success myndfull: Prozac to Paxil to Wellbutrin and Prozac to Celexa

[myndfull]

Update:  I've dropped very small amounts in the last few weeks. I've updated my sig with that info. Each weekly drop has been about 2.5% of the last drop. I'm going to continue to do this a couple more weeks and then hold for a couple weeks before doing it again. As I write I'm down to 0.32 mL celexa.

 

As a result of my lower drops, my psych symptoms have been less than usual. I'm very grateful for that. But my physical symptoms, at least some of them, have increased. My insomnia can be bad--that is, falling asleep is slow, and when I wake in the middle of the night, say 3ish, I find it very hard if not impossible to settle down and fall back to sleep (more on my sleep issues below). My anxiety rises, my whole body tenses, and I feel pin-prickly pains in my muscles. My back flares and I wake up in pain. When things get really bad, I sit up in bed and try to meditate. But I can't meditate; my anxiety is in the driver's seat and it's taking me for a wild ride--in the middle of the night. When my back is too painful after a bad night's sleep, I can't motivate myself to exercise. My IBS symptoms ramp up. I get headaches in the early afternoons. Prostate seems irritated. Diarrhea is every other day. My sinuses seem to become extra sensitive and that issue seems to be related to my headaches. I have had a couple afternoons of mild depression, if not anhedonia (I'm still a bit unsure of the difference between the two).

 

My body just does not seem to want to work properly. Otherwise, I'm in good health! That is to say, if it weren't for these withdrawal symptoms I'd be a pretty healthy 60 year old.

 

About sleep: I've just read a book called Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker. If anyone's interested in my notes/quotes from the book, let me know and I'll post them here. I've learned some things that I should have known years and years ago. About sleep. About how important it is to our mental and emotional life. Of course, I've always known this. We all do probably. But reading something like that when you really need to know it can be a powerful learning experience. I plan to do things differently when it comes to sleep. For example, no more reading in bed with an LED back-lit device. Less and less light in general in the evenings.  I've already cut out most of my caffeine.

 

In part because of my reading of Walker's book, I bought a sleep tracker, an Emfit QS (look it up). It was expensive ($268) and I normally would have said, "No way am I spending that much on something I'm not sure will work!" But I splurged--that is, I was desperate. I bought one. I've used it the last three nights and I'm happy to say that my sleep is not actually all that bad. (I might have something called paradoxical insomnia; that is, I'm probably getting more sleep than I've always thought I am.) The Emfit has already shown me that I'm not getting enough REM sleep, nor deep NREM. The machine is giving me enough bio-feedback to let me know what changes I'm making (when I go to bed, how much light I allow in the house/bedroom at night, why it's important not to use any LED backlit [laptop or iPhone] light into my skull after 6:00 p.m. -- etc.) and how those changes might improve my overall sleep. I'm looking forward to using it further.

[Dee80]

Hi Myndfull, I've been reading your thread and can identify with so much of your story. You have done so fantastically to get to where you are. After reading about your weekly 2.5% drop, I think I will try this for my next drop once/if I have stabilised for a bit. It's great to see that your psych symptoms have lessened somewhat. 

[myndfull]

Hi, Dee. If you do try the smaller, more frequent drops let us know how it's going. 

 

Wishing you well.

[myndfull]

Update: Have continued and will continue to drop 0.01 mL per week. These smaller drops will get bigger and bigger percentage-wise, so I may make them smaller as time goes by. As mentioned in my last update, since I have begun to drop weekly at about 2.5%, I've had fewer emotional side effects. I still don't feel 100% myself; I'm a little down/low in motivation, and my confidence does fall off. But my moods don't rise to the level of anhedonia or DP/DR.

 

And I have more frequent windows and they last for longer. When I'm feeling myself/having a window my confidence goes way up. In that mood, the last thing I want to do is avoid things or people. I want to be as busy as I always have been. A day or so ago I actually felt wholly myself. It was a bit odd because one of the thoughts that came to me then was "What the hell are you doing retired?"  I wasn't getting nostalgic for my old job--high school teaching. I know I've left that behind; I certainly don't want to do that work again. But I could see the great many skills I have as an asset--and I wanted to put them to use. I started looking into some possible part-time work-for-pay opportunities. Who knows! 

 

I continue to have problems sleeping, and with anxiety in general. But there seems to be a limit to both. When I'm feeling bad I can find my "center." I couldn't do that before; I would have to be in a window. Lately when the tears come, as they always do when withdrawal symptoms are doing their business on me, I can quickly stifle them. I can more quickly objectify them as neuro-emotions. My emotional "ceiling" is lower, closer to my norm. I can rationalize bad moments/thoughts away. 

 

When I was having a window, I thought to myself, "I'm happy to feel myself again. But this isn't going to last. I should write down--describe--who I am so that I can use what I've written when I'm in a wave to remind me of who I am."   One way to describe this center would be to complete the following sentence: "I know I'm having a window when..." I'm feeling good or decent in mind and body. My physical discomforts are minimal. I read with absorbtion and pleasure. I have positive and negative thoughts, but none are repetitive or terribly angry. I feel irritation but never rage. I plan for the future and look forward to spending time with people. I am much more willing to engage with others, or with the world at large; "stuff" interest me. I'm as much extroverted as I am introverted.  Music sounds good. The future has potential. I treat myself and my body with kindness. I'm kind to others.

 

[AmyK]

Good idea about writing this down. And beautiful written about who the real you are,  "the center" of you. It inspired me to do something similar. I have written some sentences here and there, but not a such a well put "statement" like yours. Important! 

 

All the best, 

Amy

[myndfull]

Quick update: Hit a wall on Friday. Been feeling too good, at least mentally, so I've been dropping each week without a hold. Now, I seem to have the "Paxil flu."  These drugs always have a surprise left hook, don't they? The symptoms keep changing. They lull you into a sence of security, them "bam!" Right in the kisser. This "flu" is scary! I'm' down to 0.29mL Celexa. Will hold for a while.

 

I won't belabour this post with a description of how I'm feeling; search "flu-like" on the site and you'll get quite a lot of info.

 

Problem is I have a fluctuating fever (so far no higher than 100.6), and I've read that the Paxil flu doesn't include that. 

 

Anyone had the "flu" with a fever?

[myndfull]

My flu-like symptoms have abated and last night I slept very well. My symptoms? Constipation, fever, irritable bowel, headache, muscle aches (particularly in the abdomen), prickly sensations in the arms and face, night sweats, excessive ringing in the left ear (I've had tinnitus for years, but this was worse than usual), insomnia, anxiety. And some others. There are always others. 

 

I've reached the other side of Hell and reached another redoubt. I'm holding at 0.29mL Celexa for a week, then continuing on. From here I can see the ways out; they're not too far distant. I can even see blue sky above the enemy's ramparts. While I make my incremental way to freedom I've sloughed off my mental baggage and my lightness is invigorating; I have urges to break into a run. But when I actually do I reveal my power to the enemy. They become emboldened and they try to stop me. The stronger I push against the enemy--the faster I go--the stronger the enemy becomes. So, I back off and use my power words: Patience and Time, my sword and shield. When I use them the enemy can't see me coming. Slow, purposeful movements allow me, ultimately, to slip out of their grasp and into the sunshine.

 

(If anyone's reading this I hope you have an appreciation of metaphor, particularly allegory.)

 

Camus, a friend to us all, said something that relates: “In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer.”

[myndfull]

I've decamped from the redoubt and begun my crawl again. For two weeks I held at 0.29mL; now I'm down to 0.28. Slow and painful progress. Frequent headaches. Mild depression. Windows and waves of shorter duration. WD/normal in decline while I edge upward of this pit. 

Right now I'm taking a moment to survey my progress; I'm on my back, elbows dug into the soot. Hell is like a crater; it goes deep. From here I can see that the impact that created this pit was powerful: I can't see the bottom: it's black like a winter midnight and shrouded in mist. Fortunately, its center--where I started--is now a long way off. 

 

From my vantage, on the steep sides of the pit, I watch the miasma swirling up out of the depths. That oily mist once veiled everything. Now I see the top of it and feel its gravitational pull; it circles the center of the pit and would pull me back in if I let it. While the miasma swirls I get a whiff of it; it doesn't smell of anything much, but it numbs, fogs my vision, darkens my thoughts. My anxiety rises. 

 

Back in the old days, pre-SSRI, when I smelled pine tar (just for instance) I would feel again the pleasure of a lazy hot summer day in the Sierra; when I smelled a rose blossom I'd feel...I don't know...kindness; when I inhaled the caramel bubbles of a Coke or a Pepsi I'd hear the crack of a baseball bat or taste the char on a hot dog at a spring picnic. 

 

When I was living within that fog down below, I'd smell something I once knew but couldn't connect the smell to a memory, and if I could--like the odor of cherry blossoms--the smell meant nothing. Nothing. I was sensing the world down there in that pit, but not feeling it. And I knew that if I could sense something, good or bad, then I should feel something, too. The smells out of Hell aren't really smells at all: they're fried memories.

Sight, too, was hard from within that muck. When I started my taper it was hard to see a summer sky for what it was -- or a winter storm for that matter. Both brought goose pimples of pleasure in my earlier days. Since entering this pit I see only shades of grey, sometimes only a bitter blackness. Bitter partly because I know it was me who helped to create this Hell. 

 

Bitter can be displaced with sweet, so I turn in the mire and on my stomach I start my crawl upward.

 

Now I'm feeling again. The summer sun on a cold autumn morning. I sat soaking in that sun yesterday in the backyard wearing a parka over a woolen sweater; pants, too -- and shoes, etc. :). I heard a bird's song that I'd never heard before and identified it on my iPhone--a gilded flicker. It lives in the Sonoran desert normally, but it seems to be venturing north into Northern California. I've read that a lot of bird species are confused by climate change. I'm confused by it too. I began making plans to visit to visit Southern Arizona, where I used to go bird watching. When you're deep in the muck and mire of the pit, you don't often make plans.

 

When I'm on my belly inching forward, the day by day, up the sides of my pit, I can see the salient edge of Hell's crater, but I can see nothing of what's on the other side. If I ever get to that edge I'll let you know what I see.

[myndfull]

Update: Today is one of those doubting days. I'm doubting that when I'm off the drug I'm going to feel better. It's a darkish mood. Anxious. Anhedonic.

 

So I'm on SA.org seeking hope.

 

I've been cleaning the house, drinking herbal tea, watching basketball (Houston vs. Boston). Riding out the....well, it's not a storm. More a muddy patch. A tough slog. Not fighting it. I know by now that I'll reach firmer ground sooner if I just take it slow and steady.

 

Currently holding at 0.25mL--very low. It's a wonder to me the drug still has a tug on my emotions. It's effects/affects are less--much less--but still there, hanging by a thread. Progress.

 

I'm looking forward to a happier new year than the last four. It's in 2018 that I take my final dose of Celexa (Spring or early Summer). From then I'll continue to heal and the doubts I have about my future well-being will continue to slowly fade.

 

May all of you have a Happy New Year, too!

[Downbutnotout]

Happy New Year. I feel like I”m the only one on here who just got taken off my drugs abruptly I’m only on 50 mg of trazadone and starting an updose of 5 beads of effexor. I got off the effexor in 3 weeks (75 mg) by my psychiatrist using the prozac bridge. I am having a  tough time, and am looking for hope too. You can revel in the fact that you’re doing things the right way. And sort of know the ropes. I am not sure this reinstatement is going to work. I was off of it for at least 6 weeks. I am doing 5 beads right now, and 50 mg of trazadone which I don’t think really has a good effect on me. It sounds like you’re at the end. So, at least your brain has had a chance to get it together. You’re lucky you live in California and can use those substances. 

[myndfull]

Down — Your updose or reinstatement is probably a good idea. From there it’s a slow and steady taper.

 

It’ll take time, but things will stabilize and you’ll feel better. With subtle adjustments over the course of your taper, and the acceptance that the taper will need a few years and not months to complete, you will achieve success.

 

I wish you well.

 

Myndfull

[AmyK]

Myndfull, happy new year to you! This is the year when you finally will quit, exciting year. Doubts are very common in this slow process. It feels like there is no end to suffering in wd. But I believe there is. I see many improvements for my self in the post-zero life. They will come for you too. 

I wish you all the best!

Amy

[kesh]

Loving your account of everything Myndfull. Happy new year and all the best.

[myndfull]

Thank you Amy and Kesh. I'm actually looking forward to the new year. I've looked at my journal from January of this year and I know I wasn't feeling so optimistic then.

 

So, progress, slow and steady, continues apace.

[myndfull]

Short update:  Down to 0.22mL. Holding there for a second week as of yesterday. Feeling depression more strongly today than in the recent past. The physical symptoms are still the same, though not as severe: headache, diarrhea, muscle ache, sinus sensitivity, acute tinnitus, insomnia, etc. These symptoms are getting to be less of a problem.

 

My  days are predictable: I feel okay in the morning, but by about 9 to 10 a.m. I start feeling--to varying degree--depressed (mind fog might be a better way to identify it). I don't think of my symptoms as waves and windows anymore since the two blend together so frequently now that in a day I can have waves (plural) and windows (plural).  Healing is very, very slow. But it's happening. I still plan to "jump" in May. I'd like to keep to that schedule if at all possible.  

 

My son just left the house to live in a dorm. That's a very positive step for him and I'm happy he's made the change, but it's an emotional issue for me and so my depression is a bit more severe this week as a result. Life at home is easy for him and by staying at home and commuting to university I fear that he's not been getting the experience he needs. His progress out and into the world is slow, but it's happening. I'm hoping it continues. 

 

Have returned to the practice of meditation as of January first. I started TM in 1978 while in my junior year in college, but have meditated only sporadically since. While on Paxil I had a hard time getting back into the practice, and now, while tapering from Celexa, I've had an even harder time. But my symptoms seem to be lessening enough to let me get back into it. Reading INSIGHT MEDITATION by Joseph Goldstein to help me orient myself back.

[myndfull]

I'm back. Sooner than usual. Woke up last night with one of my "migraine" headaches. I call them that because they seem to be similar in effect to the migraines my wife has had over the years. (I don't think I've ever actually had a migraine.) Woke up at 2:30 a.m. and got up and took three Advil. That helped. Got back to sleep on the couch, though it was fitful.

 

The pain is in the nose, the brow ridges, they eyes a bit, the forehead. My tinnitus is worse when it happens. When I'm in bed with it, if I lie very still I won't feel much; but if I move an inch the pain reverberates through my skull. Bright lights also make it worse. When I got up I made a cup of decaf coffee (that's the only kind I can drink now) and had to make it in a dark kitchen.

 

I'm going to make another drop on Saturday, ten days after my last. I'm down to 0.21mL. I've been hoping to make my last drop sometime in late May or early June. When I get to about 0.10mL. But I'm not sure that's going to work. I'm still feeling pretty intense WD; most of it's physical in nature -- "flu-like" symptoms. And though the cycling depression and anxiety are less intense than they have been in the past (I DO have the subtle sense that things ARE getting better), I still get depressed and anxious for no good reason. In other words, they're caused by WD. 

 

I imagine I'm on a plane that's landed, and the taxiing to the terminal is taking a very, very long time. I want the pilot to step on the gas, get us unloaded; I want to feel terra firma under my feet--I want to get home as soon as possible and greet myself at the door, hear myself say, "Happy to see you. Welcome home!"

 

That may be a year a half away, two years away, stil. We'll see. I'll have to play it as it lays. This is my central preoccupation: how long this last stretch will take me.

[myndfull]

Dropped to 0.20mL this morning. Been feeling better; yesterday was a good day, overall. Drop by drop, inch by inch, I'm getting there.

 

I'm wondering something: Many posters here on SA drop in mg's -- milligrams. I'm using liquid Celexa so I state my drops in mL -- milliliter. My oral solution states that for every five milliliters of solution there is ten milligrams of Citalopram/Celexa. So my calculation informs me that taking a dose of 0.20 of my liquid solution means I'm getting 0.40 milligrams of medicine.

 

Question: When folks state their milligram drops are they talking about the amount of medicine (the active ingredient), or are they talking  about how much physical "stuff" they're ingesting (fillers + medicine + whatever)?

 

My other question: Does this matter in any way?  

 

What I know: I'm getting low in my daily dosage. That's really my only concern.

 

This morning I meditated for about an hour. During meditation I had a...I'll call it a cortisol spike. My anxiety rose. It seems that one of the WD symps of anxiety that I frequently have is a negative response to attempts at calming. When I consciously attempt to sooth myself, I can end up making myself more anxious. This is principally why I've had such a hard time meditating while in withdrawal. But while I meditated this morning I focused my thought on my rising anxiety as it happened; I didn't turn away from it or try to ignore it; I tried to see what was happening to me as objectively as I could. And by doing that, I beat it back. I said to it (my anxiety): "Look, you're an illusion. I know why you're intruding on my calm: You're here to get me ready for the day. But I'm not about to go out and chase a dragon, slay an enemy, avoid danger, find food for my hungry children. I know, dear dear anxiety, that you're reflexive and that you have a job to do. But I'm okay and I don't need your help. Yes, it's true what I sense that you're thinking: I'm in control here. Consequently, I want you to pipe down. Crawl back into that hole you came out of and stay there. And BTW: thank you very much for being part of my system. I know at times you're useful. When I need you I know you'll be there for me. But for now, bugger off!"

 

I'm drinking decaf only now; no more half-cafs. If I continue to meditate I think I'll need to cut out all caffeine, even decaf. At another time in my life I would have jokingly said something like: "What's life without coffee?" Now, its loss is my gain. And when I'm off Celexa for good and I'm a year and a half out and the smell of an espresso draws me to it like metal to a magnet, then so be it; I'll indulge. 

 

Then again, the after time that's coming I hope to be meditating still. It can make me very happy. And what the hell is wrong with that? Being happy? Absolutely nothing. 

[myndfull]

I'm on here a lot lately and that bothers me a bit, though I know it shouldn't. But it helps me to rationalize my situation. We're all in the same boat. Right now, I'll do the bailing. We'll all get through this stuff and when we reach land I'll be the last off. I'd like to sit in the stern and watch your joy as you plant your feet on terra firma. That's a lasting memory. 

 

But enough of my metaphors.

 

I read through Hudgen's posts and feel I need to make more posts, not fewer, as I go through these last months before I "jump." I want this journal to be as complete an account as I can make it of what I'm going through, thinking about. I want to print it out when I'm done and file it away for my kids. They're both on SSRI's themselves. Who know? Someday, after I've gone, they may want to read it. It might help them on their journey.

 

I looked at my thread from the beginning for the first time in a long while. I didn't post more than a few times in the first two, two and half years. And I rarely got on the site during that time. I found the reports coming from others--about the withdrawal they were suffering--to be too difficult to read/incorporate.  Now, I'm on SA every day and just lately writing every day. I'm understanding that as a positive.

 

My problem, like a lot of men I would guess, tho' I'm not sure, is that I have an "I'll go it alone" attitude. Stiff upper lip. Grin and bear it. Grace under pressure. Etc. It's been very hard for me to ask for help.  Writing a journal like this would have been unthinkable for me three and a half years ago when I joined SA. Writing this journal here on SA is a positive change for me.

 

You know, I've been through something like this (tapering, withdrawal, mental illness) before and I think that past experience is what has helped me get through my taper. When I hit puberty I quite suddenly became a very anxious person. One night when I was thirteen I went down to the beach with my older brother and a couple of his friends and I smoked part of a joint. The effect sent me into a panic attack. I didn't know that was what it was called. Anyway, that was the first of many panic attacks over the next three to four years. High school, at times, was very, very bad. That experience then is very much like what I experience daily now, at 60, tapering off an SSRI. Back then I didn't know what it was and withdrew into myself, not telling a soul, not even my parents. I suffered alone, as many of us do. I muddled through. I was never suicidal. I had very intense interests in music and literature and they became my escape. I made a few friends, tho' not the kind you keep for long. About the age of 18 I began coming out of it. I began pushing myself to "get out there." Etc. In other words, I survived myself and my teen years. I got through it. I have every expectation that I will get through my taper.

 

One of the positive consequences of my new anxious teenage self was that I knew I had to stay away from marijuana. My father was a drunk/alcoholic and I knew I had to stay away from alcohol, too.(My mother drank, but that is another story.) But all along I struggled to pull myself forward. (We ALL do, don't we.) I very much wanted to rise above the embarrassments of my father's addiction. It shamed me and I was not about to let it drag me down. 

 

I went to college and did very well. I went to an ivy league graduate school based on good undergraduate grades (high school not so good). I met a woman who is still my wife. I had and have two wonderful kids. 

 

I muddle through, but I've always pointed myself in the same direction: forward. About eight years ago I ended a relationship with alcohol that Paxil, I think, was partially responsible for. I drank and then one day I didn't.  I haven't looked back. No taper. No sorrow. No tears. Alcohol was easy to get out of my life. A little over four years later I started my taper off Celexa. 

 

A litte history never hurts. I'm not special in any way. I got through a difficult time then and I can do it now. I think that's what I'm trying to say.

 

On to my symptoms: Last night I could feel the usual tensing up. Sometimes the anxiety feels like a moderate sun burn: I'm hot. My body isn't regulating my temperature correctly. My brain seems to be on fire and sudden movements and bright light don't help. I'm tensed; my right ear is ringing; I'm ready to break into a run should I need to; I look out at the world as I might while sitting in the dentist's office waiting room listening to his drill bear down on a patient. Oh, God! I'm next. I'm on edge. And when I'm on edge I lose my personality.

 

One last thing:  I understand the idea of WD/normal. My last two years or so have been a gently descending WD/normal--a state of anxiety/depression, etc., etc. Many on SA have held for months to stabilize, to get their WD/normal closer to Normal. I haven't done that. I've made my drops religiously every month (now every week to ten days) and I'm just muddled through. As I get better--as my WD/normal is replaced with Normal--I'm a little anxious to know what that Normal will be. I don't really know what Normal feels like anymore. My WD/normal gets a tiny bit better and then I drop. I seem to have a thick head, blunted feelings--I don't know what. I've just worked through the pain that comes with each drop. I don't know, really, what it means to be me without these drugs in my system. That unknown is a bit frightening.

[AmyK]

Just a short note. I was afraid of going to zero too. Death scared. But as I went down to almost nothing (well under 0.001 mg) the jump was without drama. It just felt like a big relief. And overwhelming feelings of joy. Hitting zero didn't feel more than a the usual drop. In the end I dropped tiny, tiny every week just to go as low as possible. (After zero there will be some adjusting time, when the body heals even further, as you know.)

Go with how your body feels. 

I am so happy you are almost there! 

Amy

 

(People are talking about the drug dose, not the weight on the scale - which often is bigger.)

[myndfull]

Thanks, Amy.  Words from the wise.  I'm fairly certain I'll be doing what you did, too--and what others have done. I can set a rigid schedule all I want, but it's how I'm feeling that should and will direct my course. I wanted to jump at 0.10 this coming June, but more likely I'll jump later in the year or about a year from now.

 

Myndfull

[AmyK]

From 0,4 mg (Zoloft though) it took me around 8 months to go down to zero. I don't think it has to take another year for you. 

But we shouldn't compare. Just be proud of how far you have come, continue slowly and enjoy that you are actually able to see the end of this drug journey. 

All the best,

Amy

[myndfull]

Amy -- That's very good to know. I hadn't done the math, or checked folks' signatures to see, but I have assumed that many who get very low can sort of speed up at the very end; that is, their drops are far bigger than 10% and made far more often than every month or so. I'm already feeling far less withdrawal than I used to, but, again, I'll have to wait and see. I'm prepared to take as long as it takes and adjust my drop schedule when I need to. Someone wrote in their journal that they wanted to get as low as possible so that they'd have the "softest landing" possible after their jump. Me, too!

 

Myndfull

[myndfull]

Wrote this on Viridian's page in response to his question, "Were many of your difficulties with the 10+% drops in the early stages?"

 

I'm not sure it all makes sense, but it's a start:

 

No, they were more difficult later, say at and below 5mL or so, but it's been difficult all along. I guess the early days were a bit easier (I wrote about this a bit in my journal). It's hard to explain why or how. I'll say it this way: In the early days, when I was still feeling the me that the SSRI created, someone not terribly emotional, a bit blunted, who didn't know where he was going, but was determined to get there, full speed ahead--I could rationalize away some of the pain. I said to myself: I'm not suffering because I'm me. I'm suffering because I'm not taking the drug. Whew! Okay, carry on then! You can do it! Being emotionally blunted because of the medication, I could take that stance fairly easily. I would power through.  

 

Now that I'm very low in dosage a lot of my old personality is coming back. Those two states--low dose + returning "me"--rub up against each other, cause some friction--what I would call existential angst, discordance. However, the questions I've always been asking myself along this journey remain the same. It's just that now I have a need for different answers. Answers to questions like "Who am I?" "Will this ever end?" "Where will I end up?" "Did I do the right thing?" etc. 

 

Since I've learned the lesson from the early days of my taper--it ain't me, it's the drug--I'm beginning to feel that finding the answers to these questions has become more complicated. For example, my earlier answer to "Who am I?" was "I'm not the drug or its affects." And to "Will this ever end?" the answer was "Yes." Now, as the drug has had less and less emotional effect on me, I feel I have a greater responsibility to myself to make myself better, so my answer have changed. I'm on the one hand less certain of my answers, and on the other certain that I'll be okay. 

 

Here's what I've been telling myself:  "As you drop more and more, how you feel is not because of the drug. It's because of you. It's what you do, what you eat, what you think, how you react, etc., etc., that matters. It's less the drug. It's more and more you." 

 

This is not a bad thing; just a meaningful difference. A bit scary. And it's existential, of course, because at the heart of this change is the realization that I'm responsible for the way I feel. That is ultimately empowering. Generative.

 

I will say this with absolute certainty: I'm in a better place now than I was earlier in my taper. I'm stronger. More serious. Less frivolous. More thoughtful. More empathetic. I'm a better me.

 

And, of course, I have hope that the trend continues.

 

Experience truly is the greatest teacher. 

[myndfull]

Dropped to 0.19mL today. Have been having some horrible headaches--I have a low-level one now. And my sleep is very off. 

 

Waited longer than a week since my last drop, but still not sure I should drop today. We'll see how it goes. 

 

I'm not taking Advil for the pain, or not very often. Don't want to blow my liver. I took a Benadryl last night and it helped with the headache, especially the pain/sensitivity in my sinuses, but didn't really make me drowsy.

 

Myndfull

[SkyBlue]

On 2/14/2018 at 12:46 PM, myndfull said:

Dropped to 0.19mL today. Have been having some horrible headaches--I have a low-level one now. And my sleep is very off. 

 

I'm not taking Advil for the pain, or not very often. Don't want to blow my liver. I took a Benadryl last night and it helped with the headache, especially the pain/sensitivity in my sinuses, but didn't really make me drowsy.

 

Hi Myndfull,

The headaches sound awful. 

I don't think I would worry about taking Advil if it helps you...

 

Have you had any luck with magnesium? It is a "calming" mineral, so a good magnesium can be helpful for pain as well as sleep. 

[myndfull]

Hi, Sky -- I'm tired of suffering through it so I have been taking more Advil. The last few days, though, the headaches have been very minor to non-existent. I get the feeling like these headaches are Celexa's last hurrah. It knows it's grip on me is weakening so it's throwing everything its got left at me. And that isn't much.

 

I do take magnesium citrate tablets, but I haven't done it consistently enough to see a difference. Epsom salt baths can be a big help.

[myndfull]

Update: Have made two weekly drops since my last update. Now down to 0.17 mL. I finally stopped using my 1 mL syringe and began using a 0.5 mL syringe. This syringe is so small I have to be very careful how I use the plunger. I can barely see the measurement lines (it doesn't help that the lines are blue, not black, and that I'm  taking the med early in the morning, just after getting out of bed).

 

My withdrawal symptoms (neuro-emotions) are declining in severity. I still have a lot of them: depression, anxiety, panic, sleeplessness, headaches (and other physical ailments), etc. But they're manageable--that is, they don't send me into a panic. I haven't had the neuro-headaches lately and that makes me happy. And I haven't been asking myself questions like, "Will I ever be well again?", "Do I have brain damage?", "Was all this suffering worthwhile?"

 

I have a strong sense that I've rounded third base, that my plane is docking, that I've reached the edge of my pit (I've got my hands on the rim and I'm pulling myself up--and out--very soon). 

 

One problem with this good news is that I feel I can now make bigger weekly drops. I have to quash that notion. If I continue to adhere to the schedule I set for myself a few months ago, when I started to make smaller weekly drops instead of monthly 10% drops, I should be able to jump in late May. If my symptoms continue to "settle down" over the next two months, and I sense it might be ok to jump sooner, I will.

 

I continue to exercise (run on a treadmill) four to six days a week. When my symptoms are low, I also micro dose cannabis, using a pinch of AC/DC (high CBD) with an even smaller pinch of THC. It's about the only "supplement" I use that actually works.

[myndfull]

Updated my signature.

 

I seem to be cycling through two groups of symptoms: headache/dizziness/insomnia and gut issues/irritable bowel. I'm just entering the former, exiting the latter. For both I've used Advil to cut the pain, along with judicious use of CBD/THC. Hoping for the best: that is, that these cycles will eventually go away. On a positive note: symptoms for each do seem to be getting less severe.

 

My psych issues are much less a problem. Little anhedonia, less mind fog. Little or no DR/DP. Feel more grounded in reality. Few or no panic attacks. Feel much more myself.

 

My direction is still forward, into the future.

[myndfull]

Yesterday I dropped to 0.14mL of liquid Celexa.

 

I want to make an observation about how I'm feeling. My psychological withdrawal symptoms have lessened a great deal in the last few months. That's the good news. The bad news is that I have had chronic physical symptoms that have made life difficult.

 

I've been reading about histamine intolerance and I think it's what's affecting me now. My brain has healed, or is continuing to heal, but my body -- specifically, my gut -- is now fighting a different battle on another front. As has been said on here by others, AD's act as anti-histamines. Here's what Pennylane34 said about this:

 

"I am actually finding out that antidepressants act as anti-histamines and change the gut lining by lowering histamine response and producing DAO (daimine oxidase).  When we come off SSRI's most of us experience brain fog due to us not producing our own DAO for years and years.  Therefore we get cloudy or foggy/allergic reactions to things that we normally never had prior.  (Hence people developing food intolerances, acne, IBS after coming off meds) Healing the body of histamine intolerance is actually healing the damage done by SSRI's.  It's one piece of the puzzle."

 

So, it may be that as I get lower and lower on Celexa, my histamine levels are getting higher and higher. My own endogenous production of DAO has been suppressed by Celexa for so long that it doesn't work as it should; it's not regulating the amounts of histamine I have. At the same time, I have continued to eat pretty much anything I like and I've found that what I often like to eat are histamine-rich foods!

 

Here's a list of symptoms of histamine intolerance (a YES indicates that I have that symptom):

 

Headache/migraine -- YES

irregular sleep pattern -- YES

hypertension -- YES (slightly elevated BP at abt 130/80; not too concerned at this point

dizziness -- YES

arrhythmia -- YES

difficulty regulating body temperature -- YES

anxiety -- YES

nausea and vomiting -- YES to the former, NO to the latter

flushing -- YES

abdominal cramps -- YES

hives -- NO

fatigue -- YES

tissue swelling -- YES

brain fog -- YES

IBS -- YES

 

So, I'm in a weird situation now, vis-a-vis my withdrawal. For several years I've made my monthly (now weekly) drops and felt the predictable psychological distresses--neuro-emotions. Over time that distress has lessened. Now that I'm taking very, very little Celexa my distress has become physical not psychological. This has caused a shift in the way I view Celexa. I used to feel that the less I took the better I would feel, but that having some in my body was a good thing (if I were to suddenly not have any Celexa I would be in a world of trouble); so, steady as she goes; this will all be over in time. Now, I feel that the more I take of the drug, the more my physical symptoms will continue. In other words, right now I'm feeling I'm just prolonging my suffering because without the mental issues affecting anymore I see that taking the drug is simply making me sick. Consequently, I have a strong urge to stop taking it; its disrupting the natural functioning of my body. And I know now that I won't start healing until I get the drug out of me. I don't have much worry about the psychological upset that stopping the drug will cause; I've been through the neuro-emotions and I can take more of them if I have to. I'm worried that if I continue to take it I will be contributing to the awful way I've been feeling, gut-wize. I feel I should stop taking it immediately to get the healing started. I'm taking a poison; it's affecting my gut; and my range of symptoms proves this. 

 

The good news is that my physical symptoms, too, are lessening in severity. I had one of my headaches the other day and took nothing for it, and by the end of the day it had gone away on its own. At that time, though, I had already started my low-histamine diet, so that might have had something to do with it.

 

I have begun to pay attention much more to what I eat. I'm trying to eat low-histemic foods. Trying. So much of what I eat is high in histamines. I'm also going to be growing my own bean sprouts for their daimine oxidase content. I'll see how that goes (and report back here later). I do know that I have to get some control over my symptoms, and one way to do that is to stop taking this damned drug altogether.

 

My scheduled last dose -- at 0.10mL -- is in late May. I may get there sooner. 

 

Of course, as I've said before, I'll have to see how things go.

 

If anyone has any sage advice, please chime in.

 

[myndfull]

Update: The diet mentioned in my last update seems to be helping. I'm essentially eating a low histamine diet. Part of this diet includes eating bean sprouts for the DAO that they contain. I've been making my own pea sprouts (and I'm very much trying to enjoy them!). Not using any sugar--not sneaking any chocolate. Not eating nuts or dried fruits--these have been my goto snacks for a long, long time (and I SO miss them). Little dairy. Eating many more green foods than usual. A lot more fresh food.

 

My WD symptoms have been negligible. I don't really have waves or windows anymore; I DO still have WD symptoms but they're very manageable; depression is low when it comes and it lifts soon after it starts--three or four hours max; physical symptoms (headaches, IBS) have mostly gone.  

 

I know "better" is subjective, but since I'm not feeling particularly introspective at the moment, I'll just say that I feel I'm getting closer and closer to feeling myself. 

 

I dropped to 0.12mL on Friday and I might drop to 0.1 on Wednesday (a larger drop than I've been used to). If that goes well, I'll make faster drops in the next two to three weeks and stop -- "jump" -- sometime in May.

[myndfull]

Update:  Dropped 50% this morning, from a drop made earlier this week to 0.10, to now 0.05mL (of liquid Celexa/Citalopram). My symptoms over the last two months have been relatively low and are getting more and more manageable. I still get headaches, but they're low-level and don't usually require much medication (Advil or CBD/THC). I've been sticking to my diet of low-to-no sugar/low-histamine foods and I think that's contributing to my lessened symptoms. My anhedonia is still around, but it's often in the background now, and I can successfully treat it with a mixture of CBD/THC (mico-dosing organic herb I grow myself). I sometimes recognize that the anhedonia is still there and it frustrates me; it puts a damper on just about everything I think and do. If it's a cloth, let's say, draped over me at all times and everywhere, it's no longer a heavy woolen blanket; it's now sheer rayon that easily slips away, especially when I'm up and about doing things. Waves and windows are still with me, but the seas are less troubled/stormy, and the glass is much more translucent. I'm getting better; knowing that gives me a lot of hope.

 

My objective is to assess my situation in a week's time and then jump/quit/stop this Celexa nightmare altogether. We'll see.

 

I've never made such a big drop, though, and I'm worried. I can handle the psychological stuff that's coming--it can't get any worse that what I've already been through (or can it...?); it's the physical symptoms that I'm worried about. My tinnitus is already ramping up a bit (the other day I had an epiphany while reading in a quiet room: my tinnitus, a constant companion for years, was almost not there!). 

 

My sleep is better overall. There are now times (and they seem to be getting more frequent) when I wake at three or four in the morning and I can actually turn over and get back to sleep. For years and years, even before beginning my taper, I haven't been able to do that. I'm also dreaming a lot more. A LOT more. I like it. Odd dreams (aren't they all?) but dreams that are my own, not garbled gangsta dreams full of badness, the sick me traveling through a dreaded world/landscape where I have no confidence or sanity or intelligence, a dream-world, a Celexa withdrawal nightmare world, that didn't go away when I woke up; that played out through my waking day. Miserable. Everything negative.

 

Now my dreams are actually interesting; I'll wake, turn over and consciously try to go back to them. When I get up now and start my day my dreams quickly fade (which is normal; I like normal!).

 

Well, as I said, I'm a bit worried about the coming symptoms. I know now that every time I've made several drops in a row, much less one of 50%, I've had repercussions.

[myndfull]

Update: This morning I stopped taking Celexa. My last dose for a week or so was 0.05mL.

 

I've been tapering for just under three years, nine months. Time to stop.

 

Wish me luck!

[wantrelief]

Congratulations, myndfull....well done!  

 

[myndfull]

On 5/12/2018 at 10:54 AM, wantrelief said:

Congratulations, myndfull....well done!  

 

 

Thanks, wantrelief! I hope you're persevering, getting better. I appreciate you speaking up. 

 

Update: Well, the sky hasn't fallen. I'm doing okay. More than okay; but I'm cautious. The usual symptoms have hit me since I jumped, though they're now very mild when I compare them to what they used to be: a bit of nausea/gut upset, a flirting headache that now never quite comes, a cessation of dreams and a return of insomnia (four hours sleep the previous two nights, six hours last night), the ever-present anhedonia and its afternoon accompaniment: brain fog. (Both of these, too, are much more bearable.) I sense that I'm getting better. I've been saying that for months and months, now, and every day my sense that my recovery is heading in a positive direction gets stronger in me. More and more I can remember what it was like being me. (You know it's weird and awkward to say it, but I liked that person; I'm looking forward to getting to know him again....)

 

A positive outlook can be a powerful medicine--especially when we need it most: when it's so hard to find. Hope has helped me crawl out of and away from that despair. I want to be cautious saying that. One thing I've learned is that each time I have a so-called "window" I'm hit with symptoms again, only stronger. Well, we say that that pain is the healing coming. Okay. So then I've said to myself, hopeful while gritting my teeth: I get that; I believe that. And now, today, I say to myself (and to you) they were right, I was right--but they were righter! I'm better. I've come out of the pit. They were right. That pain WAS the healing. I take comfort in the fact that though this drug has made me mentally ill, each day I get a little bit better. A little bit better. A little bit better. And that I'm winning.

 

I've fallen off my diet a bit. I've learned that Celexa is probably not anti-histaminemic (how the heck do you form the adjective for that?). My wife is a health professional and has steered me straight about this. The older psych drugs, the ones our parents took, were anti-histamines; they screwed with the gut. Well, whatever has been happening to me (mostly IBS-like symps), I don't think my low-histamine diet has cured it; the fact that I'm feeling better physically is probably not because of the histamines or the DAO up-or-down regulation. It has much more to do with the fact that I'm getting off Celexa AND because I'm eating well where before I wasn't. Before, I was eating much more; now I'm eating much less. Also, and I don't think I've mentioned this, for the last few months I've been taking fiber supplements twice a day (morning and late afternoon), a probiotic twice a day (a "mood"-enhancing one that supposedly stimulates the gut's ability to produce more serotonin), and drinking much more water. Also, I've been consuming much less caffeine. And, I'm eating a lot more green food and practically no processed sugar. This has helped both my mood and my physical withdrawal symptoms. 

 

One way I know this is that yesterday, feeling a bit celebratory, I ate half a chocolate bar and drank a full cup of caffeinated coffee in the afternoon. And OH MY GOD did I feel it. Jittery, bloated, distracted, negative, unfocused, angry, irritable. That sounds like me with withdrawal. For about three hours my now usually mild withdrawal symptoms got noticeably worse. More and more I'm thinking that food is (indeed!) medicine. Less is more. Less is more. If I keep saying that someday I'll believe it in my gut, not just in my brain.

 

As I get better I need to continue to work on fine-tuning my eating habits. I need to eat better. What I eat affects my mood. I have to stop eating when I'm not hungry. I need to continue to say to myself: If you can stop an addiction to Celexa, surely you can stop eating yourself to death! Something like that, anyway. (I can be overly dramatic at times....)

 

Lately, I've also been feeling that I need to come to this site less often. I come to SA.org more out of habit now than out of necessity. Please don't take that in the wrong way: though I haven't been a very active member here, I've come often for the hope and the insights the site can provide, and I've always found it. Now that I need less of either (hope/insight), I sense that I need to come here less. I don't think I could have kept going with my taper had it not been for this site. But at some point we all have to leave the hospital and go home. I think Hudgens said that, too, somewhere.

 

I think I should stick to some schedule going forward. I'll come back here once a month to write a brief update. And I'll make a promise: One year from now--on May 12th of 2019 (or thereabouts), I'll come back and write a success story. I have a suspicion that in a year I won't be "cured." But I'm pretty certain that I'll be better.

 

In June I'm going on a three-day car-camping trip. By myself, up in the Sierra. Fishing. No internet. I won't be taking my Celexa bottle with me.

 

In July I'm flying across the country (I don't like flying; haven't been in a plane for many years) to attend a writers conference. I somehow won a spot. I have two deadlines to meet; I have to get things done that don't have anything to do with my life of withdrawal. My point? I'm getting back into the groove. Out from under.

 

I want to say this, (I'm crying now as I write this and you know, like I do, that crying at the drop of a hat is a withdrawal symptom--I'll deny that for a moment and insist that these tears are all mine) that even though progress off these drugs is unbearably slow, getting off them IS possible.  You, too, like me, like the many others who have gone on and left the site, you, TOO, will get better.

[Dan998]

Congratulations on reaching the mythical land of the zeroes.

 

It may come as a surprise to hear that absolutely nothing changes, well not for a while anyway. But, here's the good bit, your brain can now begin the process of recovering without the influence of these evil poisons.

 

"This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." ~ Winston Churchill

 

There will still be some bumps in the road. The windows and waves will still apply. But, you WILL definitely start to notice some significant improvements over the coming year. Most importantly you will rediscover who you are. It is a beautiful experience.

 

Good luck my friend and try to keep us updated on your progress. It will help give courage to the multitudes that have yet to tread this path.

 

Best wishes,

 

Dan.

[myndfull]

46 minutes ago, Dan998 said:

Congratulations on reaching the mythical land of the zeroes.

 

It may come as a surprise to hear that absolutely nothing changes, well not for a while anyway. But, here's the good bit, your brain can now begin the process of recovering without the influence of these evil poisons.

 

"This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." ~ Winston Churchill

 

There will still be some bumps in the road. The windows and waves will still apply. But, you WILL definitely start to notice some significant improvements over the coming year. Most importantly you will rediscover who you are. It is a beautiful experience.

 

Good luck my friend and try to keep us updated on your progress. It will help give courage to the multitudes that have yet to tread this path.

 

Best wishes,

 

Dan.

 

Thanks, Dan. I needed to read that. I'll be slowing down for those bumps

 

I was thinking yesterday, "What if you never fully recover, Myndfull. What then? Suppose the way you are now with these cycling withdrawal symptoms doesn't end, and the way you feel now will be the feeling you'll have for the rest of your life?" (I'm 60.) My conclusion was interesting, a difference from what I would have said or felt a year or so ago: "Well, C'est la vie. Whatever will be will be. I'd be okay with it. The struggle continues." I suppose this is what's called acceptance.

 

A year or two ago, I would have felt something much more dramatic. Suicidal ideation, etc., etc.

 

I don't want to be forever cycling through anxiety and depression, but if I'm condemned to it, I could survive it--not thrive, just muddle through. I take this as progress.

 

But, of course, I'm also looking forward to that "beautiful experience," as you so aptly put it. And if it does come, it'll be the icing on the cake (I always did save that for last...).