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geminigirl

Geminigirl: Hope for Healing

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Altostrata

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Good to see you are doing better.

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geminigirl

Hi Alto,

 

I have a question for you.

 

I am wondering, I am doing a liquid taper and I am worried that my measurements aren't exact every single day. Like I usually put my 20 mg tablet in 20 ml of water solution, let it sit for 10 minutes, then shake it a lot, and then as fast as I can take out 3 ml with a 3 ml oral syringe, and then 1.5 ml with a 3 ml syringe. Then the rest I drink with apple juice.

 

Because I am not a chemist and am not doing these measurements in a lab, what if my measurements are not perfect?

 

Doesn't that mean that I will get increased withdrawal symptoms because the measurements have to be exact each and every time? Like perfect?

 

I also noticed today my head was so so so clear and everything was going so well and I was so in touch with my emotions, and then when I took my dose for the day, it's like that haze came back and sleepiness. It really sucks!

 

Why is it when I take my dose for the day I feel worse?

 

Is there any way I can just stop taking the meds? It feels so much better the lower my doses are getting.

 

I am also wondering how I will know if I am one of those people who gets protracted withdrawal?

 

As you know, I did get really bad withdrawal these past couple of weeks due to the accumulation of all my tapers, but after the nightmare, I get better pretty quickly, and it's like now I feel super good, better than I have in the past 6 years. My mood has even improved, and I don't feel the depression I did when I was on a higher dose.

 

Is there any way I can taper much faster, just go through the hell of withdrawal for a couple of weeks and then I will be done with this stuff fast? I really don't want to be on this stuff. I think my brain now knows its poison.

 

I just think that the 5% taper I was doing isn't so helpful because I still got bad withdrawal anyways despite going so slowly.

 

Now I feel me taking the drug feels too activating.

 

Should I split my dose in half and take one half in the morning and one in the evening so it wouldn't be too activating?

 

Let me know :)

 

Thanks,

 

Yana

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Altostrata

You cannot be perfect, but it's best if you are as accurate as possible and use the same steps in the same order every time.

 

You may find it easier to measure 4.5mL with a 5mL syringe.

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geminigirl

That's a good idea.

 

How about if I split my dose in half twice a day?

 

Could I measure 2 ml and then 2.5 ml each time?

 

Also, I noticed today that when I took my dose of 15.30, it was too activating.

 

Is there any chance I could take a lower dose now?

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geminigirl

Like I was doing better before I took my meds today. Then after I took them I felt less clear headed, more groggy and also felt more anxiety...

 

So ya, I was wondering if I can take a lower dose, like 10 mg?

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Dan998

Yep, accuracy is important. I had a situation a few months back where I screwed up my measuring and got some fairly bad symptoms - http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/8870-dan998-cold-turkey-reinstatement-and-tapering-citalopram/?p=212581
 
If you’re worried about accuracy, you can always dissolve your tablet in a much larger volume of liquid. For example, if you want to take 15.5mg, you could dissolve a 20mg pill in 200ml of liquid and drink 155ml, you are just multiplying the dose you want by 10. You can get very accurate doses using this method. Laboratory grade measuring cylinders will make it much easier to accurately measure larger volumes of liquid, these can be purchased from amazon.
 
I did a bit of looking about online for you and it seems to be fine to dissolve your tablets in fruit juice as long as you take it straight away, but you shouldn’t store juice solutions for later, because the acids in the juice will react with the medicine over time. If you wanted to store your solutions for later you should dissolve it in water and then mix with fruit concentrate just before swallowing. A solution made with distilled or filtered water should keep for at least week if refrigerated 
 
That’s great that you’re noticing an improvement as your dose gets lower. Feeling worse after taking a dose sort of proves that these are indeed side effects of citalopram. I also wake up feeling quite positive and energetic until I take my dose. Then I get drowsy and lack motivation. The problem with this is that it’s tempting to want to cut too much too quickly.  
 
Getting off these poisons is a delicate balancing act, the aim is to get rid of the side effects, but also prevent the withdrawal effects. What makes it really hard is the withdrawal and side effects are pretty similar, so we can never be sure which is which.  :unsure:  :wacko:  :blink:
 
You mentioned protracted withdrawal. There is no way of telling if you will get it or not, but do you really want to find out by experiment? Have you ever tried a cold turkey? I have, I felt great for a few weeks and then got slammed by a new level of awfulness that I never thought possible. It really isn’t something I’d want to see anyone else have to go through.
 
I can sense that you’re impatient to get this over with. All of us here are too, it’s frustrating how long tapering takes, but there really is no quick fix to this. Please don’t drop to 10mg, it is far too big a cut (33%) and might get you into all sorts of difficulties. You can always try a 10% cut if you feel that 5% isn’t enough, but you have to be prepared to hold until you feel stable again, however long that takes. 
 
Take it slow. You WILL feel better and better as your dose continues to get lower, but only if you keep those scales in balance.
 
There are quite a few of us on here that do split doses. Splitting the dose does mean more faffing about, but is definitely something worth trying and you can always go back to single dosing if you feel it doesn’t make any difference.

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geminigirl

Hi Dan,

 

Would it be easier if I just ask a compound pharmacy to do this for me? I feel this is too much work right now for my weak brain.

 

Problem is, I don't really trust pharmacists now. What if they make a mistake when measuring my meds?

 

Anyways, I will see.

 

Regarding the laboratory grade measuring cylinders, if I want to drink 155 ml of liquid, how big of a cylinder do I get?

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geminigirl

Actually,

 

I think I will just dissolve the 20 mg tablet in 20 ml of water and then take out 4.5 ml and drink the rest.

 

I will use a 5 ml syringe like alto suggested though and a 20 ml oral syringe to put in the water.

 

If I want to take the my meds twice and split them in half, how do I do that? Since I am only taking out 4.5 ml.

 

Also, usually what I do too is the little bit of meds left in at the bottom tip, I wash it in with the dose I will be taking. is that right?

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geminigirl

If I do it with compound pharmacy, I think my compound pharmacy can make the celexa into pill form.

 

Should I do that?

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Dan998

Yes, using 20ml liquid certainly makes the calculations easier when our brains aren't working properly. You can buy 1ml syringes for when you get to the smaller doses.

 

Using a compounding pharmacy to do it for you will be the easiest method. I think the reasons people go with the home-made liquid is because it's a lot cheaper and gives you more flexibility with tapering.

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Dan998
"If I want to take the my meds twice and split them in half, how do I do that? Since I am only taking out 4.5 ml."

 

You would have to do it the other way round. i.e. make up 20ml and take 7.75ml in the morning, 7.75ml in the evening and throw away what's left. Like we discussed before, the drugs will distribute evenly throughout the liquid if you give the bottle a really good shake before you draw up with the syringe.  

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coldturkmama

I don't know much about liquid tapers, so I can't be of much help but I wish you well!

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geminigirl

Thanks coldturkeymama.

 

I am feeling manic today. Before I took my meds I felt violent and angry, now I feel a bit too happy.

 

I really hate this.

 

I feel like I am going insane and driving others insane around me.

 

I feel I don't know who I am anymore.

 

That and I am also trying to do therapy.

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Altostrata

Thanks, Dan!

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geminigirl

Hi Guys.

 

I have a question.

 

My math and cognitive skills have been very iffy lately.

 

I am wondering if somebody could guide me through how to measure out my dose of 15.5 mg using these lab chemistry tools, and also what size cylinders I need.

 

My brain is definitely not working right.

 

Let me know if you can :)

 

Best,

 

Yana

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geminigirl

Hi Guys,

 

I feel so angry.

 

I was feeling so good this morning.

 

Then I took my meds, and it turned my happy, feeling, human mood into depression, and disconnection. This feels so horrible.

 

I am going to try and half my dose for tomorrow, as well as maybe take it in the evening. Yes, I think taking it in the evening is better.

 

It's crazy how after taking my meds, I feel so horrifyingly indifferent, like nothing matters at all.

 

I know now though its the meds and its temporary. I just need to get off this stuff!

 

All the natural feelings of connection I feel with people just goes out the drain once I take the meds.

 

This is so horrible.

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brassmonkey

Let's not do anything rash Geminigirl. I really think you should try splitting your dose half in the morning and half in the evening for a while. To just do a 50% reduction is going to cause a lot of trouble, you know better.

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geminigirl

Yes.

 

Do any of you guys experience feelings of intense anger for no reason?

 

This feels horrible.

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scallywag

Geminigirl, I wish I could blame my anger on psych drug withdrawal and call it a neuro-emotion. Unfortunately I almost always think I have good justification.

 

I answered the questions you asked in the topic about using a graduated cylinder.  Here's my response: Link

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scallywag

Geminigirl: Reading your signature, I'm guessing that you using 20 mg capsules.

 

This way makes the most of your capsules, giving you 5 days at 15.5 mg, leaving only 2.5 mg at the end:

 

  1. Put 80 ml of water into a graduated cylinder.
  2. Empty contents of 4 capsules (20 mg each) into 80 ml water.
  3. Result: You have 80 ml of liquid where 1 ml = 1 mg Celexa (citalopram)
  4. Shake the cylinder.
  5. Put an oral syringe into the middle depth of the liquid and withdraw 15.5 ml ( = 15.5 mg Celexa).
  6. Put the syringe in your mouth, squeeze out and swallow the Celexa solution.
  7. Keep solution in refrigerator.

At the end after 5 doses, you'll have 2.5 ml (2.5 mg) left. Either

  • discard this (simplest arithmetic for future batches), **OR**
  • take this 2.5 ml on the sixth day with 13 mg from a new batch.

If 15.5 ml is too small an amount to handle, use more water in step 1. Some options:

  • 160 ml water + 80 mg Celexa >> 2 ml = 1 mg; step (5) daily dose = 31 ml
  • 240 ml water + 80 mg Celexa >> 3 ml = 1 mg; step (5) daily dose = 46.5 ml
  • 320 ml water + 80 mg Celexa >> 4 ml = 1 mg; step (5) daily dose = 62 ml

Hope that helps.

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geminigirl

Hi Guys,

 

I just wanted to ask if you think I can get through this withdrawal stuff.

 

I am already a very sensitive, scared person and so I am worried I wont make it through this.

 

Even though I have not lowered my dose recently, I am still getting withdrawals from my recent crash.

 

I realized how much these meds have f****d up my life over the years. They took away my happiness and emotions.

 

I had a nervous breakdown before taking these meds and a lack of support from parents. I felt very alone and also had childhood trauma.

 

I have been in therapy for 4 years, but it feels like there has been no changes cuz my brain has been so blunted by the drugs, any changes that could have been made were all numbed out.

 

I am on disability currently, dealing now with my initial issue of why I went on the drugs, as well as the withdrawal itself. Welcome to hell.

Edited by brassmonkey
Cleaned up lanugage

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geminigirl

I also feel I have PTSD from these drugs, because anytime I try to be happy and positive, it's like a new withdrawal symptom comes along and I feel like it takes away all that progress.

 

I also have memory loss, and can't remember loved ones or the years I spent in therapy. It's like I was not there.

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brassmonkey

Put a quarter in the swearing jag Gemini. LOL  I know how you feel, but in the open forum we have to watch our language, we have members who are minors.

 

" I wish I could blame my anger on psych drug withdrawal and call it a neuro-emotion. Unfortunately I almost always think I have good justification." Scalywag

 

You can, because it is, but that's no justification.  It's a pattern of thinking that I call "the Anger Spiral".  It's very common in normal life and even more so in WD. It goes something like this.  Someones action, real or perceived, momentarily pisses you off.  This triggers a serious of ruminating thoughts that compound that action, blowing it out of proportion and adding to it a lot of supporting emotions dragged up out of your real or imagined past.  It build up and up until there is an explosion of anger.  It feels totally justified because of all the supporting material and the lowered inhibitions caused by the drugs.

 

Understanding the Anger Spiral goes a long way toward controlling it.  Watch for the triggers and try to recognize what is going on next time it happens. With a bit of practice it's possible to defuse the situation by recognizing when it is starting and changing the channel.  In the beginning it may not be possible to control the emotions, but if you can recognize the situation it is your cue to just walk away.  It is much better to be a bit rude by turning and leaving than to get into a confrontation.  Once you're out of "danger" the situation can be more rationally analysed and defused in your mind.

 

It takes some practice and sole searching but it does work.  I was originally put on Paxil for violent outbursts of irrational anger.  Over the years I have learned about the Anger Spiral and learned to tame it.  The mental training has been much more effective than the drugs ever were.

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scallywag

brassmonkey:  Thanks for your thoughtful response to my off-handed attempt to be amusing. Rather than muddle up Gemini's thread, I replied to you in my intro thread. If you want to read it, here's a quick link.

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geminigirl
Quote

 

 

Hi Guys,

 

Just wanted to say I hate these drugs sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much.

 

Just after a beautiful window, it all went away into the bleak darkness of the effects of these drugs.

 

These drugs even make it harder to feel close to people and god. It feels not good at all. It also takes away my capacity to think for myself and be independent.

 

I am still holding on and having lots of hope though. I know that there is love underneath all of this.

 

I currently feel so tired, its insane.

 

I really want to get off this stuff asap.

 

I am paranoid while on these drugs too and don't trust anyone.

 

Anyways, still holding on and hoping on,

 

I wanted to ask if I should start tapering again.

 

I am pretty sure I still have slight withdrawals, but I feel like the dose I take now is too much and I can take a much smaller dose.

 

I also am a really big believe in god and that he will carry the day, so I am thinking of just going down 10% this time, although I want to cut a much bigger dose.

 

I feel imprisoned :(

 

Thank you and god bless!!

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LexAnger

Hey Ggirl,

 

Just want to send a hug to you for comfort and support and let you know you are not alone.

 

Im glad you had a window. It will come again. Uprising has always given me huge problems, be slow and careful.

 

Lex

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KarenB

Maybe hold off a bit longer Gemini, till it's been at least a month, especially given that you've just had a window end.  Maybe reassess in a week - see how things look then. 

 

I know that feeling of wanting off them - just remember that slowly will likely get you there faster!

 

Karen

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geminigirl

Hi Karen,

 

Okay.

 

I am doing kind of bad right now though, still.

 

I have had terrible mood swings today and now feel very high and tired.

 

I am also very confused and basically house bound because of my anxiety and crazy mood swings. I also have short term memory loss.

 

Anybody else has been through this?

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KarenB

I have - both while on my full dose, and since reducing.  I am doing a lot better now, but last June/July/August I was pretty much stuck at home.  I had anxiety, depression, exhaustion - all at really high levels.  It wasn't pretty! 

 

It will change Gemini - just usually not as fast as we'd like.  One day you'll find you are in a better place again. 

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geminigirl

Hi Karen,

 

Thank you for the support.

 

I feel so tired and drained from all this though.

 

I want my brain and self back.

 

My adult ability to soothe myself and reason and not be so needy.

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Dan998

Hi Guys,

 

I just wanted to ask if you think I can get through this withdrawal stuff.

 

I am already a very sensitive, scared person and so I am worried I wont make it through this.

 

None of us start out strong enough to get through this ordeal. We all have our self-doubts and think that this task is impossible, but we become stronger with every day that we endure, until one day we realise that we can do this. 

 

If you truly desire to be free of meds then what choice do you have other than to keep going? But, you have to be smart and withdraw from the drugs nice and slowly.

 

Withdrawal is probably the hardest thing that you will ever have to do, but it can definitely be done, have a read through the success stories to give yourself some encouragement.  

 

All of us here understand what you are going through and want you to succeed.

 

You are stronger than you think you are!

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Dan998

I had the agoraphobia too. I hardly left the house for about 10 years whilst on full dose. This has steadily gotten better as I've tapered. Although, I still get days where I can't face the outside world.

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brassmonkey

Dan-- your post #253 is excellent, I've taken the liberty to repost it in the Best of SA thread.

 

Brass

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KarenB

Exactly my thoughts Brass - beautiful response by Dan.  (Thanks Dan - I bet a lot more people get encouragement from that post).

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MapleleafGirl

I used compounded pharmacy for my entire Paxil taper..it was so easy...because they made all the doses for me..and intend to do the same thing this time around...Pharmasave is where i got mine ..Shoppers or London Drugs does not do them...so if you have a Pharmsave in your area then its the best choice:)

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geminigirl

Hi Guys,

 

I am currently at 14 mg.

 

I am taking 7 mg in the morning and 7 mg at night.

 

The problem is that I am having a really hard time in the morning since once I take the meds, I become very manic and have strange homicidal thoughts and fears, paranoia, etc.

 

I feel I honestly cant go through life like that for another month until I get to a smaller dose.

 

Brass or Alto,

 

Can you advise me on whether I can just take a smaller dose?

 

Cuz the 14 mg is wayyyyy too activating and causes extreme mania and memory loss, irrational thinking, etc. My mother is also somewhat mean/doesn't understand and I am afraid she will send me to the police if I act that way. I am very sensitive and when people yell at me or take me to the police it makes it even worse.

 

Thanks,

 

Yana

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