Simon: Introduction

[JanCarol]

Oh that's nice!  One drug.  Which one?  The one he wants to keep is likely the antidepressant which by my guesses (and SA in general) would be the one causing the problem.  So yes, there is a bit of a conflict there.  IF IT WERE ME, I would come of the antidepressant first, using enzymes to supplement and try and stay away from your deep depressions.  Then the benzo.  Then the lithium.  THEN, if after a couple of YEARS (yes, I said years) you still can't get out of the funk, look at an alternative means to boost your depression and stay away from the antidpressant until absolute last resort.

 

Some polydrug people stagger their tapers:  Come off the antidepressant some, then wait, stabilize, and come off some benzo some, wait, stabilize, etc.  And again, I tell you your "polydrug" is a mild one - you have no neuroleptics in the mix, I know many people walking around on 5-7 drugs.  I have a 5 year old nephew on neuroleptics!  So it could be worse!

 

It's likely too late to go for that "clean slate," and it's my guess that you wouldn't know what that clean slate is like until you've been off ALL the chemicals for at least a year, maybe 2.

 

I hope you don't find that view horribly discouraging.  And you are not the only one on SA who has had to updose for stability.  Or re-dose, as is your case.  I think that it's brave of you to stay in here and try to learn in order to optimize and try and take charge of your mind and condition to move forward.  As we say downunder:  ONYA!

[wantrelief]

I hope everything goes smoothly with your transition to Effexor.  I know how hard it is to make a decision to change and/or add medications when our goal is to be off of medication.  Don't worry about the future, just focus on feeling better and the tapering will happen down the road.  

[LoveandLight]

My best wishes to you.

[simon]

Thankyou  for your posts Jan, WR and Joanna

Preaching to the converted I know but browsing Joanna Moncrieffs website I came across a link to this person,( Julie leonovs open letter re.) if you put that into google youll be able to read it. Its a reply to a radio prog. in which a psych who takes ADs and is in praise of them is questioned by Julie Leovovs and she makes a lot of interesting points I thought, mainly about the chemical cure myth. (that's why I said its like preaching to the converted!)

Actually I do like Moncrieffs lecture to a conference in New England, especially  when shes talking about the 'Drug model' and the Disease model' or psych drugs. She makes the very simple but succinct point that in the former, an AD can be compared to drinking alcohol to get over social anxiety, ie it creates an altered state in which one effect is a loss of inhibition. But you don't then go on to make the claim that you needed the alcohol because of a perceived lack of it in your body!

The disease model on the other hand is the 'insulin for diabetes' argument. She points out that the drug model was always the accepted way of looking at psych drugs in their early days and then were hijacked by the disease model over the last few decades by the drug companies. They created a 'disease' for the sake of selling their drugs.

Another good example I thought was to explain how some anti-psychotic drugs do not actually put anything right, but the doping effect makes the person less interested in the delusion they may be having or the voices they are hearing.(and less interested in everything else as well.)

I find it quite useful to hold onto that phrase 'altered state' in relation to ADs, as it fits in with Breggins 'spellbinding' ie you may not be aware of the state, while you are in it. (same with alcohol too I guess)

So I see them as creating an altered state; that's why its hard to know whats you and whats the drug.

[JanCarol]

AWESOME article Simon!  (and you must be feeling better to read it!)

 

I was deeply moved by a comment below the article by someone named AgniYoga:

 

 

AgniYoga on 

April 15, 2014 at 7:18 pm said:

How much ignorance is feigned I do not know, but I suspect many psychiatrists realize they are phonies and that they are really no different from the witchdoctors their ancestor laughed about. Still there are bills to pay and miles in an expensive car to go. Without the drugs many of these men and women would be out of a job. So there you are.

In my opinion depression and mental illness in general are a matter of two things: identification and agency. If I do not know who I am how can I claim to be the negative emotions I experience? If I drive through a dark and dismal slum I do not immediately conclude I am a dark and dismal slum. Why not? If I see a cat, I do not conclude I am a cat. Again why not? When I perceive a negative emotion and a negative thought why must I conclude that is me? So the important thing is to get a self certifying answer to the question, who am I.

Secondly, who is the doer? Can anyone give a certain answer to that one? Clearly when a loud unexpected sound goes off nearby, and I jump, my agency is not apparent at all. At what stage do I become the genuine doer? The German philosopher Schopenhauer gave this answer regarding our actions: Doing comes from essence. That was a medieval answer to the question. Thus the thoughts and emotions that come into my mind are in some sense a reflection of who I am as a unique person. I have not simply been thrown into the environment. But almost all of the time thoughts and impulses simply arrive unannounced are acting upon or not. It is with great difficult that anyone can make any sense out of the notion of free will other than the legal definition–involving sanity and not being coerced at the time.

Depression is often a long journey through the subconscious slums like a journalist living for months or years in a war torn country. Destroyed edifices, smoke, hungry people, wounded and dead, torn trees and cloudy skies and the sounds of gun fire and motar shells.

  OMG!  Why is it that we thing we ARE the depression, instead of a tourist in depression land?  This fits with a lot of meditation and work I have done that really drives home the role of trauma, scenery, environment, and identification with (or liberation from) that scenery.

[JanCarol]

Hey Simon, still hanging?  Here's thinking of you, hoping you are keeping warm!

[simon]

yes, still hanging; not literally though as the suicidal 'ideation' has gone thank goodness. Saw my GP today who thinks itll be good to wait a while yet before proceeding with anything else, reduction-wise. Although I am gradually coming down off the benzo at 10% and that's going well, will halt that at about 3mg (6.5 at present) I gave him several downloads from this site which he gladly took on, mainly the stuff about withdrawal syndrome from Alto and a post from Rhi about 'growing a new brain' which I find very useful myself.

So I will just wait in the wings for the time being and look forward to the time being right to start to taper off this stuff. A good benchmark of my own progress is that im able to read again which means concentration is good and distraction, so less rumination. So it might also mean that I can get back into some more effective meditation, without the over-distraction of unwanted thoughts.

Hope your hand is healing up!

Simon

[wantrelief]

So glad you are feeling better, Simon!  

[Flowers]

So glad to read  that you are in a better place now Simon. I am like you, just waiting to settle down  on the updose of Cit and to feel better  before starting a slow taper. I can cope with most of it except for the dark thoughts I was having but am pleased to say that although they are never far away for 2 weeks they haven't reared their ugly heads! I saw a psychiatrist last week for the first time. Thankfully, I had found this site so was forarmed and forwarned! He was a really nice youngish man from South America (no wonder I couldn't understand his spanish!) and was quite happy with my request to  not  give me anymore meds although he did suggest one that I will not be taking! He even advised me to do walking, yoga and pilates and agreed to support me with a slow taper in the future. I found the whole thing terrifying as I am not in my home country so a bit out of my comfort zone.   I  was relieved by his attitude. Sometimes people can take you by surprise and I think you are lucky in this way with your GP.

 

It's good that you are getting back concentration and I hope you can soon start meditating again as you mentioned it has helped you in the past. I just cannot quite 'switch off' enough to contemplate that so am starting yoga and stretching classes once I get over this rotten cold. If you have any relaxation tips please pass them on!

 

I couldn't read or watch TV or even talk to anyone a few weeks ago - now most days I can  and it is so nice to get distracted from how I am feeling for a little while.

 

Hope things continue to improve for you - there is a whole world out there waiting for us when we are better and drug free. And we will be - I know it!!

 

Best Wishes

 

Flowers

[JanCarol]

That's good news, Simon, about being able to read, and getting that info to your GP.  I remember when I took "Anatomy of an Epidemic" to my psychologist and my psychiatrist.  And I was SO IMPRESSED that they actually read it.  The psychiatrist poo poo'd it as "meta studies" but the psychologist then went to hear him speak when he came to town, and has since become my greatest ally.  It is she who files the "Jan is doing well" reports that cause my psychiatrist to relax a bit, and not be so paranoid about my long, slow, taper.

 

So I will be curious to see what and how much your GP takes on board.  Knowing as I do, that doctors are busy people - well.  That they "skim" anything I give them is met with respect.  So I'm curious to hear what the GP picks up as "most important" or, rather, "most important for Simon," in this case.

 

I reckon you shouldn't even think about a taper (stop thinking about it!) until you've been stable at least 3, or maybe even 6 months!  I know, I know, it slows down the process - but I heard a story about a zen master today (it was on the Will Hall video you posted earlier):

 

A student comes to the master and says, "How long until I reach enlightenment?"  "Ah," said the master, "5 years."  The student earnestly asks, "But if I work really really hard, and earnestly, and strive really hard, how long, then, will it take to reach enlightenment?"  "Ah," said the master, "20 years.!"

 

Taper is like that, neuroplasticity is like that - you can't rush the blooming of a flower, nor can you make your brain heal any faster.

 

I always have hopes that anyone can come completely off the drugs.  But I cannot judge what is in your own brain and mind.  Take this time to research, learn about magnesium and fish oil, sleep hygiene, put all your meditation and exercise and support into place, THEN, when you've been able to relax a bit, and BE, THEN you might start thinking about tapers.  

 

So yes, sadly, I'm suggesting you stay on the drugs until further notice.

 

Good to hear from you!

[simon]

That sounds like excellent advice Jan and I will take it on board. yes I am impatient especially when I notice I am now in my late 50s! But that's just tough really. On the other hand I may have another 20 years ahead, so its worth going for.

 I see it as a challenge for the future and I think the wait of several months (same as my GP suggested) is sensible. Maybe this time round I will have the courage of my convictions  and be able to take the pain of possible WDs. I know that if I took any more advice from a psych, then it would be a rapid taper again and 'told you so' response.

Yes there are many things to put in place and keep in place in the meantime, lots of therapies that need to be strong, that will eventually replace the drugs.

Anyway im keeping fit too with walks along the coast with dog. Theres a drama on ITV at present set on the part of the coast that is my favourite spot, so that's quite interesting. Over here we get lots of Scandinavian police dramas many of which are quite good, Wallender and The Killing, and I notice that this British one has taken on board aspects that make them popular, mainly the use of music and the grim looks on peoples faces.

Actually the dog let me down the other day by running onto the beach where a little girl had just built a sandcastle and propped a bucket on top. I suddenly heard the mother yell 'Whose is that bloody dog?' only to  see that she had peed directly into the bucket. Maybe she thought it rude to pee directly onto the sand. Quite comical. I had to wash the bucket out for her.

Anyway im making a big batch of marmalade with the Seville oranges that appear in the shops at this time of year, so the house is smelling quite sweet at the  moment.

Im glad your  medic people took an interest in Whittaker to the point of seeing him speak. I remember not long ago being scared to read that book; it felt like  I was letting myself in for a beating. Like,'why didn't I read this stuff 20 years ago!' Sometimes the truth is very painful. I feel sure that the next generation will be scared off these meds.and be far more aware of the alternatives. We are the poor guinea pigs.But I guess it was always that way really. One generation has to try out the stuff and learn from it. I certainly hope that will be the case for our two daughters ,both of whom take a small dose of ADs. There are lots of alternatives around.

Best wishes

Simon

[Pugknows]

My computer hasn't been connecting to the internet for the last couple of days, hence not making any replies. Many thanks Joannad, F and Jan.

Yes my GP does seem genuinely determined to eventually bring down this drug burden to one. At least at that point I may be able to take a breath of fresh air.,and take stock.

But stability is the name of the game now. Ive just gone onto150 Ven (feels like heresy saying that on this site.) Doesn't actually feel very different at present,except that I managed to watch most of a film on TV last night, so I guess my concentration is being affected just a tiny bit. I thought I was feeling very 'wired', yesterday (1st day on the full dose) and that I was in for a sleepless night. But I got a full night in thankfully. Cant concentrate enough to read though , so the days are very long and monotonous at present!

My thinking is very shallow and I get feelings of panic when I cant recall often the simplest thing (things I know that I know). it all feels so permanent, like brain damage but guess ive been here before and got out of it.

Still got 'suicidal ideation' as the psychs would say, that's to say a sort of crazy bottom line, that if things get so bad..... many of you will know what I mean.

Family-wise, unless I can come to some more permanent feeling of healing I don't think we can go on living together. When I am like this I put far to much pressure on spouse and its not fair. We go round in circles about causes and cures and it doesn't get anywhere in the end. The truth probably lies somewhere in between on the one hand ,blaming the drugs and on the other, needing the drugs because of some kind of deficiency.

I can say with certainty though, that over the last 7 years on this cocktail my mental powers have diminished alarmingly. This in turn effects my self image, confidence, social relations, and work. Whats weird though, is that during those 7 years I tend to be in denial about whats happening in these areas, not admitting to myself that things are going downhill. I sort of choose to ignore it, to pretend that all is well when it isn't. (I understand what Breggin means by 'spell binding'.

Im glad Joannad that you have your GP on board and I know what you mean by the slight unease at sensing the lack of knowledge from the 'professional'. I sensed this from the psych I saw, who in effect came up with about 4 solutions during 2 consultations. Its a change of attitude rather than necessarily a change of science I think. But im sure there are exceptions to the rule. My daughter was telling me that her doctor shows patients how to make liquid solutions, and provide syringes for doing gradual tapers off drugs.

[Pugknows]

Hi Simon, I hope you are doing better today. As far as your weakened cognitive abilities go, I just don't see it the way you so clearly and eloquently express yourself in the written word. The drugs you are on are telling your brain it is far more dysfunctional than it really is. Trust me. Your mind is playing tricks on you. Your brain and its healthy state shines through, in spite of the drugs. Keep moving forward s-l-o-w-l-y one foot in front of the other. You are doing great!

[simon]

Thankyou so much Pugknows; that's really encouraging of you to reply and to be so positive!

Yes im in a better place now than the day I wrote the above thanks and the word is , as you reiterate, 'slowly'! Not  a word that's been too much part of my vocabulary, but worth getting used to. Yes, you're right, the drugs do cause one to have doubts about abilities, strengths and weaknesses.

Hope you are doing well yourself. I will check out your posts.

Simon

[JanCarol]

LOL why didn't we read "that stuff" (like Whitaker) 20 years ago?  Well, it hadn't been written!  Why did we get to be the generation of guinea pigs to test out this "biochemical imbalance" theory of psychopharmacology?  Well, at least we didn't have to hang garlic around our neck to ward off the plague!  There have been mistakes throughout the generations, and this one is our generations major medical "whoops."  

 

The hardest part, is that the medicos don't see it yet, or only a very few of them do!  It's gonna take us to educate them.  "That is not my experience" when a fast taper is suggested.  And I've thought about my psych, who was kind enough to taper - it felt slow at the time, but was fast by SA standards - but it was still CAREFUL.  (this was venlafaxine, which is why I've been thinking about it so much!)

 

I'm glad you're feeling more present, and making marmalade - that sounds MARVELLOUS!  When I moved Downunder, I thought that the citrus would be excellent, like the best of California and Florida and Spain combined.  I was surprised to find it was "just citrus" kind of rough and ready, and not very pleasant to eat.  Making jam, however - that's AMBITIOUS!  Well done!

[LoveandLight]

Laughed at the dog peeing into the bucket..he maybe thought it was there just for him.

 

It sounds like your doing well..making marmalade that is quite a feat in withdrawal..well done and glad to hear your doing well.

[WinningThrough]

Just dropping by to say hi, Simon. I'm glad you feel a bit better.

[JanCarol]

Hey Simon, here's a thing:

 

 

[LoveandLight]

Thing guy struggled terribly I think.

[JanCarol]

I found him (Foster) wordy, too much verbiage - but I liked his premise, and think he would appeal to some.

[JanCarol]

Hey Simon - been thinking about you, wondering how you're going in your journey?

 

Still doing the Tai Chi?  Walking the dog?  Making marmalade?  Okay the latter is unlikely as a good batch of marmalade will last for months!

 

But just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you, and hope you are faring well.