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Dr. Stuart Shipko's controversial views on tapering


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This whole thread completely deflated me after reading what Dr. Shipko said about people on self-help websites who just sit around disabled for years waiting for withdrawal to clear up when it never does.

*I'm not a doctor and don't give medical advice, just personal experience
**Off all meds since Nov. 2014. Mentally & emotionally recovered; physically not
-Dual cold turkeys off TCA & Ativan in Oct 2014. Prescribed from 2011-2014

-All meds were Rxed off-label for an autoimmune illness.  It was a MISDIAGNOSIS, but I did not find out until AFTER meds caused damage.  All med tapers/cold turkeys directed by doctors 

-Nortriptyline May 2012 - Dec 2013. Cold turkey off nortrip & cold switched to desipramine

-Desipramine Jan 2014 - Oct. 29, 2014 (rapid taper/cold turkey)

-Lorazepam 1 mg per night during 2011
-Lorazepam 1 mg per month in 2012 (or less)

-Lorazepam on & off, Dec 2013 through Aug 2014. Didn't exceed 3x a week

-Lorazepam again in Oct. 2014 to help get off of desipramine. Last dose lzpam was 1 mg, Nov. 2, 2014. Immediate paradoxical reactions to benzos after stopping TCAs 

-First muscle/dystonia side effects started on nortriptyline, but docs too stupid to figure it out. On desipramine, muscle tremors & rigidity worsened

-Two weeks after I got off all meds, I developed full-blown TD.  Tardive dystonia, dyskinesia, myoclonic jerks ALL over body, ribcage wiggles, facial tics, twitching tongue & fingers, tremors/twitches of arms, legs, cognitive impairment, throat muscles semi-paralyzed & unable to swallow solid food, brain zaps, ears ring, dizzy, everything looks too far away, insomnia, numbness & electric shocks everywhere when I try to fall asleep, jerk awake from sleep with big, gasping breaths, wake with terrors & tremors, severely depressed.  NO HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, EVER. Meds CREATED it.

-Month 7: hair falling out; no vision improvement; still tardive dystonia; facial & tongue tics returned
-Month 8: back to acute, incl. Grand Mal seizure-like episodes. New mental torment, PGAD, worse insomnia
-Month 9: tardive dystonia worse, dyskinesia returned. Unable to breathe well due to dystonia in stomach, chest, throat
-Month 13: Back to acute, brain zaps back, developed eczema & stomach problems. Left leg no longer works right due to dystonia, meaning both legs now damaged
-7 years off: Huge improvements, incl. improved dystonia

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In fact, this article completely discouraged and scared me. I keep praying I don't come down with akathisia, but now this jerk says I still might. I had come here for hope.

*I'm not a doctor and don't give medical advice, just personal experience
**Off all meds since Nov. 2014. Mentally & emotionally recovered; physically not
-Dual cold turkeys off TCA & Ativan in Oct 2014. Prescribed from 2011-2014

-All meds were Rxed off-label for an autoimmune illness.  It was a MISDIAGNOSIS, but I did not find out until AFTER meds caused damage.  All med tapers/cold turkeys directed by doctors 

-Nortriptyline May 2012 - Dec 2013. Cold turkey off nortrip & cold switched to desipramine

-Desipramine Jan 2014 - Oct. 29, 2014 (rapid taper/cold turkey)

-Lorazepam 1 mg per night during 2011
-Lorazepam 1 mg per month in 2012 (or less)

-Lorazepam on & off, Dec 2013 through Aug 2014. Didn't exceed 3x a week

-Lorazepam again in Oct. 2014 to help get off of desipramine. Last dose lzpam was 1 mg, Nov. 2, 2014. Immediate paradoxical reactions to benzos after stopping TCAs 

-First muscle/dystonia side effects started on nortriptyline, but docs too stupid to figure it out. On desipramine, muscle tremors & rigidity worsened

-Two weeks after I got off all meds, I developed full-blown TD.  Tardive dystonia, dyskinesia, myoclonic jerks ALL over body, ribcage wiggles, facial tics, twitching tongue & fingers, tremors/twitches of arms, legs, cognitive impairment, throat muscles semi-paralyzed & unable to swallow solid food, brain zaps, ears ring, dizzy, everything looks too far away, insomnia, numbness & electric shocks everywhere when I try to fall asleep, jerk awake from sleep with big, gasping breaths, wake with terrors & tremors, severely depressed.  NO HISTORY OF DEPRESSION, EVER. Meds CREATED it.

-Month 7: hair falling out; no vision improvement; still tardive dystonia; facial & tongue tics returned
-Month 8: back to acute, incl. Grand Mal seizure-like episodes. New mental torment, PGAD, worse insomnia
-Month 9: tardive dystonia worse, dyskinesia returned. Unable to breathe well due to dystonia in stomach, chest, throat
-Month 13: Back to acute, brain zaps back, developed eczema & stomach problems. Left leg no longer works right due to dystonia, meaning both legs now damaged
-7 years off: Huge improvements, incl. improved dystonia

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  • 7 months later...

I just noticed that Dr. Shipko wrote a third article posted on September 1, 2015. 

 

https://www.madinamerica.com/2015/09/shooting-the-odds-part-iii/

I was on Effexor beginning in 1993. I believe the highest dose I was ever on was 150 mg. I'm not sure exactly when, but I was put on Trazodone 50 mg to help me sleep due to Effexor side effects. Tried to quit Effexor several times but failed and always got back on. I stayed on 75 mg it until the end of 2012, when I switched to Prozac 20 mg to try to taper off of meds. Tapered off of Prozac over a couple of months, then ended up going to the ER in June of 2013 and getting back on Effexor XR at 37.5 mg.

 

Started having horrible tolerance withdrawal after about 5 months but didn't know what was going on and ended up switching back to Prozac 20 mg some time around October of 2013. Then I tapered off of that again over a few months and went completely off in February of 2013. I felt okay for a month or so, then started having horrible insomnia and panic attacks like never before. I tried to reinstate Prozac at 10 mg, but I ended up having a bad reaction and it made things even worse. I stopped trying to get back on Prozac after taking a low dose for 3 days and never took it again. I continued to take Trazodone 50 mg throughout this time, although it did not help me get more than 4 hours of sleep per night.

 

I finally weaned off of Trazodone a few months ago. I have been experiencing complete nervous system instability since March of 2014, with brain fog 24 hours a day, pain all over at times, agorophobia, akathisia-like symptoms of inner restlessness, complete anhedonia, pronounced cognitive impairment and memory issues. In addition to the protracted withdrawal syndrome symptoms, on January 21, 2015 I was rear-ended by an inattentive driver and am now in constant, chronic pain due to spinal injuries.

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This is exactly what we are talking about here:

By ultra slow, I mean tapering at a rate so slow that there are no discernible symptoms at each dosage cut.  For example, I have a patient who has been on 40 mg of Paxil for 15 years, and we started by cutting down by 1 mg a month.  In this sort of tapering, if there are any withdrawal symptoms on the dosage cuts, we go back to the last comfortable dose, and stabilize before making another cut – which might be a lower dose cut.  It will be years before I know if this is useful or not, but in the meanwhile, my patients are working and living a normal life while tapering instead of suffering and being disabled, as is so often the case.

 

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Shipko says,

"Even with a good attitude and linguistic strategy, going back to the prescribing doctor is often futile.  When confronted with a patient who has any sort of emotional problem – even if it is a side effect of drugs -   the doctors tend to pull out a prescription pad and want to try one drug after the next in hope of being helpful."

 

Aint that the truth.

Thought for the day: Lets stand up, and let’s speak out , together. G Olsen

We have until the 14th. Feb 2018. 

URGENT REQUEST Please consider submitting  for the petition on Prescribed Drug Dependence and Withdrawal currently awaiting its third consideration at the Scottish Parliament. You don't even have to be from Scotland. By clicking on the link below you can read some of the previous submissions but be warned many of them are quite harrowing.

http://www.parliament.scot/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01651   

Please tell them about your problems taking and withdrawing from antidepressants and/or benzos.

Send by email to petitions@parliament.scot and quote PE01651 in the subject heading. Keep to a maximum of 3 sides of A4 and you can't name for legal reasons any doctor you have consulted. Tell them if you wish to remain anonymous. We need the numbers to help convince the committee members we are not isolated cases. You have until mid February. Thank you

Recovering paxil addict

None of the published articles shed light on what ssri's ... actually do or what their hazards might be. Healy 2013. 

This is so true, with anything you get on these drugs, dependance, tapering, withdrawal symptoms, side effects, just silent. And if there is something mentioned then their is a serious disconnect between what is said and reality! 

  "Every time I read of a multi-person shooting, I always presume that person had just started a SSRI or had just stopped."  Dr Mosher. Me too! 

Over two decades later, the number of antidepressant prescriptions a year is slightly more than the number of people in the Western world. Most (nine out of 10) prescriptions are for patients who faced difficulties on stopping, equating to about a tenth of the population. These patients are often advised to continue treatment because their difficulties indicate they need ongoing treatment, just as a person with diabetes needs insulin. Healy 2015

I believe the ssri era will soon stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine. Healy 2015

Let people help people ... in a natural, kind, non-addictive (and non-big pharma) way. J Broadley 2017

 

 

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Just came back from the Doctor. A new one shes straight out of school 31 yrs old.  I gave her my Rxisk report today. I have seen her before as shes my new Doctor since about 6 months ago but shes never said any of my side effects have anything to do with Medication. However 1 thing I do give her credit with unlike my other doctors is she never told me to go back on them and shes listens not making feel crazy. However I can tell shes out to lunch with WD issues. Anyway better than the tyriant I used to see.

Was on 30mg (Lexapro) for 7-8yrs20mg for 3 months (This was my choice my Doc wanted me to drop much faster)15 mg 2week10mg 2 weeks 5 mg 1 week0 since August 24th . PPI Dexlant  30 mg taper has begun. Cutting 20% currently.  using zantac as needed.  Benzo is currently 0.10mg 

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  • 5 months later...

Mort, if she ends up learning from you, maybe she'll become a mini-evangelist. It sickening how little-recognized the side effects are. If all doctors knew, much suffering would be averted.

 

I re-read old emails with a shrink (again). I was on an epilepsy drug and Effexor, which is like being killed by a firing squad and being hanged at the same time for good measure. She prescribed abilify (add guillotine to previous), and I told her on the day I went pick it up from the pharmacy that I was doing so. The next day I said my heart rate was 100 beats per minute and I felt like I was in fight or flight mode. Soon, I was telling her that this was unbearable (which is what people with akathisia say), and I added that I am not given to hyperbole. (Normally I would say something is close to unbearable, if I am in fact bearing it.) I to,d her I was running up and down the staircase, had a tremor, and "felt like I was jumping out of my skin" (which is also what people with akathisia say). I went to emergency on the weekend because I had a troubling  and painful infection arise quickly. They gave me cipro for that (which can cause psychosis, btw). I told them also that I had "ptsd"* and couldn't stop pacing, and my record shows that I told them I was on Abilify. They gave me some Ativan, which did help, but didn't they clue in to akathisia.

 

*that was one of my wrong diagnoses.

2009: Cancer hospital said I had adjustment disorder because I thought they were doing it wrong. Their headshrinker prescribed Effexor, and my life set on a new course. I didn't know what was ahead, like a passenger on Disneyland's Matterhorn, smiling and waving as it climbs...clink, clink, clink.

2010: Post surgical accidental Effexor discontinuation by nurses, masked by intravenous Dilaudid. (The car is balanced at the top of the track.) I get home, pop a Vicodin, and ...

Whooosh...down, down, down, down, down...goes the trajectory of my life, up goes my mood and tendency to think everything is a good idea.
2012: After the bipolar jig was up, now a walking bag of unrelated symptoms, I went crazy on Daytrana (the Ritalin skin patch by Noven), because ADHD was a perfect fit for a bag of unrelated symptoms. I was prescribed Effexor for the nervousness of it, and things got neurological. An EEG showed enough activity to warrant an epilepsy diagnosis rather than non-epileptic ("psychogenic") seizures.

:o 2013-2014: Quit everything and got worse. I probably went through DAWS: dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome. I drank to not feel, but I felt a lot: dread, fear, regret, grief: an utter sense of total loss of everything worth breathing about, for almost two years.

I was not suicidal but I wanted to be dead, at least dead to the experience of my own brain and body.

2015: I  began to recover after adding virgin coconut oil and organic grass-fed fed butter to a cup of instant coffee in the morning.

I did it hoping for mental acuity and better memory. After ten days of that, I was much better, mood-wise. Approximately neutral.

And, I experienced drowsiness. I could sleep. Not exactly happy, I did 30 days on Wellbutrin, because it had done me no harm in the past. 

I don't have the DAWS mood or state of mind. It never feel like doing anything if it means standing up.

In fact, I don't especially like moving. I'm a brain with a beanbag body.   :unsure:

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  • 3 months later...

I am not a fan of this doctor, and when I was in full withdrawal and read his article, it almost pushed me over the edge to suicide - given his claim that the damage may be permanent.

 

I do not believe this for a second. My symptoms could not have been worse, including the akathisia (and many, many others), and they have almost all resolved. I'm still improving and know they will all disappear in time (mainly just some brain fuzziness), and without interference from other psychoactive drugs. The brain will recover and needs time, and my withdrawal symptoms now are totally bearable.

 

He seems to claim he's seen people who have not recovered from symptoms such as akathisia - yet at the same time mentions that he's treating them with benzos as he can't bear to watch them suffer. My question is: how on earth can he claim people do not recover, when he is actively prescribing further drugs and not observing the recovery process? And how long he is monitoring people for, to make the claim that they will not recover? Several years, without drug interference? Doesn't seem so.

 

He also states that forcing yourself to exercise will help you to recover. If exercise triggers symptoms, which it seems to for some/many, it will not help. I think many folk on this site have realised that. It may sound like a relatively small cricitism of his work, but to my mind it further questions his credibility.

 

For those in severe withdrawal - don't listen to him! The brain is neuroplastic, even when we are older, and will recover. Baylissa Frederick's book 'Recovery and Renewal' was like a bible to me through the worst times (she will also provide phone/skype counselling for withdrawal). She has seen countless people in withdrawal and is 100% more positive (realistically so) about recovery. What she says concurs with my own experience and everything I've read about brain neuroplasticity.

 

Don't listen to Shipko!

Sufferer of moderate ME/CFS since 2005

Started 20mg Citalopram in March 2008 due to bereavement

Was fine since then with no adverse effects or depression - so decided to taper off

Came off it in March 2014 after a five-month taper, which I thought was a long time

Experienced a month of uncharacteristic depression in April 2014

Two months feeling fine

In June 2014 return of depression then an overnight physical crash leaving me debilitated in July

Tried to take moclobemide at low dose for 2 weeks in July but severe reaction

Housebound since then, ME now severe

No meds taken

Female, 38 years old

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Don't listen to Shipko!

 

I heard from another member that Shipko's pronouncements on the permanence of disability were very upsetting. I wonder why we even have such dismal fare at all when our message is one of hope and hanging on till it gets better (which for the majority happens sooner rather than later. There are those who do take longer it seems.) I wanted to say something about the exercise: only gentle exercise did not make symptoms worse, anything too strenuous brought on waves of upset. But there does come a time when you have to push a little to pop up into the next plane of healing, you cannot stay glued in one place. I don't know how one tells when the time is ripe (and I am only talking about those of us with very severe autonomic disturbances.) Those with slow managed tapers might have less upset and be less influenced by heavy workouts.

 

I just knew when I had to move a little harder and though it was hard at first, it was just the right thing to do at the right time. But do it too soon and you are set back.

 

Shipko has an account here but have not seen him log on lately. In fact, not since Jan 2015. He is obviously too busy to spend any time reading here. Too bad, but what do you expect. We are on opposite sides of the prescription pad after all.

What happened and how I arrived here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4243-cymbaltawithdrawal5600-introduction/#entry50878

 

July 2016 I have decided to leave my story here at SA unfinished. I have left my contact information in my profile for anyone who wishes to talk to me. I have a posting history spanning nearly 4 years and 3000+ posts all over the site.

 

Thank you to all who participated in my recovery. I'll miss talking to you but know that I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines, suffering and rejoicing with you in spirit, as you go on in your journey.

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How is the above update encouraging? He doesn't say anything to contradict his previous conclusions posted in this article:

http://www.madinamerica.com/2013/08/ssri-discontinuation-is-even-more-problematic-than-acknowledged/

 

Note: ok, looks like I am about a year late in finding Dr.Shipko's articles and all the discussions on SA about them. Hmmm.... he really does strike a raw nerve. I can't help but wonder: If I have to suffer for years stuck in this nightmare, then maybe I should go back on meds, and put myself out of my misery right now.

 

He is talking about very extreme cases.   But that aside, your fears are understandable but you still don't know what will happen.   And if you go back on meds, you might have a worse experience.

 

By the way, I am dealing with a similar situation with pap therapy intolerance.  I fear if I don't get this issue straightened out that the cognitive damage I suffered will at some point become irreversible.   But simply letting that fear overtake me is just not helpful even though understandable.

 

What makes one an extreme case?  How do we know if we are one?  Am I an extreme case and if I am how can we tell... does the 8+ years of waiting make it extreme do the extreme cold turkey symptoms make it extreme.. it is both?  What is an extreme case and if it is both the above... can he say never to me with a straight face when there are really no other choices for me at this point as all drugs cause a bad reaction?  

How can it be he has never found a patient who can't take drugs... is my situation really that rare?  I wonder.  Just as he doubts those of us here who seem extreme perhaps to him... (I am not sure of the criteria)  may recover in time.. I doubt he understands all the ins and outs of wd. I sure hope  he is wrong about me at least... How long has he waited to see his people recover before drugging them?  I have a lot of questions and no answers. 

 

This whole thread completely deflated me after reading what Dr. Shipko said about people on self-help websites who just sit around disabled for years waiting for withdrawal to clear up when it never does.

It sure hit a nerve with me too tho I am long past taking what any doctor says as the truth of the situation.. to me he is just another doctor saying what he thinks.  I got a million of em... all saying what they think lined up in my past...some to come I am sure.  How I take what they say sure has changed since I hit the wall on psych drugs... all attempts made to get me back to balance by drugging me made me worse they failed.  For me this is the only game in town and sink or swim I can't take the drugs. He does not have a very nice idea of what actually goes on here while it painful for him to watch people in his care live in wd it is also painful to watch people on here living in wd... seems he does not have the brass to tolerate what we are forced to live day in day out... and help others with if we can in some small way.  Once again it hits full force how unnatural this experience is when a well meaning doctor with some empathy can't bear to watch it go down.  It is good to have a doc with empathy I guess but in this case real understanding would trump empathy.. some of my docs were empathetic to and they gave me more drugs to try year after year till my body said no more.  It will be interesting if and when some of his patients turn out to be like me and can't tolerate any further drugging... I wonder what he will do with them then... maybe he will send them here to wait out there lives hoping for healing... as what choices does he have it is pills or nothing right?  When all you have is a hammer... I guess it is the same old problem all over again.  Now this is not his doing he did not create this mess we are all in...but he does have some power so I do applaud him for speaking the truth as he sees it as it is a start maybe other doctors will trust him on some of this I hope they don't follow his lead on everything.  It actually sounds like watching all this is making him depressed and I actually think that to be a healthy reaction for any human being when they see what people in wd suffer.  Knowing the small truths about this has that affect on people.  I wonder where he will go from here in 10 years more of watching patients how will his ideas change it will be interesting to see. 

 

Shipko says,

"Even with a good attitude and linguistic strategy, going back to the prescribing doctor is often futile.  When confronted with a patient who has any sort of emotional problem – even if it is a side effect of drugs -   the doctors tend to pull out a prescription pad and want to try one drug after the next in hope of being helpful."

 

Aint that the truth.

Yes it is the truth completely agree but is it all really their fault they do the best they can.. I wonder if we did a survey here to add to the knowledge base of things we want people including doctors to know about withdrawal... could we help turn this around educate since they are coming here anyway to learn.. can we see to it they learn what we think are the important things... what are the important things to each of us would make a good topic for another thread.. what do you want doctors to know about withdrawal... we have been waiting for doctors to learn... how are they going to do that?  who is going to teach them?  what do we want them to learn?  If nobody seems to know about it and then those of use who think we know something maybe should dig deep on our best days and see if we can come up with anything decent... it could help. What do you SA people think?

 

I am not a fan of this doctor, and when I was in full withdrawal and read his article, it almost pushed me over the edge to suicide - given his claim that the damage may be permanent.

 

I do not believe this for a second. My symptoms could not have been worse, including the akathisia (and many, many others), and they have almost all resolved. I'm still improving and know they will all disappear in time (mainly just some brain fuzziness), and without interference from other psychoactive drugs. The brain will recover and needs time, and my withdrawal symptoms now are totally bearable.

 

He seems to claim he's seen people who have not recovered from symptoms such as akathisia - yet at the same time mentions that he's treating them with benzos as he can't bear to watch them suffer. My question is: how on earth can he claim people do not recover, when he is actively prescribing further drugs and not observing the recovery process? And how long he is monitoring people for, to make the claim that they will not recover? Several years, without drug interference? Doesn't seem so.

 

He also states that forcing yourself to exercise will help you to recover. If exercise triggers symptoms, which it seems to for some/many, it will not help. I think many folk on this site have realised that. It may sound like a relatively small cricitism of his work, but to my mind it further questions his credibility.

 

For those in severe withdrawal - don't listen to him! The brain is neuroplastic, even when we are older, and will recover. Baylissa Frederick's book 'Recovery and Renewal' was like a bible to me through the worst times (she will also provide phone/skype counselling for withdrawal). She has seen countless people in withdrawal and is 100% more positive (realistically so) about recovery. What she says concurs with my own experience and everything I've read about brain neuroplasticity.

 

Don't listen to Shipko!

I have not read here book I want to know if you can tell me what is the longest you or she has ever seen a person have windows and waves and still go on to heal?  Please don't worry about hurting my feelings I want to know the longest I am all for continuing the path I am on since I have no choice as I can't take drugs.. I just want to know if you would please tell me. 

If you have this information it would be even better for me to see it for myself and digest the particulars of this case myself I have been reading these sites a long long long time and have knack for digesting histories rather solidly and quickly... I get the gist of it fast when I am in my best of windows.  

thanks 

 

peace all B

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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I went back and reread everything Dr. Shipko has written and I just don't see the negativity that others see and that I thought I saw initially with my earlier posts.   I think he is just being very honest about the issues which I greatly appreciate about him.

 

He seems to understand that a micro taper like Rhi has suggested is a very good option particularly for people who have been on the meds long term.  I also liked the fact in his last article, he suggested rehabilitation type strategies which make sense since I have found that having psych med damage is like having a TBI.

 

I don't agree with his strategy of using benzos for relief but heck, we're not going to find any doctor who is perfect regarding advice they offer regarding psych med withdrawal

 

CS

 

BTDT, I can't take meds either so any reinstatement is not an option for also.

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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I have just started to look into what Shipko actually said and it will be slow going as site search does not go back more than a year reliably.

 

In this post, Alto says this;

 

 

As Drs. Shipko, David Healy, and Peter Breggin have observed, there are a small number of people who have difficulty tapering at any rate and may never be able to go completely off. I spoke to a knowledgeable doctor recently about this and he was confident that eventually he would be able to find the right "bridge" for these people. (Prozac works as a bridge off antidepressants for most people.)

 

Alto, do you remember who this was and do they still feel this way? Do you have any new info to add? The post was from 2012. (I don't even rem what I had for bf yest, so you may not rem either)

 

Oh how I wish all the Shipko stuff was in the same place, or the tags were correct (or even used at all! I am still up for the task of editing them, hint hint).

 

I know there's more but SEVERAL people report that what they have read of Shipko's pronouncements cause them extreme upset. Is it all here or is some of it on MIA? I'd be interested to know how he feels NOW and if he is still successfully using benzos to dampen the effects of AD withdrawal.

 

People are reacting to something, I know I have read it and I have not found it yet. If anyone has, please quote and attribute it here, if you will. I might be 'post blind'.

 

His use of benzos is probably helpful for those who started off the drugs too quickly, got wd syndrome and are given the benzos to quell the sx until they stabilize. Or he may be using it to get them off quicker, leave them on it until they have been on it long enough and then taper them slowly off the benzo. Is there anybody who has ever reported being treated thusly by him?

 

That's what we really need are first person stories in the absence of Shipko actually coming here and reporting on his protocol success himself. (Fat chance of that happening.)

 

And oh dear, I may have muddied the waters here, the topic I referenced is the context of BENZODIAZEPINE (XANAX) withdrawal, not AD wd. But they are mixed in there.

 

More research......

What happened and how I arrived here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4243-cymbaltawithdrawal5600-introduction/#entry50878

 

July 2016 I have decided to leave my story here at SA unfinished. I have left my contact information in my profile for anyone who wishes to talk to me. I have a posting history spanning nearly 4 years and 3000+ posts all over the site.

 

Thank you to all who participated in my recovery. I'll miss talking to you but know that I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines, suffering and rejoicing with you in spirit, as you go on in your journey.

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Well, DUH! The referenced article was named in the first post and it WAS on MadInAmerica (linked again here).

 

There are 2 crucial concepts in the article that I believe need explanation and emphasizing because they have everything to do (I think ) with people's frustrations in dealing with their doctors regarding the antidepressants they get put on (and the other crap piled on to either make them work 'better' or to treat the inevitable side effects they create.)

 

 

The problem starts with nomenclature.  The citizen scientists [that's us!] of the Internet have labeled the problem ‘protracted withdrawal.’  To physicians, withdrawal is a phenomenon that starts when the blood level of a substance drops to near zero and persists for a week or two.  The concept of ‘protracted withdrawal’ is inconsistent with the very definition of withdrawal.  So when a patient tells their doctor that they have ‘protracted withdrawal’ the doctor draws a blank.

 

Yep, they get the concepts surrounding how drugs act drilled into them and that knowledge is cemented by those 24-48 hour shifts they spend on duty in various hospital specialty areas during their internships and residencies. There is no precedence for the way psych drugs really act and I am sure there will never be (until the likes of us and more Healys and Breggins and others flood the scene.)

 

To a doctor there is no such thing as protracted withdrawal. Perhaps we should ever and always refer to it as "discontinuation syndrome" or perhaps "rebound effect" (docs are familiar with that term as it refers to the use of nasal sprays: you stop their chronic use and oft times the rebound congestion leaves you mouth breathing forever it seems. And stopping PPIs seems to do the same thing. The body gets used to something in its system and when you yank it away you see in reality what it has been doing all along is rebelling against chemical meddling with a vengeance.)

 

The other term in the doctor's mind is this "tardive dysphoria" concept. Shipko again:

 

 

What I have observed is that the ‘withdrawal’ symptoms occur while patients are on a steady dosage of the drug, shortly after stopping the drug and weeks or months after stopping the drugsThe only precedent for this type of presentation is tardive dyskinesia (TD).  Tardive refers to symptoms that occur later and dyskinesia refers to movement disorder. TD is generally associated with antipsychotic medication, and is also a manufacturer labeled side effect of the SSRIs.  TD occurs while on antipsychotics, primarily occurs shortly after stopping them, and may occur months or even longer after stopping the drugs.  With the SSRIs, it is not so much a tardive movement disorder as a tardive problem with akathisia, a sort of constant restlessness or agitation that is accompanied by an agitated anxious/depressed state.  It is a very  uncomfortable sensation.

 

Of note here here is that he does not state specifically that not everyone gets this. But from that he slides right into:

 

 

It is generally unappreciated that people who stop SSRIs often develop a new onset of severe depression or anxiety months after stopping the drugs.  It took me years before I realized that this is what was occurring, but this seems to be fairly common.  Patients often did well for months, only to develop fairly acute profound states of anxiety and or depression.  The anxiety and/or depression was not a relapse, because the patients never had these symptoms before starting the drugs.  Because people are thinking of the discontinuation problem as withdrawal, they are not considering the later onset symptoms as related to stopping the drugs.  What is somewhat frightening to consider is that patients with tardive dyskinesia sometimes do not manifest symptoms for years after stopping antipsychotics.  Will this be the fate of those who stop SSRIs?  This won’t be known for a long time, particularly if nobody is doing careful research on the topic.

 

Ah, the WHOLE quote really needs to be in red ink, bold letters and the equivalent of the 70s internet type of flashing banner in contrasting neon colors. It's the tardive dysphoria that happens to many of us. The "tardive" word may come into the mind of the doc (and us) and it's all downhill from there.

 

It is entirely possible that even using the term "tardive" sets up a quite dismal outlook in people's (doctor's) minds because after all, it is most associated with movement disorders seen to develop after long term use of antipsychotics and some of those don't seem to go away for a long time.

 

But our "late blooming" perturbations of feelings, emotions, and thoughts after psych drug use do eventually return to a more "normal" state after SOME period of recovery the longer we stay off the drugs. I am nearing the start of year 4 of recovery from a precipitous stopping of 3 powerful drugs and I had an epiphany last night.

 

We recoverees often go through a period where we cannot watch tv or read. Then, we may be able to watch a bit of TV but any show with violent content can really affect us badly. I was stuck watching HGTV and "Pawn Stars" till my eyeballs bled, anything else started up waves of bad feelings. I remember that year, on History Channel (where Pawn Stars airs) there were previews for that viking show beginning that fall and I'd have to have the remote at the ready to mute that part and turn my head. Just hearing the music was enough to set me off.

 

That's all gone now it seems. I watched the entire rerun of Jaws last night, even the last scene with sharkie doing his thing and I did not flinch once. I deliberately did it to see what my internal reaction would be, and it was the usual "oh gross!!!" as it would have been pre-AD withdrawal.

 

So to sum all this up, I think we need to scrub Shipko's dire pronouncements from the site, they do little to give hope to the ones beginning their period of suffering and everything to discourage them. They can stick in your mind and fester there....

 

I'll cast the first vote.

What happened and how I arrived here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4243-cymbaltawithdrawal5600-introduction/#entry50878

 

July 2016 I have decided to leave my story here at SA unfinished. I have left my contact information in my profile for anyone who wishes to talk to me. I have a posting history spanning nearly 4 years and 3000+ posts all over the site.

 

Thank you to all who participated in my recovery. I'll miss talking to you but know that I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines, suffering and rejoicing with you in spirit, as you go on in your journey.

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Where as I am thankful that Dr Shipko is acknowledging and speaking out about some of the fallout from psych meds, I too have fallen back to a period of "I may as well end this right now" thinking - every time I have read one of his articles. They are the articles on MIA linked to on SA.

I am one of the tardive/protracted variety who lives in bed. I understand his opinion to be that not only will I likely not get better but the fact that I am totally disabled and unable to get out and about in itself will prevent me from improving? I do acknowledge that this experience has provided me with a pair of grey/blue tinted glasses that may effect my interpretation of what he writes. I look for hope, but inevitably the worst case scenarios jump out at me.

I guess old habits die hard and a lifetime of believing that the professionals know better still rears itself in me sometimes. I have to keep reminding myself how very wrong they have been about so many things regarding psych meds.

 

Thanks picchy for your post above, it pulled me a little way out of the black shipko hole I tumbled into.

Zoloft 8yrs CT (for anxiety) Crashed few months later, diagnosed major depression. Reinstating did not work.

Several poorly tolerated short term meds including Effexor, Mirtazapine. Eventually stabilised on Lexapro.

Sometime in the 90's bipolar diagnosis added and seroquel. CT'd from that quickly as I didn't think I fit the diagnosis.

 

Lexapro 5yrs? (9 month taper 2010) - Diagnosed ADD shortly after becoming psych med free.

Dexamphetamine- 2011-July 2014 (6 month taper)

Crashed late 2014: over sensitive to light, sound, people, usual foods, caffeine and life.

{July 2014- quit smoking, Dec 2014 quit caffeine, chocolate, sugar, processed foods, don't drink}

Supplements: Magnesium Citrate, Vit C, Pro-biotic.

Feb 2015-current: intolerance to minor stimulation, terror, anxiety, doom, delirium, anhedonia, insomnia, lethargy, weakness, bodily tingling, numbness, ticks and jolts, tinnitus, back pain, gastric disturbance, facial pain, ticks and tingling, EHS.........

Oct 2015- developed frozen shoulder-ongoing

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Nextra,

 

Love the 'Shipko hole' comment, lol

 

If you don't have a topic in Intros perhaps you would start one so we can get to know you better?

 

He is farther ahead than most, but I don't like the 'hole' people may find themselves in their thinking and never question where it came from.

What happened and how I arrived here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4243-cymbaltawithdrawal5600-introduction/#entry50878

 

July 2016 I have decided to leave my story here at SA unfinished. I have left my contact information in my profile for anyone who wishes to talk to me. I have a posting history spanning nearly 4 years and 3000+ posts all over the site.

 

Thank you to all who participated in my recovery. I'll miss talking to you but know that I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines, suffering and rejoicing with you in spirit, as you go on in your journey.

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Where as I am thankful that Dr Shipko is acknowledging and speaking out about some of the fallout from psych meds, I too have fallen back to a period of "I may as well end this right now" thinking - every time I have read one of his articles. They are the articles on MIA linked to on SA.

I am one of the tardive/protracted variety who lives in bed. I understand his opinion to be that not only will I likely not get better but the fact that I am totally disabled and unable to get out and about in itself will prevent me from improving? I do acknowledge that this experience has provided me with a pair of grey/blue tinted glasses that may effect my interpretation of what he writes. I look for hope, but inevitably the worst case scenarios jump out at me.

I guess old habits die hard and a lifetime of believing that the professionals know better still rears itself in me sometimes. I have to keep reminding myself how very wrong they have been about so many things regarding psych meds.

 

Thanks picchy for your post above, it pulled me a little way out of the black shipko hole I tumbled into.

Nextra,

I'm sorry you are suffering. May I ask for how long ? What are your remaining symptoms? Have you improved at all?

Lexapro: started in 2002 at 10 mgs.

Ambien: started as a as needed sleep aid in 2010.

Quit Lexapro cold turkey in June 20015 due to contributing to low sodium issues.

Restarted Lexapro in late November for a week (only 5 mgs) but quit due to dizziness side effects. Side effects worsened for 3 weeks until

12/24/15: Protracted WD hit, experienced extreme anxiety, insomnia lack of full concentration and social challenges.

Reinstated Lexapro on 1/1/16 at 5 mgs. Increased per Dr to 7.5 MG. Tapered off Lexapro in March 2016.

Started 50MG of Seroquel in late January 2016 for bedtime to help in eliminate Ambien. Tapered off both Seroquel and Ambien in March 2016.

2/14/16: Prescribed both Remeron (15 MG) and Temazapam (15 MG) for sleep. Also use Klonopin and Ambien again in place of Temazapam to avoid addiction. However I did take Temazapam 60 straight days

6/15/16: Stopped use of all benzo's and now use Belsomra 1-2 times a week. Still on 15 MG of Remeron

10/11/16: Off all psych medications

 

After kindling, trying to regain my strength suffering from severe mental and physical fatigue.

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Where as I am thankful that Dr Shipko is acknowledging and speaking out about some of the fallout from psych meds, I too have fallen back to a period of "I may as well end this right now" thinking - every time I have read one of his articles. They are the articles on MIA linked to on SA.

I am one of the tardive/protracted variety who lives in bed. I understand his opinion to be that not only will I likely not get better but the fact that I am totally disabled and unable to get out and about in itself will prevent me from improving? I do acknowledge that this experience has provided me with a pair of grey/blue tinted glasses that may effect my interpretation of what he writes. I look for hope, but inevitably the worst case scenarios jump out at me.

I guess old habits die hard and a lifetime of believing that the professionals know better still rears itself in me sometimes. I have to keep reminding myself how very wrong they have been about so many things regarding psych meds.

 

Thanks picchy for your post above, it pulled me a little way out of the black shipko hole I tumbled into.

 

I have spent a good amount of time in bed in the 8 years I have been living this.  I wonder what stage your at?  Last bout of bed was within the last 8 wks.. a wk in bed was my inspiration to try the supplement route big... likely went too big and did that wrong too... I do most things wrong to start...but desperate people will do desperate things.  

 

If you were to share some more information maybe I would have some ideas of things you could try... maybe maybe not.  I have learned a lot from other people who have lived this chances are it could be the same for you.  

 

I completely understand the grey blue glasses too.  The longer it takes to go away the less I believe the time heals all theory... Alto is the longest I have heard of to date healing at the 9 year mark. I am not sure if waiting only is the way to overcome this.  I have tried a lot of things and I guess I am not done trying yet.  Some of it may help you... it could maybe. 

 

There have been times all I could do was be in bed... yet I have to eat to live and go to the bathroom and wash myself... those things to me constitute being out of bed... it is a start wherever you are just start from there. 

 

Things to do in bed... deep relaxation videos if you have a laptop.. or phone... they are on utube... getting to a state of deep relaxation was the first thing I noticed helped me the more I do it the better I feel usually.  Tapping or EFT emotional freedom therapy uses accupressure points and talking to help you over come things... I like the guy in the red shirt EFT for depression also on utube... 

 

Those are two things I did while in bed... if the light bothers you cover the windows in tinfoil... by a fan for the sweating ... heating pad for the freezing... a maid would be nice... but likely not possible... epsom salt baths... electolytes for babies I could not toerate the adult verson... ensure for times you can't eat. 

 

I wish you peace

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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  • 1 month later...

Much more encouraging. Describes a successful super slow micro taper.

 

http://www.madinamerica.com/2015/09/shooting-the-odds-part-iii/

 

 

 

September 1, 2015

My prior MIA blog posts have largely addressed the problems that can occur when people try to stop taking serotonin-related antidepressants, particularly  after taking them for a long period of time. I wanted to share a few updated thoughts that I have on the problem.

Protracted withdrawal needs a better name.  The term “protracted withdrawal” does describe the time sequence  of symptoms after stopping serotonin based antidepressants, but is a poor choice of language when discussing this with your doctor.  Medicine does not recognize such a thing as protracted withdrawal.  Withdrawal is considered something that goes away within days or weeks of stopping a drug.  If you are going to talk to your doctor about these sorts of problems, then it is best to describe the problem as symptoms that happened after stopping the drugs.  I realize that many physicians will declare these new symptoms the start of a new mental illness – usually bipolar – but calling it protracted withdrawal just confuses the doctor.  Although I refer to protracted withdrawal as drug neurotoxicity, it is still a bad idea to give the doctor a diagnosis rather than to present symptoms.  It’s just the way that doctors work.  They want to make the diagnosis and often feel put off by patients who present with a complaint and a diagnosis.

On the other hand, doctors are increasingly influenced by information from the Internet which is told to them by patients.  They generally do not want to see a lot of printed off pages, as there is no time to really read them during the office visit.  Even with a good attitude and linguistic strategy, going back to the prescribing doctor is often futile.  When confronted with a patient who has any sort of emotional problem – even if it is a side effect of drugs -   the doctors tend to pull out a prescription pad and want to try one drug after the next in hope of being helpful.

The consequences of reinstating the same drug or starting similar drugs are highly variable.  Sometimes the patient returns to a comfortable baseline and sometimes they get incrementally worse with each new drug.  Even when reinstatement results in resolution of symptoms, it is unavoidable for the patient to be thinking about how uncomfortable it is to be taking a drug that created the problem in the first place.  Obviously whatever damage the drug did before is going to be increased over time.  So what will the next 10 years do to the nervous system?

Problems related to stopping SSRIs after long term use are becoming more common in my practice.  People on the SSRIs for years with no noticeable symptoms often decide that they don’t need the drug and decide to stop taking it.  After all, they were told that the drug isn’t addicting, and were never warned that there could be problems stopping it.

Experiencing a fairly rapid and severe ‘akathisia’ like syndrome, usually  a few months after the last dose is fairly common.  I put the word akathisia in quotes because it’s really difficult to describe exactly what it is that happens and the full toxicity syndrome has not been formally described.  Akathisia is probably the best term to describe what is going on, however, akathisia is primarily considered a movement disorder that comes with a subjective feeling of inner restlessness.    Sometimes I do see the typical pacing and motor restlessness of akathisia, but not usually.  Like akathisia, the discomfort is extreme and impairing.  In fact, the SSRI toxicity related symptoms appear much more uncomfortable than even serious anxiety or depression unrelated to SSRIs.  Some describe it as anxiety and some as depression, but typically it has a fairly abrupt onset and is worse than anything previously experienced.  The patients seem to be unable to describe it except to say that it is extremely uncomfortable – crawling out of my skin.  My suspicion is that patients are reluctant to talk about how they feel because they are having suicidal thoughts and fear the possibility of involuntary hospitalization.  Akathisia is probably the best term currently in use to describe the syndrome of late onset and persistent withdrawal symptoms, but  these symptoms need to be better categorized, studied, and described.

The phenomenon of late emerging, intractable withdrawal related symptoms occurring after a period of months with no problems seems to be widely recognized by patients, but has never been studied and is unknown to physicians.  Increasingly it is the tardive, or late onset withdrawal related problems that bring patients to my office.

Often patients are down on themselves because they believe that their problems relate to having tapered too rapidly. It seems like a lot of the same problems occur in people who stop slowly and those who stop abruptly.  That having been said, I have been doing some ultra slow tapering.  In my last blog I wrote about a man stopping Effexor after a 14 year exposure. We tapered from 150 mg to 0 mg from 2012 until early 2015.  This patient never had any acute withdrawal symptoms, no symptoms after stopping the last dose and no late onset symptoms 7 months after the last dose.

Since there are so few tools to use for people who want to stop the serotonin related antidepressants, ultra slow tapering might be useful.  By ultra slow, I mean tapering at a rate so slow that there are no discernible symptoms at each dosage cut.  For example, I have a patient who has been on 40 mg of Paxil for 15 years, and we started by cutting down by 1 mg a month.  In this sort of tapering, if there are any withdrawal symptoms on the dosage cuts, we go back to the last comfortable dose, and stabilize before making another cut – which might be a lower dose cut.  It will be years before I know if this is useful or not, but in the meanwhile, my patients are working and living a normal life while tapering instead of suffering and being disabled, as is so often the case.

Patients who are having toxic withdrawal related symptoms almost always want to know how long it will last.  There is no good answer for this question, but the time frame is going to be in the realm of months and years and not days or weeks.  This is an important issue for the person who is highly debilitated by symptoms.  If a person is disabled and unable to function at work or to socialize, then it is probably not a great idea to wait indefinitely for it to go away.  Reinstatement of the drug, or use of a benzodiazepine – while not ideal, may be worth the risks.

I note that a lot of people are seeking the “antidote” for the withdrawal related symptoms.  Reinstatement and benzodiazepines can help with symptoms, but do not reverse the process.  As it stands there is no antidote, and absent an understanding of the pathology involved, this is unlikely.  Perhaps one day the problem will be studied and understood in such a way that an antidote can be found that will take away all of the withdrawal related problems.

In the meantime, I want to emphasize that rehabilitative related treatment is useful in improving symptoms.  Recently I saw a person who had to drop out of college for the semester because they could not concentrate enough to do the computer programming needed for classes.  As a rehabilitation strategy, the person was encouraged to do some similar type of programming every day.  It was a slow start, but it looks like this person will resume school next month.  Staying in bed and resting in hope that the problem will go away may not be as good as forcing oneself to engage in exercise, socialization, proper diet, meditation, spiritual activities and work like activities.

Edited by brassmonkey
Increased Font for Readability

2005-2008: Effexor; 1/2008 Tapered 3 months, then quit. 7/2008-2009 Reinstated Effexor (crying spells at start of new job.)
2009-3/2013: Switched to Pristiq 50 mg then 100 mg
3/2013: Switched to Lexapro 10mg. Cut down to 5 mg. CT for 2 weeks then reinstated for 6 weeks
8/2013-8/2014: Tapering Lexapro (Lots of withdrawal symptoms)
11/2014 -8/2015: Developed severe insomnia and uncontrollable daily crying spells
12/2014-6/2015: Tried Ambien, Klonopin, Ativan, Lunesta, Sonata, Trazadone, Seroquel, Rameron, Gabapentin - Developed Anxiety disorder, PTSD, and Psychogenic Myoclonus
7/2015-1/2016: Reinstated Lexapro 2 mg (mild improvement, but crying spells still present)

1/2016-5/2017: Lexapro 5 mg ( helped a lot, but poor stress tolerance & depressive episodes)

5/20/2017 - Raised dose to Lexapro 10 mg due to lingering depression(Total of 2 failed tapers & severe PAWS)

9/11/2018 - Present: Still on 10 mg Lexapro and mostly recovered.(Anxiety still triggers Myoclonus.)

10/7/2022 - 20 mg Lexapro (brand only) Plus occasional Klonopin for anxiety and Ambien for insomnia.

 

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I think this is posted elsewhere on this site nevertheless it was good to read it again.

 

Maybe a mod can enlarge the font size as reading it wasnt easy.

 

'Patients who are having toxic withdrawal related symptoms almost always want to know how long it will last.  There is no good answer for this question, but the time frame is going to be in the realm of months and years and not days or weeks.  This is an important issue for the person who is highly debilitated by symptoms.  If a person is disabled and unable to function at work or to socialize, then it is probably not a great idea to wait indefinitely for it to go away.  Reinstatement of the drug, or use of a benzodiazepine – while not ideal, may be worth the risks.'

 

I dont like the idea of adding a benzo but that is just me.

 

'In the meantime, I want to emphasize that rehabilitative related treatment is useful in improving symptoms.  Recently I saw a person who had to drop out of college for the semester because they could not concentrate enough to do the computer programming needed for classes.  As a rehabilitation strategy, the person was encouraged to do some similar type of programming every day.  It was a slow start, but it looks like this person will resume school next month.  Staying in bed and resting in hope that the problem will go away may not be as good as forcing oneself to engage in exercise, socialization, proper diet, meditation, spiritual activities and work like activities.'

 

Easier said than done sometimes staying in bed and resting was all i could do.

Thought for the day: Lets stand up, and let’s speak out , together. G Olsen

We have until the 14th. Feb 2018. 

URGENT REQUEST Please consider submitting  for the petition on Prescribed Drug Dependence and Withdrawal currently awaiting its third consideration at the Scottish Parliament. You don't even have to be from Scotland. By clicking on the link below you can read some of the previous submissions but be warned many of them are quite harrowing.

http://www.parliament.scot/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01651   

Please tell them about your problems taking and withdrawing from antidepressants and/or benzos.

Send by email to petitions@parliament.scot and quote PE01651 in the subject heading. Keep to a maximum of 3 sides of A4 and you can't name for legal reasons any doctor you have consulted. Tell them if you wish to remain anonymous. We need the numbers to help convince the committee members we are not isolated cases. You have until mid February. Thank you

Recovering paxil addict

None of the published articles shed light on what ssri's ... actually do or what their hazards might be. Healy 2013. 

This is so true, with anything you get on these drugs, dependance, tapering, withdrawal symptoms, side effects, just silent. And if there is something mentioned then their is a serious disconnect between what is said and reality! 

  "Every time I read of a multi-person shooting, I always presume that person had just started a SSRI or had just stopped."  Dr Mosher. Me too! 

Over two decades later, the number of antidepressant prescriptions a year is slightly more than the number of people in the Western world. Most (nine out of 10) prescriptions are for patients who faced difficulties on stopping, equating to about a tenth of the population. These patients are often advised to continue treatment because their difficulties indicate they need ongoing treatment, just as a person with diabetes needs insulin. Healy 2015

I believe the ssri era will soon stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine. Healy 2015

Let people help people ... in a natural, kind, non-addictive (and non-big pharma) way. J Broadley 2017

 

 

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You can always click on the link and read on the original site. I copy and pasted the article but the formatting didn't keep.

2005-2008: Effexor; 1/2008 Tapered 3 months, then quit. 7/2008-2009 Reinstated Effexor (crying spells at start of new job.)
2009-3/2013: Switched to Pristiq 50 mg then 100 mg
3/2013: Switched to Lexapro 10mg. Cut down to 5 mg. CT for 2 weeks then reinstated for 6 weeks
8/2013-8/2014: Tapering Lexapro (Lots of withdrawal symptoms)
11/2014 -8/2015: Developed severe insomnia and uncontrollable daily crying spells
12/2014-6/2015: Tried Ambien, Klonopin, Ativan, Lunesta, Sonata, Trazadone, Seroquel, Rameron, Gabapentin - Developed Anxiety disorder, PTSD, and Psychogenic Myoclonus
7/2015-1/2016: Reinstated Lexapro 2 mg (mild improvement, but crying spells still present)

1/2016-5/2017: Lexapro 5 mg ( helped a lot, but poor stress tolerance & depressive episodes)

5/20/2017 - Raised dose to Lexapro 10 mg due to lingering depression(Total of 2 failed tapers & severe PAWS)

9/11/2018 - Present: Still on 10 mg Lexapro and mostly recovered.(Anxiety still triggers Myoclonus.)

10/7/2022 - 20 mg Lexapro (brand only) Plus occasional Klonopin for anxiety and Ambien for insomnia.

 

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  • 10 months later...

Does Dr. Shipko currently understand AD destabilization and the time limititations on reinstatement?

 

Does Dr. Shipko currently understand AD destabilization and the time limititations (if any) on updosing?

 

Is there a consensus on these two topics per others who are knowledgeable on these issues (eg Dr. Healy) or others who are knowledgeable ?

 

 

 

 

If on a Benzo for a relatively short period of time, such as less than 6-12 months, one may want to consider tapering off their Benzo first (please see Will Hall's book on Harm Reduction)

 

Prior to commencing with an AD taper please consider what problems the AD is causing, as tapering is an extremely serious endeavor.   

If one has been on an AD for more than 10 yrs. please consider the potential long term negative consequences of AD withdrawal prior to tapering. (please see Drs. Healy, Glenmullen and Shipko) 

Prior to re-starting an AD taper, please do not resume tapering until all w/d sx's from any prior taper, especially CT, have resolved. 

 

2004 - Dec. 2015,  Cymbalta 20mg/d  for neck pain - Never had problems with Cymbalta.   Dec 2015, CT 20mg/d Cymbalta.  5 weeks later reinstated 20mg/d Cymbalta - without increase in CT sx's.   

Feb 2016 STARTED VALIUM 25mg/d for CT Cymbalta wd sxs.    Jan-April 2016 Held Cymbalta 20mg/d - doing pretty well (AM 3/10 anxiety and 3/10 tinnitus)

April 2016, CT Cymbalta sx's had not yet resolved and I prematurely tapered 10% q 4 wks x 3 mos.  After 3rd cut developed 10/10 wd sx's of Anxiety, Anhedonia, Anorexia, Panic attacks, dark, incresaed Valium to 28mg/d. 

November 2016, after 3 cuts, UP-DOSED all (41 beads) back up to 20mg (193 beads total) Cymbalta - from , dark to light.

VALIUM TAPER: Jan 2017 28mg to March 2019 Zero   Cymbalta has partially stabilized and helped with the Valium taper.  The only sx I have now is 3/10 Tinnitus, which I only notice when it is quiet.

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/11900-woof-cymbalta-re-stabilization-after-cold-turkey-withdrawal/  Benzo Posts http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/11951-woof-valium-scheduling-and-dosage-with-cymbalta-wd-symptoms/

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  • 2 months later...
  • Moderator Emeritus

This is Shipko's latest installment, which came out today on MiA:

 

How to Avoid Severe SSRI Withdrawal Symptoms?

 

And once again, he is advocating the use of benzos for people to use to come off SSRIs.


 

Quote

 

Benzodiazepines almost always provide symptomatic relief. Sometimes high doses for long periods of time are needed. More often they can be used at intervals of no more than twice a week long term without becoming dependent. The only medications that reliably seem to make withdrawal symptoms tolerable so that the person no longer need consider suicide are the benzodiazepines.

 

 

 

 

But he's getting more brazen about it and asking the folks from the benzo withdrawal community to support him in this.

 

Quote

Treatment of SSRI withdrawal toxicity is difficult. I also want to shout out to the online benzodiazepine support groups, and make a request. Medicine is filled with difficult choices, and I ask that the benzo community consider withdrawal akathisia as a possible valid indication for the drugs. For severe akathisia with suicidal ideation, benzodiazepines can be lifesaving. Other medications are generally far less effective for these severe problems and run the risk of causing further damage.

 

This did not go over well to the benzo community who responded in the comments area.  

 

All you have to do is look at the benzo forum here on SA and over on the protracted section of Benzo Buddies to realize how dangerous this advice is. While I do agree that a using a rescue dose from time to time is warranted, especially for someone experiencing severe suicidal ideation, however, Shipko is advocating using them long term, as I just highlighted in red above. This is very dangerous advice and people should be warned that benzos also can cause akathisia and suicidal thoughts upon withdrawal. 

Edited by Shep
fixed typo

 

 

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Thanks for posting Shep. 

 

I have a lot of admiration and respect for Dr Shipko.

I was offered a benzo in the early stages of withdrawal but I refused it and am so glad I did.

I know of others who used a benzo and years later they are still on it and unable to get off.

imo I don't think this is the answer. 

 

"There are people who are able to stop these drugs (even after long-term use) with minimal tapering and yet will have no discernible problems. Many people are going to have transient, mild to moderate difficulty and some are going to end up falling down the akathisia rabbit hole. That is a long, difficult drop."

 

Personally I always have tremendous difficulty especially after my own experience and seeing the experience of others from a distance in the local community believing that long term users with minimal tapering can just 'walk away' into the sunset. But that's just me. Are these people followed up one or two years later?

The fact that we are seeing unprecedented levels of prescriptions and rising for these chemicals suggests otherwise at least to me anyway. 

 

"It is bad enough to suffer from withdrawal akathisia, but the problem is compounded by well-meaning family encouraging the patient to seek more drugs and by possibly well-meaning psychiatrists who deny that such withdrawal symptoms exist. The patients often have no support from their family or their psychiatrist and are encouraged to take more drugs which often just make the problem worse."

I agree with this totally. Unless a person has a deep inner conviction of the true reason for their plight they are up against it that's for sure.

"Mostly patients seem unable to really put to words the intense suffering they experience. It is an anguish that seems to be neither anxiety nor depression. The severe and persistent set of symptoms of the SSRI withdrawal syndrome needs to be further defined and needs its own name."

Good point I agree. Any attempt to describe it using words results in the medical profession turning on us and labeling us, oblivious to the obvious -SSRI withdrawal and the horror show that it is.

 

"Reinstatement of the SSRI sometimes works, but it also might not work, or it might make things irreversibly worse"

 

"For patients on SSRIs long term who are having new problems with anxiety or depression and seek a medication treatment, it is probably a better idea to keep the old medication and add on new ones than to try to taper the first medication while adding in the new medication. "

This is an interesting statement. I don't know so much. Its just so tragic that people are in this disgusting position left so debilitated by the whole thing that decisions about this are often left to others. And this is the outcome. This I guess also is why we are seeing people turned into inescapable chemical dumpsites. Medicated train wrecks.

 

"As long as the general trend is improvement, then one can expect that over time there will be complete recovery. If a year has passed with no trend toward recovery, experimentation with other medications becomes a more reasonable strategy — however, the patient runs the risk of further deterioration."

No disrespect to Shipko who is doing his best to help others and acknowledges this harm being done to people but after reading this I still feel that the experts still seem unable to conceive of the timeframes for recovery here. After 1 year I was in a bad way. Two to three years is still early days, imo. 

 

"For people who have been on the drugs for less than five years, my basic starting point is to drop 10% every month or two until halfway, and then 5% the rest of the way. If the first 10% cut results in any meaningful symptoms, then I usually recommend reinstating until stable and then restarting half as fast. Similarly, if 5 % is too fast it is reinstated to the original dose until comfortable, and then we might try 2.5%. If there are significant withdrawal symptoms despite cuts of 2.5% every month or two, especially early on, I advise fairly quickly to reinstate to the original dose rather than to wait very long to try to accommodate."

 

I can only assume here that Shipko is referring to a arithmetic progression not a geometric one.

I wonder what he means by the original dose.

 

How many ticking SSRI time bombs are out there?

Good question ...ive sometimes wondered this myself ....imo the numbers are truly chilling!

 

 

nz11 

 

 

Thought for the day: Lets stand up, and let’s speak out , together. G Olsen

We have until the 14th. Feb 2018. 

URGENT REQUEST Please consider submitting  for the petition on Prescribed Drug Dependence and Withdrawal currently awaiting its third consideration at the Scottish Parliament. You don't even have to be from Scotland. By clicking on the link below you can read some of the previous submissions but be warned many of them are quite harrowing.

http://www.parliament.scot/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01651   

Please tell them about your problems taking and withdrawing from antidepressants and/or benzos.

Send by email to petitions@parliament.scot and quote PE01651 in the subject heading. Keep to a maximum of 3 sides of A4 and you can't name for legal reasons any doctor you have consulted. Tell them if you wish to remain anonymous. We need the numbers to help convince the committee members we are not isolated cases. You have until mid February. Thank you

Recovering paxil addict

None of the published articles shed light on what ssri's ... actually do or what their hazards might be. Healy 2013. 

This is so true, with anything you get on these drugs, dependance, tapering, withdrawal symptoms, side effects, just silent. And if there is something mentioned then their is a serious disconnect between what is said and reality! 

  "Every time I read of a multi-person shooting, I always presume that person had just started a SSRI or had just stopped."  Dr Mosher. Me too! 

Over two decades later, the number of antidepressant prescriptions a year is slightly more than the number of people in the Western world. Most (nine out of 10) prescriptions are for patients who faced difficulties on stopping, equating to about a tenth of the population. These patients are often advised to continue treatment because their difficulties indicate they need ongoing treatment, just as a person with diabetes needs insulin. Healy 2015

I believe the ssri era will soon stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine. Healy 2015

Let people help people ... in a natural, kind, non-addictive (and non-big pharma) way. J Broadley 2017

 

 

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  • 6 months later...

So much of what I have seen from the likes of Shipko and Healy regarding akathisia like symptoms as well as PSSD is absolutely terrifying. The only thing keeping me going right now is hope that one day I will have a window and my symptoms will lessen. I have to keep repeating to myself almost every minute that nothing is permanent, I can't be this way forever. But then I see things that Shipko and Healy have mentioned on RxISK and MIA and it is so despairing that I spiral into a darker place. I am going to try to avoid these sites from now on as they are not bringing me any good news and are not doing me any good.

 

Shouldn't these pages be spreading hope rather than despair regarding PSSD and akathisia and withdrawal? Where does Dr. Healy get his proof that genital numbness can be permanent? How can he make that claim when there really can't be any way to determine permanent damage? And if he is just being realistic, what good does that do to someone in the throes of all of this? 

 

Why haven't those suffering from PSSD/ withdrawal in the states banded together for a march on Washington or something? A hunger strike outside of Pfizer or for UK members GSK HQ? Heck, if people want the research to be done into remedying this problem, wouldn't a drastic move like a massive hunger strike be an impetus for change? If all of the US members well enough to travel picked a week to sit outside of Pfizer HQ in New York, some kind of press would be made into this situation we are all in. Maybe I am just overly optimistic but I believe a massive group of people suffering showing up outside of Pfizer and refusing to eat until they decide to start researching how they can reverse the adverse effects their medications can cause would be a better use of our suffering than just waiting it out until we are whole again. Or at least, getting them to first admit that thier drugs can actually do harm would be a step in the right direction. I would be more than willing to organize such an event.

 

I would like to know others thoughts on all of this.

 

 

 

 

2001-2017-worked my way up from 25mg of zoloft and 2mg of Concerta to 200mg of zoloft and 36mg of Concerta

February 2017-Stopped Concerta cold turkey

September 2017-Added 2mg of Abilify

November 2017-came off Abilify

December 2017-began taper of zoloft 50mg a week while tapering on to Viibryd

January 2018-back on zoloft 200mg

February 2018--tapered off zoloft over a month onto 40mg of prozac

April 2018-CT prozac due to suspected "serotonin syndrome"

 

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I think Dr Healey's view may have changed a bit in the past years or so.  I know if you look at things he wrote years back, he often referred to PSSD as being a seemingly permanent condition.  But in more recent articles etc. he seems to acknowledge that people can and do recover albeit something that takes a long time.  I suspect he probably now knows people that have recovered; I know for sure there have been a couple of people comment on his blog posts that have recovered.  He often compares PSSD to tardive dyskinesia, a condition which is quite often referred to as being permenent; however a academic study from a year or so ago which followed about 5 or 6 people with the condition long-term, showed that they all recovered eventually.  I think what Dr. Healey is doing - standing up against the medical establishment etc. - is fantastic and I really admire him for it.  But I do feel the Rxisk site is of a very negative nature; not in terms of what they are trying to achieve, but in terms of the perceived message from past articles on the site and the continuing cycle of comments from readers that reinforces negativity, to the extent that when people who have recovered write a comment about their recovery, it seems they are almost either ignored or disbelieved.  

 

I think there is a very good chance within the next few years or so, that something like you describe will happen i.e. people coming together and taking action.  There are simply too many people out there suffering and with the powers of the internet/social media etc. I think it is only time before something big happens.   

Escitalopram for anxiety (dates below are approximate).

 

Oct 09 - Apr 10, 20mg (tapered off over about 6 weeks). 

Jun 10 - Feb 11, 20mg (tapered off over about 6 weeks). 

Jun 11 - Aug 12, 20mg (started to taper off but failed). 

Oct 12 - Dec 13, 20mg.  Dec 13 - Apr 14, 10mg.  Apr 14 - Nov 14, 5mg. 

Nov 14 - Jan 16, 20mg.  Jan 16 - Aug 16, 10mg.  Aug 16 - Dec 16, 10mg every other day.  Dec 16 - Jan 17 5mg every third day.  Jan 17 - took last tablet.

 

 

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None of this is permanent.  The reason the symptoms seem to be permanent is that doctors keep trying to treat them with substances that the person's nervous system cannot tolerate.  Instead of reinstating the drug the body needs at a very, very low dose, the doctors switch the drug, prescribe drugs in amounts that a normal nervous system can handle (usually handle that's is) and discontinue the drugs the person's brain has become dependent upon to function.  The destabilization or dysautonomia is exacerbated by these attempts to "treat" the illness.  

 

No research or thought is put into how to treat these symptoms.  The doctors are using differential diagnosis - try this, try that, until something works.  Differential diagnosis essentially the absolute worst way to treat dysautonomia.  It adds fuel to the fire as it is further damaging the sensitive nervous system of the person who suffers from dysautonomia.  Differential diagnosis is basically witchcraft except that at some point witchcraft was better than differential diagnosis.  "Do no harm" is ignored for most patients in today's world.  There is almost no consideration given to that concept when it comes to psychiatric care, and that has been true for essentially the entire history of psychiatric care since the 60s.

 

I can see from your signature @Noloft that you have been put on and taken off of drug after drug after drug.  The last time you had to quit a drug was in April of 18.   It is far too early to think about permanent PSSD.  I'm sure it's very upsetting to be dealing with that.  If you can travel and organize a protest you are doing better than I am.  Because of that I think you will be fine, and all of this will be bad memory someday.  After quitting a very high dose of Zoloft it is going to take some time to get back to normal, but it's very encouraging that you are able to travel and plan so soon.  Amazing.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/16629-rosetta-ct-may-2011-too-fast-taper-feb-2017/?page=25

2001-2011 Celexa 10 mg raised to 40 mg then 60 mg over this time period

May 2011 OB Doctor's Cold switch Celexa 60 mg to 10 mg Zoloft sertraline (baby born)

2012-2016 - Doctors raised dose of Zoloft up to 150 mg

2016 - Xanax prescribed - as needed - 0.5 mg about every 3 days (bad reaction)

2016 - Stopped Xanax

Late 2016- Began (too fast) taper of Zoloft

Early 2017 - Trazodone prescribed for bedtime (doseage unknown)

Feb 2017 - Completed taper/stopped Trazodone

Drug free since Feb 2017

2017 - Unisom otc very rarely for sleep

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15 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

None of this is permanent.  The reason the symptoms seem to be permanent is that doctors keep trying to treat them with substances that the person's nervous system cannot tolerate.

 

Very good point, Rosetta.

 

Clinicians are not used to following patients for many years, when they see something lasting more than a year, to them, it's "permanent." We take a much longer view here.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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6 hours ago, 1Day said:

I think Dr Healey's view may have changed a bit in the past years or so.  I know if you look at things he wrote years back, he often referred to PSSD as being a seemingly permanent condition.  But in more recent articles etc. he seems to acknowledge that people can and do recover albeit something that takes a long time.  I suspect he probably now knows people that have recovered; I know for sure there have been a couple of people comment on his blog posts that have recovered.  He often compares PSSD to tardive dyskinesia, a condition which is quite often referred to as being permenent; however a academic study from a year or so ago which followed about 5 or 6 people with the condition long-term, showed that they all recovered eventually.  I think what Dr. Healey is doing - standing up against the medical establishment etc. - is fantastic and I really admire him for it.  But I do feel the Rxisk site is of a very negative nature; not in terms of what they are trying to achieve, but in terms of the perceived message from past articles on the site and the continuing cycle of comments from readers that reinforces negativity, to the extent that when people who have recovered write a comment about their recovery, it seems they are almost either ignored or disbelieved.  

 

I think there is a very good chance within the next few years or so, that something like you describe will happen i.e. people coming together and taking action.  There are simply too many people out there suffering and with the powers of the internet/social media etc. I think it is only time before something big happens.   

 

1day,

 

why do  you think it will take a few years? I feel the resources are available and the people are willing, why do you think no one has tried to do something right now? 

2001-2017-worked my way up from 25mg of zoloft and 2mg of Concerta to 200mg of zoloft and 36mg of Concerta

February 2017-Stopped Concerta cold turkey

September 2017-Added 2mg of Abilify

November 2017-came off Abilify

December 2017-began taper of zoloft 50mg a week while tapering on to Viibryd

January 2018-back on zoloft 200mg

February 2018--tapered off zoloft over a month onto 40mg of prozac

April 2018-CT prozac due to suspected "serotonin syndrome"

 

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4 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

Very good point, Rosetta.

 

Clinicians are not used to following patients for many years, when they see something lasting more than a year, to them, it's "permanent." We take a much longer view here.

 

Alto,

 Would this account for why Dr. Healy has claimed permanent dysfunction? He just has not followed enough patients for a long enough time to see any results to the contrary? 

2001-2017-worked my way up from 25mg of zoloft and 2mg of Concerta to 200mg of zoloft and 36mg of Concerta

February 2017-Stopped Concerta cold turkey

September 2017-Added 2mg of Abilify

November 2017-came off Abilify

December 2017-began taper of zoloft 50mg a week while tapering on to Viibryd

January 2018-back on zoloft 200mg

February 2018--tapered off zoloft over a month onto 40mg of prozac

April 2018-CT prozac due to suspected "serotonin syndrome"

 

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Could be. Also, he may see cases where PSSD has lasted much longer.

 

These things tend to resemble a normal curve, where there may be a tail of extreme cases way out on the right side that represent a tiny minority of cases. Like human height -- there are people who are over 8 feet tall, but there are very few of them. Most people are in the middle.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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1 hour ago, Noloft said:

 

1day,

 

why do  you think it will take a few years? I feel the resources are available and the people are willing, why do you think no one has tried to do something right now? 

Because I think these things are not easy for people to openly admit to in society.  If you took a pill for headaches or an upset stomach and it made your right foot feel numb, you would happily go into work and tell your colleagues 'oh you won't believe what those headache pills have done to me'.  But people who take an anti-depressant and then suffer PSSD are not going to go into work and say 'hey, I have been taking anti-depressants and now they have caused me sexual dysfunction'.  People still don't like talking openly about mental health, and sexual dysfunction is certainly not something people openly talk about. 

 

So I still think we are a little bit of time away before people feel that there is enough support around them to be able to really stand up to the people responsible for all of this.  It is hard for people when most doctors and other medical people don't believe any of this is true, or at least not prepared to admit it.  If people arranged some major protest like you suggest, who would the powers that be believe: the people protesting or the medical establishment?  I would guess the medical establishment.  So that is what I mean by more support: more evidence and people getting on bored with the likes of this website, Dr. Healey, and what he is trying to do, media exposure etc.  I think that with a bit more time, there will be enough of a 'buzz' and enough real evidence provided by multiple sources and enough people working together, for something to really be done.  

 

Escitalopram for anxiety (dates below are approximate).

 

Oct 09 - Apr 10, 20mg (tapered off over about 6 weeks). 

Jun 10 - Feb 11, 20mg (tapered off over about 6 weeks). 

Jun 11 - Aug 12, 20mg (started to taper off but failed). 

Oct 12 - Dec 13, 20mg.  Dec 13 - Apr 14, 10mg.  Apr 14 - Nov 14, 5mg. 

Nov 14 - Jan 16, 20mg.  Jan 16 - Aug 16, 10mg.  Aug 16 - Dec 16, 10mg every other day.  Dec 16 - Jan 17 5mg every third day.  Jan 17 - took last tablet.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

Could be. Also, he may see cases where PSSD has lasted much longer.

 

These things tend to resemble a normal curve, where there may be a tail of extreme cases way out on the right side that represent a tiny minority of cases. Like human height -- there are people who are over 8 feet tall, but there are very few of them. Most people are in the middle.

I know of a case where the person recovered after 11-12 years.  That shows the scale of recovery time.  And of course, it is very easy for somebody to believe after 5 years that it is permanent (and many seem convinced after 1 or 2 years).  But many of the recovery stories you read about are in the 2-6 year range.   

Escitalopram for anxiety (dates below are approximate).

 

Oct 09 - Apr 10, 20mg (tapered off over about 6 weeks). 

Jun 10 - Feb 11, 20mg (tapered off over about 6 weeks). 

Jun 11 - Aug 12, 20mg (started to taper off but failed). 

Oct 12 - Dec 13, 20mg.  Dec 13 - Apr 14, 10mg.  Apr 14 - Nov 14, 5mg. 

Nov 14 - Jan 16, 20mg.  Jan 16 - Aug 16, 10mg.  Aug 16 - Dec 16, 10mg every other day.  Dec 16 - Jan 17 5mg every third day.  Jan 17 - took last tablet.

 

 

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That's exactly right, 1Day. But we don't have real statistics, so all we can say is "be patient."

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Understood.

 

Have you seen cases of recovery on this site from people who were placed on the medicine during puberty, basically growing up with it in their system?i was placed on Zoloft at the age of 11. Minor sexual problems on, though I didn’t know it because I never had a measuring stick for normalcy. Severe problems after rapid taper. 

2001-2017-worked my way up from 25mg of zoloft and 2mg of Concerta to 200mg of zoloft and 36mg of Concerta

February 2017-Stopped Concerta cold turkey

September 2017-Added 2mg of Abilify

November 2017-came off Abilify

December 2017-began taper of zoloft 50mg a week while tapering on to Viibryd

January 2018-back on zoloft 200mg

February 2018--tapered off zoloft over a month onto 40mg of prozac

April 2018-CT prozac due to suspected "serotonin syndrome"

 

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1day,

 

i am  very very open about this. With doctors, family, friends, everyone. I do not care what people think anymore maybe I am too dissociated from myself to feel shameful of the fact that I have sexual dysfunction. But I am open about it and nothing will change if we aren’t  open about it. 

2001-2017-worked my way up from 25mg of zoloft and 2mg of Concerta to 200mg of zoloft and 36mg of Concerta

February 2017-Stopped Concerta cold turkey

September 2017-Added 2mg of Abilify

November 2017-came off Abilify

December 2017-began taper of zoloft 50mg a week while tapering on to Viibryd

January 2018-back on zoloft 200mg

February 2018--tapered off zoloft over a month onto 40mg of prozac

April 2018-CT prozac due to suspected "serotonin syndrome"

 

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Hi @Noloft I'm definitely agreeing with you that we should find a way to bring this conversation into the open. I try to be as open about my struggles as I can, and perhaps it helps that I was put on my AD for something other than depression. But there's still the stigma when it comes to taking an AD in general.  Since my horrific withdrawal episode, I've spoken with as many friends and family members as I feel comfortable with, telling them to stay away from any medication that crosses the blood-brain-barrier. I've also tried to educate a few doctors that I've seen, but the scale by which doctors prescribe ADs and have little to know understanding of withdrawal is absolutely mind-boggling.

 

I believe that the least that the drug companies can do would be to manufacture small doses like 5 mg and 1 mg tablets to make it easier (and more obvious) that people need to taper these things slowly.

 

The sad truth of it is that, at least in the US, so many things are driven by corporate greed and powerful lobbies, that it's truly an enormous task to get anything done on a policy level. Still, there are grassroots things we can each do. These are things like:

  • writing letters to the editor or opinion pieces in major newspapers
  • educating receptive family and friends
  • sharing our withdrawal experience with the FDAs and filing complaints
  • heck, there's plenty of advocacy we can do just via the Internet alone: these days I go through the Reddit forum on antidepressants and leave comments for people who are suffering side effects or going through withdrawal, pointing them to this site and other resources. You can also leave comments on YouTube videos on the topic.

Apr 2018: Began 10 mg Amitriptyline (for headaches & insomnia from concussion).

Jul - Aug 2018: Fast taper to 5 mg and then 2.5 mg (too fast, hellish withdrawal at 2.5 mg). Sept 2018: Reinstated 10 mg (many symptoms improved). Oct 2018 - Apr 2019: Updosed & stabilized on 11 mg (2 waves at 3 and 5 months post-withdrawal). Apr 2019 - Apr 2020: Tapered 0.5-0.25 mg per month using compounded pills: 11 mg —> 6 mg. (2 waves at 12 and 16 months post-withdrawal.) Apr 2020 - present: Switched to a liquid taper at rate of 0.1 mg per month. Currently: 1.1 mg. No more waves. 

 

Supplements: Omega-3 fish oil, Vit B12, coenzyme Q10, Hawthorn extract (for tachycardia) Tools for insomnia/waves (as needed): Epsom salt foot soaks, 0.5 mg Melatonin, quality time, waves WILL PASS. Lifestyle: Eat real foods, mostly plants; sunlight, walking, yoga; symptom tracking on adapted Glenmullen chart.

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