☼ SaveMooses -- cold turkey off Lexapro

[SaveMooses]

I have unfortunately not been able to successfully for months to taper off...forgetting what to take when and what not. I quit Lexapro cold turkey May 22 and now unable to work or see straight most of the time. EVERYTHING affects my brain. Terrible withdrawals, but I am so sick and damn tired of weaning and not successfully doing it. I'm already on the road to Hell and don't want to get back on that worthless drug (it was NOT doing anything for my depression) only to postpone the trip to Hell again. Is there ANYTHING else out there that can help THROUGH the withdrawals? Valium? Booze? Something that doesn't take 5 years to get off of?

 

It terrifies me I could be like this permanently, because I WILL NOT choose to live this way forever.

 

I started taking SAM-e (400 mg) a day just yesterday. Any thoughts?

[Altostrata]

Hello, SaveM. Since this is your introductory post, I made an Intro topic for you.

 

Personally, if I were you, I'd get the Lexapro liquid as soon as possible and go back on a very low dose, maybe 3mg?

 

If reinstating works, your symptoms will be relieved and you can taper slowly from there, using the liquid.

 

It's important to reinstate as soon as possible, before your nervous system settles into a dysfunctional pattern, which is what is producing your withdrawal symptoms.

 

To my knowledge, SAM-e doesn't help, but who knows, everyone is different.

[summer]

Just want to add that Sam-E doesn't seem to help at all. In fact, for most people, it seems to make it worse.

 

Vit B has helped me greatly. If you decide to try it, please do so by starting with a very small amount. It tends to make some people more anxious. Fish oil seems to be helpful also.

 

IMO, if you decide to go back on Lexapro, I would go on 10mg. I doubt that 3mg is going to do very much for you. Once you are stable on the 10mg, give it at least a month, you can taper VERY slowly. Many people use the liquid and are very successful.

[Altostrata]

summer, why do you suggest 10mg of Lexapro? It's a much stronger drug than Paxil or Celexa.

 

SaveM, how much Lexapro were you taking when you quit a month ago?

[SaveMooses]

Alta and Summer, thanks for your replies......

 

Alta, I have been off these evil chemicals for about a month solid now. You REALLY think getting back on and tapering won't just delay this Hell again? I have been taking 10 mg tablets. I seem to be unable to taper slow enough is why I just jumped off the plank. And like I said, the worst part is it does NOTHING for my depression.

 

Summer, I should've mentioned that I take 300mg Omega 3 Fish Oil 3 times a day and a B6,B12 & C Complex twice a day. When I started those about 6 months ago, I did feel improvement in my mood. I also have to take Raw Thyroid 3 times a day. My thyroid tests come back "normal" but having to pull over every 30 minutes to nap like a narcoleptic ain't "normal". My doc gave me a prescription Levonine-sumpthin' which made me feel AWAKE.....but because it is a stupid chemical....my joints started feeling like they were on FIRE - hence....the Raw Thyroid. It seems to be keeping me from acting like a narcoleptic.......except for these withdrawal symptoms.

 

I read things that say it can take from "6-months to years" to wean off. I honestly don't know how I'm supposed to take 6 more minutes...

 

Let's back up, too. The REASON I want off all of the anti-depressants is to do a "start over". Since my Zoloft quit working a year ago, it occurred to me, "What if it is just a HORMONAL imbalance, or I just need a little seratonin or something like that?" I certainly don't want to go through shock therapy because some idiot doctor takes a look at an annual blood test and says, "CLEAR!" while zapping what I have left. As I have told these people, if you have a headache every single day and you take Excedrin for it every single day, aren't ya gonna wanna know what is CAUSING the headache? I'm awaiting hormonal blood test results and have begun harassing my doc to make that test available to me every two weeks until I can no longer afford it. I have GOT to start mapping some of these things. Hormones are SO random, do they really think they are going to hit the low testosterone or progesterone THE ONE AND ONLY DAY I get the test done????????

 

Anyway, thank you for listening and I appreciate all the input I can get.

[summer]

summer, why do you suggest 10mg of Lexapro? It's a much stronger drug than Paxil or Celexa.

 

 

 

Sorry... I forgot it's a stronger med.

[summer]

Did you ever consider having a sleep study done? It seems to me you would be the perfect candidate. It's possible you have sleep apnea, which is causing what you are feeling during the day.

 

I just had a sleep study done and I'm waiting for the results.

[Altostrata]

SaveM -- it may be the steps you were taking to taper weren't small enough. Very gradual tapering can reduce withdrawal symptoms. It does take patience.

 

Cold turkey is to be the riskiest route in terms of withdrawal symptoms and long-term withdrawal. Yes, at this point, if you go back on a small dose, it may reduce your withdrawal symptoms. Or it may not.

 

Liquid Lexapro enables you to taper by fractions of a milligram, if necessary, to reduce withdrawal symptoms.

 

That was in answer to your question if there's anything to reduce the withdrawal symptoms.

 

It's up to you. In this game, you pays your money and you takes your choice. You may be lucky and have withdrawal symptoms for only a few weeks or months.

 

The thyroid hormone is a complicating factor. If I were you, I'd go to another doctor about your thyroid, for a second opinion. It can be dangerous to take thyroid medication if you don't actually need it. The thyroid hormone can be contributing to your withdrawal symptoms.

 

It's possible, though on the unlikely side, that your sleepiness was a side effect of Lexapro or of tapering. Lexapro is usually activating -- causing nervousness and insomnia -- but in your case, who knows?

 

PS Nobody "needs" serotonin -- that's a myth. There aren't any tests to show high or low serotonin in the brain. By now, even psychiatry is embarrassed it ever told people they have a serotonin deficiency.

[SaveMooses]

Alto (sorry, was calling you Alta before) - Psychiatry ought to be ashamed of itself for letting this go on and on and on. Why ISN'T there tests for seratonin and other natural occuring chemicals in the body? Over 40 years ago, my grandmother went through electroshock therapy because they didn't know how to "fix" her. She lives with me and has three emotions. Nothing most of the time, she may laugh at the TV and only cried once when her son died. 40 years and we've gotten nowhere. I will ask my doctor about liquid Lexapro. I know "you play and you pay" but they don't effing tell you what the REAL consequences are. Patience is a virtue I do not have...

 

Summer, I have been tested for sleep apnea and everything. Actually, I test "normal" on every single test that comes up. But THAT must be why I want to stick a gun in my mouth. Been through counseling, lead a very blessed life, but want nothing but to be dead. THAT isn't in medical priorities. Viagra, yes. Mental health, no. WHAT THE HELL?!?!?! Sorry, I am very angry at the general medical industry.

 

Thank you for your input.

[Altostrata]

You can't test serotonin in the brain -- you'd have to remove the brain to do it.

 

Serotonin is one of the most abundant hormones in the body. The largest amount is in the gut.

 

Psychiatry has been faking it regarding balancing neurotransmitters for 30 years. All you've been told about that is untrue, every bit of it.

 

Yes, it's a disgrace doctors don't know what they should know to protect patients' wellbeing. There are billions of dollars in pharma profits on the other side of the balance.

 

SaveM, you're part of a vanguard of patients angry about this.

 

As for emotional issues, please look at our Finding Meaning forum, and other articles on the site. All of this pain has to be good for something, right?

 

If you want to live drug-free, you have to find another way.

[Brandy]

I'm already on the road to Hell and don't want to get back on that worthless drug (it was NOT doing anything for my depression) only to postpone the trip to Hell again....

 

It terrifies me I could be like this permanently, because I WILL NOT choose to live this way forever.

 

HI, SM. I understand how you feel. But these meds work very differently on the body than most meds and it certainly took me a lot of time and reading to get a handle on why the "usual rules" don't apply.

 

The suggestion to go back on a dose of the med to stabilize and then taper slowly is not to postpone the problem, it is to give your brain and nervous system the best conditions for healing from what these meds have done to it.

 

Psychotropic meds are not like taking an aspiring, where it gets into your system, makes you feel better for a while, then leaves your system. Psychotropic meds do not give immediate relief - they work instead by making changes in neuroreceptor sites at the cellular level.

 

Don't be alarmed - these changes can heal. But when you cold-turkey, the change is such a shock to the brain that it works against the brain's ability to heal. Healing is the only thing that will help the problems you are dealing with. We've all dealt with this - some of us are largely recovered, others here are just starting the process. You will read some "horror stories" here (and mine was one), but please bear in mind that those are from those of us who tapered much too fast (not knowing the problems that causes), or the ultimate "too fast" which is cold-turkey.

 

There are a few people who can just stop taking these meds with little or no problem. This group is for the many of us (and there are many out there!) who can't. We don't know the reasons for this, but they're clearly physical and probably a combination of many factors. If you had problems tapering before, going off abruptly will only make things worse.

 

But I suspect that you probably tapered too fast the previous time or times. (It would help if you could list your taper schedule - dates and doses of each drop in dose, as best you can remember them.) I tapered off over about six weeks at my doctor's well-meaning instructions, and it turned out that wasn't much better (if at all) than cold-turkeying - it still was too much of a shock to the brain to permit normal healing.

 

It's a paradox, but those of us who withdraw too fast or cold-turkey not only tend to suffer more, but generally suffer longer. This is one of the things that people have trouble wrapping their minds around (I was one!). Once you see it as a healing process and that the brain needs you to decrease slowly enough for the conditions to permit the healing process, it starts falling into place. And while you may still have some symptoms, at least at some points, if you taper slowly enough and stabilize at each new drop before dropping again, it won't be the trip to Hell you've been experiencing. And you will probably recover faster than those of us who didn't know about the very slow safe tapering method advised here.

 

You expressed a concern about feeling this way permanently. Even if it's hard to accept, the best way to avoid that (or more accurately, long-term suffering of the kind you're starting to experience now) is to go back on a dose of the lexapro that will stabilize you, not to give yourself a break in suffering, but to get your brain stabilized in order to taper slowly and in increasingly tiny amounts where it has the conditions for healing.

 

And healing is what ultimately matters.

 

It will not take five years! It will take some time, but most people say the symptoms are generally so minimal that way, they find the time goes much faster than they expected. Believe me, as one who did not know to do this until it was too late for me to go back on, I wish I had done the very slow taper. I reallly believe I would not only have had less suffering than the hell I was in, but would not have spent the years in hell once off the med that I have. People I know who had amazingly similar symptoms as mine, were fine much sooner than my more limited recovery has been, in far less time, even though they did have a recovery period that is a part of the healing process and there is no substance that will make it go away. (Most supplements that help us when not in withdrawal have very different effects in withdrawal and make most people feel worse, not better, though there are some exceptions.) The nervous system goes through huge rebalancing in order to heal and repair itself and get back to normal functioning, and there is no way to measure what's going on that might not change to the other extreme shortly. Left to its own healing resources, the brain knows best how to repair itself and regain normal balance of the complex nervous system. But it can be a bit of a roller coaster ride for a time as the body heals and fine-tunes all these things, and affecting that process generally makes for more suffering (even if something helps initially) and slows the healing process.

 

By the way, SAMe caused the worst reaction for me, and I used to take it regularly before withdrawal for medical reasons with NO problem, only benefits. When I started taking it in withdrawal (for different reasons - this time hoping it might help my withdrawal symptoms), it seemed to help a bit at first, but after a while it turned on me and caused the most terrifying experience of my entire severe (from too-fast tapering) withdrawal. The body is in a huge state of flux while healing from these meds. So please be careful.

 

I really think your best chance for relief and also for (paradoxical as it seems) healing faster, is to go back on a dose of lexapro, stabilize at that does (it may take at least 3-6 weeks to fully stabilize; the amount of time for stabilizing varies greatly among individuals and probably has a lot to do with individual differences in metabolizing the med as well as other physical factors), then proceeding with what likely will be a much slower, but supportive of true healing, taper that this group can guide you through.

 

Recovery from these meds takes a very different way of thinking than what we're used to or even what most doctors know to do. But it works and as I said, ironically actual recovery time is likely to be much shorter as well as less suffering.

[SaveMooses]

Brandy,

 

Thank you so much for your input........ "sigh" ........ I see what you are saying. Like I told Alto, I will talk to my doc about getting some liquid Lexapro and see if I can wean off that way. Fortunately my boyfriend is TOTALLY OCD so he can help me keep track of exactly how much I'm taking and for how long. "sigh" This totally sucks, though.

 

Alto, like I said, I was on 10 mg before..... you think I should just start taking the 10 mg and taper from there? I have been off for a solid month now....maybe I can start with 5 mg? I know none of you are medical doctors but you people seem to know what you are talking about! A lot more than the idiot pharmaceutical companies!

 

Thank you so much! xoxo!

[Altostrata]

5mg might be a good place to start. Be sure and take it at the same time each day -- the OCD bf can help.

 

xoxo back atcha!

 

PS Is your avatar a Rothko?

[SaveMooses]

I have no idea what a Rothko is!

[Altostrata]

Mark Rothko paintings -- see http://www.rothkochapel.org/

 

and http://blogs.artinfo.com/modernartnotes/2010/06/mark-rothkos-black-canvases-in-the-light/

[SaveMooses]

Wow! I'm a fan now! Thanks! Very true.........

 

Bottom's up! 5mg Lexapro down..... let the countdown begin.

 

The boyfriend has promised to help me keep track. Thanks!

[SaveMooses]

Okay, people, I took 5 measley mg of Lexapro and seem to be feeling much better today. Not 100% but much better. I don't know if is because of the relief of not going in and facing everyone at work today or if it's the Lexapro. I guess we'll find out tomorrow! I am SO PISSED that I was never told that Lexapro is stronger than a lot of other drugs and that you can't get off these things! I think they should be REQUIRED TO TELL YOU that you will have the hardest time on earth trying to get off Lexapro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Rage scream)

 

Thanks for listening.

[Patience]

Hi SaveMooses,

 

It looks like you were indoctrinated into the SSRI rollercoaster about the same time as I was. I was 22 in 1989 when a doctor had to convince me that I had depression and talked me into taking prozac. I took my last dose of Celexa (similar to Lexapro?) in February of 2008. I did an 11 week taper from 20 mg. Things have gotten better, but I'm still having problems three years later. The biggest mistake I made was not reinstating at 5 mg and tapering slowly from there. I believe the recommendation is to do a 10% drop every few weeks, but you should check with others here on this.

 

These drugs definitely interfere with the thyroid. There have been reports of people becoming hypothyroid (underactive gland) while on an SSRI and then having to stop thyroid medications once off the SSRIs. (They definitely wreaked havoc with my thyroid medication. I was overmedicated and not feeling well and that's why I ended up on these drugs! They interfered with the action of my thyroid medication and effectively put me at a therapeutic thyroid dose.) I'm guessing your doctor prescribed Levothyroxine. The brand names in the U.S. are Synthyroid, Levoxyl, and Levothroid. It takes six weeks to stabilize on thyroid drugs, so testing should be done six weeks after a dose change. Levothyroxine is indeed synthetic - it's thyroid hormone (but only one of four thyroid hormones, known as T4). There are other thyroid drugs (Armour/dessicated thyroid and Tri-iodothyronine (also known as Cytomel or T3). Have you had your thyroid tested? If so, the tests you want are TSH, free T3, and free T4. You can post your results or PM me if you want another opinion on interpreting them. It's also helpful to have your thyroid antibodies measured (the test is called TPO - thyroid peroxidase) to find out of there's an autoimmune problem causing thyroid issues.

 

All supplements cause me anxiety. The only things that have worked for me are relaxation (yoga, breathing exercises), journal writing, cognitive behavior therapy, rest, eating a whole foods diet (grain free), and time. Different things work for different people. I'm sure you'll figure out what works for you to get you off these drugs completely. Just take it slow to give your brain a chance to adjust to the decreasing doses of Lexapro.

[SaveMooses]

Patience..... you're name says it all. You are a virtue I do not have!

 

Thank you so much for your input. Actually, I am awaiting multiple hormonal test results this week. I INSISTED to my doc that I wanted every hormone that can be tested and thyroid is definitely one of them. In the past my T3 tested "normal" but on the low side, so that Cytomel is the drug my doc gave me. Made me feel MUCH better, but then side effects within the 3rd week was ALL my joints were on fire. I debated with myself if I could live with the pain or go back to going to sleep constantly, but the pain won. I had to quit Cytomel and discovered Raw Thyroid online. What Raw Thyroid is are dry frozen cow parts (spleen, thyroids, etc.) from poor cows in New Zealand. I take 1 capsule 3 times a day (as they are not time-released) and it's working! I don't pass out like a narcoleptic anymore.

 

TODAY, I called my doctor's office and finally got through. I told them I want all hormone tests EVERY TWO WEEKS whether or not my insurance will pay for them or not. I want to make sure my depression isn't just hormonal. They actually agreed and I get another test on July 2nd. I just need to map my hormones. If testosterone is too low (for a female) and that happens to coincide with the week I want to shoot myself in the head...then hey! Let's work on the testosterone levels!

 

I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT 5 MEASLY MG OF GETTING BACK ON LEXAPRO, and I'm finally feeling better. I was actually not too dizzy to drive to my counselor today. I actually worked 4 hours today from home. I'm so pissed off that drug companies are allowed to do this crap to us.

 

Thanks for the thyroid info....I'll let y'all know what the results are! I totally expect everything to be "normal". What EVER!

[SaveMooses]

I forgot to mention I went gluten-free about 3 weeks ago, too.

[SaveMooses]

Alto and Brandy - I just want you two to know that your help this week saved my life. I'm not saying I am cured and you never know what the future may bring, but you two with your advice DID save my life this week. I just wanted you to know that you helped more than you can ever know. I (and my family if they knew) thank you from the bottom of my heart. As you can tell, I am still feeling better. xoxo!

[Brandy]

I'm so glad we were of help!

 

Once you stabilize and then slowly taper off and recover, please "pay it forward" by helping others to learn how to best deal with what these drugs do!

 

I just want to clarify one thing, and then mention a few other thoughts.

 

 

summer, why do you suggest 10mg of Lexapro? It's a much stronger drug than Paxil or Celexa.

 

Sorry... I forgot it's a stronger med.

 

 

....I am SO PISSED that I was never told that Lexapro is stronger than a lot of other drugs and that you can't get off these things! I think they should be REQUIRED TO TELL YOU that you will have the hardest time on earth trying to get off Lexapro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Rage scream)

 

Thanks for listening.

 

I think the discussion about the potency of the various meds was just to determine what dose they were advising you to try going back on.

 

It's not that lexapro is harder to get off of (all SSRIs are hard to get off of, and generally the shorter-acting ones like paxil and - especially - effexor are the hardest in some ways). "Stronger" was referring to relative potencies of dosage.

 

Some SSRIs are equivalent potencies in mgs. of dosage, such as the celexa and paxil that Summer is familiar with.

 

But 10 mg. lexapro is roughly equivalent in strength to 20 mg. of paxil or 20 mg. celexa. The usual starting and therapeutic dose of paxil or celexa is 20, and the usual starting/therapeutic dose of lexapro is 10. So you were on a perfectly normal dose and there's nothing uniquely hard to get off of with lexapro. They just meant since you'd been off a month you shouldn't jump suddenly to a full dose, but rather take half the normal dose you'd been taking. With many common SSRIs that means reinstating at 10 instead of the previously taken 20 or so, but with lexapro that means taking 5 instead of 10. Withdrawal is frightening enough, so I didn't want you needed to be scared needlessly about being on lexapro. They're all a ***** for some of us to withdraw from, but I think tapering very slowly - as slowly as you need to - once you're stabilized, will be a hugely different experience than what you were going through and what too many of us did because we didn't know about very slow tapering!

 

As for the hormones, it's going to be tricky if not impossible to measure and treat them unless you have a non-medication related significant problem that needs to be addressed.

 

Both taking these meds and withdrawal cause hormone levels of all kinds to fluctuate - the medication affects the endocrine system, and in withdrawal they will fluctuate frequently as the body rebalances itself back to normal.

 

If you have a significant problem that needs to be addressed for your safety, it would have to be treated, but my experience (developed measurably low thyroid while on paxil) is that thyroid supplementation worsened my withdrawal symptoms. Even while still on the medication, it didn't make me feel much better, because the medication itself has huge sedating effects.

 

But in withdrawal, the medication made me feel so much worse, my doctor decided that my thyroid wasn't so low that it would be dangerous to stop the supplemental thyroid, so he tapered me off it quickly, and I felt much better. It's like some of the body's switches are turned off while on the med, then in withdrawal they're flipped back on (just a rough analogy for the surge of symptoms we get in withdrawal). Adding anything stimulating then, even if it helped us feel better when we experienced the sedating effects of a therapeutic dose of an SSRI, can make withdrawal worse.

 

There will be ups and downs in various hormone levels as you recover - not just thyroid but the entire endocrine system. But that's from the body trying to get back to normal balance. I doubt that frequent tests would be reliable, since things may change at any given time and frequent testing might be deceptive. Also some people, though not everyone, experience hypersensitive reactions to hormones and many other substances (ironically, especially including B vitamins and occasionally fish oil) in withdrawal and for some time after. So be aware that as you go lower in dose, and particularly when you're totally off, you may find you need to avoid for a while the very things that helped you feel better while on a full dose of the medication.

 

That was what happened to me. Now I still have to be careful what I take, but many years off the med, I'm able to take some again. Fortunately my thyroid is normal and I no longer even need the thyroid. I have a lot of fatigue and related symptoms, but it's from other things, not thyroid. Repeated tests show it quite normal, even though it was low while I was on the SSRI.

 

That isn't the case with some people whose low thyroid is from other causes, but I know one woman who had severe low thyroid but she still decided - with her doctors' agreement - that the thyroid supplementation was stimulating her withdrawal symptoms so badly that it was best not to take it. That's a decision that has to be made carefully with good doctors when one has a congenital low thyroid like she did, but she's doing great the last I heard!

 

So take care, especially once you're done tapering, and know that your hormone levels may fluctuate very frequently (I suspect some hormones fluctuate more than normal even within the day with some of us, but there's no way to test it). That's just speculation on my part, based on my experiences and how I felt when recovering.

 

(By the way, for anyone else reading this, anyone who's had their thyroid removed needs to take supplemental thyroid regardless. The same likely is true for anyone with extremely abnormal levels due to certain medical conditions. But that's a very different situation than SSRI-caused abnormalities, and would be readily apparent to doctors after testing is done.)

[SaveMooses]

Oh my goodness, Brandy. Thanks for the clarification. Was plotting against the Lexapro manufacturers in particular, but now they're ALL going down!

 

I still can't believe it. I'm still feeling better. No longer dizzy and not suffering through terrible migraines. Now I'm just back to regular ol' depression (cuz Lexapro wasn't working on that anyway) and tired. It's been a Hell of a ride and I'm pretty exhausted. Another big relief came yesterday (because I haven't been able to go to work since June 21st) in the form of an email from my boss saying they want to help me through my difficult times and be a crutch for me. For me not to worry about losing my job. 'WHEW' They expect me back July 5th and then we will have a "meeting". I'm thinking about going in with the story of being "pre-menopausal" to them because I don't wanna have to explain "crazy" to them and have them "look" at me wondering if I'm going to take them all out one day. Being 41 and the symptoms look the same, I think I can get away with it. Say I'm on "hormone" therapy. I know none of it is ANY of their business, but I had a major breakdown at work on June 21st and I'm sure ANY explanation would be helpful. I think I freaked everyone out.

 

Thank you for the info on paying particular attention to the thyroid. Actually, that is one of the tests that I will be getting bi-monthly. You're right that I may be just spinning my wheels since the hormones naturally fluctuate constantly, but .... I wanna see if SOMETHING goes totally outta whack. Maybe I can eventually go down to 2 Raw Thyroids a day if THAT is the reason my thyroid is acting a little "slow".

 

I have a question for anyone who can give an opinion:

 

I was on Zoloft for a long time and a year ago it just quit working. The doc gave me a higher dose (from 50mg to 100mg) with no change, so that's why she changed me to Lexapro. She said that Zoloft quits working on people sometimes, but when they get back on it later, it works again. Have you ever heard of this? I'm pondering getting back on Zoloft (NOT this week or month!) but being off the drug this last year prompted me to go to counseling (again). I actually was able to FINALLY work through some things 3 decades old!!! I'm afraid Zoloft was helping suppress things and not allowing me to work and cope through things the proper way (grief, every day life, etc.). I have been to many different types of counselors during many different stages of my life, but I think this last year has been more productive than any in the past BECAUSE my anti-depressant wasn't working. Ya know?

 

I always (on Zoloft) felt like I was "coping" and feeling like a "normal" person, but found out that I have been holding on to every little thing in my life since I was 5 years old! TOO MUCH! I have been able to let some of it go finally...I mean, ACTUALLY let it go. I'm hesitant to get on another antidepressant (even though I know it is a very real possibility that I have to be on one for the rest of my life) only to have it suppress things again. Anyone have any idea what I'm talking about and know of a drug that WON'T do that? I guess I know while I ask these questions, I truly know it is all a gamble.

[Altostrata]

SaveM, you're right it's none of their business at your job. I would just say something vague like "hormonal problem" and "they're watching my thyroid." Don't even hint at something age-prejudicial like perimenopause.

 

Glad we could help.

 

....I was on Zoloft for a long time and a year ago it just quit working. The doc gave me a higher dose (from 50mg to 100mg) with no change, so that's why she changed me to Lexapro. She said that Zoloft quits working on people sometimes, but when they get back on it later, it works again. Have you ever heard of this?....

Another adverse effect of antidepressant use that doctors don't talk about much is poop-out. This is thought to occur after long-term treatment because the serotonin receptors become maximally downregulated -- they shrink so much what's left just isn't doing anything in terms of serotonin-sensing.

 

Here' a paper about it Tardive dysphoria: The role of long term antidepressant use in inducing chronic depression. (If you get the full text, please send me a copy!)

 

This is probably why you didn't get an antidepressant effect from increasing the Zoloft dosage or from Lexapro. No serotonin uptake inhibitor is going to squeeze anything more out of those maximally downregulated receptors.

 

After you quit an antidepressant, your serotonin receptors repopulate. In some people, this is a slower process, and that's where withdrawal syndrome comes from. (Serotonergic downregulation affects feedback loops controlling ALL the hormonal systems in the body, including the thyroid.)

 

I guess once the poor things grow back, you can pound on them with Zoloft again. If I were you, I'd declare the war on my serotonin receptors over, and move on to non-drug means to manage depression.

 

....being off the drug this last year prompted me to go to counseling (again). I actually was able to FINALLY work through some things 3 decades old!!! I'm afraid Zoloft was helping suppress things and not allowing me to work and cope through things the proper way (grief, every day life, etc.)....

A lot of people say that antidepressants numb them out and keep them from working through real emotional issues. This is one of the arguments against antidepressants in mild to moderate depression.

 

....I'm hesitant to get on another antidepressant (even though I know it is a very real possibility that I have to be on one for the rest of my life) only to have it suppress things again. Anyone have any idea what I'm talking about and know of a drug that WON'T do that? I guess I know while I ask these questions, I truly know it is all a gamble.

We all know what you're talking about. We were all indoctrinated with the propaganda that depression is a neurohormonal imbalance that just gets worse without drugs, and we'll need lifelong medication.

 

Problem is, none of that is true:

 

- Depression is not a neurohormonal imbalance. Much of it is circumstantial, or based on an unhappy history.

 

- Depression is episodic, not chronic, and does not necessarily worsen with time. Prior to the antidepressant era, it was considered to have an excellent chance of recovery -- see Robert Whitaker's book Anatomy of an Epidemic; summary of The Natural Course of Depression here.

 

- Most episodes of depression resolves spontaneously. Whitaker cites 2006 Posternak et al. The naturalistic course of major depression in the absence of somatic therapy:

 

In an NIMH study of “untreated depression,” twenty-three percent of the non-medicated patients recovered in one month; 67% in six months; and 85% within a year....“If as many as 85% of depressed individuals who go without somatic treatments spontaneously recover within one year, it would be extremely difficult for any intervention to demonstrate a superior result to this,” the investigators wrote.

Antidepressants, by the way, have a remission rate at about 40%-50% -- leading to criticisms that they either do nothing (the patients would have gotten better anyway; they're no better than placebo) or make "depression" worse.

 

- There are absolutely no practice guidelines that advocate antidepressant treatment longer than 6 months after initial response. If followed, this means most patients would not be treated with antidepressants longer than about 7 months. (The non-responders shouldn't be treated with antidepressants at all.)

 

- That patients need to be on an antidepressant for life is folk wisdom passed around among doctors and most likely encouraged by the drug companies, which have made many billions of dollars on "maintenance" treatment.

 

- Since withdrawal symptoms are almost universally misdiagnosed by relapse, if your doctor says "we need to keep you on meds to avoid relapse, I've seen it many times" what she really means is "we need to keep you on meds to avoid withdrawal, I've seen it many times."

 

- There is an entire mental health discipline, psychotherapy, based on the assumption that people can learn and change and at least manage depression (or, as I prefer to call it, unhappiness). There are many studies that show psychotherapy is at least as effect as antidepressants and may be more effective in the long run.

 

- The psychiatry industry has indoctrinated us to be terrified of depression...errrr, unhappiness. This takes away our ability and self-confidence in managing our own lives and makes us dependent on them. Undermining the patient's self-confidence and autonomy is antithetical to fostering good mental health.

[SaveMooses]

OH MY GOSH, Alto.......... You give me hope! I will find and read these papers and keep researching. I SO appreciate your advice! I will just tell them they are watching my thyroid and stuff. Several people at work already know I take Raw Thyroid. It'll work! xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo! I just watched an old movie called Equilibrium. Reminded me what the pharm companies probably want. Or 1984........

[SaveMooses]

Feeling pretty tired and head-achy today Got up and went back down. Did some grocery shopping yesterday...probably did too much. Continuing to take 5mg Lexapro so still stabilizing. Trying to gain some energy and not panic.... going to go to Pagosa Springs, CO tomorrow and spend time with my boyfriend's family on Sunday. (They are from Dallas, and Pagosa is only 2 hours from here). I honestly don't know how I'm supposed to "fake it" and be all nice and cheerful. Don't get me wrong, they are all very wonderful friendly cheerful people. I am not. Going to claim migraines for my non-social behavior if I am feeling bad on Sunday. "sigh"

 

My poor boyfriend TRIES SO HARD to understand, but he just uses logic and doesn't know why it is so hard for me to even FATHOM getting out of my house is stressful, much less packing and getting thrown into a social situation. Feeling agoraphobic and wanna stay under the covers for a year. I hope I feel better tomorrow.... He promises that if we drive to Pagosa in the morning and go straight to the hotel and I don't want to get out, he is cool with that. Just thought it would be relaxing....I just panic more when I get out of my house. At least that's how it feels today. I guess we'll see!

 

What will really happen is I heard Pagosa is smokey from the Los Alamos, NM wild fires so we'll probably all have allergy/asthma attacks and voila! New turmoil.......

 

I hope everyone else is doing well!

[SaveMooses]

Okay, reporting what happened. Saturday morning I was freaking out not wanting to go to Pagosa. My wonderful, but OCD boyfriend kept harassing me that it will do me good. My poor grandmother that lives with us called and told on me to my mother. I ended up arguing with her for an hour about I'm just going to go to shut my boyfriend up and if Pagosa Springs burns, so be it! Forewarned! Ugh.... My boyfriend had a meltdown not understanding why I don't think he will help me get through whatever and doesn't understand why I don't trust him to remove me from the situation if I need to be removed. I'm like, "Duh, you're OCD, you use logic and you won't do it" which just hurt his feelings more. None of this is verbatim, just quick and dirty. Ultimately, my boyfriend suggested we quit crying on each other, he promised to take care of me no matter what, and so I went.

 

"sigh"

 

My boyfriend actually did what he promised and I didn't need to take any Valium or booze to get through it. I was still pretty tired and fatigued from this situation but did a lot better than I thought I would. Actually had a good time visiting in the beautiful mountains. There was no need to be removed from the situation and we made it back home in one piece last night. TIRED.... but better.

 

I am SO NERVOUS because tomorrow will be the first day back at work for me for 2 weeks since my "emotional breakdown" at work. We are going to have "a meeting" and per my boyfriend's suggestion, I'm going to take notes down now and take them with me to "the meeting". I'm still angry and disappointed at people who I thought were my friends, but I guess that is one of the things I should've know. You can't really make friends at work. I hate this planet and life sometimes. It's too bad it really is that way.

 

Still on my 5mg Lexapro stabilizing, armed with Valium for tomorrow......... we'll see! I hope everyone is having a great 4th of July weekend if you live in the US! Otherwise, I hope you're just having a good day!

[Altostrata]

Oh, such a good boyfriend!

 

Try not to worry about the "meeting." Imagine you're in a magic golden bubble, all inside the bubble is serenity.

 

That's what I've been told!

[SaveMooses]

OMG, Alto, those "imagine you're floating in peace" type stuff has NEVER worked on me. LOL! If I could do that, I would've just done that by now. I always forget to breathe, so when I remember, I hyperventilate. It's always SO lovely to be near me when I'm feeling like that. LOL!!

 

As you can tell, I am still feeling MUCH better with the 5 mg of evil Lexapro. I still am shocked that I almost took my own damn life because of withdrawals of Lexapro. My good boyfriend has made sure I don't have any access to our guns. I told him that I'm more of a danger to myself than some thug coming along and my needing to protect myself. Ridiculous!

 

Anyway, last Monday was my first day back to work after "The Incident" and I already took 5 mg of Valium because I was going to throw up in my car on the way because of being so nervous. My supervisor and the big boss (that sent me the wonderful email the week before) called me into the conference room and shut the doors. Okay...panic steps in....I'm getting all hyperventilating and teary-eyed. The big boss, Kevin, was being very nice, said "Let's get this over with so you don't dread it all day". They said they could offer 6 months of medical leave (unpaid) but guarantee my job back if I need the time. I told them I appreciated it, but said my doc and I are trying a new method of treatment that showed some immediate results, so I believe we are on the right track now. (I didn't mention my "doctor" was Alto). LOL! I did tell them we (my real doc) and I are watching my thyroid in particular and other hormones. I'm getting blood tests every two weeks (which isn't a lie). He was happy to know I was feeling better and suggested instead of my going full force back into work, just work half days for a while. Well, my all-or-nothing personality does not want to do that, so he suggested I just play it by ear.

 

I did get irritated in the meeting when Kevin said, "Well, we are going to give you one free pass on the "episode"." I said, "What does that mean?" He said, "Well, we can't have that stuff happening in the office, there was a lot of yelling and screaming". (He wasn't there that day.) I said, "You know, I don't want to appear ungrateful for what understanding I do have from you, but would you really tell an epileptic.....tsk tsk..... no more grand mal seizures! If I could have prevented it, of course it wouldn't have happened!" grrrrrrrr And he said he understood it was a medical condition just reiterated that they want to HELP, and be a crutch for me if needed to get through this.

 

 

This is WAY more than I ever expected. My immediate supervisor said NOTHING in the whole meeting and it was making me mad, too. I mean, she and I have shared EVERYTHING, hang out outside of work and isn't a 'traditional' supervisor. She's 10 years younger, swears a lot on the job, gives people a hard time for fun, we join forces! Now she's not speaking????

 

I went back to my office and the men in the office were all treating me as if nothing had changed. I think that's just because they are men and can compartmentalize things. So that was good. The two ladies (my supervisor and the receptionist that is 10 years older than me) simply weren't talking to me. I just started getting angry. Those are pretty much my moods these days. I am tired and weepy or if I have energy, I'm plotting violence. So I asked Kevin if I could at least come tell him my side of the story. He said his door was open anytime. So I told him that there was NO yelling and screaming or anything like that. My supervisor was irritated about something, got terse with me, and I cratered in my office. The end. Normally, I would've told her "*****, go take your Midol and shut up!" but I was already going downhill with no emergency brakes and didn't know what was about to happen. I told him, "I know they've had your ear for 2 weeks and I'm not saying it is her fault or anything, but I just wanted you to know that I didn't do ANYTHING to ANYONE and don't deserve their just ignoring me." He did say that was a completely different story than he heard and wanted me to understand that they will probably be cautious for a little while. To keep my chin up. I said, "Both of them?" and he said, "Now, I'm smarter than that". LOL! I promised to try to keep at least one up. ;-) That I didn't need him to "fix" anything, just wanted my side of the story told, the end. He was SO NICE. I guess I should tell you that this boss is normally unapproachable and doesn't want to be bothered with details, much less psycho employees. So I am just grateful for his help.

 

My supervisor came to my office around 3pm and asked if I wanted to go to the garage with her (to watch her smoke). I'm like, "Not really". She said she didn't have her key and I told her I would loan it to her. She said she also wanted to chat. I'm thinking "ga-RATE". By now I'm just ANGRY. She tried to explain she didn't know what to do, felt more inept than ever as a supervisor, blah blah blah. She was angry she really has no power at the company and didn't know what I was going to do. I'm like, "But you KNOW me......you KNOW I was going down hill and wasn't feeling well, why the hell would I throw you under a bus? I don't care that you were the trigger of that particular episode, ANYTHING could have done it, but it's bull **** that I am being ignored like I did something to you and the receptionist!" She said she simply didn't know what to do. I said, "Well, if I were in a car accident or had a grand mal seizure, you woulda sent me flowers. Where's my f***ing flowers?" We gave each other dirty looks and now feel almost back to normal. I was happy about being able to hash that out with her.

 

I made it through work Tuesday and Wednesday. I was getting very upset again that the receptionist (who I also considered a friend) was still not speaking to me. This is a small office so it's not like there isn't ample opportunity to see each other all the time. Thursday, I get really tired and weepy and went home at lunch. Kevin was completely cool with it - THANK GOD. Fridays are half days, so I figured I would make it again. I was still upset about the receptionist so I decided to take 5mg of Valium and get to work. Right when I'm in my purse opening my pill bottle, the receptionist comes in and says, "Any plans for the weekend?" and I nearly spill them everywhere!!! Scared me to death. So I try to play it cool (which I am SO bad at) and we chit chatted about stuff here and there. Just pretending everything is "normal".

 

Overall, I am SO GLAD this week is over with and SO GRATEFUL my job is being understanding. "Whew!" I see my counselor on Monday and my doctor on Tuesday. I'll let my doc know what I've been up to and see what she says. I probably won't listen to her, though. LOL!

 

I'm holding strong (and not about to stray for a while) on my 5mg of Lexapro. I'm SO THANKFUL I found you and your web site and just know, you did save my life through one of the worst episodes I've EVER had. xoxoxo!

[Altostrata]

SM, it's seems like you're going to be able to ride this one out.

 

About breathing -- taking up breathing meditation might be very helpful to you. Not only will it remind you to stay calm, it'll get that air into you so you don't throw your nervous system into panic mode with hyperventilation.

 

In other words, it will remove a trigger for your anxiety spells. Since you've already gotten a sample of how bad it can be in withdrawal, learning how to do this can literally save your life, or at least your *ss at work.

 

Truly, it's not hard. It does take a little bit of will power. If you can handle managing your Lexapro dosage, you can do this. It takes very little time, you can do it at work, and no one will know you're doing it.

 

So you're feeling up to working full time?

[SaveMooses]

Alto, I never thought about hyperventilating throwing my nervous system off. Just too much oxygen, faint, problem over with. LOL!

 

Well, I did work the full day (9 hours) on Tuesday and Wednesday, Thursday, I only worked 4 1/2 hours and left at lunch. Friday, I worked 4 1/2 hours and we only work half days on Fridays, so I was off the hook. Plus when I was able to get the girls talking to me again, I felt much better, too.

 

Next week, I'm going to try to work full time again. I now often wonder, you know, I am SO BLESSED to have an employer really try to help, friends that are really trying to understand, a boyfriend that didn't leave me even though I was calling him every name in the book and accusing him of everything, a family that tries to help. I know if any of these pieces of this puzzle fell out of place, I wouldn't feel like I could even try next week. How do people do it when their entire life is in disarray (not necessarily their fault or anything) and still find a reason to live. Whatever that characteristic or desire is, I am missing it in my DNA I think. I wasn't born wealthy or anything, just incredibly lucky to have what I have in spite of me. I guess that is my diagnosed depression talking. Pardon me, "unhappiness". I like that better. I guess I will go peruse the portion of this web site that you mentioned before about find a reason for living, for the suffering, for whatever.

 

Even though I have all of those wonderful people in my life, I felt SO ALONE because none of them understand.....actually understand what I was going through. It is you and this website that makes me know I'm not alone in the world. I really wish none of us had to go through this, but if we have to, may the psychos unite! xoxo!

[alexjuice]

Hi SaveMooses,

 

Hello. I'm sad to hear about all you've been through but also glad that you are coming to a better place.

 

The residents here are well informed, and you can count on them for good, conservative guidance.

 

I've been on this journey for a while and, for me, there have been some twists and turns. But I'm getting better and have come to believe the more I believe I am getting better, the better I get.

 

I also can't meditate. I used to be forced to meditate but would get so frustrated I would fake excuses to leave the room. As it turned out, it wasn't that I couldn't meditate but that I thought I couldn't. I have learned if I am willing to practice and keep with a new thing that I CAN learn to do it and benefit from it.

 

In the past when I *knew* a certain a thing wouldn't work for me, I'd just say "I can't do that, it doesn't work for me"... I don't say "I can't" anymore. I wasted a lot of time telling myself that I couldn't do things when in reality I just didn't know how to do them.

 

Glad to have you on the site.

 

By the way, my name is Alex.

 

Cheers!

[SaveMooses]

Hey Alex! Thank you very much. I will definitely try to take the "I can't" in my vocabulary. You are so right!

 

Love your profile picture. At this moment, my boyfriend and I are watching "McClintock". LOL! ~Helen is my name. I guess I never mentioned it before!

[Altostrata]

Don't worry about the meditating -- do the slow breathing part!!!!

[SaveMooses]

I will definitely try that, Alto. My mother gave my grandmother (about 2 years ago) a CD from Dr. Weil about breathing. I'll take a listen and see if I can get anything from it./*

[Altostrata]

I have that CD and found it quite relaxing.