Martin Stopped taking venlafaxine after having tapered to 9 mg.

[Martin]

Took about 4.5 mg fluoxetine today, much less anxiety and worry also feeling generally a whole lot better. I've actually been enjoying my day, which is a first in a very long time - here's hoping this extends to my sleep, but i suspect it does... still having tremors and diarrhea, but the diarrhea atleast also seem to be less powerful. Why I wasnt allowed to take a lower dose from the get go I have no clue of... From my experiences with fluoxetine I have to wonder why anyone uses this drug. I found venlafaxine to be less toxic to my well being, and that stuff is really bad, atleast the withdrawal symptoms are. 

 

Here's hoping withdrawal symptoms dont catch up with me.

 

In 6 days I have a conversation with my real psychiatrist and primary caregiver. I'll keep you guys updated on how that goes.

[mammaP]

Glad you are feeling better Martin, I hope your sleep improves for you too. 

[Hudgens]

It's common for people in withdrawal from antidepressants to suddenly find they can't tolerate all sorts of things they had no trouble with in the past. I used to take all kinds of vitamins and supplements before starting my Effexor taper, but discovered about half the way through it that I couldn't tolerate any of them anymore. I tried Vitamin D and Fish Oil, for example, both made me feel awful agitation. I ended up staying away from everything with the exception of Tylenol or Advil. Even too much exercise would bring on withdrawal symptoms, although I'm alright with that now.

 

It doesn't help that Drs are such idiots when it comes to antidepressants.

 

I hope you are young so that when you get through this you'll have most of your life in front of you, I'm 57 (started tapering 4 years ago) and only just got to the post tapering stage, I might be 60 before I've completely put this whole wonderful experience behind me. It's probably easier to get through this when you're young, but I'm finding out that even old people can do it.  You can't be in a rush, though. People who are in a rush in this situation always end up rushing into a lot of unnecessary suffering. There's no way through this kind of thing without suffering, the trick then being to not ADD to that suffering.   

[Martin]

So yesterday It took me 4 hours to fall asleep, and the thing that managed to make me sleepy enough was schizandra. I've been taking schizandra a lot when I was on higher dosages of venlafaxine for sleep and anxiety mitigation. Tremor all night on fluoxetine 4.5 miligrams - there's something very troublesome going on with that fluoxetine. - I cannot wait to talk to my psychiatrist in 5 days. 

 

Hudgens, I get what you're saying on paper, but on a visceral level I just wanna be somewhat functional. This having to stay at my moms home because I'm panicking in the middle of the night is not a way to live. Im ok with some suffering, but when I start bringing suffering to other people that are close to me, thats where I have to draw the line. 

[Petunia]

Hi Martin,

I'm glad you are feeling better on a lower dose of prozac, it may take a while for you to stabilize, if I were you I would give it a few weeks before you decide, or make any more changes, it takes about 4 days for a change in dose to register in your system.

 

Please would you update your signature with your new prozac dose and adding dates to your recent history would make it easier to understand when you made changes.

 

Do let us know how your Pdoc appointment goes.

[Martin]

Hi Martin,

I'm glad you are feeling better on a lower dose of prozac, it may take a while for you to stabilize, if I were you I would give it a few weeks before you decide, or make any more changes, it takes about 4 days for a change in dose to register in your system.

 

I question whether it is stabalization that is the issue or if its the fluoxetine that is just way too stimulating. I've been reading up on the issue and it seems very likely that fluoxetine just is very bad for someone who has the symptoms that I have... My main issue has always been insomnia and anxiety, and these things are made worse by prozac. I read in your signature that you took it for 5 days where you had rage and were suicidal so you must have some experience with this. 

 

I experienced a whole lot of withdrawal symptoms on venlafaxine, and they weren't like this. 

 

just gonna quote this article http://www.becomehealthynow.com/mira2_front/printpage.php?id=1124

 

"The adverse effects of Prozac can be traced to the drug's effect on brain chemistry. As Peter R. Breggin, M.D., explains in Talking Back to Prozac: What Doctors Aren't Telling You About Today's Most Controversial Drug, Prozac acts as a stimulant to the nervous system.⁶ Therefore, it can produce side effects that mimic those of amphetamines and are exaggerations of the desired effects of Prozac in relieving depression.

According to Dr. Breggin, the FDA psychiatrist who wrote the agency's safety review of Prozac stated that the drug's effects--including nausea, insomnia and nervousness--resembled the profile of a stimulant drug, rather than a sedative.⁷ Dr. Breggin adds that nearly all of the side effects of Prozac listed in thePhysician's Desk Reference "fit into the stimulant profile." Among others, these stimulant symptoms include headaches, nervousness, insomnia, anxiety, agitation, tremors, weight loss, nausea, diarrhea, mouth dryness, anorexia and excessive sweating.^8"

 

Of those side effects I've experienced in various degrees, nervousness, insomnia, anxiety, tremors(crazy amounts of tremors) agitation, weight loss, diarhea, dry mouth, sweating.

and this article, http://www.sntp.net/prozac/breggin_prozac_1.htm

 

:"There are still other ways of understanding how Prozac could produce both murderous and suicidal behavior. Prozac often affects individuals as if they are taking stimulants, such as amphetamine, cocaine, or PCP. When testing a drug for amphetaminelike or stimulant qualities In animal research, the two main criteria are an energizing effect and an appetite suppression effect - and Prozac has both. Indeed, this stimulant quality may be the main reason for Prozac's popularity."

 

Not only that, but on various forums on depression and such, the same thing is being said. - Prozac is bad for anxiety, and it has a bad effect on insomnia - unless you're depressed that is, then it is ok.

[Martin]

I've been managing to fall asleep without too many problems besides too rapid heartbeat (damn you fluoxetine damn you) by taking double dosage of melatonin, that means 4 mg, which is great because without sleep then I'd really be losing myself. I use schizandra to potentiate the sedative effects of the melatonin. 

 

3.5 days to go till I see my main psychiatrist. 

 

I still have stomach issues and anxiety though I feel a bit more relaxed today, maybe its because the low dosage of fluoxetine is starting to take effect. Still having consistent trembling which I find severely disturbing. 

[LoveandLight]

Is it an internal tremour or visible? I have the internal..very disturbing.

[Martin]

Is it an internal tremour or visible? I have the internal..very disturbing.

 

Its both... I look and feel like someone who's been drinking 1 cup of death wish coffe every third hour of every day since I started the prozac. 

 

Its the worst when i need to sleep because feeling that trembling in my body whilst sleeping makes it harder to fall asleep, gives me the fear that if I close my eyes, i might not wake up which melatonin has helped a great deal with. 

[Martin]

Well, I just took 4.7 mg of venlafaxine because I was in the middle of a panic attack. Going to mental hospital in an hour or so and venting... New goal is to stabalize on venlafaxine, and then make a switch in a year or something to citalopram and if it is possible withdraw from that then do so or stay at a relatively low dosage so I dont have withdrawal symptoms. Ever since I started on prozac my generalized anxiety disorder have been going completely haywire. Every second I breathe I get assaulted by my own brain about various crazy things like that I'll die soon or hundreds of different things and I can feel my sanity slowly getting destroyed under the burden of such a continuous assault - and I am making that strain felt on my family, and there's nothing I can really do to make it stop. 

[Martin]

So, have just been at the emergency psychiatric place, and they tell me to stop taking prozac and not take any antidepressants untill 3 days when I have to talk to my psychiatrist. Not sure what I'll do untill then. 

[mammaP]

Personally I think it would not be a very good idea to stop the venlafaxine Martin,  even just 3 days can have 

awful withdrawals in my experience. I'm sorry the prozac switch didn't work for you, it isn't right for everyone. If you still

want to taper the venlafaxine it might be best to stick with it rather than switching to something else

after this experience. I've tapered down by counting beads and have managed quite well really. It is a 

pain counting those beads but do-able. 

[Martin]

I'm seriously considering taking 37.5 mg of venlafaxine and taking a break from tapering for a year. After all of this I'm not sure I can manage without antidepressants honestly. I dont want to take very much and the doctor and psychiatrist told me not to take lower than 37.5 mg. - atleast while I was taking that, I was somewhat functional. 

 

Pros, cons...?

 

They also told me that I should probably wait till I see my main psychiatrist in 3 days. So that would be 3 days without taking anything at all - I dont personally like the sound of that.

[Altostrata]

Do you have any Effexor capsules left, Martin?

 

Few psychiatrists understand or even recognize withdrawal symptoms. Almost always, they think it's a "relapse."

 

If you have any Effexor XR capsules left, you might take 18mg, the point at which you were last stable, and see if that helps.

[Martin]

Greetings Altostrata,

 

thank you for taking an interest.

 

I'm currently taking 37.5 mg of venlafaxine. I spoke with my primary psychiatrist and he believes that I'm lacking certain liver enzymes which means that my body has a hard time with the fluoxetine... He tells me to take a blood test to test my liver enzymes to figure out if this is the case.

 

I'm going to wait a year and see how I feel and if I need to withdraw. At this point there's been too much anxiety, GAD, panic, and insomnia for me to have confidence that I can withdraw. I have to be much more careful if I choose to withdraw, making sure I get my primary caregiver involved every step of the way, something which I hadnt done. 

 

As far as I see it, there's two possibilities as to why I'm still having and had such a powerful adverse reaction. From reading on the internet there are a few people who have had my kind of reaction to prozac. Trembling, anxiety, tinnitus, diarrhea, rapid heart rate and insomnia. It is either because I metabolise prozac very slowly which means that I accumulated too high a dosage of prozac due to the slow elimination half life, causing serotonin toxicity which basically fits the profile of the side effects that I experienced.

 

Or for whatever reason I simply had a very adverse reaction to prozac. It has something to do with the prozac because the moment I started taking that I was on edge and feeling very bad, worse even than withdrawal from venlafaxine.

 

I've calculated that 20-30 days and the prozac will be out of the system, and another 20-80 days for the norfluoxetine to be completely out of the system, so now I'm just waiting untill those days are over.

 

I'm feeling a lot better now. Still on edge but the side effects from the fluoxetine are far from as severe as they were when I took the 10 mg. Where I trembled all over and consistently I'm only shivering in my mouth (chattering teeth). The diarrhea has become minor stomach discomfort. My heartrate is okay, tinnitus is worse, anxiety has become nervousness, and insomnia has become minor insomnia. It has been 11 days since I last took fluoxetine. 

[Altostrata]

It sounds like reinstatement is working.

 

When you do decide to taper, you'll want to go off Effexor more slowly than before.

[Martin]

Greetings, it has been what... 4 months since I last posted on here...? I'm gradually coming to the realization that it was still withdrawal, just as you said Alto. This realization has been quite intruiging but also quite scary! I had a good period of time for 2 weeks ago but now I'm starting to feel bad again, with increased tremors, anxiety, insomnia, diarrhea, and some small panic like sensations. I kept wondering - how I'm starting to feel bad again. The other thing that made me wonder is that they tested my liver and apparently I have a normally functioning liver so I should have processed the fluoxetine correctly, that means that fluoxetine is officially not in my blood anymore (thank god for that) 

 

The only thing that makes sense seems to be protracted withdrawal syndrome. I'm managing by drinking litres of chamomile tea - that seems to calm the tremors, the stomach, and helps me fall asleep. Honestly chamomile has been a godsend - there hasn't been much else that has been able to help during this time. 

 

I am unable to take caffeine, even very very small amounts of caffeine givers me increased withdrawal symptoms which is a very good tell that I'm in withdrawal, since many people on here cannot tolerate caffeine either. 

 

I'm still sticking to the 37.5 mg of venlafaxine, I'm guessing it will take a year or so to become somewhat stable from what I've read on here...

 

Oddly enough, I've also started developing nightmares from which I will wake up screaming. 

 

Does these things sound accurate from what you've experienced with protacted withdrawal syndrome or is there some other thing I haven't considered...? 

[Altostrata]

Yes, it sounds very much like withdrawal syndrome.

 

It could be you are now sensitive to some foods. You might wish to try a very bland diet for a while to see if that helps.

[Martin]

Yes, it sounds very much like withdrawal syndrome.

 

It could be you are now sensitive to some foods. You might wish to try a very bland diet for a while to see if that helps.

 

I eat nothing but rye bread, cheese, fibre crispbread, chicken, ham and milk - and chamomile. Does that count...?

[Altostrata]

That is a very strange diet. It's possible you're sensitive to dairy foods now.

 

See the Diet and Digestion section here http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/606-important-topics-about-tests-supplements-treatments-diet/

[Martin]

That is a very strange diet. It's possible you're sensitive to dairy foods now.

 

 

Strange is a very good description of myself. Thanks for the heads up, I'll try not touching dairy for a time and see if it has any positive effects on withdrawal.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

I put the drugs you are taking into the drugs interactions checker and I hope you are aware that there are interactions between venlafaxine, seroquel and pregabalin which might explain symptoms. I did not look back through your thread, this may have already been done.

 

You are throwing a huge dose of chamomile into the mix and you should be aware that just because it is a plant it does not mean there are not side effects, especially with long term high intake. I believe you are drinking NINE liters, not NINE THOUSAND liters daily. (Normally that high a fluid intake is not life sustaining.) You have not factored in the high fluid intake is no doubt causing problems for your system itself: you are getting your blood electrolytes out of balance because too much fluid is as bad as too little.

 

Here's what a site says about it:

 

 

What are the risks of taking chamomile?

• Side effects. Most experts say chamomile is safe. It can cause drowsiness and, in large doses, vomiting. It also has the potential to trigger allergic reactions in people who are allergic to related plants in the daisy family, although such reactions are very rare. Avoid it if you are allergic to these plants: chamomile, celery, ragweed, daisies, marigolds, or chrysanthemums. Skin creams with chamomile can cause allergic eczema and irritate the eyes. The effects of long-term chamomile use aren't known.
• Risks. Check with your doctor before using chamomile if you have any health problems. Chamomile contains a small amount of coumarin, which may have very mild blood thinning effects, but usually just in high doses for long periods of time. Stop using chamomile two weeks before surgery due to concerns about its possible interactions with anesthetic drugs.
• Interactions. If you take any drugs regularly, talk to your doctor before you start using chamomile supplements. They could interact with sedatives, blood thinners, antiplatelet drugs, aspirin, NSAID painkillers like ibuprofen and naproxen, and other drugs. Chamomile could also interact with supplements like ginkgo biloba, garlic, saw palmetto, St. Johns wort, and valerian.

 

There is no cure for withdrawal syndrome and many of us, when we went through it, had to do with little sleep because it produces a brutal insomnia. I fear you are in for some kind of trouble artificially inducing sleep with such high doses of chamomile (and adding melatonin, which is a hormone, into the mix). But your mileage may vary, of course. Be interesting to see how it turns out for you.

 

Many people try many different supplements to 'help' things along and find they just make things worse in the end. I always keep Johnson's story in the back of my mind whenever I hear people relying on supplements. They are not innocuous. Early on in wd I had found a site that clearly stated not to drink more than so many cups of chamomile tea a day (was it 4?) and I eventually stopped drinking it because it was causing problems with my stomach.

[Martin]

More like 1-2 litres of chamomile, depending on the level of anxiety I experience. The over 9000 thing is a silly internet meme that I shouldn't have in my signature but did because I'm a silly goof, it wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

 

I am slowly becoming more and more aware of how dire a situation protracted withdrawal is. I was woefully unprepared for how badly my nervous system would start functioning. I've gained waaay too much weight due to too high cortisol. I've taken lyrica, venlafaxine, and seroquel for many years and am more aware of the side effects of these drugs than most people on earth I would presume. I can barely function due to the side effects of these drugs but without a high dosage of lyrica, I'm suffering panic attacks induced from withdrawal pretty much constantly and would probably get close to suicide risk since I wouldn't be able to take it, or be forced on benzodiazepines eventually. I would think that chamomile is the better alternative in this case.

 

Be aware that there's a distinct difference from my story and many other's stories on here... I -firmly- believe that the drugs I take-took, make me manage better because before I started taking them I could not function at all due to consistent panic disorder and social withdrawal that is not happening on the same scale now as it did then. I come from a family with deep seated mental illnesses, generalized anxiety and schizophrenia, there's a hugely genetic component to these illnesses and there are very few things that can be done to help someone with severe anxiety on my scale or schizoprenia. I'm not saying that the pharmaceutical industry is being ethical by failing to grasp the dire nature of withdrawal syndrome even I am still aware of how dangerous stuff like withdrawal syndrome is, you can read my story on here and come to the conclusion that I - and many of my family members have suffered much because of it - I'd be foolish not to realise how troublesome withdrawal syndrome is - but I dont believe that drugs and or supplements or chamomile are inherently bad for someone such as myself. 

 

Regardless you are quite right that I need to be careful, and these past few months that has been something that I've had to slowly realise. I have learned that I need to continue taking my venlafaxine, and not take any stimulants of any kind untill I am stable again.

 

I'm also taking waaaay waaaay waaaay too much pregabalin, which is also a big factor in me gaining weight, but until my nervous system has calmed down to the point that I can actually get a tiny bit of sleep - I dare not change it for reasons stated before.

 

Regardless you are asking some very potent and needed questions and I thank you and everyone on this site for their concern since there really really really is a severe lack in the understanding of protacted withdrawal syndrome which is something that keeps me up at night and gives me nightmares simply to think about - I may need to see a psychologist soon simply because this whole experience has been waaay too trying on my psyche .

[Martin]

That is a very strange diet. It's possible you're sensitive to dairy foods now.

 

See the Diet and Digestion section here http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/606-important-topics-about-tests-supplements-treatments-diet/

 

I'm quite curious suddenly, why the sensitivity to dairy...? is it because of the vitamin b in milk for instance...? Should I be careful with how much vitamin b i get from foods...?

[Altostrata]

It's because dairy requires a particular set of enzymes to be digested and your gut may not be making them like they used to.

 

Your diet is also remarkable for its complete lack of vegetables and fruits.

[Martin]

Yeah I have autistic eating habits. Eat the same stuff everyday and never get tired of it. I do take vitamin pills though - I also take vitamin d pills. Guess I should update signature to be less silly too. 

[Martin]

Hey guys - It's been months since I last posted on here. I've been doing the window wavey thing for a while now. Supplementing with lemon balm and chamomile if it's been intolerable. The last month was so good that I figured I might have gone and managed to stabilize, but alas a week ago I started having symptoms - chaotic awakenings in the morning with uncontrollable dreadful thoughts and the like. Powerful anxiety when I'm about to go to bed and such, and today, leg pain and a general sense of dread. Considering that I was incapable of managing anything at all before reinstatement - I'd say it's been a partial success, but, I wonder if it is normal for it to be taking so long...? 7 months seem crazy to me, although if it can take 9 years to get normal even without reinstatement then 7 months is nothing huh?

 

In general I'd say that I'm doing well though, I cant help but question the entire medical profession now that I've had this experience - and that scares me quite a bit. I feel so alone with these thoughts about the medical profession though because whenever I state that I think the problem is a destabilized nervous system, people might ask - well what does your psychiatrist say? In which case I have to say that my psychiatrist believes it to be simply stress. I'm in a governmental system which needs to know and understand what I'm going through - but I find it difficult to explain what I'm going through. 

 

Besides that I'm currently dieting and exercising... I've lost 5 kilos since last. Things are looking up, but I find the pace too slow. 

 

I guess what I'm really asking here is, will I ever stabalize? will I ever go back to normal? Is that even possible or should I just be happy that things have gone as well as they have...? 

[Petunia]

Hi Martin,

Thanks for updating. I'm sorry you are having a wave of increased symptoms after making some progress towards stabilization, but this can happen sometimes. Can you think of anything which changed or may have caused increased stress over the last few weeks?

 

I'm sure things will settle down again soon. Perhaps reading through this again will put your mind at rest:

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

[Martin]

 Can you think of anything which changed or may have caused increased stress over the last few weeks?

 

 

Sadly I can. I got into a pretty vicious argument with a very close friend, which was very emotionally taxing and stressful for me. 

 

The fact that I'm writing in this place is a sign of progress though. 6-7 months ago I could barely stay in this place without losing my mind. Also I'm very appreciative for this place - without you guys, I wouldnt have known what was going on. Although I was slow to catch on to what was going on - I eventually came around to the understanding that it was protracted withdrawal syndrome...

 

The odd thing here is... My psychiatrist says that he believes it to be cortisol, and nervous system imbalance caused by stress - which is pretty much what you guys were saying - the main difference is that he believes the trigger to be my condition, whereas you guys believe it to be withdrawal. I've been told that exercise is the main solution to this issue - not hard exercise, but just long walks which apparently should trigger less cortisol. 

 

Edit: just donated 15 dollars to show my appreciation. It's about all I can give. Hope it helps!