Twelve-Step Recovery & Surviving Antidepressants

[FarmGirlWorks]

5 hours ago, Hibari said:

He even talked about his addiction to being a celebrity.

@Hibari: That would be a hard one, right? That makes me want to read it even more.

 

I'm glad you have program friends to reach out to. I had someone reach out to me last night and realized how important it is... I am such a self-isolater!

[Hibari]

F

18 hours ago, FarmGirlWorks said:

@Hibari: That would be a hard one, right? That makes me want to read it even more.

 

I'm glad you have program friends to reach out to. I had someone reach out to me last night and realized how important it is... I am such a self-isolater!

I understand.  It's taken me awhile to have the courage to reach out.  I have a feeling there is more growth to go.

 

 I think from my chronic tendency to

caretake, which is one of the reasons I'm in Alanon, I have hesitated to reach out.  I feared I would get stuck again in a role, (one that I chose), of listening to other people.  I also feared i would not be able to have my emotional needs met. 

 

But what I have slowly discovered is that when I make a program call, the people who respond know I need support and if they pick up the phone they are signaling they can be there for me.  That's a relief.  The same goes for me. I have the right to not respond if it's not a good time.  

 

I feel I have my recovery track and my wd track. Sometimes they can cross over and sometimes its two completely separate journeys.  It took me some time to figure that out.  

[manymoretodays]

Hi guys!  Yah, I am going to try alanon one of these weeks.  I've been getting back to my new/revised AA program and it's going really well.  I love my AA fellowship, often where ever I go.

 

My sponsor is back too......she'd been traveling, and checked on me post dental procedure.  She's a keeper for sure.

 

Also, I had meant to mention awhile back that is was LSD that Bill W. did, not mushrooms..........according to the official literature.  Lois even joined him in this endeavor and he turned down an offer from Timothy Leary to do LSD with him...........or so the legend goes........ 

 

I'm getting a lot out of meetings lately, and getting more disciplined in my daily use of the tools inherent........once again.  Progress, not perfection we often say.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

[Hibari]

MMT

 

So great that program is feeling good to you. 

 

Great to be reminded about Progress not perfection.  It's something I need to remember during this time.

 

I actually want to try an open AA at some point.  

 

Good to hear your update.

 

Hibari. 

[Steve61]

I’ve been involved with AA for half my life. I love AA. AA saved my life. I was 30 when I first went to an AA meeting, spent the next 13 years sober and then drank again for 6 months and am now sober for another 18 years.  I cannot understand why anyone would take the time to criticise a fellowship that has worked for millions of people. Many of them (like me) hopeless drunks. AA has no opinion on outside issues, it’s just about not taking that first drink, one day at a time. It’s not about antidepressants it’s about Alcohol. That is why AA has been so successful, it’s primary purpose., to stay sober and to help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. People get sober in AA , then they can use their sobriety in any way they choose. There are no rules, just guidelines. I can go to 10 meetings a week or never go again. If someone doesn’t like AA , don’t go !! Simple!

 

Im sorry, if I am a bit defensive about AA but I honestly cannot compare my alcoholism to my antidepressant withdrawal. This is horrible but it hasn’t made me homeless, broke up relationships,lost me jobs, got me locked up by the police countless times, etc, etc.  Alcoholism ruined me, made me sub-human,nearly killed me. Fighting, shoplifting,begging were all part of my daily life and I come from a stable loving home. Salvation Army hostels were my home in the end ,if I was lucky. 

 

I had no choices, no options when I drank. I had to drink. Being sober gave me lots and lots of options. I’m not into ‘blaming’. I got sober, then I made a choice to go onto antidepressants, now I’m making a choice to stop taking antidepressants. It’s proving much harder than I expected but I am using the 12 steps to help me with the withdrawals. The experience of people on here is invaluable and I am very grateful to them. AA, NA, Surviving Antidepressants etc,etc,etc can all co-exist peacefully, I would have thought. There is enough room for all of them.

 

Steve

[powerback]

2 hours ago, Steve61 said:

I’ve been involved with AA for half my life. I love AA. AA saved my life. I was 30 when I first went to an AA meeting, spent the next 13 years sober and then drank again for 6 months and am now sober for another 18 years.  I cannot understand why anyone would take the time to criticise a fellowship that has worked for millions of people. Many of them (like me) hopeless drunks. AA has no opinion on outside issues, it’s just about not taking that first drink, one day at a time. It’s not about antidepressants it’s about Alcohol. That is why AA has been so successful, it’s primary purpose., to stay sober and to help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. People get sober in AA , then they can use their sobriety in any way they choose. There are no rules, just guidelines. I can go to 10 meetings a week or never go again. If someone doesn’t like AA , don’t go !! Simple!

 

Im sorry, if I am a bit defensive about AA but I honestly cannot compare my alcoholism to my antidepressant withdrawal. This is horrible but it hasn’t made me homeless, broke up relationships,lost me jobs, got me locked up by the police countless times, etc, etc.  Alcoholism ruined me, made me sub-human,nearly killed me. Fighting, shoplifting,begging were all part of my daily life and I come from a stable loving home. Salvation Army hostels were my home in the end ,if I was lucky. 

 

I had no choices, no options when I drank. I had to drink. Being sober gave me lots and lots of options. I’m not into ‘blaming’. I got sober, then I made a choice to go onto antidepressants, now I’m making a choice to stop taking antidepressants. It’s proving much harder than I expected but I am using the 12 steps to help me with the withdrawals. The experience of people on here is invaluable and I am very grateful to them. AA, NA, Surviving Antidepressants etc,etc,etc can all co-exist peacefully, I would have thought. There is enough room for all of them.

 

Steve

I agree steve ,I do have my opinions on AA but thats not about the people in it ,not for one second..im the opossite to yourrself , withdrawal has made me a horrible person ,im more likely to get in trouble loose jobs and homeless  because of this proccess  what ever its done to my psychy .its living hell nearly every second lately .

I didnt get in much trouble because of alcohol in the legal sense but its left its mark and im paying for it dearly  ive nothing because of it and its hard to not turn on myself after I realised why I loved alcohol

.I hope some day I can channel my huge energy I have for resentment and regret into my future self and be more productive .

Ide expect to be one hell of a strong person if this withdrawal demon ever lifts.

Take care and continued sobriety to you .

 

[Steve61]

4 minutes ago, powerback said:

I agree steve ,I do have my opinions on AA but thats not about the people in it ,not for one second..im the opossite to yourrself , withdrawal has made me a horrible person ,im more likely to get in trouble loose jobs and homeless  because of this proccess  what ever its done to my psychy .its living hell nearly every second lately .

I didnt get in much trouble because of alcohol in the legal sense but its left its mark and im paying for it dearly  ive nothing because of it and its hard to not turn on myself after I realised why I loved alcohol

.I hope some day I can channel my huge energy I have for resentment and regret into my future self and be more productive .

Ide expect to be one hell of a strong person if this withdrawal demon ever lifts.

Take care and continued sobriety to you .

 

Don’t get me wrong,PB. I’m not very nice to be around at times because of this WD but Im not going to go out shoplifting or hit someone or get get hit by someone because I have no control at all over what I am doing. I’m not trivialising ad withdrawal at all ! I know how hard it is ,but for me , I was completely out of control when drinking. 

 

I honestly don’t think that I had given my nervous system time to adjust when I went onto the ad’s. The battering my brain and body had taken off the alcohol must have been huge and I think,now, that it would have taken many years to repair. I was impatient and looked for a quick fix. People in AA kept saying that it will get better but I thought that I knew best !! 

 

This brings to to the current day and now I am finally ready to be patient and get drug free and hopefully let my mind and body repair. A lot of this is about acceptance for me. I’m going to have to go through some rough times. If I accept that and not fight it , it’s that little bit easier. 

 

I hope you find find some peace in all of this PB. Hang in there. 

 

Steve

[powerback]

1 hour ago, Steve61 said:

Don’t get me wrong,PB. I’m not very nice to be around at times because of this WD but Im not going to go out shoplifting or hit someone or get get hit by someone because I have no control at all over what I am doing. I’m not trivialising ad withdrawal at all ! I know how hard it is ,but for me , I was completely out of control when drinking. 

 

I honestly don’t think that I had given my nervous system time to adjust when I went onto the ad’s. The battering my brain and body had taken off the alcohol must have been huge and I think,now, that it would have taken many years to repair. I was impatient and looked for a quick fix. People in AA kept saying that it will get better but I thought that I knew best !! 

 

This brings to to the current day and now I am finally ready to be patient and get drug free and hopefully let my mind and body repair. A lot of this is about acceptance for me. I’m going to have to go through some rough times. If I accept that and not fight it , it’s that little bit easier. 

 

I hope you find find some peace in all of this PB. Hang in there. 

 

Steve

I didnt think you were trivializing withdrawal steve ,I can see your a happy man away from Alcohol  ,im happy myself ,I despise it .I just cant believe 2 years out im only getting much worse .im sure its to do with a lot atacking my system the last few months .

Take care .

 

[Steve61]

I honestly think it’s a combination of things. Withdrawal of ad’s ,obviously,but don’t underestimate the damage that alcohol has probably done as well.  As I say, I think looking back , when I went onto ad’s, I hadn’t given myself enough time to repair and recover from the alcohol.Then there is the adjustment to life without the crutch of alcohol. 

 

I’ve  got to go through similar things now. Withdrawal off my ad and adjustment to life without it. The 12 steps help enormously. Acceptance of the withdrawals helps. I can’t fight them. They are going to happen. Step 11, meditation. I really think that is going to be the thing that helps me the most. I started a new meditation course this week. I believe it’s a reconditioning or rewiring of my brain.  Step 10, constant vigilance of my actions and apologising immediately when I act unreasonably. Step 12 trying to help others as they help me.

 

The theory is easy, the practice of them difficult. But we help each other PB. That’s how we get to the other side. Your peace, when it arrives, will be all the sweeter for all this suffering that you are going through.  We can do this !!

 

Good luck

Steve

[FarmGirlWorks]

On 9/7/2018 at 5:18 PM, manymoretodays said:

 

I'm getting a lot out of meetings lately, and getting more disciplined in my daily use of the tools inherent........once again.  Progress, not perfection we often say.

Ha! I just found out what happens on SA if you go back a page to quote a selection... all my thoughtful prose to @Hibari @Rabe@powerback@Steve61@manymoretodays @JanCarol is all gone. Oh well. God must have been telling me to edit. In a nutshell:

 

-Glad you're getting to meetings, MMT.

- Hibari said something awesome about the recovery paths of AA and WD as being separate but sometimes crossing over. I provided examples and agree. Thank you.

- Steve and PB had a discussion about how the substance of alcohol and ADs compare. Both are ways to numb out. Steve had a lot of intense problems with alcohol. PB and I have had more problems with WD causing us to fear homelessness, lack of work, social isolation. I went through a Yelling At Strangers Phase in WD that thankfully has not reappeared.

- I forget what else I wrote but am so thankful to be able to share it on SA and for all of you.

[powerback]

7 hours ago, FarmGirlWorks said:

Ha! I just found out what happens on SA if you go back a page to quote a selection... all my thoughtful prose to @Hibari @Rabe@powerback@Steve61@manymoretodays @JanCarol is all gone. Oh well. God must have been telling me to edit. In a nutshell:

 

-Glad you're getting to meetings, MMT.

- Hibari said something awesome about the recovery paths of AA and WD as being separate but sometimes crossing over. I provided examples and agree. Thank you.

- Steve and PB had a discussion about how the substance of alcohol and ADs compare. Both are ways to numb out. Steve had a lot of intense problems with alcohol. PB and I have had more problems with WD causing us to fear homelessness, lack of work, social isolation. I went through a Yelling At Strangers Phase in WD that thankfully has not reappeared.

- I forget what else I wrote but am so thankful to be able to share it on SA and for all of you.

HI FGW a few years ago before my" proper" withdrawal kicked in there was a lady in my town  that would scream at people and one day did at me ,it really unerved me ,I eventually understud why later on .I really felt for her and dont see her around anymore .im convinced it was to do with meds .

I never screamed directly at people but it has made me shout out at cars and being impatient.I shouted out one morning and turned around to see a man behind me ,oh the embarrassment .

I glad that phase is over for you .

 

[manymoretodays]

FGW,

Hey, sometimes if I lose a response.......I just go to another post or even sometimes sign out.  Then when I come back and hit reply(in the string I was commenting on).......Voila',  there's my post again.

 

Not the best method........doing a Select then Control C(copy) might be wisest.......

I would have enjoyed reading the longer response I'm sure.  😞

Oh and also,  I think Bill W's exploration with drugs came after pioneering AA.

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by manymoretodays
more

[Steve61]

Hi MMT. I’m pretty sure BillW’s experiences with LSD were years after he got sober and years after the 12 steps were written. It was to try and relieve his long standing depression and I believe that it was under the supervision of a psychiatrist. 

 

Keep it in the day

Steve

 

[manymoretodays]

Yes, I think you are right about that ^ Steve61.  Bill W. and his depressive tendencies. 

I love the history in AA.......dating back to the 1930's.

On 9/8/2018 at 7:34 AM, powerback said:

I honestly don’t think that I had given my nervous system time to adjust when I went onto the ad’s. The battering my brain and body had taken off the alcohol must have been huge and I think,now, that it would have taken many years to repair. I was impatient and looked for a quick fix. People in AA kept saying that it will get better but I thought that I knew best !! 

I know......it's concerning to me now how often those in the program, and other programs......... get put on drugs so early in their recovery from alcohol and/or street drugs.  It's not just you.......it's the way the programs are run now.  On the one hand it's good there is more funding for substance use and/or abuse........on the other hand they are using more and more of "medically assisted treatment" models.......and I don't know how that will play out in the long term.  Oh, it does help many in the short term......no doubt........yet, once again as the drugs are prescribed I'm not sure full disclosure is being done, or monitoring for adverse effects,  or that any other options are being presented.

We have another thread on that too:  Medication in recovery from substance abuse

If you are interested......

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

Keep it simple, Easy does it,

mmt

Edited September 11, 2018 by manymoretodays

[FarmGirlWorks]

9 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

on the other hand they are using more and more of "medically assisted treatment" models.......and I don't know how that will play out in the long term.  Oh, it does help many in the short term......no doubt........yet, once again as the drugs are prescribed I'm not sure full disclosure is being done, or monitoring for adverse effects,  or that any other options are being presented.

We have another thread on that too:  Medication in recovery from substance abuse

@manymoretodays thanks for the thread link. Just read it. I do think what you said about AA using the "medical" model and putting people on drugs who are in the group. Went to a meeting that had a therapist speaking and during the shares so many people talked about how things were better now that they knew to be on their meds. I dunno. 

 

Oh and ps: the long post I wrote that I lost the other day popped up again today. Hahaha.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 9:47 AM, Steve61 said:

Hi MMT. I’m pretty sure BillW’s experiences with LSD were years after he got sober and years after the 12 steps were written. It was to try and relieve his long standing depression and I believe that it was under the supervision of a psychiatrist. 

That is true: it was LSD therapy he tried. I was thinking of microdosing with LSD when this dastardly WD is over but at this point that may be years from now. I hope not but I feel so utterly battered and beaten by this that I have metaphorically thrown up my hands in surrender. Plus, not sure how microdosing works with the start of menopause so want to check that out.

[Steve61]

17 hours ago, manymoretodays said:

Yes, I think you are right about that ^ Steve61.  Bill W. and his depressive tendencies. 

I love the history in AA.......dating back to the 1930's.

I know......it's concerning to me now how often those in the program, and other programs......... get put on drugs so early in their recovery from alcohol and/or street drugs.  It's not just you.......it's the way the programs are run now.  On the one hand it's good there is more funding for substance use and/or abuse........on the other hand they are using more and more of "medically assisted treatment" models.......and I don't know how that will play out in the long term.  Oh, it does help many in the short term......no doubt........yet, once again as the drugs are prescribed I'm not sure full disclosure is being done, or monitoring for adverse effects,  or that any other options are being presented.

We have another thread on that too:  Medication in recovery from substance abuse

If you are interested......

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

Keep it simple, Easy does it,

mmt

MMT, I have read the other thread and found it very interesting. It’s a subject that I have thought a lot about over the last 25 years. One point that I need to clarify : It was my own decision to seek out medical treatment when I wasn’t coping with life. Nothing to do with AA or any 12 step program. I did it independently. I thought that after 4 or 5 years sober that I should have been a lot better at coping with life than I was. I suffered terribly with anxiety and had got to the place where I was very, very frightened. This despite trying to work the program and going to lots of meetings.  Now , as I look back ,I do not think that I was patient enough in my recovery. I hadn’t given myself enough time to heal from the tremendous battering alcohol had given me. Plus I had never had a period in my life where I had led a ‘normal life’.  I drank alcoholically from the first drink at 15. I could never hold down a job, a relationship, own my own place etc etc. I went from drinking surgical spirits and living rough to living in the real world and I was rubbish at it. Everything was new to me. All the responsibilities of life were new to me. At 35 years old I felt completely lost. So I eventually looked for help outside the 12 step program. I will leave a post in the other thread after some more thinking about the subject.

 

Steve

 

 

[FarmGirlWorks]

10 hours ago, Steve61 said:

I thought that after 4 or 5 years sober that I should have been a lot better at coping with life than I was. I suffered terribly with anxiety and had got to the place where I was very, very frightened. This despite trying to work the program and going to lots of meetings.  Now , as I look back ,I do not think that I was patient enough in my recovery.

Thanks for sharing this @Steve61. I am beginning to work the steps and go to more meetings in the hopes that I'll be able to cope better when this WD heals. Pre-menopause has thrown a wrench into this plan. When you say that you were not "patient enough in your recovery" what exactly do you mean? That you should have given your AA program more years? God, it all seems so long.

[Steve61]

2 hours ago, FarmGirlWorks said:

Thanks for sharing this @Steve61. I am beginning to work the steps and go to more meetings in the hopes that I'll be able to cope better when this WD heals. Pre-menopause has thrown a wrench into this plan. When you say that you were not "patient enough in your recovery" what exactly do you mean? That you should have given your AA program more years? God, it all seems so long.

Yes, FMG, that’s exactly what I mean. More years. I had spent all my adult life running from reality.  To adjust to all the realities and responsibilities of living life on life’s terms takes a lot of years. ( I believe now ).  In many ways I felt like I lived in a foreign country where I didn’t know the language or the customs etc. I felt like an alien. Everything I did was new to me. Life skills that people learn at 16 , I was trying to learn at 32 and I was full of anxiety. Looking back , I honestly believe that I didn’t give myself enough time to heal, to adjust. 

 

On the the plus side , even on the antidepressants, my life has been immeasurably better without alcohol.With the help of AA and the 12 steps I did find a way to cope and to enjoy life.  I am eternally grateful for that. The antidepressants did help me for a while but I believe that they stopped working positively for me a long while ago and now I am tapering. It’s hard, really hard but I will use what a I have learned in AA to help me and this site is a Godsend. I am really grateful to have found you and the others that help me.

 

One day at a time

Steve

[manymoretodays]

On 9/11/2018 at 7:40 PM, FarmGirlWorks said:

Just read it. I do think what you said about AA using the "medical" model and putting people on drugs who are in the group. Went to a meeting that had a therapist speaking and during the shares so many people talked about how things were better now that they knew to be on their meds. I dunno. 

 

17 hours ago, Steve61 said:

It was my own decision to seek out medical treatment when I wasn’t coping with life. Nothing to do with AA or any 12 step program. I did it independently.

 

Yes, just to clarify.........FGW, I didn't mean to infer that the AA program put people on drugs.  Or was big on the medical model or medically assisted treatment.  I was referring to some of the treatment programs that some of my fellow AAers are in.

 

I love the program.  I've learned to tolerate and respect others, and where they are at.  Even institutions.  Of course, I can't afford the luxury of being all resentful anymore about much of anything.  Why.....that was the very topic today in meeting.  I'm not perfect at it all.......and never will be.  But oh, it's helped me to be a better human in all my interactions.  I mean I'm growing I hope.

 

It's just the way it worked out for me.......I was already coming off psychiatry and the medications, when I landed in AA.  And do fit the profile of an Alcoholic.  Last thing I was pretty darn hooked on was good old weed.

 

Withdrawal IS different......... with some cross over, as someone said above, or I may have somewhere.

 

And yes......I assumed such Steve61.  It's an outside issue.  I've looked at the current pamphlet that they have......entitled A.A. Member- Medications and Other Drugs.

Sometimes in meeting people do share, as part of their own stuff, their beliefs and choices around mental illness and treatment.  And sometimes it differs from mine.   I've gotten used to it.  I can only control my own reactions. 

 

And many are working in "recovery oriented" treatment centers.  I've even considered that for work.  It seems like a natural progression for many of my friends in AA.

 

The best I can do there, in meetings......is keep it to my own stuff.......my shares.  Oh, we have many outside the meeting discussions as well.  I look at those outside the meeting times as when I can educate a little bit.  If asked.   I'm certainly not out to change the whole world. 

 

I hope that is clearer.  I call it the "secret society of AA" to my Sun(son).  He's not totally into it.......yet.  I'm hoping he'll join someday soon.  I landed there when he got a DUI.  He's doing okay now......but absconded from sentencing and parole.  He isn't driving anymore.  It was his first offense and he hasn't had further legal issues.  He's 26 now.  I can't do his life for him.  He came in(to AA) before he moved back to the bigger city and got 30 days, a chip.  So I've done what I can to "carry the message".  It takes a village though, eh?  Sometimes.  I don't know if he is an Alcoholic.  Perhaps.  He's got his book and some names.  He might be going to meetings once in awhile in his area. 

 

I'm his Mom.   Best job I've ever had.   All I can do is be a good example now.

 

And I don't know for sure.......if he is an Alcoholic.  I suspect he is.  I'm his Mom though.  He's got a lot of family support.   I mean if he wants to lawyer up or turn himself in.  We just all want him to pursue more education.......he's brilliant.  Of course!  He's working and living on his own.  I'm pretty proud of him.

 

Solly.....got a bit repetitive there.  Sensitive subject.....me boy.  🖤

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

Oh yes......a day at a time

Edited September 13, 2018 by manymoretodays

[FarmGirlWorks]

1 hour ago, manymoretodays said:

I didn't mean to infer that the AA program put people on drugs.  Or was big on the medical model or medically assisted treatment.  I was referring to some of the treatment programs that some of my fellow AAers are in.

Ah: I misunderstood. It is sad -- though not surprising -- that so many AAers are or were on psychodrugs. Fabulous thing happened tonight, though, when a young woman from my home group texted and invited me to another meeting and asked how I was. I said I was "crazytown" today but it was more likely antidepressant withdrawal than booze; AA is breaking down my propensity to not tell the truth. She then texted back that she went through the horrors of benzo WD for over two years and was totally understanding. Such a nice (and very much needed today) AA double-support.

 

1 hour ago, manymoretodays said:

And do fit the profile of an Alcoholic.  Last thing I was pretty darn hooked on was good old weed.

Yup! The cannabis is so hard to give up 🙂 The irony is I am dating a pot farmer now and have an infinite supply of it and yet have been totally clean for 59 days of weed (it has been over a year without alcohol). I could never keep my booze count straight but dear god I keep track of the days without weed.

 

1 hour ago, manymoretodays said:

I'm his Mom.   Best job I've ever had.   All I can do is be a good example now.

You sound like a great mom, @manymoretodays. He is one lucky person.

[manymoretodays]

Oh FGW.  I know.  They get it sometimes.......the W/D stuff and what goes with it.  It's so great.  Just listening to some of the shares sometimes.  And the wording.  It's a comfort.  I'm really bonded with many, in the good old fellowship now.  Wherever I go.  That's what I like about it too.  It's everywhere.

 

And woah......I could not date a pot farmer!  That's precious.   Oh......you'll feel so great when you get past the early W/D from weed.  I mean I did.  It took awhile for my brain to fully clear.  I love learning and being social now without anything.  I was fortunate and lucky with my drinking I think.........episodic binges.  Never dry this long though.  Not since I was a teenager.  It feels good.

 

They were pretty clear with me that sober was no pot, no alcohol.........nothing. 

I've got my numbers lined up on my phone for when I go to see some live music with my son/Sun........in case I find myself wandering to the bar or something.  I'm feeling just a little nervous.  I've never been to this venue before, so don't know what to expect.  As long as I can get herbal tea, or a diet pepsi, or even water..........I think I'll be good.  Just to be on the safe side though......the phone numbers......

 

Thank you.  I'm a lucky Mom.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by manymoretodays
Sun

[FarmGirlWorks]

I dreamed that I was drunk again... I had given my number to someone, was feeling loose but all of a sudden remembered that I was in AA and damn! I think it is WD fatigue and being uncomfortable with my life situation and wanting a substance -- any substance -- to make it better fast. I am okay with not drinking anymore. The weed is more of a desire mainly because it has genuine health benefits and it did give me a release. Anyways, that was the first time I have had a drinking dream that I remember!

[manymoretodays]

I dreamed that I had to take Lexapro....and had forgotten to or something.  Weird and vague dream.  I, when on it, forgot a 5 mg dose once in a blue moon.  It was my sole med for a long time.   I took it in the a.m.   I would just wait until the next morning for my usual dose and generally had no problems.  It was a rarity.  Weird dream though.  I know....I know.....on the herb/weed/MJ.  It had a health benefit .....  until it didn't for me.  I only realized that after my abstinance though.  Tres' .......hmmm.....tis what it was says I.

[India]

My issue with 12 steps in relation to prescription dependence is that the subtext is that it is somehow requires a moral inventory, that it is somehow the character of the person that has lead to the 'addiction. At the same time I have heard people in the group's talk about " being born an addict" rather than any outside force or the fact that ppl are blindly unwittingly being led into pharmaceutical dependence and it is the drug that is causing physiological changes that throw ppl into severe and protracted withdrawal. I do know ppl from these groups who have come off heroin and say it is much simpler and short term. The same as with alcohol, severe but finite and relatively quick withdrawals. I think it works for these substances for some. However, psychiatric drug survivors are incredibly fragile from the protracted nature of these symptoms. Unfortunately, there are no other alternatives to this community in the u.k. and it does provide a sense of community. I did find it helpful for alcohol some years back. I went to a meeting last week to try and discuss my antidepressant withdrawal but I could tell there was a disconnect. Just banding around a few ideas. The withdrawals have affected my cognitive capacities so it is hard to type and say as much as I would like. What I mean is that I think some of the principlesappeal but I feel like ppl need gentleness and self love during withdrawal not a deconstruction of their moral characters like in step 4. That's the last thing you need when you are already experiencing a loss of identity and confidence based on the trauma of med withdrawal. Still, each to their own.

[manymoretodays]

Hi India,

Oh yes.  I hear what you are saying.

It's a fine balance between doing the self examination the AA way and still being kind to oneself.  And especially during withdrawal.

I mean I'm talking years for me......now........to be able to do the self examination, with the rigorous honesty required.........and then not go to pieces over it completely.

Which I did.....on a few run through s with my 4th step work.....if not to pieces........well, the timing just wasn't right.

 

I don't know.  As far as alcohol withdrawal and heroin withdrawal being easier.  "They" also say cigarettes are one of the worst to come off.  For, now, I've met plenty of other alcoholics AND heroin users, or ex users.......as well as all other matter of substance users and abusers.  And they go through it.......oh, they do........protracted withdrawals.

 

I'm thinking with our psychotropic drug withdrawals, perhaps there is more long lasting physical.......as well as a gap in the return of cognition.  And then......for me........there's always the now, could be, increased sensitivities to all manner of food, medications, supplements, odors,  environments, etc. to be watching out for.  Knock on wood.......so far, so good for me with things.  Huge gaps in cognitive delays returning to normal, in some of those users of some of those "street drugs" too. 

 

One has to be......oh, so patient sometimes.  I've seen lot's of miracles though........even in just 3 or so years of AA.  Oh......and elsewhere too.  Here.

 

Fluorescent lights for long periods......not good for me and my nervous system.  I can work around that though.

 

And then, for some.......doing it right.......the whole psychotropic withdrawal.......harm free approach, like we advocate here..........well, they need not struggle or suffer so much at all I think.  Especially if they haven't been prescribed for.....for years, and belittled, due to a non-illness that they are being told they have.  Labeled and told......."hey, you are NOT normal".  Eh, normal= a setting on the washing machine......that's my favorite definition of that. 

 

In AA, I've found.......we hug each other and we embrace our not normal ness.  It's a good tribe.  I LOVE the steps.  It all came at a really good time for me.

Hi, I'm mmt, I'm an alcoholic!  LOL, makes me smile.  I wear a lot of hats these days.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

Same, just banding around ideas.  I'm not the authority.  Do you have meet-up type groups in the UK?  Where you could even form your own community of interest and then support?  We do.  Offline stuff usually.  You can find a group to go to a concert with or have jam sessions with or a book club.......whatever.  FGW did a withdrawal group that way in her area.

Edited November 12, 2018 by manymoretodays

[Steve61]

Hi India, MMT. In my view , although the withdrawals from my ad’s can be very similar to my withdrawals from alcohol there are lots of differences. I am using the 12 steps to help me through the ad withdrawals but I believe I could get through this without them. With alcoholism the 12 steps were/are essential. I need a personality change to stay sober, I don’t believe that I do with ad’s. I could not have stayed sober with the personality that I had when I first stopped drinking. I was full of fear, anger , resentment,self pity. You name it. I had to change that to stay sober. The 12 steps helped me to achieve that.  These withdrawals are hard but knowledge from this site will get me through. 

 

Ive been sober a lot of years and looking back it took a long time for my brain to heal from alcohol abuse. I had protracted withdrawals with alcohol . It lasted years. I think , personally, that it all gets a bit confusing for the alcoholic/addict who stops drinking and then stops taking ad’s in the first 2 or 3 years of sobriety. How much is the brain still healing from alcoholism when the ad withdrawal kicks in ? If there hasn’t been an attempt at the 12 steps and a change in behaviour/ attitude/personality hasn’t taken place and then an attempt at ad withdrawal is taken on, how much is it the ad withdrawal and how much is it the alcoholism that is playing with our brains ? It can certainly get muddled. 

 

I’ve seen people in AA (sober) suffer for years before finally finding peace. When I stopped drinking, I had to stop blaming others. I thought that my drinking had always been everybody else’s fault. Well , it wasn’t !!! That’s why step 4 was all about my part in everything. Ad’s are different. That isn’t all my fault . I have a lot of sympathy for people on here who blame the medical profession for their predicament. Sympathy is no good for any alcoholic  who is blaming anyone or anything for their drinking. It doesn’t help.In fact it will help them to drink !! I drank because I am an alcoholic. Keep it simple. 

 

Good luck

My name’s Steve, Im an alcoholic/addict.

 

 

 

[FarmGirlWorks]

5 hours ago, Steve61 said:

Ive been sober a lot of years and looking back it took a long time for my brain to heal from alcohol abuse. I had protracted withdrawals with alcohol . It lasted years. I think , personally, that it all gets a bit confusing for the alcoholic/addict who stops drinking and then stops taking ad’s in the first 2 or 3 years of sobriety. How much is the brain still healing from alcoholism when the ad withdrawal kicks in ? If there hasn’t been an attempt at the 12 steps and a change in behaviour/ attitude/personality hasn’t taken place and then an attempt at ad withdrawal is taken on, how much is it the ad withdrawal and how much is it the alcoholism that is playing with our brains ? It can certainly get muddled.

Thank you for this @Steve61. This is so enlightening to hear from another person/alcoholic who went through the process of getting sober and now AD WD. I quit taking AD (sertraline) cold turkey/fast taper and then two months later stopped drinking and now am in perimenopause... lots of changes to my poor body and brain all at once. At first my belief was that this is all AD WD and that I came off alcohol without issue. But now, as I enter my first stab at Step 4 -- scary! -- I am coming around to the fact that alcoholism is weaved in there too. And of course perimenopause is just a cherry on top. I've been having vivid dreams of relapsing. I guess the relentlessness of the struggle is getting to me.

 

Thanks for the experience from an alcoholic in WD. I go to meetings but feel like I have to confine my experiences/shares to alcoholism not WD.

[Steve61]

@FarmGirlWorks I honestly think that the healing from the alcohol can take years and then there is the work on the steps to find that elusive peace. It’s a long job. Throw the ad wd’s into the mix and it can all get very muddled. I personally know a man that goes to the local meetings and has been sober 25 years. Will not do the steps, says that he doesn’t need them.Stays sober by going to meetings. I’ve never known such an unhappy recovering alcoholic !! His shares consist of moaning about everyone else in the world . He us convinced that he cannot change !!! He won’t change without doing the steps, that is for certain. I would think that he was still in withdrawal if I didn’t know differently.

There is a lot more than just stopping drinking to this sobriety . AA wouldn’t be needed if it was just about stopping drinking. We would stop, go through the withdrawals and then be happy. Unfortunately it is very rare that it happens like that.We are left with all sorts of character defects that we have to get to grips with. Step 4 was hard for me. I never realised how selfish and self centred I was. That’s the nature of addiction though. Ad withdrawal is completely different in that respect.

You have 3 major things going on in your life and they probably overlap. Be patient and work the steps and never, ever underestimate the power of alcoholism. People are dying of it as I write this.

Good luck

Steve

[FarmGirlWorks]

53 minutes ago, Steve61 said:

I honestly think that the healing from the alcohol can take years and then there is the work on the steps to find that elusive peace. It’s a long job.

Ugh... I keep wanting to "project manage" healing in that I have told myself, "you'll be recovered in 6 months." Which then turned to 9 months, 1 year, 18 months, and now I am inwardly saying, "no more than 2 years!" The one-day-at-a-time and acceptance is there in better days and in darker days (like now) more difficult to access. But that's it, right?

 

56 minutes ago, Steve61 said:

Step 4 was hard for me. I never realised how selfish and self centred I was. That’s the nature of addiction though. Ad withdrawal is completely different in that respect.

I feel tangible fear -- and hope -- about digging into Step 4. I was reading about Step 4 in the 12x12 last night and could feel my tummy start to knot. But it is essential as I think not dealing with my personality will hamper the rest of my life. I agree that AD WD is totally different and need to try as hard as possible to not weave the WD issues (inability to meet sometimes when depressed or fear that I am lazy because of all the time lost, etc). It's complex and glad there are others here who have dealt with it.

[Steve61]

@FarmGirlWorks The one day at a time is the most important suggestion that I received in AA. It’s all about today.. The only reason that I’m talking about the time span is because we are dealing with withdrawal from ad’s as well and I think that it’s easy to forget that the healing process from alcohol can take a long time as well. It’s a funny thing talking about ‘recovered’ with alcoholism. Even now I say that I am recovering. It’s a lifetimes journey. I don’t mean to dishearten you by saying these things. We do all recover at different rates. I have another friend in AA who has been sober about 26 years. What I would call good sobriety and he always says ‘the best is yet to come ‘. It was so important to change the way I thought and the way I viewed life and coped with situations when I stopped drinking. The wd’s from ad’s is more about the knowledge of what the drug has done to me and what to expect so that I don’t think that I’m going mad.  There are lots of people on ad’s who have horrific times getting off them but once they are off for months or years etc. they are recovered and don’t necessarily have to do what we have to do as addicts, which is change the way that we think. AA stands for altered attitudes as well. Resentments are a good example. I was full of resentment when I drank. I’m not sure that I could live with one for very long now without endangering my sobriety.I have to get rid of it one way or another.

 

I am going through a wave at the moment but the good news for me is that the last thing on my mind is a drink. I want my brain to heal. I’m sensitive to alcohol, it affects me in a very bad way. I’m finding that I’m sensitive to lots of supplements as well ,so for me, at the moment , it’s acceptance, one day at a time, exercise, eat healthy and step 11 - meditation. Steps 10 and 12 as well. 

 

We we will get there FGW. It always used to help me when I had been around AA for a few months and then 12 months etc , if I didn’t feel too good , the old timers would say ‘It gets better’.  It always gave me hope. It gets better. 

 

Steve 

 

 

 

[manymoretodays]

18 hours ago, FarmGirlWorks said:

Ugh... I keep wanting to "project manage" healing in that I have told myself, "you'll be recovered in 6 months." Which then turned to 9 months, 1 year, 18 months, and now I am inwardly saying, "no more than 2 years!" The one-day-at-a-time and acceptance is there in better days and in darker days (like now) more difficult to access. But that's it, right?

 

I feel tangible fear -- and hope -- about digging into Step 4. I was reading about Step 4 in the 12x12 last night and could feel my tummy start to knot. But it is essential as I think not dealing with my personality will hamper the rest of my life. I agree that AD WD is totally different and need to try as hard as possible to not weave the WD issues (inability to meet sometimes when depressed or fear that I am lazy because of all the time lost, etc). It's complex and glad there are others here who have dealt with it.

 

19 hours ago, Steve61 said:

You have 3 major things going on in your life and they probably overlap. Be patient and work the steps and never, ever underestimate the power of alcoholism. People are dying of it as I write this.

 

20 hours ago, FarmGirlWorks said:

Thanks for the experience from an alcoholic in WD. I go to meetings but feel like I have to confine my experiences/shares to alcoholism not WD.

 

On 11/16/2018 at 6:27 AM, Steve61 said:

Hi India, MMT. In my view , although the withdrawals from my ad’s can be very similar to my withdrawals from alcohol there are lots of differences. I am using the 12 steps to help me through the ad withdrawals but I believe I could get through this without them. With alcoholism the 12 steps were/are essential. I need a personality change to stay sober, I don’t believe that I do with ad’s. I could not have stayed sober with the personality that I had when I first stopped drinking. I was full of fear, anger , resentment,self pity. You name it. I had to change that to stay sober. The 12 steps helped me to achieve that.  These withdrawals are hard but knowledge from this site will get me through. 

 

 

Oh yes!  Great thoughts.

I think, indeed, there is overlap.......just in the alcoholism picture and then W/D picture.  I just know......that stepwork AND sponsorship(having one, being one) has really, truly literally, helped me come to terms with my own underlying condition.  I can finally begin to release some of the baggage I carried before psych drugging, had me all numbed up, and changed my personality even.  It's weird......being back to feeling like I did........perhaps at age 14 or 15.  As that's when my alcoholism became more active. 

We just don't have the resources here to deal with alcoholics, addicts, and/or as well as W/D from psych drugs/medications.  And although......I can't see.......finding a way to get a methamphetamine(street drug) user to taper.  I can and will use my experiences with A/D's and other medications......to perhaps influence, and educate, some of those on prescription opioids and benzo's around tapering.  Rather than the CT approach that would be more likely advocated for in AA.

 

When I say "alcoholism"  I mean it all.......as far addiction and alcohol overuse.  It doesn't really mean psych meds.  Yet the overlap is apparent.  To me.

 

I love what you shared Steve61, on your thoughts around the medications/drugs being used after sobriety, from the other, and how you feel about that.  I don't think I quoted that part.......but I heard you.  Listened.  And hmmm.......some great points there.

 

I liked the Joe and Charlie tapes or talks......they can be found on youtube, FGW.  They do a series on all the steps, in audio.  It's pretty entertaining.  And I used to get annoyed at some of the audios.  Like I'd want to talk back to them or start thinking.......oh, this is so stupid.  I'm not technically an "old timer"  but yah........today is good, stick around, keep coming back.  And......we Love you!

 

Happy gratitude.

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

oh yes, hi, I'm mmt, still an alcoholic, in recovery,  fortunate and grateful too!

Edited November 17, 2018 by manymoretodays
grammar, additional

[Hibari]

Hi,

 

I'm looking for support on how to connect back to program.  I'm in Alanon for 5 years and it helped tremendously till I got into brutal withdrawal about 3 months ago.

I haven't been able to get to in person meetings and now the messaging of the daily readers feels so trivial in compassion to what I'm going through.   

 

I can't find comfort in the words of the program.   I talk to my sponsor who is very supportive of me but it's not enough to fill me up. 

 

But even more devastating than that is my lack of connection to a power greater than myself.  I was just building a fledgling relationship with HP/God because I was afraid for may years.  But it had started and I was feeling more of that connection. 

 

Now, I feel so abandoned by God during this process and it has made me both angry and sad.

 

My goal for today, since I have lost everything else, my work, health, ability to go out in the world is to maybe get to an in person meeting if I can.  However, I am so anxious due to wd it's scary for me to go out and I've been housebound quite a bit. 

 

How do you use the program when withdrawal is so devastating to your body, mind and spirit?

 

Thanks. 

[FarmGirlWorks]

2 hours ago, Hibari said:

But even more devastating than that is my lack of connection to a power greater than myself.  I was just building a fledgling relationship with HP/God because I was afraid for may years.  But it had started and I was feeling more of that connection. 

 

Now, I feel so abandoned by God during this process and it has made me both angry and sad.

Hi @Hibari: I hear you. The program provides me comfort but when it comes to WD, I feel like it is somewhat helpful but in no way addresses the utter body/soul/spirit despair wrought upon us. I hear what you are saying about that connection between your HP and you being gone and feeling abandoned during this process. Totally get that. How I think of it now is an analogy with a radio dial (remember those?!). God is always there, transmitting love and messages. But sometimes the dial isn't tuned into the "God Station" because we just can't. That's okay. God is still there and sometimes we can hit that station, sometimes not so much. I feel like WD messes with our ability to tune in. Anyways, that's how I think of it. I am almost utterly alone (no family, few friends) that I have to believe God is out there or there'd be nothing. Good thoughts to you.

[Hibari]

16 minutes ago, FarmGirlWorks said:

Hi @Hibari: I hear you. The program provides me comfort but when it comes to WD, I feel like it is somewhat helpful but in no way addresses the utter body/soul/spirit despair wrought upon us. I hear what you are saying about that connection between your HP and you being gone and feeling abandoned during this process. Totally get that. How I think of it now is an analogy with a radio dial (remember those?!). God is always there, transmitting love and messages. But sometimes the dial isn't tuned into the "God Station" because we just can't. That's okay. God is still there and sometimes we can hit that station, sometimes not so much. I feel like WD messes with our ability to tune in. Anyways, that's how I think of it. I am almost utterly alone (no family, few friends) that I have to believe God is out there or there'd be nothing. Good thoughts to you.

Thank you. 

 

The grief I feel these days over the loss of my life is one of the loneliest things I have ever felt.  How can I feel such intense grief for so long? 

 

The last time i sat in a meeting and listened to a speaker share on there recovery, I felt envy.  Yes, the person had struggled but they were now okay and in strong recovery. I longed for her life. And just felt separate in my experience.  

 

Thank you for mentioning the God channel.  There is a lot static on the line for me right now but maybe it will clear. 

 

[Rabe]

@FarmGirlWorks and Hibari,   I too struggle so with my spirituality now.  I used to feel, see, and hear even God in my life every day...ther is such a void now.  It is so so hard because, as you said, fGW, I too have no friends or support where I am and my family does not understand and wont even try...so it is so so lonely.  

I would quit alcohol a hundred time over rather than go through this.  There is a HUGE difference....fo me anyway...I dont know that I can navigate this road as I did the other...time will tell.  Thinking of you both...and God is there...he doesnt move...I believe we do...but I also believe much of it is the WD as well.

💜

[Hibari]

Yes, navigating this road is so very different for me than recovery ever has been.  

 

I was planning on getting to a meeting tonight that is so convenient but I have such a bad headache and I'm so hyper from my last tiny dose of meds that I can't sit sill.   Yet I'm so lonely at the same time. 

 

Rabe, you said what I feel.  What I hear in the rooms doesn't seem to touch me at all because I think. I would trade this for all the struggles I hear people having with their qualifiers. And that reveals to me the dept of this painful journey.  Everyday I am questioning why I chose to come off this last med.  

 

My close friends are not in the city. All my support is by phone or on line.  I have some family support but as I've mentioned before, I am basically housebound.  I can't work or go out much and it's very isolating. 

 

I just want a chance to take what I've learned in this process about what really matters.  I ask God for that every day.