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Robin Williams

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mammaP

I was at my very worst with depression while I was on meds, and withdrawal depression is every bit as debilitating 

if not worse! When I was depressed I took meds to feel better but instead got much, much worse! 

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Altostrata

I question these speculations assuming the only reason for suicide is mental illness. I feel it does a disservice to Robin Williams's memory to presume he made this choice because he was mentally ill and that he might have been saved by this or that intervention. These are our own fantasies of heroism we are projecting upon this person.

 

For example, he might have looked at the options presented to treat Parkinsonism -- a disease that would have taken away his expressiveness -- and decided, sadly but quite rationally, that he did not want to live through that.

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GiaK

I find all speculation problematic...including ones that happen to support our interests...that he was on SSRIs etc...

 

We don't know and I find it all disrespectful. 

 

and yes, to what Alto said too. 

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btdt

I too never had depression was drugged for pain ... I had depression PLUS a mixed bag of other psych dx AFTER taking prozac and other ads... 

 

I guess we will find out the truth when the toxicology reports are out in a few wks.  

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btdt

I thought about posting my thoughts on this but it is hard to follow that last post and not seem callous and disrespectful.  I have posted a link above stating how drug induced  parkinsonism is misdiagnosed as parkinsons...how I had these type of symptoms after all those years on antidepressants just before I quit. 

 

Not to be too speculative here or callous I wish this fact to be more widely know so if any people you love get these symptoms and are taking drugs I wish you to know there is a chance it could be reversed by stopping the drug. 

Just saying it again in case anyone missed it.

 

It is not just on this site that people are speculating it is happening all over the web on every site I have been to and not just withdrawal or drug related sites either it is on every site. I don't think people are meaning to seem callous or disrespectful he was a well loved public figure.  People want to know what happened to him and they want to know what drugs he was taking legal or illegal.  As a celebrity I think it is to be expected I guess as it is everywhere.  I did notice the rise in public health messages to get treatment for all who are depressed more of that as I expected but a lot more not buying it then I expected too.  I guess either withdrawal people are very vocal or the truth is becoming known.  Being what many of us here see as the truth. 

 

peace all

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Lilu

I question these speculations assuming the only reason for suicide is mental illness. I feel it does a disservice to Robin Williams's memory to presume he made this choice because he was mentally ill and that he might have been saved by this or that intervention. These are our own fantasies of heroism we are projecting upon this person.

 

For example, he might have looked at the options presented to treat Parkinsonism -- a disease that would have taken away his expressiveness -- and decided, sadly but quite rationally, that he did not want to live through that.

 

If the decision to kill himself was rational and premeditated, I believe that Robin Williams would have left a note explaining his actions, and expressing his love to his children and wife.  He did not.  In discussing this with my shrink, she pointed out that most suicides are impulsive not premeditated, done in a moment of despair.  She also said that killing one self by hanging is quite unusual and very rare. It is quite brutal and painful. To me, it suggests that a person felt very guilty and wanted to punish themselves.

 

That said, I do think it is important to be objective.  I wouldn't blame antidepressants as the sole reason for his depression and suicide.  One of the things that was mentioned by many doctors in the news, is that 40% of patients who undergo open heart surgery, develop severe depression.  This comes as quite a surprise to me, as I had never heard of this before. And I've seen quite a few medical shows.  Makes me wonder if the medical community hides this fact on purpose.

 

Also, as some pointed out above, the Parkinsons symptoms could have been caused by one or more drugs that Williams was taking.  If he did not have Parkinsons but was being treated with L-dopa, this might have made his depression worse or caused a psychotic break.   Drugs that are dopamine agonists can cause tremors as well as psychotic episodes in those with bipolar disorder.  It is very likely that Robin Williams was bipolar, given his highly manic demeanor.

 

This is why supplements such as SAMe, which raise norepinephrine and dopamine levels, are contraindicated in bipolar disorder.  Reglan, a promotility drug often prescribed for acid reflux, is actually a dopamine agonist, and does in fact cause parkinsons-like symptoms known as tardive-diskinesia.  Reglan, which is chemically related to antipsychotics, can in fact induce depression, paranoia, agarophobia, and other psychotic symptoms.

 

Bottom line is that there are probably a number of influencing factors that led this wonderful beloved actor to take his own life.  However, as many expressed above, I am a 99% sure that psychotropics drugs that Williams was taking were a major contributing factor.

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Lilu

I did notice the rise in public health messages to get treatment for all who are depressed more of that as I expected but a lot more not buying it then I expected too.  I guess either withdrawal people are very vocal or the truth is becoming known.  Being what many of us here see as the truth. 

 

Yes I noticed this as well

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Lilu

I find all speculation problematic...including ones that happen to support our interests...that he was on SSRIs etc...

 

We don't know and I find it all disrespectful. 

 

and yes, to what Alto said too. 

I don't think it's disrespectful at all.  It's the only good thing that can be attributed to Williams' death - the fact that mainstream sources are all talking about depression and mental illness.  Anything that happens that increases awareness and open discussion that reduces stigma associated with mental illness IS a good thing.

Robin Williams always publicly talked about his addiction to alcohol and drugs, rehab, heart surgery, etc.  I'm sure he's looking down from heaven saying, "Crap, I wish I wouldn't have done that, that was a lousy way to go. But at least my death is bringing light and ecouraging constructive discussion about the multiple issues that so many people are struggling with."

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compsports

As one who probably did too much speculating initially, I can understand Alto and GiaK's concern.   The problem is if we cry wolf every time out before the facts are out to support our case, we're not going to be taken seriously.

 

And speaking of speculating:), his wife has said he exercised to combat his depression.   So that makes me now wonder if he was even using meds.  Of course, we will never know and I am just saddened that he is dead like everyone else.

 

CS

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cymbaltawithdrawal5600

I can find no definitive source yet that confirms he was on AD's. Marlon Wayons was just speculating. Alto's take seems close enough to be believable. The most recent source is quoted as saying that as recent as the day before, he was engaged in talking about several projects, hardly the action of a person who was building up resolve to end everything. We will never know and it just seems a bit odd to me that with what we all here think we know about the destructive effects of these drugs, that we assume he just had to be taking them.

 

No matter how you think about it, it just hurts.

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Altostrata

We cannot know exactly why anyone takes his or her own life, even if a note is left. The existence or non-existence of a note means nothing. Words may be inadequate.

 

Any construction of ours about motive is a fantasy about the person.

 

Interesting point about drug-induced Parkinsonism, btdt.

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UnfoldingSky

I actually meant no disrespect at all, I really liked him.  People can't really know what our reasons are for posting or what we read prior to posting, I had read he was in treatment for depression.   I hadn't said a word about this until I read that.  I was well aware he might not have died of a drug but I'm also aware in treatment for depression too often means drugs.  My reasons for posting are that the mainstream almost immediately used his situation to say we need more treatment, and I know that can lead to suicide as it happened to the loved one of someone I know (and the drug was eventually ruled the cause, just to be clear here).  Also, though as btdt has aptly pointed out, ADs can cause Parkinson's symptoms (which as far as I have read do eventually clear up if the drug is removed in a safe fashion) which can be very hard to distinguish from true Parkinson's, so what the mainstream is pushing for here is way off the mark.  I really doubt that people here had anything less than good intentions behind their posts, I very much doubt anyone here stands to make money off his death like psychiatry does, or that they have whole political agendas mapped out that they are pushing using his death as a pretext. No doubt people are concerned that others could be harmed from drugs based on this situation.  Or that was my concern anyway. 

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UnfoldingSky

Also, my post wasn't in response to your last post Alto, I didn't see your post before I wrote.

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UnfoldingSky

I question these speculations assuming the only reason for suicide is mental illness. I feel it does a disservice to Robin Williams's memory to presume he made this choice because he was mentally ill and that he might have been saved by this or that intervention. These are our own fantasies of heroism we are projecting upon this person.

 

For example, he might have looked at the options presented to treat Parkinsonism -- a disease that would have taken away his expressiveness -- and decided, sadly but quite rationally, that he did not want to live through that.

 

As far as I can recall, historically it was not the case that people who took their lives for certain reasons were automatically said to be "mentally ill".  Copy cat suicides, suicides with political motivations and suicides where people had chronic or fatal physical illnesses were not automatically assumed to be due to "mental illness" until fairly recently.  That they now seem to be likely has to do with the drug industry's continual need to widen the diagnoses to make more money.

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GiaK

one can have this conversation about suicide and also not speculate about one private citizen...I agree it's great that a conversation is happening...we can talk about all the myriad sorts of things involved in the politics of suicide without pretending we know something about a man we've never met... that's my only point. 

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GiaK

I wasn't suggesting anyone was being intentionally disrespectful either...the media is going nuts and everyone takes off and runs with it...but it all smacks of something like gossip to me when we start making assumptions about the very personal nature of any one persons life...

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UnfoldingSky

Thanks for the clarification Gia...  I know it does seem like gossip but I really don't think in a lot of cases (even some of the cases where people are pushing the usual misinfo of psychiatry) that a lot of people are meaning it as gossip.  I think a lot of people feel his loss rather deeply and they are just trying to make sense of why it happened.  I also honestly truly do know though that we can't really know what went on. 

 

Maybe it would be better if we had two threads for this, one in memory of him and one a more general discussion of suicide not explicitly about him.

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UnfoldingSky

Also, just to be clear, in my post above with the Alex Jones video, I'm not endorsing anything he mentions for depression either, or for withdrawal or other things (like that fluoride protection stuff he's pushing.)

 

Please do not try to treat depression with what he mentioned if you are on a drug, as it can be dangerous, and also no one knows what these things do for withdrawal.  And please note if you have depression that occurred after a drug was taken it might be a drug-induced condition that may not respond to what he mentioned.

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UnfoldingSky

Who knew? (I didn't.) Comedian Rob Schneider is an outspoken critic of big pharma and speculates (for yes, that's all it can be at this point) on the connection between Robin's death and parkinson meds.

 

He is probably aware of drug issues because of what happened to Phil Hartman.  It was reported a while after it happened that his family pursued the drug manufacturer they felt was responsible for the tragedy, and I *think* they did get some kind of compensation.

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Barbarannamated

One of my first thoughts when I heard about his suicide is that it likely brought out a sense of vulnerability in everyone (not just the forum). If someone who seemed to have it all and appeared happy and full of humor could be pushed to the extreme, then maybe anyone could...

 

Hope that makes sense. Bad day.

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cymbaltawithdrawal5600

All of the media snippets of the past days, all in one article, more like the scenario we see played out in this forum all too often (except for the Parkinson's). But still only speculation....... and some of the info is contradicted in other accounts (such as the c/o 'insomnia' vs. 'sleeping 20 hrs a day and still feeling tired' from a recent source).

 

This is via SSRIstories via the Daily Mail.

 

 

A close friend of Robin Williams has blamed the drugs the comedian was taking to combat Parkinson’s disease for his suicide.

Actor Rob Schneider tweeted: ‘Now that we can talk about it #Robin Williams was on a drug treating the symptoms of Parkinson’s. One of the side effects is suicide.’

Schneider, 50, met Williams more than two decades ago when they appeared on the US TV show, Saturday Night Live. They remained close friends and often performed together in stand-up comedy clubs.

Williams’s spokeswoman declined to comment when asked by The Mail on Sunday about rumours that the tragic comic’s family blames the medication he was on for ‘pushing him over the edge’.

A source said: ‘Robin had recently left rehab. He was on medication for anxiety and depression and had also started taking drugs to combat the early onset of Parkinson’s.

‘Many of these drugs list suicidal thoughts as a possible side effect. A lot of Robin’s friends are convinced that the cocktail of prescription pills he was on somehow contributed to his mental state deteriorating as quickly as it did.

‘Robin had always suffered from depression and addiction but the diagnosis and treatment of his Parkinson’s was new, as was the combination of drugs he was on.’ (I haven't seen a source yet that said he was addicted to any other drug except cocaine in the past, but I am not a celebrity watcher.)

Williams, 63, was last photographed at an art show near his home in Tiburon, northern California, last Saturday night. He appeared frail and thin.

He took his life last Sunday as his third wife Susan Schneider (who is not related to Rob Schneider) slept in the next room. The pair are thought to have been sleeping in separate rooms because Williams was suffering from insomnia brought on by the drugs he was taking.

Williams’s body was found on Monday morning by his personal assistant. Results of toxicology tests are expected to take six weeks.

Experts say Parkinson’s disease can make symptoms of depression worse.  America’s National Institute of Mental Health says on its website that people struggling with depression and Parkinson’s ‘suffer higher levels of anxiety and more problems with concentration’ than those suffering from only one of the ailments.

Dr Jeff Bronstein, neurologist specialising in Parkinson’s, said: ‘Obviously getting the diagnosis can make people depressed but we also know there is a much higher incidence of depression even before the disease is recognised. We think it’s one of the early symptoms.’

 

 

There is nothing here for us to feel good about. I don't think anything will be done to lessen AD use for depression no matter how high profile the case. What do the suicide hotlines counsel when someone calls them? What to the docs do when you tell them how you feel? My guess is they suggest drugs. How could they not? It is accepted medical practice.

 

It is only through first hand experience that I found out the drugs just didn't work. Most people won't ever get to that point or get there too late.

 

The only defense we have against suicide is to just say no, no matter what. And for a lot of us, to say no to the drugs too, no matter what.

 

Unfolding Sky, nothing of what you spoke came off as disrespectful. We need to talk about this, all of us. Until we get it talked out.

 

Who knows what tomorrow may bring? I sure don't.

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UnfoldingSky

One of my first thoughts when I heard about his suicide is that it likely brought out a sense of vulnerability in everyone (not just the forum). If someone who seemed to have it all and appeared happy and full of humor could be pushed to the extreme, then maybe anyone could...

 

Hope that makes sense. Bad day.

 

Makes perfect sense and I agree, it must have hit many people really hard. 

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Lilu

One of my first thoughts when I heard about his suicide is that it likely brought out a sense of vulnerability in everyone (not just the forum). If someone who seemed to have it all and appeared happy and full of humor could be pushed to the extreme, then maybe anyone could...

 

Hope that makes sense. Bad day.

Well said, Barb.

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Lilu

All of the media snippets of the past days, all in one article, more like the scenario we see played out in this forum all too often (except for the Parkinson's). But still only speculation....... and some of the info is contradicted in other accounts (such as the c/o 'insomnia' vs. 'sleeping 20 hrs a day and still feeling tired' from a recent source).

 

This is via SSRIstories via the Daily Mail.

 

 

A close friend of Robin Williams has blamed the drugs the comedian was taking to combat Parkinson’s disease for his suicide.

Actor Rob Schneider tweeted: ‘Now that we can talk about it #Robin Williams was on a drug treating the symptoms of Parkinson’s. One of the side effects is suicide.’

Schneider, 50, met Williams more than two decades ago when they appeared on the US TV show, Saturday Night Live. They remained close friends and often performed together in stand-up comedy clubs.

Williams’s spokeswoman declined to comment when asked by The Mail on Sunday about rumours that the tragic comic’s family blames the medication he was on for ‘pushing him over the edge’.

A source said: ‘Robin had recently left rehab. He was on medication for anxiety and depression and had also started taking drugs to combat the early onset of Parkinson’s.

‘Many of these drugs list suicidal thoughts as a possible side effect. A lot of Robin’s friends are convinced that the cocktail of prescription pills he was on somehow contributed to his mental state deteriorating as quickly as it did.

‘Robin had always suffered from depression and addiction but the diagnosis and treatment of his Parkinson’s was new, as was the combination of drugs he was on.’ (I haven't seen a source yet that said he was addicted to any other drug except cocaine in the past, but I am not a celebrity watcher.)

Williams, 63, was last photographed at an art show near his home in Tiburon, northern California, last Saturday night. He appeared frail and thin.

He took his life last Sunday as his third wife Susan Schneider (who is not related to Rob Schneider) slept in the next room. The pair are thought to have been sleeping in separate rooms because Williams was suffering from insomnia brought on by the drugs he was taking.

Williams’s body was found on Monday morning by his personal assistant. Results of toxicology tests are expected to take six weeks.

Experts say Parkinson’s disease can make symptoms of depression worse.  America’s National Institute of Mental Health says on its website that people struggling with depression and Parkinson’s ‘suffer higher levels of anxiety and more problems with concentration’ than those suffering from only one of the ailments.

Dr Jeff Bronstein, neurologist specialising in Parkinson’s, said: ‘Obviously getting the diagnosis can make people depressed but we also know there is a much higher incidence of depression even before the disease is recognised. We think it’s one of the early symptoms.’

 

 

There is nothing here for us to feel good about. I don't think anything will be done to lessen AD use for depression no matter how high profile the case. What do the suicide hotlines counsel when someone calls them? What to the docs do when you tell them how you feel? My guess is they suggest drugs. How could they not? It is accepted medical practice.

 

It is only through first hand experience that I found out the drugs just didn't work. Most people won't ever get to that point or get there too late.

 

The only defense we have against suicide is to just say no, no matter what. And for a lot of us, to say no to the drugs too, no matter what.

 

Unfolding Sky, nothing of what you spoke came off as disrespectful. We need to talk about this, all of us. Until we get it talked out.

 

Who knows what tomorrow may bring? I sure don't.

 

Excellent post, excellent summary. Thank you.  

 

I already knew that Robbins was taking antidepressants and anti-anxiety pills from watching a lot of the news shows and hearing his best friend talk about it.  So for a lot of us posting here, we weren't speculating, we knew.  Of course, even after the toxicology results are revealed, it will still be impossible to pin-point as to which drug or combination of drugs in conjunction with other biological factors that led to the decision.  

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Lilu

There is a movie that Robin Williams starred in that is all about death and suicide, but with a very uplifting beautiful spiritual message.  If you are into metaphysics and eastern mysticism you will love this movie.  It's called

What Dreams May Come

Trailer:  

Synopsis
Based on a metaphysical 1978 novel by science fiction and horror author Richard Matheson, this romantic fantasy-drama won an Oscar for its expensive and impressive visual vistas depicting an imaginative afterlife. Robin Williams stars as Chris Nielsen, a doctor who has suffered with his artist wife Annie (Annabella Sciorra) through the devastating loss of their children, Marie and Ian, who were killed in a car accident. Although Annie's all-consuming depression nearly destroyed their marriage, the couple rebuilt their relationship and are now living out a comfortable middle age. Stopping one night to help a motorist in a wreck, Chris is struck by a car and killed. At first confused about where he is, Chris meets Albert (Cuba Gooding Jr.), a spiritual guide who helps him to realize he's passed away and that he must move on to the next world. After trying with only limited success to communicate with the devastated Annie, Chris moves on and discovers an afterlife that can become whatever one envisions, where even his pet dog awaits him. What Chris envisions as paradise are the paintings of his wife, and he happily takes up residence there, awaiting the far-off day when Annie will eventually join him. He also meets his children, although they have chosen different appearances than the ones they had in life. Then tragedy strikes when Annie, inconsolable, commits suicide and goes to Hell. Although it is rarely done, Chris insists on traveling there, risking his eternal soul to save the woman he loves. Accompanied part of the way by Albert and a wizened guide called The Tracker (Max von Sydow), Chris finally reaches Annie in Hell, and must convince her of the truth in order to release her from her dark prison. ~ Karl Williams, Rovi

http://www.fandango.com/whatdreamsmaycome_30197/plotsummary

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Muddles

A friend has just informed me that one of her customers has been told that he will have to stop his Parkinson's medication in a week as it has been recalled.

 

Not sure which one it is, or if it has anything to do with this.

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Petunia

A beautiful musical tribute to Robin Williams..... Seize the Day by Melody Sheep

 

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Rhiannon

I got busy and didn't follow this thread, but now at this late date checking back in, I want to say that the reason I am so sure Williams was on multiple psych meds is because I used to do medical transcription and a couple of times I worked rehab center accounts. So I transcribed the reports of the psychiatric caregivers (who are part of the team for everyone) in the rehab centers. Everyone was put on meds. That's what they do. It's considered good medical care and good practice.

 

I doubt the best, most expensive rehab centers are going to settle for less than the "best" medical care.

 

I'm so sorry for his loss. I'm not gossiping or speculating about his personal life, I'm grieving him. And I'm angry, very angry, because he didn't have to die that way. If someone finds that offensive, then understand that it is not my intention to offend, but this is something I won't shut up about. Psychiatric drugs kill people, real people, loved people.

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compsports

Interesting perspective by a sleep doctor/ENT.   I don't agree with it but I thought you all would be interested in a different point of view.

 

http://doctorstevenpark.com/chicken-or-the-egg-depression-or-sleep-apnea

 

On a different note, I have been watching a video of one of his performances in 2008 in Washington DC.  I have never laughed so hard as I have been doing.   Then I start feeling so sad that we will never have this experience again except when we view old tapes.  I then feel sad that Mr. Williams was hurting so much that he felt suicide was the only option.

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Altostrata

We have all been deeply affected by the loss of Robin Williams. I didn't know him personally, but I feel like I've lost a friend.

The psychiatrists who have written about Robin Williams's death are grieving in their own way, I suppose. It must be the emotional burden of grief that leads to constructions like these, where the doctor consoles his own profession as having the power to heal such cases.

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-everyone-became-depressed/201408/the-suicide-robin-williams/

 

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2014/robin-williams.shtml

 

http://1boringoldman.com/index.php/2014/08/15/rarely-if-ever-available/

These articles invariably start with the unfounded assumption that Robin Williams was suffering from a grave mental disorder precipitating his suicide.

The suicide itself is taken as evidence of mental disorder, although people may kill themselves for many different reasons, some of which arguably are not mental disorders. For example: Intractable suffering from a physical illness such as Parkinson's. Or, perhaps, terrible insomnia from a drug your doctors insist you need to take.

(Or is the presumption now that suicide is post hoc evidence of mental illness, the deceased no longer being able to defend his reputation?)

Alternate explanations are ignored in order to provide an object lesson about the efficacy of psychiatric treatment -- although if, in fact, Robin Williams was under psychiatric care, and the object of that care was to prevent suicide, it demonstrably failed.

But let us keep in the forefronts of our minds the grief of the so-far unknown but heroic psychiatrist who might have been treating Robin Williams! Let us not suggest that whatever psychiatric drug cocktail he may have been on may have been ineffective -- or may even have caused his symptoms of Parkinson's (see http://www.todaysgeriatricmedicine.com/archive/082510p24.shtml).

Drug-induced Parkinson's is frequently misdiagnosed, does not respond to anti-Parkinson's drugs, and is treated by tapering off the offending drugs. Oh, and it's medical error, not medical heroism.

Or, as Robin Williams's good friends think, it wasn't a mental disorder at all but the adverse effects of the Parkinson's medication, which caused grueling insomnia, that motivated his desperate solution.

At this point, given what we know, a tragic cascade of iatrogenic injury is as plausible any other explanation of why Robin Williams chose to take his life.

A cautionary tale of awareness of adverse effects of psychiatric drugs and Parkinson's drugs would be as valuable to the general public as yet another hopeful claim about psychiatry's power over suicide. Yet, psychiatrists will grieve in their own way: "I might have been able to save that person."
 

 

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mammaP

One said that he would still be alive if he had been taken to hospital for his own safety

and given ECT.   :(   When will they learn?

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compsports

Way to battle Alto on the Boring Old Man Thread.   Great point about it being ok for psychiatrists to speculate about RW's mental illness causing the suicide even though there isn't any proof but if non medical peons speculate, they are totally out of line.

 

And suggesting that ECT would have been good for him?  Yeah, that would have motivated him to stay alive to fight Parkinson's :rolleyes:

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