Sauna?

[oskcajga]

Infrared radiation = "heat", as it's known to most of us.  In-fared sauna = heat sauna.

 

Just for the record, there's not much difference between a normal incandescent light bulb and an "infared" light bulb - just that the "infared" light bulb is designed to omit more energy in the form of IR rather than visible light.  That's it.  No magical curative properties, just old fashioned heat.

 

If you want to try out whether or not "heat" will help WD, I may recommend just sitting in your bathroom with the shower turned on high, and wait until the temperature increases to a just tolerable level (this is actually not infrared heat, it's convective heat, but the end result is the same).  Alternatively, one could start up a fire and sit in front of it and wait until they're sufficiently hot.  My point is this:  there's a lot less expensive ways to increase your skin and core body temperatures than buying light bulbs that are nothing more than heating devices.

 

Other than that, I can't add anything that Jan carrol and MammaP haven't already said.

[JanCarol]

Oh yeah.  Candida and inflammation were other claims that the infrared sauna is supposed to "clear."

 

Infrared is LIGHT and HEAT.  There are a number of treatments for pain here, just based on LED light therapy.  I don't know anything about it - but there's more to it than just heat.  It is a wavelength, near, medium and far.  More than just heat, methinks.  But what do I know?

 

I do know that the infrared sauna will cause more sweat with less heat than a traditional "hot rocks" sauna.  There is a difference you can feel - it's not just a "hot box you sit in," there is more to it than just heat.  Maybe less true with my little lamp, but the infrared saunas are quite different.  I'd say, "don't knock it 'till you've tried it."  (or, I say, please let me believe in my rainbow unicorn fairies?  I like them!)

 

UV is "just a wavelength" too - and it can get us to produce vitamin D - or cause skin cancers.  Not just warmth from the sun.

[oskcajga]

Jancarrol is correct, it IS more than just heat, but that's talking about physics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared) - when it comes to human physiology, however, IR is little more than a source of heat.

 

Here's an article from Mayo Clinic that basically confirms just a different way to heat the human body (one can also research infared heating on wikipedia -

 

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/expert-answers/infrared-sauna/faq-20057954

 

 

Some abstracts from scientific articles that have relatively underwhelming (i.e., limited at best) evidence of health benefits (short term mostly, or subjective) from IR sauna:

 

http://www.cfp.ca/content/55/7/691.short

 

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10067-008-0977-y

 

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2009.0358

 

 

This article here demonstrates the efficacy of SAUNA (not just IR) for health benefits, and my guess is that an ordinary sauna is less expensive than a fancy IR sauna (maybe someone here can confirm this):

 

http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/21951023

 

 

My take from all this is that HEAT THERAPY is useful - it can be either normal sauna or IR sauna - but there is definitely evidence that HEAT THERAPY can be beneficial for a large number of ailments.

 

Here's a bunch of articles on the benefits (or at least studies carried out) on Sauna therapy:

 

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=sauna+therapy&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C39&as_sdtp=

[freespirit]

I am surprised by people on here still being so reliant on external research for answers. In my mind, research is as corrupt as the medical system. I searched for the article I read recently, but can't find it. It was a survey of scientists, where most admitted they have lied in their course of research. In addition, it should be obvious by reading all the different reactions people on this site have to the exact thing...well, we aren't all the same. And we aren't all the same all the time either.

 

For awhile, I was using the infrared sauna at the swimming pool. For me, all heat isn't the same. I couldn't for example, tolerate even a few minutes in the steam room---external heat. And while the Jacuzzi there is sometimes helpful, at other times, my reaction was the same as the steam. In the infrared sauna, I didn't feel overheated and it was helpful in reducing muscle and joint pain for a time. The benches are very uncomfortable though...and I find there are times where it is just too difficult being in such close quarters with strangers. I suspect if I had one at home, it would prove more helpful. 

 

Gia is very thorough in her own research. I'm afraid I'm not quite as disciplined as she is. Still, I consider I'm doing my own research and my results are what matters, not what may or may not ever be posted in a medical journal. For obvious reasons (money, greed), there will never be the kind of research on alternative things that are on drugs. That doesn't mean that nothing else works. It just means that these alternatives do not have at their disposal, the kind of funding that pharmaceuticals do.

 

If you want to rely solely on external research, that's up to you. However, I find it detrimental having people deny my experience, because research says it isn't so, or there's no external evidence. That's exactly the same kind of mindset that most docs have..and the kind of thinking that got many of us in this mess in the first place. When JC says that she gets benefit from using the infrared bulb, that is evidence. Does it necessarily mean the exact same thing would happen for me? Nope...because we are all different, with unique bodies, minds, histories, etc.

[starburst]

I actually find the sauna quite therapeutic. I don't normally like extremes in temperature but I use my time in there to meditate and I like to picture myself excreting all the bad toxins from drugs with the help of the heat and sweating.  

 

I can understand why some people wouldn't like it, it is not what I would call a 'pleasant' experience but I think how you view something helps in whether or not you get a benefit from it. 

[JanCarol]

I did discuss this with a health practitioner who reminded me that not all heat is the same.  For one thing, a "hot pack" would not be possible to use for someone in chronic pain who could not be touched - while an infrared sauna would fit the bill.

 

I do know that there is a qualitative difference between a hot-rock traditional sauna, and the infrared one.  

 

Thank you Free for:  

 

 

I am surprised by people on here still being so reliant on external research for answers. In my mind, research is as corrupt as the medical system. I searched for the article I read recently, but can't find it. It was a survey of scientists, where most admitted they have lied in their course of research. In addition, it should be obvious by reading all the different reactions people on this site have to the exact thing...well, we aren't all the same. And we aren't all the same all the time either.

 

Sitting in an infrared sauna is quite different from searching all over the internet for sources to debunk the benefits of it.  It also occurs to me:  is not the body subject to the laws of physics?  If not, it is a surprise to me.

 

I recommend trying it, if you can, and see if it helps.  If it doesn't, like Free said, it is not for you.  I find it to be soothing, and like to do it before a massage (not possible yet in my neighborhood).  I also had an infrared treatment for pain on my knee and hand (this was near infrared - in a wand - that the practitioner moves over your skin, like an ultrasound wand, only it is infrared.

 

The practitioner I discussed it with used to own a "pod" in her practice with far infrared heat elements - like a tanning bed (with your head outside, of course), and it also had magnetic and vibration and it was a hot tub too?  I've tried to understand when she explains it to me - but she says it was awesome and she wished she'd never sold it.

 

It's the same with magnetic therapy.  Some people swear by it.  I can find a million articles debunking it - but there's this big thing called "placebo effect" that we wholly don't understand.

 

I will say this: it is not harmful, though it could be stimulating.  Far less harmful than many supplements and other possible "things to try."  Its main drawback is it is expensive (about a dollar a minute to buy a session, or a small fortune to put one in your home).  I think, for example, it is less dangerous than hyperbaric oxygen treatment. 

 

How many of us have a few thousand dollars laying around to buy one?  Much of this discussion is rhetorical.  Ah, if only I could buy that . . . (Porsche, infrared sauna, whizz bang redwood hot tub, etc.)

[freespirit]

I actually find the sauna quite therapeutic. I don't normally like extremes in temperature but I use my time in there to meditate and I like to picture myself excreting all the bad toxins from drugs with the help of the heat and sweating.  

 

I can understand why some people wouldn't like it, it is not what I would call a 'pleasant' experience but I think how you view something helps in whether or not you get a benefit from it. 

 

I think this demonstrates what I was saying about how different we all are.....if it were ever quiet for more than a second or 2, I'd probably consider meditating too. But when going to the one at the pool, there is literally always someone talking in there. While I don't need absolute quiet to meditate, I don't find a lot of benefit from trying to do it while a number of people are in conversation.

 

It also isn't necessarily a matter if you like it or not. Extreme heat like extreme anything can set off a wave. If you are already overloaded from other things, sitting in a sauna could push things over the edge.

 

As someone with an abuse history, sitting in a room of half-naked, sweaty strangers can be very triggering. On some days, it's no problem..and on others, I can't even set foot in there. While there are things I can do to reduce being triggered at times...well, it takes up a lot of energy...energy that I feel can be put to better use for myself.

 

These days, I'm all about doing as many things as I can to make me happy or peaceful. I've done a lot of things through my life because I thought it was "good for me"..now, I think what's good for me is being kind to myself. I'd prefer spending time at what brings me joy.

 

I think without all the negative factors of using a sauna in a public place, I would find it more beneficial..ie. being able to use it in peace and quiet, at a time that worked best for me, and being able to get myself physically comfortable in there. It did provide some pain relief..but yes, JC, I don't have a few thousand lying around to put one in my house.

[oskcajga]

1.  In regards to my above posts, the point I was trying to make is that IR sauna is not some magical treatment - it's basically just heat (expensive heat to boot).  I understand that different types of heat affect people differently - but at the end of the day it's just a light bulb that is designed to put off more heat than a normal light bulb - there's no special electromagnetic frequencies in there that are going to somehow fix an enzyme deficiency or cure the nerves (for example).

 

2.  When it comes to alternative therapies like this, like MammaP was pointing out in her post - there's a lot of irrational hype that goes into it's marketing.  I'm just trying to dispel as much of this irrational hype as possible.

 

3.  I really do think heat therapy has possible benefits - it's been used for thousands of years so there's probably some merit to its use.  If an intolerably hot sauna with a bunch of half-naked strangers isn't your cup of tea (who's is it, really), then a private IR sauna might just be the thing for you.

 

4.  In regards to research, yes it can be dull, too objective and not particularly relevant for an individual person - but the point of research is to eliminate bias that is inevitable in a one-person case study (e.g., some person named Joan might do research on herself and publish these on her blog, but she's just one person and there's a tremendous amount of variation between people - so what works for her might be completely disastrous for others).  Research the most objective form of information available to us today, and for that reason it's preferable over single person anecdotes or one person case studies.  Everyone varies so much that one person's experience can differ dramatically from the next - so research tends to show a pattern or a trend in a greater number of people.  In all those graphs there's always outliers for people who experience MUCH different symptoms, etc than the others.

[JanCarol]

Free:  

 

 

using a sauna in a public place,

 

In my experience, the types of places providing infrared are more like day spas, not "social settings."  Sure, I've gotten in a hot-rocks sauna on holiday, and it's always awkward when hubby 'n' me are not the only one in the sauna.  But it's a quiet time, and people seem to be respectful.  Its more social in a hot tub, more quiet in the sauna.

 

The day spas are all private.  At the one where I tried IR, it was something like $15 for 15 minutes.  Private.  Just me in the box.  Nice and private. 

 

I agree - extreme anything can start a wave.  But it doesn't have to be extreme, if you only do a few minutes at a time, or use a lamp like I do.  It does feel purifying, cleaner than taking a bath, really.  I like to use the lamp after a bath to get completely "clean."  It's hard to explain unless you experience it.

 

Additionally, IR lamps have a long history here in Australia as use in inflammatory illness, like pain, arthritis, etc.  They stopped using it - not because people didn't benefit - but because the Aussie nanny state didn't like these hot, bare bulbs laying around with potential for burns and fires.  

[freespirit]

JC,

 

The lamp might be a better bet for me. I don't know of any private spas here doing infrared. Perhaps it hasn't caught on here in the same way. I did a bit of a search, but it seems there's little available in Canada in terms of a lamp. Sometimes bringing things in can be problematic..as in higher duties, or things that just aren't allowed here. I'll keep looking, because I'd like to give something else a try for my back. I prefer being able to relax at home anyway...and not have to get into my car and drive afterwards.

[freespirit]

4.  In regards to research, yes it can be dull, too objective and not particularly relevant for an individual person - but the point of research is to eliminate bias that is inevitable in a one-person case study (e.g., some person named Joan might do research on herself and publish these on her blog, but she's just one person and there's a tremendous amount of variation between people - so what works for her might be completely disastrous for others).  Research the most objective form of information available to us today, and for that reason it's preferable over single person anecdotes or one person case studies.  Everyone varies so much that one person's experience can differ dramatically from the next - so research tends to show a pattern or a trend in a greater number of people.  In all those graphs there's always outliers for people who experience MUCH different symptoms, etc than the others.

 

It might be a point of research to eliminate bias, but that doesn't mean that it happens. Drug companies research drugs, alternative people research alternative care. If you look deep enough, you'll find that a lot of research is done with bias.

 

For me, I'm not willing to remain dependent on a system that I believe is quite flawed. I've always had an overly sensitive nervous system, so I'm most likely represented in studies by people who had to leave, because the treatment made them too sick to continue. What is right for an average person has never really worked for me. It's more relevant to me at this point to read partly what is working or not for other people who, because of drugs, are sensitized in the ways I always have been. People who are taking small doses, going carefully, listening to their bodies. I do read things on both sides often, and then, I decide based on my own intuition.

 

There will never be studies that are done for someone like me. I don't see the study for someone with complex PTSD, sensitized nervous system, who has had a brain injury and is recovering from taking a number of meds. Not going to happen. And I'm not waiting around for one to happen. It's unlikely that most of the things I'm interested in trying will be studied much or at all. So, am I going to wait for the rest of my life for something that will probably never happen? No. I don't have to prove that what works for me will help anyone else. My goal is to heal, and that's where my focus lies.

 

If you want to wait around for the studies to prove that something works, that's totally up to you. But I don't think it's fair to assume that the rest of us are wanting or needing to wait around. I try things carefully, with a lot of consideration...not just willy nilly, because 1 person says it helps them. But I don't need to reject something, solely because there's not been any research on it.

[oskcajga]

 

4.  In regards to research, yes it can be dull, too objective and not particularly relevant for an individual person - but the point of research is to eliminate bias that is inevitable in a one-person case study (e.g., some person named Joan might do research on herself and publish these on her blog, but she's just one person and there's a tremendous amount of variation between people - so what works for her might be completely disastrous for others).  Research the most objective form of information available to us today, and for that reason it's preferable over single person anecdotes or one person case studies.  Everyone varies so much that one person's experience can differ dramatically from the next - so research tends to show a pattern or a trend in a greater number of people.  In all those graphs there's always outliers for people who experience MUCH different symptoms, etc than the others.

 

It might be a point of research to eliminate bias, but that doesn't mean that it happens. Drug companies research drugs, alternative people research alternative care. If you look deep enough, you'll find that a lot of research is done with bias.

 

For me, I'm not willing to remain dependent on a system that I believe is quite flawed. I've always had an overly sensitive nervous system, so I'm most likely represented in studies by people who had to leave, because the treatment made them too sick to continue. What is right for an average person has never really worked for me. It's more relevant to me at this point to read partly what is working or not for other people who, because of drugs, are sensitized in the ways I always have been. People who are taking small doses, going carefully, listening to their bodies. I do read things on both sides often, and then, I decide based on my own intuition.

 

There will never be studies that are done for someone like me. I don't see the study for someone with complex PTSD, sensitized nervous system, who has had a brain injury and is recovering from taking a number of meds. Not going to happen. And I'm not waiting around for one to happen. It's unlikely that most of the things I'm interested in trying will be studied much or at all. So, am I going to wait for the rest of my life for something that will probably never happen? No. I don't have to prove that what works for me will help anyone else. My goal is to heal, and that's where my focus lies.

 

If you want to wait around for the studies to prove that something works, that's totally up to you. But I don't think it's fair to assume that the rest of us are wanting or needing to wait around. I try things carefully, with a lot of consideration...not just willy nilly, because 1 person says it helps them. But I don't need to reject something, solely because there's not been any research on it.

 

 

I can't argue with your point - we did get into this position because we trusted too heavily in the "research" which was actually corrupt, and purchased by the big pharma industry.  I'll never again trust treatment based research again for as long as I live - and will always have a strong air of suspicion when it comes to supposed "legitimate" and "scientifically proven" medical treatments.  There's some areas of science where research is extremely important and highly trustworthy - but when it comes to health and wellbeing, it's just a completely different (i.e., a tremendous amount of industry corruption occurs).

 

At the very least, it's certainly eroded my faith in the peer-review process when it comes to biomedical research.

[Altostrata]

Research usually indicates frequency or probability of an effect or reaction. Such probability is hardly ever 100% -- there's plenty of room to see individual variation in the resulting minority.

[JanCarol]

Free - you can usually buy the bulbs at a lighting store - and the fixture to fit.  

 

Unless Canada is like Australia, then you can buy them - but have to have an electrician wire it up.  Are you 240 or 110V?  Because of the 240, the Nanny state (can't be burning yourselves), the only fitting I could find here was a vintage InfraPhil on ebay.  Hubby remembers his Mum having one in the 70's.  

 

We could build a thing, and have an electrician "finish it off" - but even finding the bulbs is difficult here.  It would be easy in the USA; not sure how Canada is, since it's kinda Commonwealth kin to Australia.

[ChessieCat]

Found this posted in a member's intro topic so thought I would post it here:

 

On 12/17/2018 at 11:03 PM, powerback said:

Hi virgo43 good to hear from you,i was doing some research on saunas [was thinking of using them myself],I was put off them because of the stress it can put on a persons body in withdrawl ,the guy I listened to said it can raise cortisol ,we need to be very careful when ill.all the research out is done on "normal" body's with these .if you take a break for a few weeks and judge if your symptoms are better ,something to think about .

He put is as "putting  the body into a stressful environment that its not used to  ",ie,the body isn't used to extreme temperature and very low air ,build up slowly so the body gets used to it . 

Take care . 

 

[Meimeiquest]

For several reasons, I got a simple far-infrared sauna (it's sold on Amazon). It off-gassed like crazy and it's does of weird, but I think it's one of the best things I've done (I think a lot of my problem is toxin accumulation).  It really improved my energy and pain and helps some with sleep.  Jillcarnahan.com is now selling a sauna at about half the cost, I'm not sure what light spectrum (s) it is.  There's also a near infrared version called Joovv.

[Junglechicken]

On 3/6/2012 at 7:49 PM, Romido said:

Now that I understand more about this withdrawal reaction produced by our nervous systems, I have started reading about things that calm the nervous system and I keep reading about saunas. Has anyone tried that yet, and if so, how were the results?

 

I am thinking of giving it a try but the last time I went to my gym I had a panic attack symptom while I was there, but this might make me feel up to giving it another try.

 

Have never tolerated saunas.

 

I'm a "dry" person. 

 

Skin drys up, I overheat, can't breath, have to drink gallons of water.

 

Have to get out of there!