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Neurotoxins - contributing to lack of healing?


Janie
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In my self-education on Lyme disease (diagnosed by Igenex Labs), I am learning a lot about neurotoxins.  We are all exposed to toxins every day.  Some people's bodies are better at disposing of these toxins than others. Some are exposed to more toxins than others,  Heavy metals and other substances become lodged in our bodies, including the brain and cause various health issues. 

 

Since we are trying to heal our brains from these psychiatric meds, many of us may be having trouble due to toxins.  I'm not very good at describing all this, and I need to find some references.  The books I do know that discuss this are lyme books  - Kenneth Singleton's book on lyme, Richard Horowitz's "Why Can't get Better" about lyme, and Stephen Buhner's books, "healing lyme" all talk about this.  There are ways to detox the brain.  Many people get over Lyme, while others cannot.  The theory is that their bodies have deficiencies that need to be addressed before they can combat the lyme.  It could be hormones, adrenals, parasites, toxins and so on.  So I believe it is the same with those of us who have had so much trouble returning to normal after these brain meds.  Many folks seem to come off them with a short term withdrawal syndrome. For us it drags on and on.  Why are we different?   While these doctors who wrote these books are delving into many aspects of lyme recovery,, we have no one (that I know of) doing the same for us.  BUT-- we could benefit from the research and knowledge of these guys.  These books are good reading for anyone.   They get too technical for me to understand, but incorporating some of the supplements, vitamins, minerals, enzymes, herbs etc they discuss could be life changing for us as well.

 

While true metal chelation is dangerous and must be done with a doctor's care (metals can become dislodged , float around and cause more problems if not bound tightly to the removing agent and discharged from the body efficiently), there are apparently some safe substances that help detox the brain. I will try to gleam the best information from these books and post it here.   For now I wanted to point this concept out, and see if anyone has heard of Ritchie Shoemaker's online test for neurotoxins.   I have not taken the test yet. It sounds hard to believe, but some knowledgeable lyme doctors have referenced it so I'm curious and the price is very reasonable. I intend  take it and let my husband do it at the same time ( I guess this will work) and that might indicate a difference between people.   I can't post the link but if you google ', Ritchie shoemaker online test' you will get it.  It's based on the premise that if you have toxins it affects your ability to discern color shades and the online test will determine your ability to detect subtle color shades - at least that is what my current understanding of the test is.

 

 

2002? zoloft.  Start of synthroid unknown.

2002? switched to paxil  - Developed restless leg syndrome. stopped all caffeine which helped for many years.

2003? switched to effexor XL 75 mg. May 2012 began taper

July 2012 stopped all effexor . Usual WD symptoms, lost excess weight, had more energy. RLS stopped immediately!

Sept 2012 depression off and on, increasing. Tried tryptophan and acupuncture

Dec 2012 severe anxiety began

February 2013 used magnolia bark for anxiety - helped but developed central sleep apnea, so I stopped it

by April 2013- stopped tryptophan, using saffron herb successfully and started HRT

June 2013 doctor noticed bradycardia. I tried very small dose cytomel sev days for hypothyroidism but seemed to strain my heart.

July 2013 stopped saffron due to slow heart and palpitations - did not help.

July 2013 Increased synthroid from 50mg to 75mg. depression and anxiety improved. Heart problems continue.

September & October 2013 - 2 month course of antibiotic for possbile lyme disease - mood and anxiety improved further.  Heart pvc's flair up at times. 

 

 

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Janie,

 

Due to extreme sleep deprivation, I haven't read your whole post.   But I would greatly caution you against automatically latching on to "alternative provider" theories about various issues.   They can be just as full of "you know what" as mainstream medicine is.   And folks like us pay the price big time.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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Janie, another thing you can Google is Lyme and pyrrole disorder (pyroluria). Will look up the reference you gave.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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I've talked about toxins on this forum often. I believe toxins and infections are present in most w/d cases.

 

I am very familiar with mold docs like Shoemaker. I am treating myself with a modified protocol based on the premise of removing toxins (and metals) and checking infections while rebuilding the immune system. I also have Lyme.

 

I also have polyuria (or whatever it is called) and autoimmune diseases. These are false diagnoses however. AI are infections, nothing more. Polyuria is only present in parasitic cases.

 

The protocol to heal from a toxic syndrome is more about what is TAKEN OUT of the body rather than what is TAKEN IN and this is why modern medicine struggles with these syndromes generally. For instance fibro and CFS are toxin syndromes. Medicine is organized about WHAT TO TAKE to cure your problem and there is no MONEY in what not to take. Thus the Shoemaker protocol mainline treatment is to tka cholystyrmaine to bind up toxins for excretition, TO TAKE THEM OUT and is a cheap treatment that ignorant docs will ridicule. Unfortunately, cure is not so easy as just taking csm.

 

But yes, I think toxins (I don't know what neurotoxins are nor do I like that word) are major factor in all modern illness but especially w/d syndrome and toxicity diseases like the two I mentioned.

 

Once the toxins are not blocking the healing the body will restablish the homeostasis rapidly (in theory).

 

EDIT: I am very cautious about IV chelation of metals. You are right there is potential for serious adverse reactions.

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

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Alex, how were yourarasites diagnosed?

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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Alex, how were yourarasites diagnosed?

Laughably. Finally got a diagnosis when I went to the ER with a jar of worms I expelled from my bowel after eating no solid food for 6 days. Before that and after, lots of negative stool tests. I do muscle testing which is somewhat better than stool analysis, esecially for amoeba type parasites. The worms are tougher because there is evidence that the body wants them there, that they keep toxins from damaging the body and are used in this way to improve MS cases, google 'roundworms MS' if you'd like. Hard to diagnose.

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

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I doubt toxins play a major role in most withdrawal syndrome cases.

 

I do not believe issues due to infection with Lyme disease or parasites can be extrapolated to the general population. Not everyone has Lyme disease or is suffering ill effects from parasites.

 

The belief that toxins cause disease is a very ancient one, as are purification rituals to drive out such toxins. These are superstitions.

 

There is a lot of variability among nervous systems and their abilities to withstand various kinds of chemical trauma, and that is the reason some people have prolonged post-discontinuation syndrome. It has nothing to do with neurotoxins, except if you consider psychiatric drugs to be neurotoxins (as Stuart Shipko does).

 

People with prolonged post-discontinuation syndrome are not generating endogenous neurotoxins. I don't want people visiting here to be frightened by such nonsense.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Alex, how were yourarasites diagnosed?

Laughably. Finally got a diagnosis when I went to the ER with a jar of worms I expelled from my bowel after eating no solid food for 6 days. Before that and after, lots of negative stool tests. I do muscle testing which is somewhat better than stool analysis, esecially for amoeba type parasites. The worms are tougher because there is evidence that the body wants them there, that they keep toxins from damaging the body and are used in this way to improve MS cases, google 'roundworms MS' if you'd like. Hard to diagnose.

 

So you had liquids for six days then out the worms came?  What did you drink?  Were there restrictions like no dairy?  What form of muscle testing are you having done and what type of doctor does this?  What type of worms did you have were they amoeba type parasites?  Do these worms have anything to do with your auto immune issues?  As in could they be the cause as your body was working so hard to get rid of worms it could not kill your immune system went hyper and attacked other parts because of this hyper over worked state.  I have read about this happening. 

I have also read of parasites in other tissues of the body not the bowel where fasting may help excrete them do you think you have parasites in other tissue or that they are now gone?  

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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I doubt toxins play a major role in most withdrawal syndrome cases.

I wouldn't mention it here it if I wasn't close-to-100% convinced.

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

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So you had liquids for six days then out the worms came?  What did you drink?  Were there restrictions like no dairy?  What form of muscle testing are you having done and what type of doctor does this?  What type of worms did you have were they amoeba type parasites?  Do these worms have anything to do with your auto immune issues?  As in could they be the cause as your body was working so hard to get rid of worms it could not kill your immune system went hyper and attacked other parts because of this hyper over worked state.  I have read about this happening. 

I have also read of parasites in other tissues of the body not the bowel where fasting may help excrete them do you think you have parasites in other tissue or that they are now gone?

My digestion was so deranged I could not eat. I thought I was going to die and I thought I had an obstructed bowel. I was surprised to see the worms. There are 30 pages about my case in my thread.

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

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  • Administrator

I know you believe it, alex.
 
One thing about humans: They often think everyone is very much like them. Everybody has this tendency, it may feel true, but it is not true.
 
You have a combination of rare conditions. I doubt many people on this site have even one of them, much less a combination like yours.
 
Please be aware, there is wide variability among the people even on this site. For example, of the more than 1,200 who have Introduction topics, only a few have reported a clear diagnosis of Lyme disease. While it unfortunately occurs too often and is probably underdiagnosed, Lyme disease is not very common -- only about 30,000 cases per year in a U.S. population of more than 300 million http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/chartstables/casesbyyear.html
 
For example, to say that everyone with withdrawal problems has Lyme disease is sheer unsupported speculation. For most people, withdrawal symptoms occur AFTER inconsistent dosing or quitting -- not like the long history of Lyme disease -- and their symptoms do not match Lyme disease, they match withdrawal syndrome.
 
After reading every case on this site plus thousands of others, it's pretty clear to me what we have here is a cross-section of everyone taking psychiatric drugs, which amounts to a cross-section of the population. Many people were working and feeling fine before they starting changing dosage. Others had clear adverse effects from the drugs from the beginning. Some have other medical problems which do, sadly, make withdrawal syndrome even more difficult for them. Not everyone is the same.
 
My intention on this site is to provide better information about withdrawal than available elsewhere on the Web. There are thousands of sites where people are trading bad information, unsupported speculations, intuitions, rumors, superstitions, and recommendations of scams (some provided by physicians). That is why the Web has a bad reputation for medical information.
 
I don't want this site to be that kind of hotbed of baloney. That means I may pass judgment on your ideas. I try to be diplomatic about it, but if I someone hasn't done the homework, such as read even 10 of the hundreds of papers in the Journals section about withdrawal, I am going to discourage uninformed speculation about withdrawal that might frighten others unnecessarily.

 

If you wish to engage in such speculation, you can do it elsewhere.
 
Now, to me, this kind of discussion is like discussing whether the Earth is flat. You might look out your window and assume this is so. Your neighbor might agree with you. But we know the Earth is not flat, there is no such thing as "chemical imbalance" corrected by psychiatric drugs, and all people with withdrawal do not also suffer from uncommon health conditions.
 
You may notice there are lots of people in the Introductions section who would like some suggestions on how to get off drugs safely. I am trying to give them such guidance as I can -- which takes hours each day -- and also take care of myself and have a life.
 
Therefore, to conserve my time and energy, I would rather not have to respond to this kind of unfounded speculation. Please read the last section of What will get you warned or banned
 
 

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Alto, I know when we are desperate, we latch on to theories that make sense to us but may not be supported by evidence.   For example, I thought for the longest time that Remeron caused my hearing loss.  I mean, it started to happen 3 months after starting the med.   I still think there may be some relationship but I am now not convinced it was the whole story

 

I greatly appreciate your efforts in making this site a first rate source of credible information.  Just you know, I have referred people on the apnea board to the tapering section when they had questions about how to slowly get off of a med.  One person, who worked in the medical field, was very impressed when she reading particular post about getting off of a med.

 

Anyway, I am very appreciative of this site and the efforts you put in to make it this way.   And I thank the folks who assist you to keep it running.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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Thank you, CS.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I did read the 30 pages maybe I went too fast.  To my mind it I did not see the not eating for six days or juicing. 

I personally think there may be some sort of immune affects that go along with these drug for some of us so far not much is known about this.  We can't predict the future maybe some day we will know.  Science gets entrenched in its views and if very slow to change is what I see. I am not saying infections become part of the healing for all people but I have seen it in enough people a few... that I wonder about it.  No amount of speculation is truly justified when dealing with people in withdrawal of that I agree as it is such a difficult and tricky thing to heal from. Yet there is a tiny part of me that would like to see balance between speculation and withdrawal conservatism.  Mostly because I can recall not that long ago protracted withdrawal was thought to be impossible too yet here we are on a site that fully believes it. I guess I am concerned for those who may have even more challenges than normal withdrawal having no place to turn.  

 

I guess because I feel I have always been on the fringe when it comes to withdrawal sites I would like to see a fringe area for speculation.  For those of us who feel they are on the outside who had recurring infections and treatment... maybe there is something to this from an immune stand point.

 

I guess as Alto says this is her site and she does not want it here that there will be other places to do that sort of work perhaps some day. 

 

In the back of my mind this is what I think... if this post is pushing the limits just delete it...Alto I don't mind at all. 

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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  • 1 month later...

I just came back from new psychologist who wants to rule out Lyme disease.  I'm freaking out.  

She said my symptoms sound like LYme even the zaps.  

Started Effexor August 2012 Sept'12-150mg=extreme anxiety Oct'12 cut half-75mg severe wds

Feb 2013 68.5mg. Mar'13- 65mg. Apr'13-59mg. May'13-57mg. June '13-52mg Aug'13 49.75mg.

Sep'13-48.75. Nov'13-47mg Dec'13-45..5mg

May 2014 42mg. Jun'14 40mg (depressive mood started). Aug'14 -40mg/ started brintellix 2.5mg

Oct '14 -39 Nov'14 36.89 Dec'14 34.45

Jan 2015- 31 Feb'15 29mg. Mar'15 26.72. Apr'15 24.48. May'15 22.31mg. Jun'15 20.30mg

Aug'15-18.89. Oct'15 16.96. Nov/16- 16.10. Dec/15- 15mg

Jan 2016-14.22. May'16 11.45. Aug'16-9.60. Sep/16- 8.88mg. Oct/16- 8.39mg. Nov/16- 8.13. Dec/16- 7.89

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Hi Lexy,

 

Unless for some reason you suspect Lyme disease, I would ignore her advice.   And really, since when is a psychologist qualified to diagnose the condition?

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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Thanks Compsports,

I went to a psychologist trying to find help in dealing with symptoms of wd. She said that I should see about getting lyme test as all my symptoms (zaps, anxiety, crying spells, joint and muscle pain) are found in Lyme disease.

 

My memory is not good as it was however I can't think of ever having a tick bite. I'm not out in areas where that could happen.

I font know if I should get the test just to rule it out.

Started Effexor August 2012 Sept'12-150mg=extreme anxiety Oct'12 cut half-75mg severe wds

Feb 2013 68.5mg. Mar'13- 65mg. Apr'13-59mg. May'13-57mg. June '13-52mg Aug'13 49.75mg.

Sep'13-48.75. Nov'13-47mg Dec'13-45..5mg

May 2014 42mg. Jun'14 40mg (depressive mood started). Aug'14 -40mg/ started brintellix 2.5mg

Oct '14 -39 Nov'14 36.89 Dec'14 34.45

Jan 2015- 31 Feb'15 29mg. Mar'15 26.72. Apr'15 24.48. May'15 22.31mg. Jun'15 20.30mg

Aug'15-18.89. Oct'15 16.96. Nov/16- 16.10. Dec/15- 15mg

Jan 2016-14.22. May'16 11.45. Aug'16-9.60. Sep/16- 8.88mg. Oct/16- 8.39mg. Nov/16- 8.13. Dec/16- 7.89

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Thanks Compsports,

I went to a psychologist trying to find help in dealing with symptoms of wd. She said that I should see about getting lyme test as all my symptoms (zaps, anxiety, crying spells, joint and muscle pain) are found in Lyme disease.

 

My memory is not good as it was however I can't think of ever having a tick bite. I'm not out in areas where that could happen.

I font know if I should get the test just to rule it out.

Personally, I wouldn't but obviously, you have to make the call.    I guess if you have good insurance coverage, then maybe it is worth it.  

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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I get what Alto is saying about the whole Lyme disease theory, but does that also mean she does not think we have toxins in our bodies and our brains that if we detoxed some of them, to be healthier, it could also help our brains heal better???  Please weigh in on this topic, as I got confused after it got side tracked about Alex and Lyme etc. etc.  Has anyone tried to do some detox's to be healthier????

Sept-1990 started my first AD Zoloft never got higher dose than 50mg

Dec-1990 Quit Zoloft  =Nov-1995 Back on Zoloft for Post-partum depression/anxiety

early-1998 Quit Prozac to get pregnant   =Feb-1999 Back on Prozac 20mg

10-1999 Prozac 30mg  =12-1999 Prozac 20mg

7-2001 switch to Wellbutrin SR 100mg

8-2001 increase Wellbutrin SR 150mg

10-2001 adding back Prozac 20mg

5-2003 tapered off Prozac  =7-2003 back on Prozac 20mg

8-2003 Add in Imipramine 25mg then to 50mg    (given Xanax for bad panic episodes

9-2003 Imipramine 75 mg then to 100mg

1-2004 switch to Lexapro 10mg

8-2004 Lexapro 20mg, Imipramine 75mg

4-2006 Adding Wellbutrin 150mg then to 200mg

7-2006 switch Lexapro to Celexa

12-2007Celexa 40mg Wellbutirin 150mg

9-2009 switch back to Lexapro 20mg, WellbutrinXL 150mg

2-2010 stop Lexapro start Celexa 40mg

11-2010 switch Celexa to Cymbalta 60mg

3-2011 Cymbalta 60mg switch to Effexor 37.5 to 75mg

10-2012 thru 12-2012 taper Effexor 75mg to 37.5 and off.

5-2013 start generic Prozac 10mg to 20mg, Trazadone 25mg  BEGIN THE TAPER(6-2013 Prozac 20mg to 10mg, Trazadone 25mg. 7-2013 liquid Prozac 7mg, Trazadone 25mg 8-2013 liquid Prozac 8mg, Trazadone 25mg9-2013 liquid Prozac 5mg, Trazadone 25mg10-31-2013 liquid Prozac 3.25mg, Trazadone 25mg=11-11-2013 liquid Prozac 3.0mg, Trazadone 25mg=12-4-2013 liquid Prozac 2.8mg, Trazadone 25mg=12-13-2013 liquid Prozac 2.5mg, Trazadone 25mg=1-5-2014 liquid Prozac 2.0mg, Trazadone 25mg=(CURRENT/06-01-2014 LAST dose liquid Prozac, Trazadone 25mg)((Aug. 13, 2014 reinstate .20mg of liquid Prozac for crippling anxiety, dread (still on same Trazadone...)supplements are probiotic, Vit. D3 and Fish Oil daily)Aug 19th reinstate 6.25mg Zoloft, Sept. 4th 25mg Zoloft.CURRENT(50mg Zoloft, 25mg Trazadone)

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I have tried a detox, while in acute and severe withdrawal.  I did a Myer's cocktail and I almost wound up in the hospital because of it. Right after it it caused my body temp. to drop, I was shivering so violently I couldn't even control myself, and then spent the night with a radically fluctuating temp. and blood pressure.  Thankfully by morning I felt okay. 

 

I've been around boards like this for years, and I recall a number of people in acute and severe withdrawal or who had been newly injured by adverse reactions to drugs reported detoxes made them feel worse. 

 

I don't know how they affect people who have milder withdrawals, or who aren't in the acute phase anymore, or how they affect people who have other medical conditions where their use might be warranted.  Generally though what might be good or at least tolerable for a person who is healthy can't be automatically presumed to be good for someone who is in withdrawal or has had an adverse reaction.  For instance, a fair number of people with severe symptoms seem to report having problems with exercise, people sometimes get exercise intolerance where otherwise they'd be okay with it.

I am not a medical professional and nothing I say is a medical opinion or meant to be medical advice, please seek a competent and trusted medical professional to consult for all medical decisions.

 

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Oh, I should have added, it didn't seem to do anything to alleviate my problems either, once the adverse effects wore off I felt the same as I had before trying it.

I am not a medical professional and nothing I say is a medical opinion or meant to be medical advice, please seek a competent and trusted medical professional to consult for all medical decisions.

 

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If your system is in a sensitized state, it might be wise not to do something stressful to it like a detox.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I think "detox" is a very wide term that could mean several things, including just more veggies and fruits. I have noted, and others also, improvement on the paleo autoimmune diet...that's sort of a detox in its own way. I am trying to get my head around a book on CFS by Sarah Myhill MD. She believes most people have potentially toxic viruses, etc. it is a person's sensitivity that makes them sick from that, not solely the presence of the virus. I have no idea if she is right, but the book is very interesting albeit too complex for me. I tried juicing for a day in Wellbutrin tapering...by noon I was "manic" or whatever it was that drug did to me. If you have been on a lot of medication, you do not want to be pulling it out of your fat quickly.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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  • 4 months later...

I think "detox" is a very wide term that could mean several things, including just more veggies and fruits. I have noted, and others also, improvement on the paleo autoimmune diet...that's sort of a detox in its own way. I am trying to get my head around a book on CFS by Sarah Myhill MD. She believes most people have potentially toxic viruses, etc. it is a person's sensitivity that makes them sick from that, not solely the presence of the virus. I have no idea if she is right, but the book is very interesting albeit too complex for me. I tried juicing for a day in Wellbutrin tapering...by noon I was "manic" or whatever it was that drug did to me. If you have been on a lot of medication, you do not want to be pulling it out of your fat quickly.

Have you had any better luck with that book.. or is like a lot of mine and laying waiting for your reading brain to come back?

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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Ha :). I read it, but sure didn't understand it all.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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Ha :). I read it, but sure didn't understand it all.

Was there anything useful to you that you would care to share... cheap and trying to get out of reading a book I won't understand :)

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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Ha!

 

Some drugs cause what she calls a muscle allergy. If I remember right, it accumulates in the muscle (not sure) and causes widespread pain. I think this happened to me and my sister with Prozac, was even worse for me with Cymbalta.

 

SOD is an enzyme that detoxes mitochondria. If the gene(s?) is mutated, you will be much more vulnerable to any toxic exposure, chemicals and heavy metals. The damaged cells release RNA into the bloodstream. For a price, you can measure damaged RNA in the blood and see what is gumming them up.

 

Gut health and blood sugar stability are critical to energy production.

 

"Normal" diets do not have enough nutrients to maintain health and energy levels. She recommends what she calls a Stone Age diet and a blanket supplementation program.

 

Or maybe I didn't understand :)

 

Google Sarah Myhill to find her website with a lot of this explained...if you have the energy, lol

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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  • 10 months later...

In my self-education on Lyme disease (diagnosed by Igenex Labs), I am learning a lot about neurotoxins.  We are all exposed to toxins every day.  Some people's bodies are better at disposing of these toxins than others. Some are exposed to more toxins than others,  Heavy metals and other substances become lodged in our bodies, including the brain and cause various health issues. 

 

Since we are trying to heal our brains from these psychiatric meds, many of us may be having trouble due to toxins.  I'm not very good at describing all this, and I need to find some references.  The books I do know that discuss this are lyme books  - Kenneth Singleton's book on lyme, Richard Horowitz's "Why Can't get Better" about lyme, and Stephen Buhner's books, "healing lyme" all talk about this.  There are ways to detox the brain.  Many people get over Lyme, while others cannot.  The theory is that their bodies have deficiencies that need to be addressed before they can combat the lyme.  It could be hormones, adrenals, parasites, toxins and so on.  So I believe it is the same with those of us who have had so much trouble returning to normal after these brain meds.  Many folks seem to come off them with a short term withdrawal syndrome. For us it drags on and on.  Why are we different?   While these doctors who wrote these books are delving into many aspects of lyme recovery,, we have no one (that I know of) doing the same for us.  BUT-- we could benefit from the research and knowledge of these guys.  These books are good reading for anyone.   They get too technical for me to understand, but incorporating some of the supplements, vitamins, minerals, enzymes, herbs etc they discuss could be life changing for us as well.

 

While true metal chelation is dangerous and must be done with a doctor's care (metals can become dislodged , float around and cause more problems if not bound tightly to the removing agent and discharged from the body efficiently), there are apparently some safe substances that help detox the brain. I will try to gleam the best information from these books and post it here.   For now I wanted to point this concept out, and see if anyone has heard of Ritchie Shoemaker's online test for neurotoxins.   I have not taken the test yet. It sounds hard to believe, but some knowledgeable lyme doctors have referenced it so I'm curious and the price is very reasonable. I intend  take it and let my husband do it at the same time ( I guess this will work) and that might indicate a difference between people.   I can't post the link but if you google ', Ritchie shoemaker online test' you will get it.  It's based on the premise that if you have toxins it affects your ability to discern color shades and the online test will determine your ability to detect subtle color shades - at least that is what my current understanding of the test is.

Ritchie shoemaker online test

Did you do this test Janie... I realize you have not been here for some time and am hoping you get an email notification of activity here.  I have been looking at the Shoemaker ideas of late. 

 

Also since I tend to react to a drug poorly there is a list of neurotoxic drugs here if anyone else would like to view it

it has a link to an updated expanded version.  

http://www.cmtausa.org/resource-center/treatment-management/neurotoxic-medications/

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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Updated version in pdf form requires online registration which I am way to paranoid to do. If you get it copy and paste it to me in a pm... thanks 

B

peace all

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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