'm currently reading "The Body Keeps The Score" to better understand other options.  Anything that can bring me back into my body would be helpful.  My WD-induced derealization is so intense at times, I barely feel alive.  Either that or I'm convinced I've gone crazy.  I went for a walk this morning and counted my steps, watching each foot hit the ground.  I can't believe that this is what's become of my life but I'm going to let it beat me.    

 

[NobodySpecial]

I love that book, I have it on my bookshelf.

 

I read something once from a Middle Eastern poet who said that the crack or wound is how the light gets in. Counting steps is so weird, but we are so blessed to have touched this deep suffering.

 

Any trauma related work is so great. Sometimes I take a hot bath and just practice self soothing and self holding.

 

Always here for you in any capacity possible

[JackieDecides]

On 3/24/2016 at 7:10 AM, PatriciaVP said:

While reading an article on different therapies and their use of mindfulness to treat various illnesses, I came across this one idea that binds them together:

 

"Thoughts are not facts and do not have to control actions"

 

I know that's an obvious statement, but I have a very hard time remembering it when in the throws of emotional distress. Practicing mindfulness and meditation might help me remember.

 

 

I love this quote so much.  I also love this thread. I think I am well enough to do "regular" meditation, where you just sit and I'm going to start today. 

[DogLover]

when im at my worst, all i can do is walk. sometimes ill go for an hour and at a certain point, i get so physically exhausted that my mind kinda turns to jello.

 

sometimes other forms of meditation, like mindfulness, helps and other times it aggitates me.

[papaloapan]

Wish I could, but I can't because one adverse effect of the psychiatric drugs I'm tapering is having thoughts that never stop, either voices or parts of songs that keep repeating, not even 1 second of silence the whole day, 24/7 365

[Shep]

An interesting article from Harvard on mindfulness meditation: 

 

When science meets mindfulness

[Nevertoolate]

Can I please get some advice on the best meditation to help heal/balance the damaged brain. I still feel like my brain is locked in the negative mode. I keep seeing some about alpha waves, binaural beats and different megahertz but I don't understand it all.

I have the Insight Timer app.

Thanks in advance for any input.

[Mary66]

On 7/9/2011 at 3:46 PM, Altostrata said:

No, it's because nobody can "control" their mind. The best you can do is observe your thoughts and feelings and then let go of them, go back to blank.

 

The "letting go" is where you build muscles in practice.

 

So your thoughts drifting in and out are entirely normal, that's what they're supposed to do. That's the monkey mind part, it cannot be controlled. The more you put effort into controlling it, the more it will jump around and distract you.

 

Just relax and observe your monkey mind. Let it go where it will, don't try to guide it, fasten on it, or push it away -- just maintain slow, regular breathing and enjoy the relaxation in the spaces between thoughts.

 

A lot of people find real insight, and self-acceptance, as they observe the travels of the monkey mind.

I’m not able to let my thoughts drift by like clouds…they just stay there and ruminate ruminate over and over even with guided meditations:/

[Hilly]

Hi,

 

is anyone here finding they can access the benefits of meditation in spite of having anhedonia?

 

I meditate and have been suggesting this to my son as a way to help him to soothe and regulate his nervous system.  The most difficult symptom my son is experiencing is anhedonia - a complete loss of the ability to feel positive emotion whilst being left with all of the negative.  I was hoping that developing a meditation practice may help my son to have more control over his nervous system, but also might help him to integrate what has happened to him into his life going forward in a healthful way - but I'm not sure if it might be really frustrating to try if you have anhedonia.

 

I might post this question in the anhedonia thread too.

 

Hilly

[Pidgeon]

On 12/23/2016 at 12:54 PM, Tomash said:

I would say, that Kundalini and tantrick practice are very dangerous for us.

It is VERY IMPORTANT to talk about the dangers of meditation.

 

Do NOT meditate too much (1 hour or more is plenty too much) if you have posture problems, schizophrenia or bipolar. Posture problems such as from hunched back or weakness in depression will lead you to putting pressure on your internal organs as you meditate sitting. (This advice is from the book "Three pillars of Zen".) With schizophrenia, you are at a higher risk of psychosis after 1 hour and more. (This advice is from the experience of Redditors.)

 

Do NOT meditate after you've had spiritual trouble. Get assistance from a good teacher / guide instead.

 

Do get educated on the topic of Kundalini if you wish to meditate regularly.

 

Sadly I do not know anything about withdrawal in this area.

[Pidgeon]

On 7/16/2022 at 11:55 AM, Hilly said:

is anyone here finding they can access the benefits of meditation in spite of having anhedonia?

 

It should work fine. At worst, you will get little benefit. At best, meditation might bypass their anhedonia and give them relaxation and pleasure despite anhedonia. Though, he may feel very little motivation to sit regularly when not feeling any positive feelings. This is based my personal experience with myself and my nervous system only and needs caution. The benefits of meditation are related to anhedonia in that I believe both are related to the function of dopamine, but meditation goes a lot further than just that.

 

Best, Pidgeon.

[Pidgeon]

In fact, it may be better not to meditate at all. You are worried about chemical modification of the brain, but are you not worried about spiritual modification of the brain? You've been warned, so I hope you consider my words.