☼ OffEFFexor: hello everybody

[OffEFFexor]

Hi:

 

I'm another refugee from the other web site that shut down today (December 17, 2014.)  On Prozac then Effexor XR for almost 20 years, quit cold turkey nine months ago, roller coaster since but doing OK and gradually getting better. 

 

I've lurked on this site for a couple of months, and what I have read and learned here has been invaluable.  When the first wave of prolonged symptoms hit me, I didn't know what was happening to me; stories and posts here helped me figure it out.

 

Here's my story.

 

I’m a 57yo man, who took Effexor XR 225 mg (venlafaxine) every day for a little over ten years. Previously I had taken Prozac for about eight years, and prior to that I had been on and off tricyclic ADs for over a decade to treat depression. I have been off Effexor since mid March of this year. Someone called these little capsules ‘the Devil’s Tic-Tacs’. Perfect description. I have had a rough time with prolonged withdrawal, up and down, but overall things are getting better.

I suffered a major depressive episode w/strong suicidal ideation during graduate school. (I am a doctor, my specialty is not psychiatry.) The meds helped the depression, and the side effects were tolerable. Nearly 20 years ago I recognized that I am an alcoholic, and I quit drinking. At that time a doctor started me on Prozac; I was pretty depressed as I headed for alcohol rehab.

The Prozac seemed to burn out after about four years, I was getting depressed on it. My depression seemed to have a seasonal aspect, more likely to hit in the winter. I tried discontinuing the Prozac cold turkey (under care of a psychiatrist), but after several months I felt depressed and he prescribed Effexor. I’d taken 225mg of the XR formulation for fourteen years.

Credit where due; my depression was severe at times, and Effexor was of great benefit for me. The entire decade and a half on the drug I was never suicidal, I never approached the depths of despair I had previously experienced with depression. Effexor clearly put a floor on my emotions, below which I never fell.

At the start of 2014, I though of weaning off the Effexor. I had been off alcohol for nearly two decades; I had drastically improved my diet about two years prior, I had been eating a healthy, natural diet. For years I had practiced Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to keep depression at bay. I had not been severely depressed for many years, I thought I would try weaning from Effexor.

From Jan to March 2014, I attempted three times to wean. I encountered symptoms each time I decreased the dose; I reinstated and tried again with a smaller decrease. This was under the care and supervision of my long-time psychiatrist. However, the withdrawal symptoms were quite annoying, and they did not subside when I returned to the full dose the final try (I had decreased by only 3.5% for three weeks.) I now know the weaning schedules I tried were way too fast, but I did not know this at the time.

It was the severity of symptoms that I experienced in these weaning attempts that convinced me that I wanted off this drug. Initially I did not feel very strongly about stopping the med. But the process of stopping had such powerful effects on me, that is what convinced me to commit to quitting the drug.

So, I decided to stop full. Cold-friggin’ turkey. I took Prozac as a bridge for eight days, but I stopped that because I thought it was making me nauseated, and the nausea stopped with stopping the Prozac. Look, I know now what a horrible idea this was, but I didn’t know then. And my doc didn’t know. I figured a few weeks of agony would be worth getting this stuff out of my system. I had no idea the risks involved with not doing a slow taper. I had no frigging idea. Big mistake.

For five days I was a wreck, but over the next several days, the WD symptoms subsided. Pretty steadily and rapidly. After a month, the symptoms were minimal, and frankly I felt great.

Over the next five months, I was fine. Better than I felt the last few years on the medication—a fuller range of emotion, a clearer mind. Only looking back did I realize that the last few years on Effexor I had generally experienced suppression of the upper range of emotions. My highs were lower. Much lower. I didn’t notice while I was on the drug, but within a few days off, despite the pain of acute withdrawal, I realized I had been missing those highs. Even with the heavy acute symptoms, within a few days I felt my brain working better off Effexor than during the last few years on the drug.

While on Effexor I never had any feeling that I had lost my ‘old self’. But within a few days after stopping I sensed that my ‘old self’ was returning. Only looking back did I realize how much my old self had faded in the last few years on Effexor. I thought I was just getting older, and losing some motivation and some of the sense of excitement of life. It is difficult to clearly describe, but within the first few weeks I felt a subtle but distinct change in attitude, a clear improvement in my mental and emotional functioning. Man, over the past spring and summer I felt better than I had in years, despite going through some difficult life stuff (a close cousin passed through an ugly terminal illness and death, and I suffered a big career disappointment.) After the acute withdrawal symptoms faded over the first four weeks CT, I felt really good. And I thought a few days of agony, a few weeks of discomfort was a fair price to pay to get Effexor out of my nervous system and my life.

Then, six months after the CT, it hit. Mid September of this year. First I felt a little depressed mood creeping in. Then, ringing in the ears and headache. Then, all kinds of stuff. Mood swings. Tearfulness and crying. Suicidal thoughts. Weird dreams. Depersonalization and derealization (DP/DR). Physical fatigue. Mental fog and fatigue. And rapid switching from one symptom to the next. I can wake up feeling pretty normal and it can last for 3-4 hours. Then, the predominant symptom of the day will start to kick in, maybe crying, maybe a feeling I’ll never be free of this stuff, maybe just really loud tinnitus, and last for a few hours. Then back to feeling pretty good, thinking clearly but with the headache persisting. Other days the worst part of the day will be the morning; some days I sleep 18 hours, other nights I can’t sleep more than two or three hours at a time. Like someone is spinning a wheel to see what symptom or which combo will hit me on a given day. This stuff has gone on for about three months, peaking maybe about a month ago, gradually getting better for a month, then two bad weeks, and the last three days a bit better.

I was well aware of, from reading online and talking with my shrink, the acute withdrawal syndrome of this stupid medication. I did not discover the long-term withdrawal syndrome until I was well into it this past fall, and this message board/community has been one of my best sources of information as well as support. My shrink is on the faculty of a major medical school, although his specialty is addiction/recovery, despite plenty of experience prescribing these drugs he was clueless about the acute and prolonged withdrawal syndromes. He sought advice about my acute withdrawal from his peers, and the lack of awareness is stupefying. Thank goodness my doc has an open mind and he is willing to admit out loud when he is wrong or when he doesn’t know something. I’m sure it helps that I am also a doctor, I don’t know how different it would be if I was a civilian, but I don’t mean to knock him because of his cluelessness.

So, that’s my story. Almost nine months since CT stop. It could’ve been worse. It is getting better. But man, this sucks.

Summary:
On and off several tricyclic ADs starting at age 25 (amitriptyline, imipramine, nortriptyline) for depression.
Quit alcohol and other drugs age 37; started Prozac, for about eight years.
Stopped Prozac for six months; started Effexor XR age 47.
Took Effexor XR 225mg for ten years
Now age 57, attempted weaning January 2014 three times, shortly returned to full dose due to withdrawal effects.
CT March 11, 2014, eight days of Prozac as a bridge. Five days of horrible WD symptoms, then gradually receded over three weeks.
Nearly six months doing very well, then WD symptoms/wave reappeared mid Sept. 2014
Dec. 2014 WD symptoms gradually decreasing as a three month long wave of symptoms subsides.

 

 

[Athena]

Hello there OffEff!

 

I am sure you will find here the same help and support that you had from the other site.

 

I nice "welcome" to you! And wish you a continued recovery.

 

Athena

[btdt]

Welcome I was on E too and quit cold turkey after a failed taper attempt. 

Your right it does suck.  I wish you well there are others here in the process of tapering but few have done the ct routine. From what I can see our ct timelines don't have much in common to the point your at now.  I firmly believe I was in poop out a good long time before I quit and had been drugged for years like you  7 years on Effexor. I crashed and burned 6 wks into ct... 

I am hoping things get better for you as time goes on.  I wish you peace. 

[Petunia]

Hi OffEFFexor,

Welcome from me too.  Thank you for sharing your story in as much detail as you did, in spite of the subject matter, I enjoyed reading it.  I'm sorry you found yourself hit with a delayed withdrawal after thinking you were out of the woods, that's what happened to me.  I had about 2 good months after tapering Lexapro too fast in 2010, then strange symptoms started to emerge and at the time, because I had been feeling better, it didn't occur to me that it was connected with stopping Lexapro.

 

I like what you wrote here because this is exactly what it can be like:

 

 Like someone is spinning a wheel to see what symptom or which combo will hit me on a given day.

 

For me it was such a relief to finally find some of these support sites where I learned the truth about what was happening to me, I was beginning to feel like I was going insane.

 

Its great your doctor has an open mind, I hope you can continue educating him about withdrawal, and maybe he will increase awareness about this situation among his peers where it it could effect some positive change and benefit more people.

 

I'm not sure how much you have looked around the site, but I will post a few links for you which you may find useful. 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Recovery 

 

Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

 

Many people find  fish oil and magnesium helpful, see King of Supplements: Omega 3 Fatty Acids (Fish Oil) and Magnesium, Nature's Calcium Channel Blocker

 

I hope you will stay in touch and keep us updated as you continue to recover, you will find a lot of friendly help and support here.

 

Petu.

[mustangwoman]

Hi Offeffexor!  Glad to see you here!

[btdt]

I will add to my story in saying after learning about delayed withdrawal and looking back other than my 6 wk delay with Effexor all antidepressants I quit over the years had a delayed withdrawal some after ... a general illness with quitting like I had with Effexor for 6wk... I was not fine or better I had symptoms but they were manageable... at 6 wks after Effexor I went to bed with what I thought was the flu as it felt exactly like the worst flu ... I went to bed and stayed there 3 months in bed.  Symptoms cycled after there changing easing getting worse just hell for at 18 solid months... it started to shift and change around 14 months I had a good widow then it all fell back down on my around 18 ... kept doing that... for years... easing over the years... I can only see improvement if I look back over years I can't see it day to day very often at this point...if I did I would not trust it anyway and it never holds but goes and comes back again. 

 

I had fallout from every antidepressant I ever took... side effects that were deplorable and/or withdrawal and delayed withdrawal... always this trickster of delayed withdrawal had me and doctors convinced I had developed a mental illness after starting antidepressants for pain in my leg.  Sound curious doesn't it yet I could not deny I was having symptoms and unable to function and I could not blame a drug as I had quit... and my symptoms changed from depression to anxiety to hallucinations to severe all over body pain... to paranoia ...to OCD ... at time I could not leave my house forget that name of that.... pick a dx I likely had it.  Eventually after you get all those other dx they will put you under the catch all name PTSD or that is what happened to me.  I was always learning about a new dx and how to fix it trying new drugs new therapies I wasted my entire life running after a lie. I don't want this to be the reality for others if it can be avoided by knowing the facts withdrawal can be delays sometimes by wks sometimes by months know it own it. This is worth repeating for all the pitfalls there have been in attempting to heal this is the hole I fell into repeatedly for 18 years or more of my life.  it has the ramification of keeping a person drugged indefinitely once you start on these drugs if you don't know this you can get caught in a this trap and it is a trap withdrawal is devastating it is more so when you don't know it is withdrawal for these reason.  

 

The saddest thing is I believed this... I bought it as there was nothing else at the store to buy and I had to live people depended upon me.... so I bought the rotten theory and ate the rotten fruit...gobbled it up  and kept eating it as it destroyed my health and life ... and hurt all who loved me... in drug induced  personality change I was the extended arm of the drug and I all but destroyed my family and myself... 

I ate the rotten fruit as there was nothing else at the market... I survived I am alive however the damage is palatable... in my face daily in all I do things are so changed.   My life is completely changed so are the lives of all who depended on me and loved me. 

 

Had I known those mental illness symptoms were drug induced or delayed withdrawal I would have spit out the rotten fruit and healed myself maybe before the damage was so great... but I did not know.  There were no sites like this in the time I needed it ... so here I am wiser damaged and hopeful of change for those coming after me. 

 

I am sorry that got out of hand a bit but I think it is very important to know where this lack of information can lead ... I could be a poster child for that but so could many others so could a  lot of dead people .... 

it is important the truth be told over and over again as new folks don't always read back so there it is once again.  I hope others learn from my experience... maybe it won't be such an utter waste of a life. 

peace all

[OffEFFexor]

Thanks for the hellos and welcomes.

 

Petu, you and the other moderators have been wonderful making the efforts to welcome the 'wave' of new members coming over from the other web site that closed.  Above and beyond the call of duty, a special thanks.  I'm taking a bunch of supplements, I got relief from several during acute WD and I returned to them when the long term symptoms appeared.  Magnesium (Mg) and fish oil are the main ones; I was taking those and eating a lot of fish even before I stopped effexor, and during my window of feeling good this summer.  I've read those sections in the past when I was a lurker, and I will revisit them now.

 

My currents supplements:

 

Mg Threonate (supposed to build up within the brain better than other Mg sources, but expensive)

Omega Krill Oil

phosphatidyl choline

glutathione sublingual

Vit B12 sublingual

Vit C

Vit D

Vit E

Multi-vite

Probiotic capsule

Sudafed and Benadryl

 

I can't discern much of a pattern as to which are helping or how much.  I take most of them most days, but some days I just take a supplement holiday and don't take anything, and I'm not sure I feel any different on those days.  The Benadryl seems to have the most direct effect, but I am a little bit concerned about taking it every day, I stopped it three days ago to see if I miss it.

 

btdt, thanks for the summary of your story.  I think effexor was pooping out on me the last couple of years I was on it, but I did not notice this until after I stopped.  The gradual poop-out was so slow I didn't notice it.  And thank you for such a lengthy post--lack of information is a tragedy.

 

The information from pp, from this website, from other sites Alto has posted her writings, and from the few doctors like Healy and Breggin was essential for me personally.  I would've been lost in trying to understand why I am sick without these sources, and surely I would be back on ssri medication, convinced I had suffered a relapse of chronic depression. 

 

Athena, Mustang, I saw you guys over at pp, but I was only posting there for a short time; I look forward to getting to know you and everyone else here on survivingantidepressants. 

 

[mammaP]

Hi Offeff, welcome from me too, another victim of the devil's tic tacs! (Love that name for it, very apt)

 

 Mine pooped out after about 4/5 years and was pretty much  bed ridden when I realised it was the

effexor making me sick. I tapered for about a year before quitting too soon and was hit with withdrawal.

It will be 2 years in April since I reinstated 5 beads and I am still tapering, it is so so hard to get away from! 

You are right it is astounding that doctors haven't a clue, unless like yourself they have experienced

withdrawal they just do not believe it.  They are educated about the drugs they prescribe by the drugs reps 

and they want to sell tic tacs to the whole of mankind so won't be in a hurry to tell the bad stuff 

( Please correct me if I am wrong about that, being a doctor you may know another source of their education

on drugs, of course there is the 'bible' that sits on the desk and has all the drugs in it, written by the drugs companies no doubt! )

 

I'm glad things are starting to get better for you, it is not a very pleasant experience for sure. 

[Frustrated]

I remember you from PP. I was kairbear on that site. Welcome and glad you found your way here.

[Songbird]

Good to see you over here.

[Ever]

Hi OffEFFexor!  Good to see you!

[OffEFFexor]

 

 

mammaP, on 19 Dec 2014 - 7:15 PM, said:

"(Doctors) are educated about the drugs they prescribe by the drugs reps 

and they want to sell tic tacs to the whole of mankind so won't be in a hurry to tell the bad stuff 

( Please correct me if I am wrong about that, being a doctor you may know another source of their education

on drugs, of course there is the 'bible' that sits on the desk and has all the drugs in it, written by the drugs companies no doubt! )"

 

Thanks mammaP.   You are not wrong; the primary source of education for prescribers of these meds are the drug reps, as much as most docs will deny, they are deeply influenced by this and all the other marketing techniques.

 

Most docs who prescribe these meds are not psychiatrists, which is one of many factors that magnifies the influence of pharma's marketing.  But even for psychiatrists, who may be dedicated to devoting significant time and effort to their own education, are still stuck with disinformation and lack of valid information.

 

The whole chain of research, teaching, textbook writing and distribution, peer-reviewed journal publication, is horribly and completely corrupted by big pharma money.  How professors at medical schools are paid, for consulting, which studied get funded either by NIH or by pharma companies themselves, which studies never get published, even entire areas of investigation that investigators are influenced to avoid, overtly or covertly.  There are other corrupting influences, but money from this source predominates.  It boggles the mind, and it completely overwhelms the doc in private practice, just trying to educate himself and take care of his patients.  Given the conditions, such widespread ignorance is the expected outcome.

 

So many aspects of the medical profession have similarly been horribly corrupted by big money.  This has been ongoing and accumulating the entire 30 years I've been a physician, getting worse every year.  Similar can be said about many things in our society and culture, but the gross failures of medicine are easily explained by this simple dynamic.  A wise person said 'the love of money is the root of all evil', but I prefer Cyndi Lauper - "Money changes everything."

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aK-UjR3Oj4

 

 

[Athena]

Hehe love it too OffEff!!

[Irishguy4u]

Hi Off Effexor,

Nice to see your post. I have been of Effexor for 13 years, and switched to other meds and quit cold turkey aug of this year. It has been friggin hell. I am glad you made it and Hopefully someday, I can say the same thing.

God Bless

[Karma]

Hi OffEFFexor

 

Welcome to SA.  I was interested in your story because I am tapering off of Effexor and I saw where you were off of the drug.  I am down from a high of 375 mg to just 10 mg.  It is taking quite a bit more time than I originally thought it would, but I consider my taper successful.  I work a full-time demanding job and I remain quite stable.  Like you I have drastically changed my diet and actually started using beneficial supplements before I started my taper.

 

I wish you continued healing and improvement.  I hope you will continue to post to the forum to help others on their journey.

 

Love and light,

Karma

[OffEFFexor]

Thanks for the responses.  I'm gonna do a quick update/journal entry.  Sunday I had a great day.  Like I felt normal.  First day in memory I had not even a headache/no tinnitus, plus an absence of any other symptoms.  Normal cognition, normal mood and emotions, normal energy level.  I last felt this good one day in mid-October.  I did not figure this would last, based on how things have gone over the last couple of months, and by evening the HA and tinnitus had returned.

 

Then, Monday, a crap day.  Different too, because I woke up with anxiety.  I am lucky I do not have much anxiety, in health or sickness.  When I was young I did, but not a pathological amount, I never sought medical attention for anxiety.  And that had faded, so even when deeply depressed in my 30s or 40s I didn't get that panicky, anxiety component.  Yet, Monday morning I have a new (for me) withdrawal symptom, anxiety.  Didn't last an hour, just needed to wait out the AM cortisol surge. I guess that department of the brain, the anxiety circuitry, is the one being worked on/healing right now.  In other ways it was a crap day throughout; sadness, crying, loud loud tinnitus, no energy, all of these things off and on--bad for an hour or two, then relieved.  A typical crap day in WD.  But by evening, things abated, I felt OK, and fell asleep w/o difficulty.

 

This morning--felt normal.  Just like Sunday morning.  Symptom free.  But by noon, HA started a little.  By 1pm, the tinnitus, and losing energy. Now I am down to a better than average level of function, did a few chores but not up to swimming today.

 

I just wanted to jot down because the feeling normal, symptom-free periods of Sunday and today were welcome and encouraging and the positive intensity is greater than I've had in two months.  And the swing from good to bad to good again was much larger than usual over the past few weeks.  Plus, the new for me symptom, anxiety, was an interesting addition.  I have to laugh at and marvel at the up/down, back/forth nature of this process, but I'm also encouraged.

[ang]

[Well done Karma, However it is the devils tic tacs, go slowly from now on.

[ang]

Thankyou off effexor. I too had been on effexor for about 8 years, gave up too quickly, did a dive. Went on other things to survive, I felt so bad, I did not even have the brain power to work out if it was a return of depression or WD. I now know it was WD, thanks to this site.

 

Two years on, I gave up all meds over four months. And yes the WD hit after four damn months, thought I was OK.

In hindsight glad I went on something else, to cope with the excruciating WD of effexor, for those two years. Now I am on a sedative and tegretol.

I am coping.

thankyou for sharing your journey.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

OE,

 

I was reading in Off Topic and your mention of being an anesthesiologist caught my eye as well as your mention of ETOH in your sig. I came to your journal and read the whole thing. I often look at the list of 'who's online' and I saw you were reading mine one day.

 

What really struck me were some of the similarities in our stories (I did a CT inadvertently) as the drugs left our systems. Please don't torture yourself trying to read my early journal, I was nutty crazy when I got here and did not have a clue, kept thinking I was OK. I felt the best I ever felt in years, I could finally feel my body again, I understood I did not need meds to regulate my moods. But then the crap hit the fan at 5 months, I found this place and started my time of DP/DR. My serious wd symptoms did not happen until one year off and that I can tie to vistaril use tipping me over the edge. That you were taking benadryl alarmed me until you said you stopped. There is some info about antihists being related to ADs might be why. I don't take anything now, I tough out the aches and pains (I've had 3 ibuprofen in the past 3 months) , use a heating pad a lot and when I went through the crying jags I used vicks to unstop my nose.

 

I do hope your journey goes better than mine did. I am feeling well now but I don't know if it is permanent yet. I thought I was well before and I was proved wrong. (I also thought I knew what he11 was like, I had no clue.) Protracted wd is simply awful. I hope you do well. I'll be watching your story with interest.

[OffEFFexor]

Thanks, cw.  I've been reading/lurking and not posting lately.  I've been swinging wildly between feeling as close to healthy as I have in months, to a jumble of symptoms.  There were parts of the last few days I started to think I had really turned a corner getting past this WD mess; there were also times last week and again this morning that depression and suicide thoughts were dominant in my broken (but healing) mind. Up/down, back/forth.

 

I only stopped the benadryl for about a week, then I resumed.  Most nights I take 50mg, and my sleep has been ok with it.  I seem to have trouble falling asleep w/o the benadryl.  Some nights when the headache is bad, the benadryl seems to relieve it.

 

I am not sure if it is a good or bad idea to take the benadryl regularly.  What I've read is contradictory--some people report a lot of trouble with it, other people report good symptom relief.  Healy mentions that there is a downside to using antihistamines, but I couldn't find anything specific from him (though I have hardly read his stuff extensively.)

 

I am going to read your story, to learn how vistaril affected you.  And I'm going to read further to consider if I should toss the antihistamine. Considering the role in the history of ssri's that benadryl plays, maybe I'd be better off w/o it.

[Lookingforhope55]

I have worked with many psychiatrists and physicians who prescribe meds and really do not understand withdrawal. They tend to prescribe one med after another and people don't realize what impact these drugs have on them. This is a great site. Lots of people who are hurting yet trying to help others.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

You can start here and skip the dreck from the beginning of my time here. The symptoms of wd syndrome are starting to show, the anxiety. I had started a meditation class too and that and the atarax tipped me over the edge into decompensation. It hit full out in Nov, you can see the day it started and I'll never forget it. I am an ex-nurse and I had no clue what palpitations REALLY felt like, I had been getting them near constantly (another sign of autonomic nervous system upheaval, which I ignored). Had I kept on the inderal I might have done myself in, it gave me akasthesia really bad. I did not have benign palps I had wd syndrome. Doc was clueless.

 

I hope your journey is not like mine. I just get really nervous when I read of someone going CT and then they mention taking some drugs (benadryl) and supplements (like 5-HTP) and I am put on alert. Find a way to avoid them if you can. When wd insomnia hit, it was really really really bad. Really.

 

I read so many technical articles on antihistamines and a lightbulb turned on for me, I finally saw why it was not a good idea when they turned on me. I just don't remember where those articles are. Maybe it won't happen to you.

 

Edit: I just reread your post above and now I am sure that when I read how ADs were developed (discovered? synthesized?) from an antihistamine that that was what lit it up for me. I had been adding a similar chemical back into a system that had already become sensitized to ADs. Vistaril is a rx antihistamine and I was given a boatload of it by my psych for sleep because she did not want to increase my K.

 

Also, the unpredictability and up and down-ness of symptoms is most probably due to the upregulating and repopulating of receptors. Did you read the articles in this topic?

Edited January 3, 2015 by cymbaltawithdrawal5600
info on benadryl & wd syndrome

[Hudgens]

Our stories have some similarities. I'm 57, started out on Imipramine 8 yrs, ended up on Effexor 11 yrs. Had a drinking problem until my mid thirties.

 

I did a 4 yr taper from 75 mgs of Effexor beginning in 2010. I've been post taper just two months now, and doing well.

Also at about half way through the taper I began to see that the drug had altered my personality in ways I didn't like at all.

I'd become a cruel and vindictive person without knowing it. There were also a lot of disinhibition which resulted in a lot of dangerous behavior. Antidepressants work, for example get rid of anxiety, by numbing parts of the brain, but this effect can have unintended bad effects, too (as with antibiotics which kill the bad stuff, but at the same time kill a lot of the good stuff). Luckily however, I escaped any real trouble, but did do a lot of interpersonal (intrapersonal?) damage.

 

I'm pretty much back to my old self now and just marveling at the awful things I said and did.

 

The other problem is not knowing When you're really recovered-these drugs are like no other in this way-you can get hit with WD

2 years out. It defies reason. I'm going to be 60 before I stop worrying about this. I cold turkeyed my Imipramine and didn't get WD until 9 months out! Of course I'm hoping that a 4 year taper will have very different results. So far so good, but it hasn't been so far yet.

 

Hope you're in a window.    

[WiggleIt]

Hi OffEFF,

 

I am so sorry for what you are experiencing and I was struck by your use of tricyclics, because I am having trouble finding others who have exposure to them.  I'm kinda messed up right now, so I don't know what else to say.

 

I hope we can be friends and I hope we both get better.

 

Best,

WiggleIt 

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

I added some information to my previous post instead of making a new one. I am glad I revisited your thread and saw the note from Hudgens, I never realized how much of my history was like his. And WI, I took all kinds of TCAs for 5 years before I moved to FL. A little prozac was in the mix too. That is all they had back then. They kept changing them because every year it seemed my symptoms of constant crying and depression came back.

[OffEFFexor]

Thanks for the posts, guys and gals.  My last tricyclics were more than 20 years ago, my last alcohol nearly that long.  I figure my brain has long since recovered from the adverse effects.  But, who knows?

 

I take great strength from the people on here suffering so, and their sharing their struggles.  Particularly, the people with similarities to my path.   Another of those similarities, cw, I eat about a pound of almonds a week, my favorite healthy snack, along with pistaschios, pecans and cashews. 

 

Just when I think I am in a window, when I've had a good day and a half, I get slammed with a mini-wave of symptoms, the last couple of days mostly depression, along with HA, tinnitus and general brain fog.  But, the worst only lasts a few hours.  It is striking how good I can feel, then how badly I feel a short while later.  I'm trying to not get too happy, or too discouraged by the extremes of the swings.  (Like the Kipling poem?)  http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_if.htm

 

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;

[btdt]

You can start here and skip the dreck from the beginning of my time here. The symptoms of wd syndrome are starting to show, the anxiety. I had started a meditation class too and that and the atarax tipped me over the edge into decompensation. It hit full out in Nov, you can see the day it started and I'll never forget it. I am an ex-nurse and I had no clue what palpitations REALLY felt like, I had been getting them near constantly (another sign of autonomic nervous system upheaval, which I ignored). Had I kept on the inderal I might have done myself in, it gave me akasthesia really bad. I did not have benign palps I had wd syndrome. Doc was clueless.

 

I hope your journey is not like mine. I just get really nervous when I read of someone going CT and then they mention taking some drugs (benadryl) and supplements (like 5-HTP) and I am put on alert. Find a way to avoid them if you can. When wd insomnia hit, it was really really really bad. Really.

 

I read so many technical articles on antihistamines and a lightbulb turned on for me, I finally saw why it was not a good idea when they turned on me. I just don't remember where those articles are. Maybe it won't happen to you.

 

Edit: I just reread your post above and now I am sure that when I read how ADs were developed (discovered? synthesized?) from an antihistamine that that was what lit it up for me. I had been adding a similar chemical back into a system that had already become sensitized to ADs. Vistaril is a rx antihistamine and I was given a boatload of it by my psych for sleep because she did not want to increase my K.

 

Also, the unpredictability and up and down-ness of symptoms is most probably due to the upregulating and repopulating of receptors. Did you read the articles in this topic?

file:///C:/Users/sandy/Downloads/DBM%20Paper%20-%20Halting%20Antidepressants%20Rsmallpdf.com.pdf

 

Less potent SSRIs

Clomipramine Anafranil

Imipramine Tofranil

Amitrityline Elavil Tryptizol

Dosulepin

Diphenydramine

Chlorpheniramine

Prothiaden

Benadryl

Chlorphen Actifed

There was another allergy drug... mentioned by the OP too likely needs to be looked at. 

peace 

 

This information about the history of SSRI came from a British man who use to be on PP years ago I forget his name but he had a dancing avatar in a space suit from there I researched other articles in how they came up with ssri drugs.. it has been posted several times on the net in wd sites but so many of them have been taken down I would not be surprised to see the info no longer available like so many other articles.. but it may be if you care to search... I don't.  

Thing is does it matter it is still a drug and it can go paradoxical 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2352-benadryl-diphenhydramine-for-withdrawal-insomnia/?hl=benadryl

 

This is a copy of a previous post about my small bit of experience with benadryl....

"If you look you will find people who have been or are addicted to antihistamines.  

I found it set back my withdrawal I used it only when I felt not sleeping was causing symptoms I was scared of really scared of I was losing it... then i would take 1/4 and even with this low dose I would feel my withdrawal became worse after I have used it.  Some feed back mechanism is what caused it or so I learned when  I read about it long ago... I had already had a paradoxical reaction to benzo for sleep before this and was not into taking any sleep meds.  I found I could go about 3-4 days without sleep after that I got dangerous and would take something. 

Tho I battles insomnia and broken sleep for years I took !/4 dose only 3-4 times during all that... as the fallout was just not worth it. "

 

If you are going to use these other drugs to switch over to a different AD and know that is what your doing that is one thing but at least know that is what your doing and check out the risks.  I also used gravol another antihistamine to treat dizziness so I could drive I know that does not make me a stellar citizen but considering "other sorts of things I did while on E"  it is slight in comparison.  Gravol is actually working on the brain too... just like all these drugs.

 

I added this in here tho I am not up to date with your thread hope I am not repeating what another has already said. 

 

wishing you peace 

[OffEFFexor]

Thanks, btdt.  Not repetitive, very useful. 

 

I'm not sure what to do, because so far the benedryl seems to be helping me, and I can't pin any negatives to it.  It was a clear help during my acute withdrawal, and I had no trouble stopping benedryl in the past.  I've used it off and on for decades for bad allergies, and I have a positive track record with the drug.

 

OTOH, these negatives I take seriously, and it may well be causing some of my current difficulty despite my perception of the opposite.  I'm gonna try not to overthink it, and maybe take it only on nights I feel bad, rather than every night no matter what.

[btdt]

There was another sinus drug you take too may be worth looking at the active ingredients in it as well.  This pattern you have just now is curious to me as I have been reading on sites like this a long time and it is different... I wonder if your ups and downs are because of the short half life of the lesser AD ...just a thought. 

[chicken]

If benedryl helps that is good.

 

I had it to go paradoxical 3 times with me before I figured out the culprit. I was taking it with some vitamins during a time of major anxiety. I would take it near bed time and would wake up with a full blown panic attack. It was scary. I'd never had panic attacks before, I thought I was dying.
Finally figured out that it was benedryl.

 

I hope benedryl will work for me again. When it did it was a good med but I'm scared to try it again. I had a severe reaction to something years ago that started an horrific itch that wouldn't go away. Benedryl saved the day that time. I've heard it can go paradoxial at any time from other folks.

[OffEFFexor]

Sure, it is possible that sudafed and/or benadryl are causing problems, rather than giving me relief.  I have stopped them for a few days at a time here and there during this wave since September.  I don't know; I just kinda sorta have a sense that they are helping. 

 

I think if I get a full-fledged window of relief, I'll stop both these.  I didn't take benadryl at all during my summertime window, and I used sudafed only when my allergies were kicking up. 

 

Man, what I would give for someone to be able to tell me definitively 'take this for your symptoms, don't take that'.  Of course that is not possible; I'm learning to live with greater uncertainty. 

[btdt]

I had better luck with Gravol in the child strength as a small bit reacted on me... it is chewable and cherry flavour here in Canada...easy to eat if your out and about and can't drive to get home cause of dizziness... mild and short acting I took 1/4 of a child dose.. I know my friends laugh at me...but it was all I could take and stay awake.  Again even with this drug being slight I could only tolerate infrequent use as I swear it has a rebound effect... like the other antihistamines tho the dose was so low it was less. 

Gravol is 

 diphenhydramine and 8-chlorotheophylline.

both on the Risk list I think.  I can't see it now and can't recall well enough to check ... can't do a split screen don't know how. 

 

The original poster of antihistamine history being the base drugs for all ssri drugs came from a poster on pp years ago... don't recall his name but he was from England and had a dancing avatar in a space suit... who knows his name ... small things bug me  

 

May be worth some time researching not saying over think it but it is amazing the things we can learn and the sense symptoms make after we know... sometimes... not always of course ...nothing explains ssri snri withdrawal nothing I understand at least. 

peace 

[chicken]

I had better luck with Gravol in the child strength as a small bit reacted on me... it is chewable and cherry flavour here in Canada...easy to eat if your out and about and can't drive to get home cause of dizziness... mild and short acting I took 1/4 of a child dose.. I know my friends laugh at me...but it was all I could take and stay awake.  Again even with this drug being slight I could only tolerate infrequent use as I swear it has a rebound effect... like the other antihistamines tho the dose was so low it was less. 

Gravol is 

 diphenhydramine and 8-chlorotheophylline.

both on the Risk list I think.  I can't see it now and can't recall well enough to check ... can't do a split screen don't know how. 

 

The original poster of antihistamine history being the base drugs for all ssri drugs came from a poster on pp years ago... don't recall his name but he was from England and had a dancing avatar in a space suit... who knows his name ... small things bug me  

 

May be worth some time researching not saying over think it but it is amazing the things we can learn and the sense symptoms make after we know... sometimes... not always of course ...nothing explains ssri snri withdrawal nothing I understand at least. 

peace 

 

Look at the history of APs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpromazine

 

As far back as 1933 they were looking for better anti-histimines which led to antipsychotics.

[btdt]

Sudafed (Pseudoephedrine)-.......

phenethylamine and amphetamine chemical classes.

http://www.rxlist.com/sudafed-drug.htm

 

It is interesting the combination of drugs you have chosen did you pick them on purpose to get low doses of the drug you were on?

Sudafed if you break it down is a like drug to Effexor

see here

 Venlafaxine hydrochloride is in the phenethylamine class of modern chemicals, which includes amphetamine, methylendioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), and methamphetamine. This chemical structure likely lends to its activating properties

 

http://depression.wikia.com/wiki/Venlafaxine

 

One would think this would help with withdrawal I wonder though if just going to a lower dose of E would be a better idea as you know the half life and your body is use to it.  I know your not trying to taper... but it seems this may be something of the same.  

Hope I am not getting on your nerves I tend to get on my own nerves when I have this idea about something and I suspected there would be a connection and there is.  I don't know if it is all that big a connection I never studied chemistry... I only wish I had  

wishing you well 

peace

[OffEFFexor]

 

May be worth some time researching not saying over think it but it is amazing the things we can learn and the sense symptoms make after we know... sometimes... not always of course ...nothing explains ssri snri withdrawal nothing I understand at least. 

peace 

When my brain fog isn't too bad, I prefer to grab as much info as I can.  And I love history--medical or otherwise. 

 

I had to dig a bit, but I just uncovered this (w/o paying for the article--they've made old articles so difficult to access w/o paying some third party a fee; it's not like the scientists who did the work get paid a royalty.) An article entitled "The Discovery of Fluoxetine Hydrochloride (Prozac)" from 2005.

 

http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic882884.files/Discovery%20Prozac%20Nature%20Drug%20Dis%202005.pdf

 

I did not pick these meds with that in mind.  The benadryl was recommended for acute withdrawal (along with Mg++, fish oil, et al.) and it really seemed to help.  The sudafed I've used for allergy congestion, and getting congested is one of my symptoms of acute and prolonged withdrawal.   Perhaps I stumbled upon an inadvertent, irregular taper.  Fascinating.

 

I am humbled that anyone takes the time to discuss my plight and problems.  I sincerely thank everyone for you input, experience and ideas.  Or, as we say in the 12-step world, experience, strength and hope.

[btdt]

 

I had better luck with Gravol in the child strength as a small bit reacted on me... it is chewable and cherry flavour here in Canada...easy to eat if your out and about and can't drive to get home cause of dizziness... mild and short acting I took 1/4 of a child dose.. I know my friends laugh at me...but it was all I could take and stay awake.  Again even with this drug being slight I could only tolerate infrequent use as I swear it has a rebound effect... like the other antihistamines tho the dose was so low it was less. 

Gravol is 

 diphenhydramine and 8-chlorotheophylline.

both on the Risk list I think.  I can't see it now and can't recall well enough to check ... can't do a split screen don't know how. 

 

The original poster of antihistamine history being the base drugs for all ssri drugs came from a poster on pp years ago... don't recall his name but he was from England and had a dancing avatar in a space suit... who knows his name ... small things bug me  

 

May be worth some time researching not saying over think it but it is amazing the things we can learn and the sense symptoms make after we know... sometimes... not always of course ...nothing explains ssri snri withdrawal nothing I understand at least. 

peace 

 

Look at the history of APs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpromazine

 

As far back as 1933 they were looking for better anti-histimines which led to antipsychotics.

 

I thought Whitakers books said they were looking for a TB drug when they found it but this is all I found so I guess I was wrong... 

 

I did find this from him tho look how much like today .... media ...journals for marketing they have a long history of this longer than I thought... 

 

"Whitaker says that pharmaceutical advertising, articles published in the scientific literature, and stories in the media of "miracle drugs" transformed Thorazine into a healing drug.^[1]:158

Whitaker says that marketing money from pharmaceutical companies began to flow to theAmerican Medical Association in 1951, a year after Thorazine was synthesized, because of theDurham-Humphrey Amendment to the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act which "greatly expanded the list of medications that could only be obtained with a doctor's prescription".^{[1]:148–149""}

^{bit of conflict over who invented it or I am confused...} 

The discovery of phenothiazines, the first family of antipsychotic agents has its origin in the development of German dye industry, at the end of the 19th century (Graebe, Liebermann, Bernthsen). Up to 1940 they were employed as antiseptics, antihelminthics and antimalarials (Ehrlich, Schulemann, Gilman). Finally, in the context of research on antihistaminic substances in France after World War II (Bovet, Halpern, Ducrot) the chlorpromazine was synthesized at Rhône-Poulenc Laboratories (Charpentier, Courvoisier, Koetschet) in December 1950. Its introduction in anaesthesiology, in the antishock area (lytic cocktails) and "artificial hibernation" techniques, is reviewed (Laborit), and its further psychiatric clinical introduction in 1952, with initial discrepancies between the Parisian Val-de-Grâce (Laborit, Hamon, Paraire) and Sainte-Anne (Delay, Deniker) hospital groups. The first North-American publications on chlorpromazine took place in 1954 (Lehmann, Winkelman, Bower). The introduction of chlorpromazine in the USA (SKF) was more difficult due to their strong psychoanalytic tradition. The consolidation of the neuroleptic therapy took place in 1955, thanks to a series of scientific events, which confirmed the antipsychotic efficacy of the chlorpromazine.

t