vetdoc going off valium and Wellbutrin

[vetdoc]

Feeling decent for a day or two and then the return of the symptoms: sounds lot like windows and waves...Remember, there is no really turning around from this, just exchange of windows and waves.

 

I actually see you stop working as something good. You deserve it, you need it, you can afford it and great that you did this act of self-care. Those few decent days tell me you started stabilising and there are more decent days to come and waves getting weaker. I hope it already happened as I'm writing this.

 

You are very right in saying what you need at the moment: hope, faith and reassurance that this is all part of the healing process after the turmoil caused by surgery. And so it is. One month may seem a lot but actually it's not...

 

Let us know how you are doing.

Hi bubble

Yes I am now seeing that these symptoms are definitely windows and waves.  I feel somewhat better for a day then back to feeling poorly for a day or 2.

The stopping work for awhile has is helped my stress, some knowing I don't have to concentrate and use all my energy on my job.

 

I am gaining more hope and faith everyday that this to shall pass, thanks to the support and reassurance of all the good people like yourself on this board.

 

I am doing better today a nice window opened late yesterday, and continues as of this writing this morning.  I am much less anxious and mentally down, and my energy levels are much improved.  I am getting my appetite back some as well.

 

Thank you bubble for the continued support.

[Altostrata]

Why don't you just proceed on the assumption that much of what you're feeling is side effect from the drugs and surgery?

 

It seems to me that reducing doxipen is a good plan. It also requires careful tapering, so it will take time and patience for you to dig out. See Tips for tapering doxepin (Sinequan, Zonalon)

 

Why are you taking lamotrigine in the morning?

[vetdoc]

Alto

Ok so I'll start my 10% Doxepin taper.  Ill probably take 3mg in tablet form. I'll dissolve the other 3 mg in 25mls of H2O  and pull off 5mls which would be 0.6mg of doxepin  which is  10% of total dose.  I'll see how my body feels after 4-5 days and if symptoms arise I will adjust the dose accordingly.

 

I always have taken it in the morning.  I think early on I took it at night .but it may have activated me.  I read conflicting reports on lamictal that for some people it is sedating and for others activating.  I wish it was sedating for me it would help me sleep.  I could try taking half of it in the evening and see what happens.

If I were to try it I guess it would be before I started my Doxipen taper so I could tell which drug is doing what to me.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks

[Altostrata]

Does the lamotrigine do you any good?

 

When doses are too high, it can be activating. At a low dose, it can be calming and aid sleep.

 

A little further along, as the doxepin goes down, you might gradually move 10mg lamotrigine to the nighttime.

[vetdoc]

Does the lamotrigine do you any good?

 

When doses are too high, it can be activating. At a low dose, it can be calming and aid sleep.

 

A little further along, as the doxepin goes down, you might gradually move 10mg lamotrigine to the nighttime.

I don't think the lamotrigine does me any good..   I really don't know what it does except give me headaches and nausea.  I am so angry my P Doc put me on it 4yrs ago, back when they CT me off Wellbutrin.   200mg is a large dose for me.  I would love to have the dose down to 100mg and see how I feel.

 

Alto I also have  question about my Wellbutrin taper.   I have tapered down from 300mg xl .  I am now taking 150mg SR in morning and 18.75 mg IR early afternoon.  Do you think that the small dose 18.75mg IR would be better to take in the AM with the 150mg SR.   I'm not sure it matters?

When I make the next drop of 18.75 mg IR I will then be taking 150mg SR in the AM with no afternoon dose.  Is this ok? 

I won't be making this drop for awhile until I am down tapering the Doxipen.

Thanks

[Altostrata]

Taking the 18.75mg IR in the morning might reduce any activation from it in the evening, which could be affecting your sleep, but it may cause more activation in the morning.

 

Do you still get headaches and nausea from lamotrigine in the morning?

[vetdoc]

Taking the 18.75mg IR in the morning might reduce any activation from it in the evening, which could be affecting your sleep, but it may cause more activation in the morning.

 

Do you still get headaches and nausea from lamotrigine in the morning?

I get headaches and nausea on and off , it's not consistant with the lamictal in the morning.  I really don't know how much Lamictal side effects play a part in all my symptoms.  I guess I won't until I'm off of it.  I'd like to hear form others who have taken large doses of lamictal what side effects they encountered.

 

Alto I have a possible drug interaction issue I need help with.    I stopped taking Lansprezole a PPI a few days ago for GERD.   I started to take Rantidine H2blocker for the Gerd and to counteract rebound acid reflux from stopping the Lansprezole.

 

However I am reading conflicting reports that Rantidine may be a weak inhibitor  CYP 450 iso enzyme responsible for Valium metabolism.  If this is true I may be  be getting higher blood levels of Valium from my 2mg  dose, because of this slower metabolism of Valium.  I have read other reports that says Rantidine does not interact with  Valium metabolism.  I don't want to cause myself any more problems then I am already dealing with.

 

I'm concerned about this and need some help deciding what to do.

Thanks

[vetdoc]

 I have been on Lansprezole for over 10 yrs for gerd, along with Famotidine and I didn't appear to have side effects affecting my mental status I could attribute to these drugs. 

 

 I recently decided to try to get off of the PPI so the past week,I have been taking  taking it every 3rd day along with  Zantac  for the acid rebound.    It seems like the past few days days when  I didn't  take the PPI Lansprezole ,  I started to feel somewhat  better with less anxiety and depression. 

I took some last night and I had a miserable day today feeling low down and lots of anxiety.  I know there is probably no relation here  and  I'm grasping at straws here.

 

I read that PPI  can cause anxiety and depression.  I know its a long shot  for me since I took them for so long, I don't see how it all of a sudden it would give me these symptoms  .I also just read that H2 blockers can cause anxiety and depression.  

 

I'm just so fearful and paranoid right now  that taking any of these meds  will add to my  anxiety and depression.  I need to take the PPI or the H2 blocker (Zantac,Pepsid) for my Gerd. 

 

How likely is it considering I have been taking these meds for 10 yrs, that taking them now will cause my anxiety to worsen.

[savinggrace]

Hi Vetdoc,

 

I have had genetic testing for CYP metabolism, and found that I was a poor or slow metabolizer, so I have had to learn way more than anyone should have to to about this stuff.

 

This is one frustrating thing I know....when you look at these charts, they very as far as which drugs are listed as substrates, inhibitors and/or inducers.  Now, there are some very consistent ones, for example the trileptal and/or its predecessor, tegretol,  is a very potent inducer of many drugs.  That is consistent.  But the valium and remeron I take is listed on some charts as substrates of different enzymes, or not at all (CYP1A2, 2D6, 3A4 being the most common for p-drugs but listed for my drugs differently on different charts)

 

I have Barrett's esophagus which is the result of years of reflux (asymptomatic for the most part)  I am supposed to be taking PPI's but they all interfere with my drug levels.  I don't need charts to tell me if they do or not.  I have learned from trying.  Most people with my condition take PPI's but since my condition isn't show precancerous cells, I am managing my GERD with whatever dietary measures I have to take to manage it.  Now, that doesn't mean I don't get symptoms (nausea and a bit of chest pain now and then) but it does mean that my other blood levels stay constant.

 

The points I want to make are...the charts aren't consistent.  I did the research on PPI's back in December when I thought I was going to have to at least try them.  I think the best way to get an answer to this is trying the drugs and seeing if they make you feel better or worse.  For me, it was clear right away.  You may have try different PPI's and/or try to go off them.  There can be a significant rebound effect going off PPI's.  I have read many people (I believe in this forum) who have tapered from PPI's.  I do think it is possible to find one, if you must take one, that will have less of an effect on your drugs than others.

 

I feel your pain so much.  I have so many conditions which I am not taking anything for because I cannot allow my p-drug levels to fluctuate from one day to the next.  My diet is abysmal trying to tough this stuff out w/o the meds.  I think you should really consider looking at dietary factors first (I apologize if you have already done that; i don't know)  I have had a lot of symptom relief cutting out the worst offenders, all which I loved....tomatoes, coffee, chocolate, onions, garlic....to name a few.

 

I will study some CYP charts for you if you want help.  I am very familiar with them unfortunately.  Since my doctors are not, i have to be!  However, I try very hard to not let the knowledge I get from these charts to consume me and make me worry about what might happen.  I wait until it does, and then I adjust because I have evidence that I need to.  (though I haven't done so in almost 4 years as I just don't take other drugs for anything)

 

Listen to your body Vetdoc.  if you try the Lansprezole again and have the same results, you probably have your answer.  I usually give something at least 2-3 attempts (with recovery time in between)  before I draw a conclusion.  I think changing blood levels of PPI's is probably harder on you than taking the same thing every day as the drugs all interact with each other and they get used to it, so changes cause a disruption in homeostasis.  BTW, the PPI's are being recognized more and more as a cause of other health problems.  

 

You know I don't say any of this lightly.  I have a lot of suffering and angst over my situation as well.  At some point you have to try to make peace with the situation, and say it is what it is and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow.  I try to distract myself as much as possible from the intrusive worries and "what if' thoughts, but it isn't easy.,,,

 

Let me know if there is a specific drug interaction you want me to research and I will check a bunch of sources.

 

I sincerely wish you peace...

 

Grace

[Altostrata]

vetdoc, how serious is your GERD?
 
Are you feeling any effects of the lamotrigine at all?
 
See Drug Interactions: Cytochrome P450 Drug Interaction Table
 
you can check these interactions. Note: The identification of metabolism pathways is not clear-cut. For more information, Google the individual drugs and "cyp 450" and read up on what's known about their metabolization.
 
For example, see DrugBank: Diazepam

 

Diazepam (Valium) is metabolized by a half-dozen liver enzymes, plus its active metabolites are metabolized by still more. When a drug has multiple routes of metabolization, it's less likely to be blocked by another drug.

 

This is not to say a change in your acid blocker might not affect your entire drug balance and, as you're very sensitive, you might feel this.

[vetdoc]

Hi Vetdoc,

 

I have had genetic testing for CYP metabolism, and found that I was a poor or slow metabolizer, so I have had to learn way more than anyone should have to to about this stuff.

 

This is one frustrating thing I know....when you look at these charts, they very as far as which drugs are listed as substrates, inhibitors and/or inducers.  Now, there are some very consistent ones, for example the trileptal and/or its predecessor, tegretol,  is a very potent inducer of many drugs.  That is consistent.  But the valium and remeron I take is listed on some charts as substrates of different enzymes, or not at all (CYP1A2, 2D6, 3A4 being the most common for p-drugs but listed for my drugs differently on different charts)

 

I have Barrett's esophagus which is the result of years of reflux (asymptomatic for the most part)  I am supposed to be taking PPI's but they all interfere with my drug levels.  I don't need charts to tell me if they do or not.  I have learned from trying.  Most people with my condition take PPI's but since my condition isn't show precancerous cells, I am managing my GERD with whatever dietary measures I have to take to manage it.  Now, that doesn't mean I don't get symptoms (nausea and a bit of chest pain now and then) but it does mean that my other blood levels stay constant.

 

The points I want to make are...the charts aren't consistent.  I did the research on PPI's back in December when I thought I was going to have to at least try them.  I think the best way to get an answer to this is trying the drugs and seeing if they make you feel better or worse.  For me, it was clear right away.  You may have try different PPI's and/or try to go off them.  There can be a significant rebound effect going off PPI's.  I have read many people (I believe in this forum) who have tapered from PPI's.  I do think it is possible to find one, if you must take one, that will have less of an effect on your drugs than others.

 

I feel your pain so much.  I have so many conditions which I am not taking anything for because I cannot allow my p-drug levels to fluctuate from one day to the next.  My diet is abysmal trying to tough this stuff out w/o the meds.  I think you should really consider looking at dietary factors first (I apologize if you have already done that; i don't know)  I have had a lot of symptom relief cutting out the worst offenders, all which I loved....tomatoes, coffee, chocolate, onions, garlic....to name a few.

 

I will study some CYP charts for you if you want help.  I am very familiar with them unfortunately.  Since my doctors are not, i have to be!  However, I try very hard to not let the knowledge I get from these charts to consume me and make me worry about what might happen.  I wait until it does, and then I adjust because I have evidence that I need to.  (though I haven't done so in almost 4 years as I just don't take other drugs for anything)

 

Listen to your body Vetdoc.  if you try the Lansprezole again and have the same results, you probably have your answer.  I usually give something at least 2-3 attempts (with recovery time in between)  before I draw a conclusion.  I think changing blood levels of PPI's is probably harder on you than taking the same thing every day as the drugs all interact with each other and they get used to it, so changes cause a disruption in homeostasis.  BTW, the PPI's are being recognized more and more as a cause of other health problems.  

 

You know I don't say any of this lightly.  I have a lot of suffering and angst over my situation as well.  At some point you have to try to make peace with the situation, and say it is what it is and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow.  I try to distract myself as much as possible from the intrusive worries and "what if' thoughts, but it isn't easy.,,,

 

Let me know if there is a specific drug interaction you want me to research and I will check a bunch of sources.

 

I sincerely wish you peace...

 

Grace

Hi Grace

I know I can always count on you to be here in some way for me.   I feel like we are kindred spirits with so many similarities in our lives .

 

I'm impressed you had genetic testing and know you are a slow metabolizer.  I tend to think I may be also be a slow metabolizer as sensitive I am to taking any med.  I also seem to get many of the side effects of most meds.

 

I tried to be careful with checking my meds for CYP enzyme interactions since my doctors seem to have no clue.  Like you stated it can get confusing because there is conflicting data on substrate metabolic enzymes, and there inhibitors and inducers. 

 

I do know that my Wellbutrin does interact  with the Doxipen.  Wellbutrin is a strong inhibitor of cyp2d6 which metabolizes Doxipen.  So I don't know how much Doxipen I am really getting.   Also  since I have been tapering the Wellbutrin the past year it would also decrease my Doxipen blood levels due to less inhibition.  What a mess!

 

I'm sorry you have Gerd with Barretts, it  is a frustrating problem to manage.   I have a lot of respect that you are managing with diet restriction alone.  I do know how hard that can be since I have also given up so many foods., but I still need additional help for the reflux.  I have Hiatal Hernia with the Gerd so I must use some kind of med when sleeping or I really suffer.

 

I  took the Lanzprezole and famotodine everyday for  14 yrs before and while on my  psych meds.  They both worked well with no apparent side effects and I seemed to have my Gerd "managed".  So  I don't know why now since my surgery I am so consumed that these 2 acid blockers after all these years might be causing or adding to my anxiety and depression I'm having now.  I should have seen these side effects before now after 14 yrs, correct?

 

Possibly because I feel so poorly since my surgery,, Im not thinking clearly at all.  I think I need to let it go and just take them as I always have without worrying about them causing me harm at the moment.  I will eventually taper off the PPI, due to some serious recent news  of kidney failure and Alzheimer's

 

Im just feeling so poorly right now, the depression and anxiety won't let up.  I think this is the worst I have felt since I was put on these psych meds 4 yrs ago in the hospital.   I never thought I'd be here again this bad, ever.  It's almost surreal to me..   It scared me so back then and I'm scared right now.  I'm almost 5 yrs older now so it seems harder to cope with the feelings of depression and anxiety they are so intense.  There is nothing I can do right now except sit with the feelings and try desperately to stay hopeful that tomorrow will be a better day.  When the feelings are this intense it can so very hard to not get overwhelmed and lose all perspective on believing this will pass.  I'm normally pretty strong and able to fight thru these intrusive worrisome thoughts and believe it will pass.   I always have throughout my taper, but this wave of symptoms has a tight grip on me.

 

Thank you Grace for your help, it means a lot to me  I know you will understand the angst of all this for me right now. 

 What I admire is that you  have the amazing capacity to endure one day at a time in spite of the struggles and worries and you try and find peace in it all.  That's a true survivior.  I hope I can do the same, and pull out of this

[vetdoc]

vetdoc, how serious is your GERD?

 

Are you feeling any effects of the lamotrigine at all?

 

See Drug Interactions: Cytochrome P450 Drug Interaction Table

 

you can check these interactions. Note: The identification of metabolism pathways is not clear-cut. For more information, Google the individual drugs and "cyp 450" and read up on what's known about their metabolization.

 

For example, see DrugBank: Diazepam

 

Diazepam (Valium) is metabolized by a half-dozen liver enzymes, plus its active metabolites are metabolized by still more. When a drug has multiple routes of metabolization, it's less likely to be blocked by another drug.

 

This is not to say a change in your acid blocker might not affect your entire drug balance and, as you're very sensitive, you might feel this.

I have serious Gerd with a Hiatal Hernia, I cannot manage it without some kind of acid blocker.  Either a PPI or H2 blocker  I think for now I will just continue taking the famotidine and Lansprezole I have taken all thru my psych med taper.  I'll try not to worry about interactions or side effects since I have been taking these for a long time.

 

Alto I'm not sure about the lamotrogine effects.  I have always wondered about what lamotrogine is doing in all this. ( insomnia?.,activation?

 

Why do you ask about Lamotrogine?

 

I'm feeling so poorly right now, since my surgery it's very concerning to me.  I haven't felt this bad since I was first put on these psych  meds four years ago in the hopsital.  It appears that the surgery-anesthesia destabilized me severely .  I'm very sick right now with marked anxiety-depression. no appetite, weight loss and I don't know any other explanation for it.  I also dont have any way to stop it, since I can't pin it on any one med!

[Altostrata]

I had no appetite for months after a surgical procedure. I understand this is not unusual, it's called post-surgery anorexia.

 

Do your best with your favorite foods and things that are easy to eat, such as broths.

 

"Depression" can be a side effect of benzos.

 

The reason I ask about lamotrigine is that a small amount at night might aid your sleep and help you get off doxepin. If it's making you queasy in the morning, all the  more reason to split the dose.

[vetdoc]

Alto I have been on just 2mg for past 2 .5 yrs.  Do you think that low dose could cause depression.

[vetdoc]

Im starting to wonder if I could have some type of cognitive brain impairment post surgery. (dementia)    I'm so apathetic and fatiqued I can barely perform normal daily necessities, like daily hygeine, feeding my pets.  I'm becoming so frail. 

 

It's like my brain is so dulled, yet anxious, it just feels like some type of brain  dysfunction.  It doesn't feel like it is going to get better on its own just sitting with it day after day.  I'm trying to stay strong, but it's so hard not knowing if it will resolve.

 

My wife thinks I need some type of professional  help.  I can't talk to my PDoc I'm sure he will only try and find the solution through drugs, it's what they do. My internist recommended a women psychotherapist..  I don't know what to  do.  I really am at a bad place right now, trying to stay hopeful.  I keep thinking who is going to help with this if it doesn't get better, which only makes it worse.

 

I'm getting desperate!!

[savinggrace]

Hi Vetdoc,

 

I understand the desperation you feel. It definitely sounds like most of this has gotten worse since surgery. If that is true, your whole body and brain are still adjusting to the trauma of surgery, anesthesia, and other drugs used.

 

I don't think you are going crazy at all. I do think you need time. The hard part is not knowing how much time, but I think you will return to whatever your baseline was before surgery.

 

Remember, we are hyper-sensitized. Surgery is a major affront to a sensitive body. You need time. I also highly recommend not doing too much research on "possible" side effects. You may need to try harder to distract and engage in calming activities.

 

Therapy probably won't hurt. I go but honestly it's hard to find a therapist who understands the devastation these drugs cause. You may be able to find someone who can help with anxiety and depression.

 

I'm with Alto. Eat whatever appeals to you (as long as it doesn't cause pain obviously)

 

Be kind to yourself. Rest, and try not to worry about tomorrow.

 

Grace

[Altostrata]

vetdoc, 2mg Klonopin per day is not an insignificant dosage.

 

Be kind to yourself, your body has had a shock with the surgery. Your current symptoms may very well be side effects from the drugs. You might have become more sensitive to them, for example.

 

Take a look at the common side effects for each of your drugs. Then add them together. Many people on lamotrigine alone feel dopey and out of it.

[vetdoc]

vetdoc, 2mg Klonopin per day is not an insignificant dosage.

 

Be kind to yourself, your body has had a shock with the surgery. Your current symptoms may very well be side effects from the drugs. You might have become more sensitive to them, for example.

 

Take a look at the common side effects for each of your drugs. Then add them together. Many people on lamotrigine alone feel dopey and out of it.

Hi Alto

I'm on 2mg Valium, daily not Klonipin, sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

 

Yes I'm convinced now that the surgery put me into a major tailspin.  The mental anxiety of the surgery along with some serious post op pain this past month, has taken it's toll.

 

I was wondering the same thing , if the  side affects of my meds  have intensified after surgery..  I know when Wellbutrin turned on me at the 300mg level about a year ago, I had extreme anxiety and needed to taper down to my present dose 167mg.  Maybe it's possible that even at this  this dose it  has started to add to my anxiety again.  If I remember correctly this sort of thing happened to Meime, when she tapered Wellbutrin.

 

 The  lamictal may be the  cause of my brain fog, and I do feel spaced out by mid afternoon.  Also I'm wondering at this 200 mg Lamictal dose it  could be  acting paradoxical and be activating instead of claming.

 

Thanks

[vetdoc]

Hi Vetdoc,

 

I understand the desperation you feel. It definitely sounds like most of this has gotten worse since surgery. If that is true, your whole body and brain are still adjusting to the trauma of surgery, anesthesia, and other drugs used.

 

I don't think you are going crazy at all. I do think you need time. The hard part is not knowing how much time, but I think you will return to whatever your baseline was before surgery.

 

Remember, we are hyper-sensitized. Surgery is a major affront to a sensitive body. You need time. I also highly recommend not doing too much research on "possible" side effects. You may need to try harder to distract and engage in calming activities.

 

Therapy probably won't hurt. I go but honestly it's hard to find a therapist who understands the devastation these drugs cause. You may be able to find someone who can help with anxiety and depression.

 

I'm with Alto. Eat whatever appeals to you (as long as it doesn't cause pain obviously)

 

Be kind to yourself. Rest, and try not to worry about tomorrow.

 

Grace

Hi Grace

I am starting to accept that the surgery and all that goes with it traumatized my body and my brain and upset the homeostasis of my sensitive  brain. It has been hard to accept that the way I have been feeling could all  be from my withdrawl symptoms and the interaction of anesthesia, pain meds and my own meds.  .  It's just incredible that the symptom of  major anxiety that took hold of me can distort all perceptions of what is really happening.  I now see the power of anxiety and how important it is to learn to deal with it.

 

I will try going to the therapist and see of it appears to be beneficial.  I may also try some acupuncture for the anxiety to see if it helps.  I've actually never tried acupuncture.  Some people say it is very helpful.

 

Today I had a window open, feeling much less anxiety and I had a good nights sleep.  I hope the window lasts for awhile and give my body and brain some relief.  I'll take it one day at a time and enjoy it.  I'm trying to show some loving kindness to myself,been  listening to some talks on loving kindness.

 

Thanks Grace, hope all is well with you.

Peace

[Altostrata]

vetdoc, what is your current plan for adjusting your drugs? What changes have you made in the last 2 weeks?

[vetdoc]

vetdoc, what is your current plan for adjusting your drugs? What changes have you made in the last 2 weeks?

Alto

I  need to probably rethink a new plan at this point.  I have been tapering some Doxipen the past 2 weeks, down to 5.4 mg from 6. 

 

I really want off the Lamictal, badly.  I have  a very fearful phobia about tapering the Lamictal after hearing many horror stories about I hard it can be to come off.

The fact is I tapered my valium down to 2mg,(from 40mg),   the Wellbutrin down to 150mg,(rorm 300mg),  but I'm still on the original large dose of 200mg of Lamictal.  So I don;t  know if a lot of my side effects I've been  having for a long time,  fatigue, brain fog, dulled emotional response to pleasure or enjoyment,  insomnia,  is due to Lamictal.

 

If I don't start to taper Lamictal soon I may be stuck on it forever.  I know Rhi tapered off of it painfully slowly with a micro taper and had minimal symptoms.

 

I think I'm so tired of getting withdrawl symptoms from tapering these meds I don't want to get to destabilized form tapering Lamictal

 

Any suggestions?

[Altostrata]

Don't worry about the Lamictal, it's a relatively benign drug.

 

I was thinking you could start moving, say 25mg Lamictal gradually towards the evening, by an hour every day to start. But you need to hold on making changes for a while first so we can ascertain a baseline.

 

As you had a window, this might be a good place to hold for a bit.

[vetdoc]

Hi

 

Well the window I had only lasted a day!!  I woke up today and did not want to get out of bed.  I am feeling so hopeless , depressed and weak.   My brain is so dull and appears to be shutting down. It truly feels like my neurotransmitters are short circuited.  

 

I'm starting to see I can hardly take care of myself without my dear wife and sons  support.  I've become a shell of myself, don't even recognize the person I have become.  Just sitting at home watching  life just passing me by everyday.     I know I am becoming a worrisome burden on my wife and son, although they would never show it.  I  love them both and feel deep sadness having them see me like this, knowing that all they can do is  pray I will get better.

.

I have developed agoraphobia, and  fearful of being around people.  I can't be around people the way I am  thinking and feeling.  Just  watching  everyone acting spontaneously  and free makes me see how dysfunctional  I have become. The state I'm in right now makes it difficult to sort out whats really happening to me and I can''t seem to get a grip on it.  If it doesn't get better what will happen to me is a constant anxiety.  I'm  trying so desperately to take this one day at a time, but when the bad feelings creep in it's so hard to see any light at the end of the tunnel.

 

What is most  frighting for me is  losing  that ability to make decisions for myself,  I will then have others making the decisions for my well being.

I saw my father wither away in a care facility from dementia and die at age 82.

Maybe I have a genetic makeup that is manifesting early for me, causing this problem.  It's always in back of my mind.

 

 

I am having a lot of people telling me to trust  my P Doc for help..  They don't know what else to do, seeing me in such a poor state they are just  trying to help  I suppose. They don't know much about psych meds and withdrawal.  

 

I have a med check appt with my PDoc this week.   I told him over the phone about my condition  and about my surgery.  He said we will get thru this together, and then recommended I take 5 mg valium 2 times a day until I see him.  I didn't do it, so when I see him he will ask why.  He has really been very accommodating in writing scrips and supportive during my taper.  I suppose he will tell me he can't help me now  if I don't follow his advice.

 I actually understand that if he says that.   As a Psych Doc the only way they no to "help" is with meds.

I know of course going to a P Doc, his only solution to my condition will be to suggest med adjustments or additions

 

.It feels like I'm dammed if I do, dammed if I don't, with no clear solution.  This is wear the hopelessness creeps and then my mind tells me if this situation does not improve, no one or anything  can help me thru this.  I know  my well being is truly at stake at this time

 

One thing for certain during this crisis, is I can't ever go back to a hospital for this, I could die just thinking about it.     I went thru that four years ago and barely survive,. it was tortuous.   I'm so scared of this happening again it's paralyzing for me.  I never thought that I would have to think about that  possibility ever  again, it's always been such  a fear of mine.

 

I

 

So far all thru my withdrawal I survived, although there were scary times.  Some how I always mustered enough strength and hope to pull me thru the bad waves, and get back on my feet.  I really never thought I couldn't do it although there were times it pushed me hard.  This time I have been pushed to the edge,  and I just can't seem  to take a step back, to see the situation with any kind of  clarity.    I guess that is where the fear comes from, because this time it feels so intense a

 

I know you guys can't fix this for me, but I just appreciate your support and understanding because you have all been thru it one way or another.

 

Thanks

[Altostrata]

Yes, recovering from these drug reactions can be very frustrating and discouraging.

 

You might benefit from Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) techniques, to manage the doomy thoughts.

 

You know you can make decisions, you just don't feel very strong right now. You may feel you can't do much, but you can do as much as you can. Please stop being so hard on yourself. You're recovering from illness.

[savinggrace]

Hi vetdoc,

 

 "So far all thru my withdrawal I survived, although there were scary times.  Some how I always mustered enough strength and hope to pull me thru the bad waves, and get back on my feet.  I really never thought I couldn't do it although there were times it pushed me hard.  This time I have been pushed to the edge,  and I just can't seem  to take a step back, to see the situation with any kind of  clarity.    I guess that is where the fear comes from, because this time it feels so intense"

 

Your words...you need to see with clarity, and believe, that you can and will survive. You have more resilience than you are allowing yourself to see. You are blessed with a dear wife and sons. Do it for them. Carry on for them.

 

I think before you see your p-doc, you need to have your goals for the visit in mind. You can tell him anything you want if you know what meds you want to be taking. At this point he is not going to advise you to taper anything. He already proved that. I have lied numerous times to my psychiatrist, because I think he is the best I can find and I need his cooperation.

 

You had a window yesterday. Grasp onto that, knowing another one is just around the corner.

 

Grace

 

[vetdoc]

Yes, recovering from these drug reactions can be very frustrating and discouraging.

 

You might benefit from Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) techniques, to manage the doomy thoughts.

 

You know you can make decisions, you just don't feel very strong right now. You may feel you can't do much, but you can do as much as you can. Please stop being so hard on yourself. You're recovering from illness.

Thanks Alto  I am trying to hang in there. I am trying CBT

[vetdoc]

Hi vetdoc,

 

 "So far all thru my withdrawal I survived, although there were scary times.  Some how I always mustered enough strength and hope to pull me thru the bad waves, and get back on my feet.  I really never thought I couldn't do it although there were times it pushed me hard.  This time I have been pushed to the edge,  and I just can't seem  to take a step back, to see the situation with any kind of  clarity.    I guess that is where the fear comes from, because this time it feels so intense"

 

Your words...you need to see with clarity, and believe, that you can and will survive. You have more resilience than you are allowing yourself to see. You are blessed with a dear wife and sons. Do it for them. Carry on for them.

 

I think before you see your p-doc, you need to have your goals for the visit in mind. You can tell him anything you want if you know what meds you want to be taking. At this point he is not going to advise you to taper anything. He already proved that. I have lied numerous times to my psychiatrist, because I think he is the best I can find and I need his cooperation.

 

You had a window yesterday. Grasp onto that, knowing another one is just around the corner.

 

Grace

 

Hi Grace

It's been up and down. I had a window today, and I grasped it.  I know I have to find a way no matter what to get through this,  I dont know how long this will last.

  My wife is begging me to take some meds for the anxiety, because it is keeping me from eating much and I am losing more weight..  I told her the only meds for the anxiety that would be prescribed to me would be a benzo.  I took 1.5 years to taper 40 mg a day Valium down to 2 mg, I can't go on a benzo. 

 

She is starting to get worn out by this watching my inense struggle and not taking a med for it. She doesn't quite get the severity and long term effects of going back on benzos.  

She told me tonght if I lose any more weight and don't turn around soon she will insist that I take a med  to break this anxiety looping and will call my PDoc!!

I hope she doesn't break down from all this.  It's causing a major stressor for the family.

[savinggrace]

This is all so hard on relationships. I marvel every day that my husband is still here.

 

Has your wife read anything on this forum? How about on the benzo site. There is a book title Worse Than Heroin. I think I downloaded it for free a few years ago. Maybe if she would read some of this stuff, she could accept the reality better.

 

Maybe the CBT will help you control your anxiety which will give her some relief. We can't discount how much stress this all is on them.

 

Does she know that up-dosing the benzo or taking a different would likely be a very short fix, if at all, and will ultimately make you worse?

 

Do you write down your fears? Sometimes our spouses just need a break from listening to us, so sharing them w/ someone else, or just writing them down is a good substitute.

 

I can't remember if you are working or not. If not, you need to push yourself into doing some distracting activities.

 

When you feel fearful, imagine yourself w/o your family. Maybe it will help you try to get the anxiety under control.

 

I wish I could help you more. I hope you can find something for your wife to read that will convince her you are doing the right thing.

 

Is there anything you feel like eating at all? You must force yourself to eat, even if it is a few bites/hour. Do whatever you have to to keep from being hospitalized.

 

My best,

Grace

[Altostrata]

Please consider leveraging the lamotrigine dosage you're already taking. Yes, it could make a difference.

[savinggrace]

How are you doing Vetdoc? It's been a while...hope you are hanging in there.

 

Grace

[vetdoc]

hi Grace

 

Unfortunately Im doing poorly.   My anxiety and depression just won't let up. I'm ready to jump out of my skin.  I may get one day of some relief, thinking it may finally turn for the better,  and then it starts all over.  I don't know what to do anymore.  I've become so dysfunctional, it really scares me.   I can barely get myself to go to a DR appt and need my son to drive me.  All this deterioration happened over the past three months.

 

I still have no appetite, trying to force myself to eat but it's hard.  Im  starting to think whatever happened to me to get me here (surgery?) just won't turn around.  I was hoping it was the surgery but it's been 7 weeks and still no improvement. 

 

The thing is I don't know if its withdrawal anymore since I haven't tapered any meds for 4 months.   So if it is withdrawal why so severe without tapering?

Maybe it a side effect of the Wellbutrin getting activating causing anxiety, it did it do this once before.  I feel very drugged all the time.

 

My PDOC said I should try to increase my Wellbutrin and see if it helped at all.  I just don't know any more.

 

My family wife, brother and sister are pretty much at the end of the line with it.   They said they can't sit by and watch me deteriorate much longer.  They are insisting I do whatever the Pdoc recommends at this point.  They are dead set on he knows best for me.  Im starting to feel I'm in big trouble with this  If I don't turn around soon.

 

Peace

[savinggrace]

Hi Vetdoc,

 

I am so very sorry to hear this, but boy do I understand.  We are similar is so many ways.  I will be 62 this year and you are 69?  So that might be one reason we are struggling more than some others.  We metabolize slower and differently as we age.

 

I, too, feel like I am in full-blown withdrawal and I haven't changed my meds since May 28th and I didn't have surgery.  The ever-present torturous question is, "is this withdrawal in the middle of a hold?"  "are these healing symptoms as my brain remodels from the tapering I have done to date?" "is this ever going to stop?" "is this side effects from my other drugs making themselves more loudly heard now?"

 

I hear you...if you get the answer to any of these questions, would you please pass them along.  I am sleeping no more than one hour at a time, with electric shock feelings all through the night.  I am so fatigued I can't do much but lay on the couch or in bed.  I have no idea what to do next.  I can't eat, not because I don't have an appetite but because my GI system is shot.

 

As far as your family goes, I understand. I am not sure what I would do if I were you.  I can't tell you to try harder because I know how ludicrous that feels to hear.  You can only "fake it" so much.  The only person who knows that I am in withdrawal of any kind is my husband.  I have never trusted anyone to understand or to honor my wishes or not deem me just another addict.  I will go to my grave, hopefully, with only my doctors and my husband knowing about this horrible dependence/withdrawal that I have suffered with for 2 decades.  They just think I'm sick and/or crazy.  I prefer that over them judging me, w/o fully taking the time to understand how this happens to millions of people.  Food addictions, even alcohol addictions seem to be more understood and accepted, but prescription drugs?  ADDICTION...just go to re-hab and you'll get over it!

 

I am praying for you Vetdoc.  No matter what you choose to do, I understand.  Sometimes we have to do what doesn't feel at all right because it's our only choice.

 

Grace

[savinggrace]

One more thing, Vetdoc.  If you read my post on my thread from July 14th, you might understand what I am thinking....

 

I have tapered about 30% of my total load from my highest load.  Maybe, just maybe my brain is indeed in full withdrawal now.  It doesn't know when I am going to be done...it is giving me signals now to slow down and let it do its healing work.  Maybe, dreadful as it is, I can't go any further because my load was so toxic a 30% reduction in total load is requiring a lot of healing to proceed.  Maybe this applies to you...or to neither of us...who knows?

 

Grace

[vetdoc]

Hi

 

I'm not doing well as I have posted recently since my surgery on June 1 severe anxiety and hoplessness.  I went to my Pdoc with my family and he wanted me to updose my wellbutrin to see if it could help. 

 

Since my family is struggling with my situation I  reluctantly agreed to try a few days updose.  I updosed to 250mg SR daily  from my regular dose of 167mg daily.   I tried this for 2 days and I got pretty sick,  I was severely activated, my head had pressure, and I just felt poorly.  I dropped the dose down to 200mg for 2 more days but still felt poorly.  I told my PDoc I could not stay on the higher doses any longer.  I am now back down to the 167 mg dose I have been on for the past 5 months. 

 

I don't know how much destabilization I have done by doing this.  I was feeling so poorly even before I updosed  so I can;t tell what this updosing did to me.  I'm feeling so miserable even back down at 167mg.  My head still feels major pressure, so unclear, and my anxiety is still through the roof.  I don't know if I am feeling withdrawal,  on top of how badly I was feeling  before I updosed?. 

 

It seems that trying to go back up on the Wellbutrin was a disaster for me.  I'm totally lost right now.  I was so desperate I agreed to this, hoping it might pull me out of this spiral I'm in.  I don't know why my Pdoc thought the updose would give me relief.  He said Wellbutrin worked for me before so it should work again at therapeutic levels.

 

  It didn't work out for me at all, hopefully didn't set me way back, since Im already sick.  Is it likely to cause me withdrawals for the 4-5 days I was updosed?

 

 

Thanks

[vetdoc]

Checking in

 

I am in deep crisis and Wellness on benzo board suggested I post again on the main board for more advice.

 

I have never felt like this in all my life with or without meds. I'm scared I won't pull out of this this time.  It's different then my withdrawal symptoms I have felt over the past several years.

 

  I have been holding on all my meds for past 5 months  so I thought I would be stable until this crisis. When I look back at my symptoms diary it does appear I started to have anxiety and depression symptoms as I decreased the wellbutrin  from 300mg to 150mg. It feels like a recurrence of my original symptoms now, when I was put on the meds for chronic long term depression and anxiety.  I have a history in my family of mental illness on my mother and fathers side.  So I suppose I may have a genetic predisposition for clinical depression.    Maybe I am one of the people that needs some type of med to live" normally"   I suppose those type of people exist?  I'm so confused.

 

I am already a thin person I have lost 13 lbs over the past 6 weeks, ,  I don't have an appetite even trying to force myself to eat.  I'm starting to be concerned for my physical as well as my mental health.

 

My situation is this at this time.  My wife and other members of my family insisted they go with me to my P doc to discuss this crisis.  They said that I am one step from being hospitalized because I am basically fading away in front of their eyes and something immediate has to happen.  

The meeting with the P Doc was painful for me .  He is a good guy as far as trying to understand my situation and has supported my tapering all along, even if he thought it was not in my best interest.  

 

My family talked about my situation to him and where they stand at this time and about doing something to possibly turn this around.  They told him that they have have considered hospitalizing me if I continue to not eat and don't show some signs of improvement.  He sympathized with me, because he knows what  being hospitalized would mean to me  and he also knows how I feel about  increasing my  meds . 

 

He asked if I would please try updosing the wellbutrin and see what happens.  I posted above that 2 days on higher dose I felt pretty miserable so after trying a lower dose I dropped back to my dose I have been on for 5 months 167mg.  My Pdoc said  2 days may not have been enough give  enough time  at the higher dose to really see if it might of helped.  He said it can take 4-5 days or longer for blood levels to reach the proper dose level for the brain to react to it. 

 

My Pdoc asked me would I considert taking some Valium, just for 5 days to see if it helped pull me out of the anxiety spiral I'm in and possibly help to relieve some symptoms if I tried to updose the Wellbutrin again. He knows I tapered down  Valium for over a year or more. 

 

I have been on 2 mgs of Valium since Jan 2015.  My family (wife , brothers, sisters etc) are now begging almost insisting I try this, to see if it helps me since the DR prescribe it.  They are letting me sit with it for a few days but,in the end won't take no for an answer.    I can;t even argue or explain it anymore to them I'm totally exhausted and without hope.

 

I know this goes against all that I and all on the this site have been working towards for many years, getting off the meds.  I also know I cannot go on like this and wind up into a hospital again like I did 5 years ago.  This time I fear I would never get out and they would just experiment with putting me on meds there anyway   I just can't bear the thought of that, it just can't happen to me again at my age.   I'm so desperate now it scares me.

 

I'm asking if I went on an increase dose of the benzo for 5 days would I be able to just drop back down to my 2mg dose after the 5 days without getting withdrawls form updosing the valium.   I have been on the 2 mg dose for 1.5 years so I'm stabilized on that dose. . Also what if I just  tried  taking an increase dose of the benzo every other day on a as needed basis for 5 days, to help with he wellbutrin updose would it be less likely to cause a problem?

 

Please help me with make the best decison, so I can avoid being back in the hospital. 

 

I'm not asking you to condone what I may have to do, but, I just need your expert opinions, since I must find relief from this tortuous pain at this critical time. . 

Otherwise I'm afraid my family will make the choice, to hospitalize me,  which would kill me. The situation is now at an all time crisis for me.  I'm feeling so hopeless with no way out, I don't know how I got to this point. after all these years. 

 

Part of me would rather stay on some meds if I can get back to leading  some type of normal life.  I can't live like this way as a dysfunctional person at my age.  I need to enjoy my family and have a life for whatever time I have left on this earth.  I'm at a crossroads which I must try and make a decision without knowing the exact outcome.   Please me your guidance here I can't do this alone.

 

Thanks

[scallywag]

vetdoc, I wish I knew what to say or suggest that would help you with this decision. I'll make sure the other moderators are aware of your question.