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Dr. Stuart Shipko's controversial views on tapering


compsports

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oh...fyi...he did respond...both on the public thread and directly to my private email.

 

We're going to chat on the phone. I felt much better after he responded. 

Everything Matters: Beyond Meds 

https://beyondmeds.com/

withdrawn from a cocktail of 6 psychiatric drugs that included every class of psych drug.
 

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I didn't even finish reading that article because I felt it was pessimistic.

Tapering Zoloft, Dec 2014

Started Lamictal

Re-started Zoloft mid-Oct 2014, 25-50mg

Stopped Zoloft end of Sept 2014

Started Zoloft July 2014, 50mg

Stopped Prozac from 3mg May 2014

Stopped Effexor Dec '13 Started 10mg Prozac

Reinstated Effexor 15mg on Nov 2013

Stopped from 21mg on Oct 2013
Effexor 112.5mg, since Dec 2012

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I would like to see Dr. Shipko as he is not far from me, but am very concerned that I will leave even more hopeless than I am.

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

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Oh, that is a tough one Barb. What about emailing him and politely expressing your concerns and see what he says?

 

What do you hope he will do for you? I have found that asking myself that question has been helpful when I debated where or not to see a doctor.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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When I read his article I cringed. I replied if I had read this before I tapered I doubted it would had stopped me (I was dying on those drugs). Dr. Shipko stated it was 100% no one can come off these drugs and have a life again. I strongly disagree because I'm proof this isn't true.

 

 

GiaK,

 

If you could please tell us a little how your conversation with Dr. Shipko went and if he was enlightened by it??

Unable at this time to correspond by private message.

 

Link to my Introduction thread: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2477-aria-my-psych-journey/

Reading my psychiatric records: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5466-drugged-crazy-reading-my-psychiatric-records/

My Success Story is listed under "Aria's Recovery".

 

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No more Mad In America for me. I can't take the harassment from the commenters, and the mods won't do anything about it.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I think my different take on his article is because I was relatively functional on the cocktail and "tapered" off of Pristiq because I felt the SS/NRIs never benefitted me and could pull it out of the mix. I still don't believe they helped, but my house of cards was built around them and it collapsed in a big way.

 

And, on further thought....I am far too emotionally fragile to expose myself to anyone who might do more harm with words or actions.

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

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No more Mad In America for me. I can't take the harassment from the commenters, and the mods won't do anything about it.

Alto,

 

I don't blame you one bit for leaving the site after what happened.

 

By the way, I know this is an off topic response but I thank you profusely for creating a safe supportive environment in which we don't have to fear being attacked.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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No more Mad In America for me. I can't take the harassment from the commenters, and the mods won't do anything about it.

 

I don't blame you either.  I was reading over there, and thought your comment aimed at the forum was great.

I am not a medical professional and nothing I say is a medical opinion or meant to be medical advice, please seek a competent and trusted medical professional to consult for all medical decisions.

 

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I very carefully participate in those threads on MIA and don't go back to read responses most of the time...that's the only way I can tolerate it at all.  I learned that trick years ago when Furious Seasons was the forum for that sort of ugliness. And of course I still end up regretting any involvement at all quite often...I've backed off social media in the last couple of days...  http://beyondmeds.com/2013/08/14/the-fall-out/

 

Aria,

I've not talked to Shipko yet. We've exchanged contact info for a phone call is all at this point. I've known Shipko via email groups from several years. I've never talked to him though.

Everything Matters: Beyond Meds 

https://beyondmeds.com/

withdrawn from a cocktail of 6 psychiatric drugs that included every class of psych drug.
 

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In Dr. Shipko's defense, here is his comment appended to his MIA piece that clarifies his position:

 

Comment Link: http://www.madinamerica.com/2013/08/ssri-discontinuation-is-even-more-problematic-than-acknowledged/#comment-29644 

Author: Stuart Shipko, M.D.Comment:Hi Alto:The term 'citizen scientist' was actually a compliment and not a derogatory term.  The best, and perhaps only, information on withdrawal is coming from the patients themselves.I am not frustrated or angry and have not given up on helping patients to withdraw.  I do want to make a major effort to keep people away from these drugs if their problems are modest and not worth the risk.  Also, the potential tragedy that I see when long term patients on SSRIs try to stop should be something that patients consider before stopping.As far as tapering, the BDZs and the SSRIs are quite different, and I definitely agree that the drugs should be tapered slowly.  What I find, however, is that even with slow tapering this does not ameliorate the longer term problems.  I write this because a lot of patients seem to blame themselves for tapering too fast, when this self blame is unfounded.  They may have tapered very slowly, yet when longer term withdrawal related symptoms occur, they feel that if only they had tapered more slowly things would be OK.  I am by no means giving up on helping people who want to get off of SSRIs, and the autonomic nervous system is certainly implicated as part of the damage that the drugs do, but the withdrawal emergent effects are so variable that at this point I'm reluctant to experiment on patients without a better database.This is not an end point for my work in the area so much as a call to arms on a very difficult problem

 

 

 

I have met and spoken with Dr. Shipko. While he is interested in treating drug damage, he hasn't found anything that worked and can't offer any advice about it.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I refuse to read Dr.Shipko.Period.

4 years aprox. on 150mgs.Effexor for situational major depression.No AD before.
Tapered 150-0mgs in 3 months.

Tapered Quetiapine,Xanax in the last 18 months.NO med of any kind anymore.
First 3 months off acute w/d
Protracted w/d ever since.
Symptoms:Anxiety,anhedonia,insomnia,tinnitus,PSSD

04/13/2014 Awful Relapse.Recovered fairly fast.

3 years and 4 months off.

waves and windows.Very much recovered.

November 2015,health issue.Setback.
 

 

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In Dr. Shipko's defense, here is his comment appended to his MIA piece that clarifies his position:Comment Link: http://www.madinamerica.com/2013/08/ssri-discontinuation-is-even-more-problematic-than-acknowledged/#comment-29644

Author: Stuart Shipko, M.D.Comment:Hi Alto:The term 'citizen scientist' was actually a compliment and not a derogatory term. The best, and perhaps only, information on withdrawal is coming from the patients themselves.I am not frustrated or angry and have not given up on helping patients to withdraw. I do want to make a major effort to keep people away from these drugs if their problems are modest and not worth the risk. Also, the potential tragedy that I see when long term patients on SSRIs try to stop should be something that patients consider before stopping.As far as tapering, the BDZs and the SSRIs are quite different, and I definitely agree that the drugs should be tapered slowly. What I find, however, is that even with slow tapering this does not ameliorate the longer term problems. I write this because a lot of patients seem to blame themselves for tapering too fast, when this self blame is unfounded. They may have tapered very slowly, yet when longer term withdrawal related symptoms occur, they feel that if only they had tapered more slowly things would be OK. I am by no means giving up on helping people who want to get off of SSRIs, and the autonomic nervous system is certainly implicated as part of the damage that the drugs do, but the withdrawal emergent effects are so variable that at this point I'm reluctant to experiment on patients without a better database.This is not an end point for my work in the area so much as a call to arms on a very difficult problem

I have met and spoken with Dr. Shipko. While he is interested in treating drug damage, he hasn't found anything that worked and can't offer any advice about it.
His clarification statement makes sense to me. He appears to be exercising due caution / informed consent in both starting and stopping drugs.

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

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So, I think that what Shipko refers to as a "slow" taper is probably a relative term.  Do we know what percentage he recommends as a slow taper?

 

Before I found this forum I was doing a "slow" taper with support from my pdoc ... and I might have made it off Effexor completely had I not destabilized my system by attempting to drop gabapentin by 100 mg while I was riding the fine edge.  The 100 mg gabapentin drop was based on what the medical community considers a "slow" taper. 

 

But I think knowing what I know now if I had made it off of Effexor on my so-called "slow" taper I would have been one of those people Shipko speaks of who ended up with anxiety and depression after a period of a few months off.  Why?  Because my "slow" taper was at a rate of 6.25 mg every 2-3 weeks.  At that rate I suffered everso slight blues the first 3 days after the decrement and then I was fine, so I probably would have made it and I was 3 decrements from being off completely.

 

I have come to the realization that it may well take me another 3+ years to come off of Effexor completely (I am currently at 16.2 mg) because I am now reducing at a rate of 7% off of the previous dose because at that amount I have no adverse effects.  But that is what works for me.

 

We are all individuals and there are mitigating factors.  Blanket statements in my humble opinion are irresponsible ...

 

Karma

2007 @ 375 mg Effexor - 11/29/2011 - 43.75 mg Effexor (regular) & .625 mg Xanax

200 mg Gabapentin 2/27/21 - 194.5 mg, 5/28/21 - 183 mg, 8/2/21 - 170 mg, 11/28/21 - 150 mg, 4/19/22 - 122 mg; 8//7/22 - 100 mg; 12/17 - 75mg; 8/17 - 45 mg; 10/16 40 mg
Xanax taper: 3/11/12 - 0.9375 mg, 3/25/12 - 0.875 mg, 4/6/12 - 0.8125 mg, 4/18/12 - 0.75 ; 10/16 40mg;

1/16 0.6875 mg; at some point 0.625 mg
Effexor taper: 1/29/12 - 40.625 mg, 4/29/12 - 39.875 mg, 5/11/12 - Switched to liquid Effexor, 5/25/12 - 38 mg, 7/6/12 - 35 mg, 8/17/12 - 32 mg, 9/14/12 - 30 mg, 10/19/12 - 28 mg, 11/9/12 - 26 mg, 11/30/12 - 24 mg, 01/14/13 - 22 mg. 02/25/13 - 20.8 mg, 03/18/13 - 19.2 mg, 4/15/13 - 17.6 mg, 8/10/13 - 16.4 mg, 9/7/13 - 15.2 mg, 10/19/13 - 14 mg, 1/15/14 - 13.2 mg, 3/1/2014 - 12.6 mg, 5/4/14 - 12 mg, 8/1/14 - 11.4 mg, 8/29/14 - 10.8 mg; 10/14/14 - 10.2 mg; 12/15/14 - 10 mg, 1/11/15 - 9.5 mg, 2/8/15 - 9 mg, 3/21/15 - 8.5 mg, 5/1/15 - 8 mg, 6/9/15 - 7.5 mg, 7/8/15 - 7 mg, 8/22/15 - 6.5 mg, 10/4/15 - 6 mg; 1/1/16 - 5.6 mg; 2/6/16 - 5.2 mg; 4/9 - 4.8 mg; 7/7 4.5 mg; 10/7 4.25 mg; 11/4 4.0 mg; 11/25 3.8 mg; 4/24 3.6 mg; 5/27 3.4 mg; 7/8 3.2 mg ... 10/18 2.8 mg; 1/18 2.6 mg; 4/7 2.4 mg; 5/26 2.15mg; 8/18 1.85 mg; 10/7 1.7 mg; 12/1 1.45 mg; 3/2 1.2 mg; 5/4 0.90 mg; 6/1 0.80 mg; 6/22 0.65 mg; 08/03 0.50 mg, 08/10 0.45 mg, 10/05 0.325 mg, 11/23 0.2 mg, 12/14 0.15 mg, 12/21 0.125 mg, 02/28 0.03125 mg, 2/15 0.015625 mg, 2/29/20 0.00 mg - OFF Effexor


I am not a medical professional - this is not medical advice. My suggestions are based on personal experience, reading, observation and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers

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So, I think that what Shipko refers to as a "slow" taper is probably a relative term.

 

Karma, I'm SO glad you pointed this out. This is so very important!

 

I have long experience with withdrawal groups, and if I had a dollar for every person who posts "I tapered very slowly" I'd be wealthy.

 

When I ask their taper schedule, it's usually something like "Well, I cut my pill in half for two weeks, then cut the half pills in half for two weeks, just like my doctor told me to." Aargh.

 

And some have done better tapers, but still with too-large drops and still not following their body's dictates when they should have adapted their tapering as problems occurred, as you so wisely are doing.

 

And I was one of them. I went off paxil in about six weeks, following a taper schedule my truly well-intentioned doctor gave me. He kept reminding me emphatically to go slowly, and I thought that taper schedule was ridiculously slow. tbh, I did it (the six-week taper) only so I could tell him I followed his advice. I thought it was absurd.

 

I had been told when first put on the paxil that it couldn't possibly be addictive. This matter came up because I was given the paxil to ameliorate a very protracted and disabling two-week benzo w/d, and adamently didn't want to risk taking another medication. It was only because another doctor who is very prudent with medications and was livid that people were still being prescribed benzos even when I was put on them, told me that paxil (which had just recently come on the market) worked in a totally different way and there was no way it could cause any withdrawal. I was never told otherwise. My doctor who later gave me the taper schedule when I wanted to go off them apparently had no idea that I was still completely unaware that they could cause any kind of withdrawal syndrome.

 

I was absolutely stunned when a mod on "the other group" told me when I mentioned the paxil taper schedule I'd followed, that it was a "virtual cold-turkey."

 

So there very possibly have been miscommunications about slow tapering, and also many people (I was one) don't even think to mention other meds they've been on in the past or having c/t'd them.  Many (I find) don't even remember having been on some, because they thought nothing of it at the time.

 

I have many medical conditions and will never remember completely all the medications that affect the neuro-endocrine system I've taken. Occasionally I find old medical records in my file and see names of meds I'd totally forgotten about. I thought doctors knew what they were doing and was just focusing on being well enough to work and to take care of family.

I was "TryingToGetWell" (aka TTGW) on paxilprogress. I also was one of the original members here on Surviving Antidepressants

 

I had horrific and protracted withdrawal from paxil, but now am back to enjoying life with enthusiasm to the max, some residual physical symptoms continued but largely improve. The horror, severe derealization, anhedonia, akathisia, and so much more, are long over.

 

My signature is a temporary scribble from year 2013. I'll rewrite it when I can.

 

If you want to read it, click on http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/209-brandy-anyone/?p=110343

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One of the most frustrating aspects of Dr. Shipko's blog entry is now all the cold turkey fans will use this as proof that it isn't dangerous and as further proof that us slow tapering advocates are a bunch of alarmists. They won't realize that the folks like GiaK who weren't protected by a slow taper had some unusual circumstances.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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That would be a misinterpretation of what Shipko has to say -- he failed to make it clear he believes tapering is better than nothing -- but I agree, it will be fuel for those fools.

 

I don't believe you can expect any kind of intelligent discussion in comments on MIA. The fools will reign. Kermit, the discussions manager, told me he's applying the Finnish "Open Dialog" philosophy to the comments section, on the theory that "crazy disappears" in a context of permissive listening. Bullying, harassing, posting in bad faith, etc. is deemed therapeutic for the poster unless he or she runs afoul of certain semantic guidelines.

 

"Open Dialog" requires a very high ratio of support staff to participants specifically so everyone feels safe. That anyone would try to apply "Open Dialog" to a lightly monitored Web forum -- well, Kermit is a nice person. Perhaps he'll learn.

 

Such is the way MIA is shaped by ideology. Also, the MIA staff believes warning people not to cold turkey is coercive and authoritarian. (Bob Whitaker seems to support an agnostic position on tapering for this reason.) This leads to contortions such as Laura Delano's "there is no one right way to go off psychiatric medications," implicitly including cold turkey as just as good as any other way.

 

A year or so ago, I met Laura in San Francisco, and she told me to my face we were "totally aligned" when it comes to cold turkey vs tapering. This turned out to be entirely untrue. In her public speaking and writing, Laura still consistently uses the "there is no one right way to go off psychiatric medications" trope so as to avoid warning against cold turkey.

 

Hence, I have requested that all links to SurvivingAntidepressants.org be removed from MIA's resources section and that Kermit and Matthew stop referring people here for tapering. If, for ideological reasons, they can't publicly support tapering, I refuse to make them look good with my work. They can do their own heavy lifting. Laura gives talks about going off drugs, she says she supports people in the process, let her deal with any questions at MIA.

 

Let me say that, given Bob Whitaker has done so much to get people to question whether they should be on psychiatric drugs, I feel that advice about how to actually accomplish going off them is a crucial missing piece at MIA -- blocked by a misguided ideology. Given Bob's message, the lack of information at MIA about safely going off is irresponsible. Rather than doing the right thing and encouraging tapering, the MIA folks recruit people like me to do it and take the hits for them.

 

I've been treated badly by MIA and I'm not filling in any gaps for them.

 

SurvivingAntidepressants.org gets plenty of visits via Google and most emphatically does not need referrals from MIA.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Wow. I'm sorry to hear that is their position, Alto. Very disturbing.

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

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My sentiments also Barb in being stunned. Great, so they would rather people end up suicidal and in psych hospitals with more drugs from cold turkeying vs. appeaning to be authoritative by warning against cold turkey. But they can't be alarming folks now, can they :rolleyes:

 

Don't blame you one bit Alto for the actions you have taken to disassociate yourself from the MIA site.  I seriously doubt there will be any changes. Although it was interesting that when medical professionals complained, they got tougher. But the rest of us are fair game.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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I am stunned as well.  Alto, so sorry you were so badly treated over there. 

 

I just went over there and started a long angry comment to post, but then decided against it.

 

As someone whom has a fair background in mental health issues and who has bothered to look into issues like drugs causing suicide/various forms of mental distress, and as someone with severe injuries from drugs, I am very, very aware that some of the demanding questions re prove antidepressants cause this or that kind of mental distress or suicide are written by people whom have not bothered to look into the issues themselves.

 

I can't fathom why people with severe injuries need to use google for them.  Ugh.

 

What has really angered me is, I won't likely be going back to that site, and obviously you won't Alto, and it would appear some others here might not either.

 

Yet from what I can see some of the remaining people there appear to be people whom have no experience with severe withdrawal, whom don't appear to have a need to get off a drug ie they are not the target audience of the article.

 

How fair is it that we should be run out by those people?

And one person wrote something about hoping that the dialogue could still be inclusive, other people's input being invaluable, after further up in the thread insinuating that people in long term withdrawal are all alcoholics or street drug addicts.

 

Like I want a part of that discussion.

I am not a medical professional and nothing I say is a medical opinion or meant to be medical advice, please seek a competent and trusted medical professional to consult for all medical decisions.

 

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Totally agree UnfoldingSky. As I said to one commenator, he is no better than what psychiatry does in discounting our reactions to meds.   Unfortunately, he didn't see it that way which isn't a surprise.

 

By the way, the person you refer to as insuiting that people in long term withdrwawal are drug addicts or alcoholics is a mental health counselor. That is a scary thought.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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As I wrote the MIA moderators, they choose their policies and how to apply their policies and they get the level of discussion they get.

 

No one who was snide to any other member, no matter how semantically couched, would get away with that here.

 

If the MIA moderators don't want people posting who know anything about tapering and withdrawal, that's their decision. Yes, it is a shame, given the objectives of the site, but it's a result of their policies: "Open Dialog" for the worst behaved.

 

There are many, many Web sites where comments aren't worth reading because of the prevalence of jerks, MIA may very well be one of them.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Totally agree UnfoldingSky. As I said to one commenator, he is no better than what psychiatry does in discounting our reactions to meds.   Unfortunately, he didn't see it that way which isn't a surprise.

 

By the way, the person you refer to as insuiting that people in long term withdrwawal are drug addicts or alcoholics is a mental health counselor. That is a scary thought.

 

CS

 

Good on you Compsports, I saw that comment and was sending you a silent high five.  I would have written something to back you up, but by then I was so upset I couldn't even type straight. :angry: Not sure that  "akdljad  ajdow  a ldnalk j  alajldj"  would have really helped. 

 

And that is scary that he is a counselor.  Though it doesn't surprise me.  I don't think it's a wise move to make comments like that, certainly not good advertising in my opinion...

I am not a medical professional and nothing I say is a medical opinion or meant to be medical advice, please seek a competent and trusted medical professional to consult for all medical decisions.

 

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As I wrote the MIA moderators, they choose their policies and how to apply their policies and they get the level of discussion they get.No one who was snide to any other member, no matter how semantically couched, would get away with that here.If the MIA moderators don't want people posting who know anything about tapering and withdrawal, that's their decision. Yes, it is a shame, given the objectives of the site, but it's a result of their policies: "Open Dialog" for the worst behaved.There are many, many Web sites where comments aren't worth reading because of the prevalence of jerks, MIA may very well be one of them.

 

I have to say Alto, you run this site so well that it almost spoils a person for the rest of the internet.  I know only a few other places I can tolerate online. But I've been taken by surprise by the MIA site; it seemed it started out okay but now... Well I certainly didn't see this latest turn of events coming.  I wasn't reading it religiously though, so, it sounds like there was more going on than I was aware of.

 

And that Open Dialog format is very strange for online.  Someone even posted later on that they had real world experience with it, and that they were making it out to be more grand than it really is.  Seems to me Open Dialog online already has been tried anyway; it's called the yahoo comments section.

 

Not a fun place to spend time, in my opinion.

I am not a medical professional and nothing I say is a medical opinion or meant to be medical advice, please seek a competent and trusted medical professional to consult for all medical decisions.

 

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Hi Unfolding Sky,

 

I totally understand you not wanting to say anything. But I do appreciate the silent high fives.

 

Definitely agree that Alto spoils us with the type of supportive site she runs. It makes adjusting to sites like MIA very difficult. And even on other sites that have nothing to do with AD withdrawal, I cringe big time if I feel the tone is different such as not being supportive of people.

 

And I too saw that comment about how over hyped open dialogue may be.   That person seemed quite knowledgeable so I do wonder about that.

 

Too bad because MIA could be a great site. Oh well.

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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Seems to me Open Dialog online already has been tried anyway; it's called the yahoo comments section.

 

LOL! My sentiments exactly.

 

I had no idea there were so many sympathetic onlookers in that discussion. Thanks, y'all.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/08/gl_honan-conversation/

 

Comment Sections Are Wastelands Ruled by Trolls. Here Are Alternatives.

By Mat Honan 08.23.13

A decade or more ago, Internet publishers entered into what now seems like a collective delusion: That a comments section is a necessary component of a web page. Granted, that notion is a relic of an era predating social media, when there was no effective way to talk publicly about what we read online. But it persists with zombie determination. We’ve bought into the fallacy of comments so completely that they remain nearly universal—and universally terrible. A lot of people have tried to fix them. Yet, as Digg CEO Andrew McLaughlin says, “everyone who runs a commenting system ends up killing themselves or shooting up a post office.” It’s hyperbole, sure, but trying to wrangle online conversations is a messy, frustrating, and typically thankless affair that involves more time than most people have. Even a dedicated team of moderators can hardly compete with legions of trolls and spambots. Nonetheless, lots of people are trying to make you read the comments again—because in those rare moments when comments are great, they are some of the best parts of the Internet.

 

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Shipko's post on MIA was the first time I visited the site and won't be going back. 

From what I saw it is confusing and can't imagine how it could be of any help to anyone.

And Trolls are out in force, I felt agitated in the short while I was there and can imagine

lots of people who are ill will be worse for the experience. 

**I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge.

 

 

Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem)

1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat

2002  effexor. 

Tapered  March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads.

Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013

Restarted taper  Nov 2013  

OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015    :D 

Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014

 

Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg  

 July 2017 30mg.  May 15 2018 25mg

Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. 

 

My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33

 

Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible

 

 

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Shipko's post on MIA was the first time I visited the site and won't be going back. 

From what I saw it is confusing and can't imagine how it could be of any help to anyone.

And Trolls are out in force, I felt agitated in the short while I was there and can imagine

lots of people who are ill will be worse for the experience. 

 

It was very agitating for me as well. 

I am not a medical professional and nothing I say is a medical opinion or meant to be medical advice, please seek a competent and trusted medical professional to consult for all medical decisions.

 

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If you can, follow me through several stories....

 

A child psychiatrist told a story about her daughter, adopted at age 4 from an orphanage in China. At dinner, the new daughter would eat and eat and eat. This is not uncommon for children who have not had a secure source of food. The doctor felt ambivalent and anxious...she knew her daughter was grossly overeating yet she knew trying to control her eating was not the answer. So in time the doctor and her daughter travelled to visit the doctor's best friend. And the friend had a gift for the little girl. Beautiful tins filled with every kind of specialized raisin...chocolate, yogurt, and more. And she told the little girl, " These are all for you, your very own. You can have all you want, anytime you want." And the little girl never overate again.

 

My first round of Prozac was for a true depression. After 9 months of therapy, the pdoc gave me a schedule for going off. I think it was 4 weeks long. But he wrote a script for 1 daily for a year. We were moving. 6 weeks after I stopped therapy, I got the same stomach ache that I had with the depression, although I didn't feel depressed. I wasn't concerned...I thought I must still be depressed, pills would fix it, and I took some more pills, then reduced, then stopped, then stomach ache came back. I followed this random plan over and over until I took every pill..it was 2 or 3 years...and finally the stomach pain never came back. In hindsight, I wonder if it was withdrawal, but it was totally non-traumatic, because I just took a bit more medication.

 

I had a rocky drop most of the way off Wellbutrin, oscillating between withdrawal and the side effect of mania. So then I was determined to rest through the summer. But my new pdoc wanted me to come off soon. So I tried, and was having manageable but real symptoms with a smallish drop. Finally I sat myself down and said to my brain, "There is no hurry to get off this drug. You don't have to be sick. Whenever you need Wellbutrin you can have it." I gave myself little bits with any symptom. It was not totally distress-free, but it wasn't too bad. And I was amazed that I saw the dr. on June 20, on 50 mg, and my last dose was 1.25mg on July 8. I had some issues off, but I think they were from my oxazepam going into interdose withdrawal and my fibromyalgia resurfacing.

 

So I have been trying to regroup on the oxazepam, but I have decided I am just going to try taking 2.5 mg when I need it, and see what happens. I dearly hope if my brain blows up you all will send me sweet emails.

 

Something broke inside me when I read Dr. Shipko's MIA posting. Although so much has been learned, my dream is that we can find some ways to experiment and find a way that people can more quickly and easily come off these horrible drugs.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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Meime I love that story about the little girl and like how you linked it with us

. I've thought about taking tiny bits when symptoms occur but I am so scared of

full blown protracted withdrawal somewhere down the line.

I hope it works for you with the oxazepam, I've read of others doing it that way 

on my travels round the web but don't know how successful they are. 

Keep us updated won't you? 

 

I think Dr Shipko affected a lot of people, me included but I trust Alto's research

and Gias too. My mum used to say "you can live in hope or die in despair" 

SA gives us hope, Dr Shipko leaves us in despair. I'm just glad I found this site first

and not MIA! 

**I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge.

 

 

Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem)

1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat

2002  effexor. 

Tapered  March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads.

Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013

Restarted taper  Nov 2013  

OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015    :D 

Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014

 

Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg  

 July 2017 30mg.  May 15 2018 25mg

Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. 

 

My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33

 

Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible

 

 

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I read Dr. Shipko's post too and it did not make me feel well. 

Of course I would like to believe Alto that he is wrong and everyone does recover in the end.

But now at 6 years off, I still have lingering symptoms. Though it is surely better than the first years, I do not notice much progrssion anymore and the neuropathic symptoms are still too bad to hunt for a job.

Alto admitted recently that she herself is also suffering from WD even after almost 7 years off. So I feel the fear that dr. Shipke is not far from the truth, although one can never know for sure whether further recovery will eventuelly come, even after 6 years or more.

But as people say, we have to choose between hope and despair and we just must hope that time, even more time will be the answer for us...

10 mg Paxil/Seroxat since 2002
several attempts to quit since 2004
Quit c/t again Oktober 2007, in protracted w/d since then
after 3.5 years slight improvement but still on the road

after 6 years pretty much recovered but still some nasty residual sypmtons
after 8.5 years working again on a 90% base and basically functioning normally again!

 

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Claudius, well said.

 

I could not read all of the comments and dialogue to Dr. Shipko's post, but several of us do have permanent iatrogenic neurologic and cardiac conditions caused by the drugs. I don't mean to take away anyone's hope and I'm sure many people are able to take these drugs and stop without problems. But are we not contradicting ourselves to say these drugs are harmful and then turn around and say that everyone heals in time? Why should the FDA make any changes if, indeed, everyone heals or returns to baseline condition?

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

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I'm afraid Dr. Shipko is inclined to make the most dramatic statements, then when questioned will soften them somewhat.

 

His MIA piece seemed to say there is a high risk of permanent damage from going off drugs. However, in a clarification http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4787-mia-blog-entry-by-dr-shipko-on-wd/?p=60372 , he admitted that probably only the very unlucky few have long-term problems, and even then they may recover over time.

 

What he meant to say in his original post is that people need to be prepared for possibly becoming unable to work or otherwise incapacitated for a time because of withdrawal syndrome (or whatever he wants to call it).

 

If he had written his article as a report of some of the worst problems he's encountered in getting people off psychiatric drugs, it would have been much more valuable. Instead, he's muddied the waters by making going off seem highly risky. He also completely mis-spoke in implying that tapering is NOT a safer way of going off drugs -- he knows how to taper, he knows it's safer, and will provide that service.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Claudius, well said.I could not read all of the comments and dialogue to Dr. Shipko's post, but several of us do have permanent iatrogenic neurologic and cardiac conditions caused by the drugs. I don't mean to take away anyone's hope and I'm sure many people are able to take these drugs and stop without problems. But are we not contradicting ourselves to say these drugs are harmful and then turn around and say that everyone heals in time? Why should the FDA make any changes if, indeed, everyone heals or returns to baseline condition?

 

It seems to me that any drug that can even briefly and temporarily disable a person should carry some heavy-duty warnings.

Psychotropic drug history: Pristiq 50 mg. (mid-September 2010 through February 2011), Remeron (mid-September 2010 through January 2011), Lexapro 10 mg. (mid-February 2011 through mid-December 2011), Lorazepam (Ativan) 1 mg. as needed mid-September 2010 through early March 2012

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Hanlon's Razor


Introduction: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1588-introducing-jemima/

 

Success Story: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6263-success-jemima-survives-lexapro-and-dr-dickhead-too/

Please note that I am not a medical professional and my advice is based on personal experience, reading, and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers.

 

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Claudius, well said.I could not read all of the comments and dialogue to Dr. Shipko's post, but several of us do have permanent iatrogenic neurologic and cardiac conditions caused by the drugs. I don't mean to take away anyone's hope and I'm sure many people are able to take these drugs and stop without problems. But are we not contradicting ourselves to say these drugs are harmful and then turn around and say that everyone heals in time? Why should the FDA make any changes if, indeed, everyone heals or returns to baseline condition?

 

It seems to me that any drug that can even briefly and temporarily disable a person should carry some heavy-duty warnings.

 

Totally agree Jemima but most doctors think drugs are harmless and as a result will never disclose any. It is very frightening.

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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