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Songbird: a little about me


Songbird

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  • Moderator Emeritus

How are you Songbird?  Was thinking of you today, and am sending hugs.

Karen

x

2010  Fluoxetine 20mg.  2011  Escitalopram 20mg.  2013 Tapered badly and destabilised CNS.  Effexor 150mg. 

2015 Begin using info at SurvivingAntidepressants.  Cut 10% - bad w/d 2 months, held 1 month. 

Micro-tapering: four weekly 0.4% cuts, hold 4 weeks (struggling with symptoms).

8 month hold.

2017 Micro-tapering: four weekly 1% cuts, hold 4 weeks (symptoms almost non-existent).

2020 Still micro-tapering. Just over 2/3 of the way off effexor. Minimal symptoms, - and sleeping well.
Supplements: Fish oil, vitamin C, iron, oat-straw tea, nettle tea.

2023 Now on 7 micro-beads of Effexor. Minimal symptoms but much more time needed between drops.

 'The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists.'  Dr Gabor Mate.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Thanks, everyone, for all your kind words and support.  I have updosed to 3.6mg, I figured this was a significant but not large increase.  I'm feeling a bit annoyed about doing an updose, but I reached a point where I felt stability was more important than tapering.  I didn't come here for a while as I didn't want to get confused by people offering various advice, so I just decided to make my decision and stick to it! 

 

I think the problem this time is not so much the withdrawal (as in I haven't tapered too fast), but more that withdrawal has left my system with very little resilience to stress.  It's just that too many stressors hit at once!  Last time I crashed a lot worse at 4.5mg and then I thought I'd never be able to taper below 4.5mg, but then eventually I did, so I don't think it is something special about this particular dose.  Eventually I might think about tapering again, but for now my priority is stabilising. 

 

Each time I've been improving something has knocked me back.  I'm not sure what happened last week.  I had been using l-theanine quite successfully, but one night I think it may have had a paradoxical reaction.  The next night I had an Epsom salts bath, which has never caused problems before, but it left my whole body buzzing badly.  I also could hardly eat for a few days and had bad stomach aches - I don't know if this was because of my state or if it was maybe a stomach bug - I could only tolerate milo, almonds, and small nibbles of banana. 

 

I've felt a lot better and I've been able to eat almost normally since Sunday.  The David Swenson DVD has been invaluable yet again for calming things down.  I'm working on just observing the doomcloud, as someone said.

2001–2002 paroxetine

2003  citalopram

2004-2008  paroxetine (various failed tapers) 
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to

2016  Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct 15mg … slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg 6 Jul 4.1mg 17 Aug 4.0mg  18 Nov 3.8mg
2019  15 Mar 3.6mg  21 May 3.4mg  26 Dec 3.2mg 

2020  19 Feb 3.0mg 19 Jul 2.9mg 16 Sep 2.8mg 25 Oct 2.7mg 23 Oct 2.6mg 24 Dec 2.5mg

2021   29 Aug 2.4mg   15 Nov 2.3mg

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We all feel your frustration.

Hope this brings stability for you.

Thought for the day: Lets stand up, and let’s speak out , together. G Olsen

We have until the 14th. Feb 2018. 

URGENT REQUEST Please consider submitting  for the petition on Prescribed Drug Dependence and Withdrawal currently awaiting its third consideration at the Scottish Parliament. You don't even have to be from Scotland. By clicking on the link below you can read some of the previous submissions but be warned many of them are quite harrowing.

http://www.parliament.scot/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01651   

Please tell them about your problems taking and withdrawing from antidepressants and/or benzos.

Send by email to petitions@parliament.scot and quote PE01651 in the subject heading. Keep to a maximum of 3 sides of A4 and you can't name for legal reasons any doctor you have consulted. Tell them if you wish to remain anonymous. We need the numbers to help convince the committee members we are not isolated cases. You have until mid February. Thank you

Recovering paxil addict

None of the published articles shed light on what ssri's ... actually do or what their hazards might be. Healy 2013. 

This is so true, with anything you get on these drugs, dependance, tapering, withdrawal symptoms, side effects, just silent. And if there is something mentioned then their is a serious disconnect between what is said and reality! 

  "Every time I read of a multi-person shooting, I always presume that person had just started a SSRI or had just stopped."  Dr Mosher. Me too! 

Over two decades later, the number of antidepressant prescriptions a year is slightly more than the number of people in the Western world. Most (nine out of 10) prescriptions are for patients who faced difficulties on stopping, equating to about a tenth of the population. These patients are often advised to continue treatment because their difficulties indicate they need ongoing treatment, just as a person with diabetes needs insulin. Healy 2015

I believe the ssri era will soon stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine. Healy 2015

Let people help people ... in a natural, kind, non-addictive (and non-big pharma) way. J Broadley 2017

 

 

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Thank you so much for the update, Songbird. I, and I'm sure many others, were worried about you. You are right about not letting everyone's opinions confuse you even further. I'm so glad to hear you are already feeling a bit better.

 

You know I was talking to someone on the board who got increased anxiety and insomnia when they tried L-theanine. Strange as I usually hear good things about it (although I'm scared to take most supplements for fear of a reaction) but it just goes to show how different we all are and how our tolerances can change over time.

 

Praying that you keep improving. ((HUGS))

a.k.a JMarie

Paxil since Mar.1998

2006-2007:40-20mg
2009: 20mg to 14mg 2010: 14mg to 10.5mg 2011: 10.5 to 7.6mg  2012: 7.5 to 6.8mg

2013: 6.7-6.3mg 2014: 6.2mg-5.8mg 2015: 5.7 to 5.15mg 2016: 5.1-4.6mg

1/19/17: 4.5mg 3/17/17: 4.4mg

6/15/17: 4.35mg 8/10/17: 4.3mg

1/29/18: 4.1mg 5/07/18: 4.0mg

7/31/18: 3.9mg

 

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Yes, we are certainly concerned for your situation and I share your frustration at having to up-dose.  It is a difficult call, and only you can make that decision for yourself and none of us would think any less of you.  I was worried that the up-dose might cause further problems as sometimes it doesn't seem to work.  How long after you up-dosed till you felt better?

 

So glad you are feeling better already, does that mean the trembling has gone?  Was it like shaking?I was going to post what happened yesterday when I felt very shakey and very weak.  I have experienced the shakes before, but not quite so bad.  I usually put it down to sugar, so I have a teaspoon of honey and a banana and so on then lie down for an hour and I usually improve.  I realise you had the trembling for days, so perhaps it wasn't a sugar issue for you.

 

What is L-thianine and why do you take that?  Do you still have to find work?

 

Please keep us updated throughout your stabilising and will look forward to a new YOU!

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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  • Moderator

Hi Songbird-- I'm sorry to hear that you had so much trouble while I was away.  The low doses of paxil can be really touchy and unpredictable.  I remember the low 2s being a real pain.  Throw in all the extra stress you've had lately and I can really see the problems springing up.  I hope the updose helps.

 

One question, how much magnesium are you taking, if any?

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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  • Moderator Emeritus

I thought I was doing better but now I don't seem to be.  Symptoms have changed somewhat, but each time I feel like I'm improving I then get worse again.  I'm having a horrible wave tonight.  Last night it finally eased off about 8:30, but tonight it's 9:30 and it's not going away.  There's something wrong with my tummy - I have an appetite and want to eat, but when I do eat it seems to trigger a bad wave.  It's not so much a normal anxiety attack any more, it's more like an internal trembling and a sort of head rush, like all the blood has rushed to my head and my face feels flushed and I get a sense of derealisation and I feel restless and can't relax.  I have a form for blood tests which I should have done this week but will do on Monday, and then go see the doctor.  I don't know what to do, I feel horrendous.

2001–2002 paroxetine

2003  citalopram

2004-2008  paroxetine (various failed tapers) 
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to

2016  Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct 15mg … slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg 6 Jul 4.1mg 17 Aug 4.0mg  18 Nov 3.8mg
2019  15 Mar 3.6mg  21 May 3.4mg  26 Dec 3.2mg 

2020  19 Feb 3.0mg 19 Jul 2.9mg 16 Sep 2.8mg 25 Oct 2.7mg 23 Oct 2.6mg 24 Dec 2.5mg

2021   29 Aug 2.4mg   15 Nov 2.3mg

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  • Moderator Emeritus

I'm probably going to admit defeat and updose to a much higher dose.  Even after all those years of tapering.  I just can't do this any more, I'm barely functioning.  Each day I get worse.  I think I'm getting rebound from the zopiclone now, but without it I can't sleep.  It's been 11 days since my small updose.  I know that's not long, but I am getting so bad now I really can't function like this.  I can't eat properly, every time I eat anything I have a really bad wave afterwards.  Even the relaxation exercises and stuff is not working very well, it helps but not enough.  It's so hard to be here again, pretty much back where I was in 2008.  Part of me is thinking of going to the hospital.  I just can't cope with this any more.

2001–2002 paroxetine

2003  citalopram

2004-2008  paroxetine (various failed tapers) 
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to

2016  Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct 15mg … slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg 6 Jul 4.1mg 17 Aug 4.0mg  18 Nov 3.8mg
2019  15 Mar 3.6mg  21 May 3.4mg  26 Dec 3.2mg 

2020  19 Feb 3.0mg 19 Jul 2.9mg 16 Sep 2.8mg 25 Oct 2.7mg 23 Oct 2.6mg 24 Dec 2.5mg

2021   29 Aug 2.4mg   15 Nov 2.3mg

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Songbird, I'm so, so sorry it's got to this.  I feel too new to offer anything useful to you, so I've asked the other mods to have a look when they log in again.  I'm really feeling for you, and also I'm really angry on your behalf at the drug companies and culture that put you here. 

 

If I were closer I'd offer to come round and sit with you, and just be a friend.  Well, nothing I'm writing seems adequate.  Please just know I care very much about you.

 

Karen

xx

2010  Fluoxetine 20mg.  2011  Escitalopram 20mg.  2013 Tapered badly and destabilised CNS.  Effexor 150mg. 

2015 Begin using info at SurvivingAntidepressants.  Cut 10% - bad w/d 2 months, held 1 month. 

Micro-tapering: four weekly 0.4% cuts, hold 4 weeks (struggling with symptoms).

8 month hold.

2017 Micro-tapering: four weekly 1% cuts, hold 4 weeks (symptoms almost non-existent).

2020 Still micro-tapering. Just over 2/3 of the way off effexor. Minimal symptoms, - and sleeping well.
Supplements: Fish oil, vitamin C, iron, oat-straw tea, nettle tea.

2023 Now on 7 micro-beads of Effexor. Minimal symptoms but much more time needed between drops.

 'The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists.'  Dr Gabor Mate.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hi Songbird,

 

Really sorry to hear that things have got so bad for you.  Please be careful about the dose you choose if you do decide to updose.  Also, could you please update your signature with the dose changes you have made since 5 Feb this year and also add the zopiclone.  Thanks.

 

Just did a check on the zopiclone side effects and you may be right that you are getting side effects from that:

 

From:  http://xpil.medicines.org.uk/ViewPil.aspx?DocID=18157

Tell your doctor or pharmacist if any of the following side effects occur or worsen:
  • Effects on the gastrointestinal system: a bitter or metallic taste in the mouth, dry mouth and feeling sick or being sick.

* NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA *

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED:  (6 year taper)      0mg Pristiq  on 13th November 2021

ADs since ~1992:  25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity)  Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021   LAST DOSE 0.0025mg

Post 0 updates start here    My tapering program     My Intro (goes to tapering graph)

 VIDEO:   Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management

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Songbird,

 

It's heartbreaking to hear the hardship you are going through! You are in my prayer for a miracle to turn things around suddenly for better! Also I want you known you are not lone as I am feeling the same many days lately as things got lots worse quickly. So I know how you feel and why you think this way.

 

Do you get better days or hours? to me hot flush to head is a drug reaction not WD. I remember you mentioned sometimes reducing dose helps with certain symptoms. Have you tried that lately for the new symptoms?

 

 

Lex

Drug free Sep. 23 2017

2009 Mar.: lexapro 10mg for headache for 2 weeks.

2009-2012: on and off 1/4 to 1/3 of 10mg

2012 June--2013 Jan,: 1/4-1/3 of 10mg generic, bad jaw pain

2013 Jan-Mar: 10 mg generic. severe jaw and head pain;

2013 Mar--Aug. started tapering (liquid ever since) from 10 to 5 (one step) then gradually down to 2.25 mg by July. first ever panic attack, severe head/jaw pain

2013 Aug.: back to 2.75 mg; Nov: back to Brand Lex. 2.75mg -- 3mg,

2014 June: stopped PPI, head pressure/numbness. up-dosed 4.5mg, severe reaction mental symptoms added on

2014 Aug--2015 Aug: Micro taper down to 3.2mg, .025mg (<1%) cut holding 2-3 weeks.

2015 Aug 15th, Accidental one dose of 4.2mg. worsening brain non-functional, swollen head, body, coma like, DR

2016 Feb., started dosing 10am through 11 pm everyday 2/13--3.2mg, 3/15-- 2.9mg, 4/19-- 2.6mg, 6/26--2.2mg, 7/22 --1.9mg, 8/16--1.8mg,8/31--1.7m g, 9/13--1.6mg, 9/27--1.5mg, 10/8--1.4mg, 10/14--1.3mg, 11/1--1.2mg, 11/29--1.1mg, 12/12--1mg, 12/22--0.9mg

2017: 1/7--0.8mg, 1/15--0.7mg, 1/17--0.6mg, 1/20--0.52, 1/21--0.4mg, 1/22--0.26, 1/23--0.2, 2/13--0.13mg, 2/20--0.06mg, 3/18--0.13mg, 6/1--0.12mg, 7/6--0.1mg, 7/14--0.08mg, 8/17--0.04mg, 8/20--0.03mg, 8/28--0.02mg, 9/6--0.0205mg, 9/8--0.02mg, 9/17--0.015mg, 9/20--0.01mg, 9/21--0.0048mg, 9/22--0.0001mg,

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Thanks, everyone.  Karen, it helps very much to have an online friend!  I will be calling my GP first thing tomorrow, and try to get to see the same p-doc I saw back in 2008.  I think I was in a bit of denial about the zopiclone.  I've used it many times before without problems, but this time I think I was on it too long and not stabilising with an AD updose to help me sleep.  I will probably go back up to 8mg over the next few days.  It's hard to fail at this taper, but harder to exist like this.  I don't think I actually tapered too fast, I think I just have a nervous system that is extremely sensitive to stress.  I doubt I will ever taper again if I can restabilise this time.  Thanks for being here for me, everyone.

2001–2002 paroxetine

2003  citalopram

2004-2008  paroxetine (various failed tapers) 
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to

2016  Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct 15mg … slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg 6 Jul 4.1mg 17 Aug 4.0mg  18 Nov 3.8mg
2019  15 Mar 3.6mg  21 May 3.4mg  26 Dec 3.2mg 

2020  19 Feb 3.0mg 19 Jul 2.9mg 16 Sep 2.8mg 25 Oct 2.7mg 23 Oct 2.6mg 24 Dec 2.5mg

2021   29 Aug 2.4mg   15 Nov 2.3mg

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  • Moderator Emeritus

8 mg sounds way too much to me.  What dose are you on currently?  Please consider a much smaller updose.

* NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA *

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED:  (6 year taper)      0mg Pristiq  on 13th November 2021

ADs since ~1992:  25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity)  Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021   LAST DOSE 0.0025mg

Post 0 updates start here    My tapering program     My Intro (goes to tapering graph)

 VIDEO:   Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management

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  • Moderator Emeritus

I tend to agree with CC that 8 may be rather a big jump, which brings the risk of making you feel worse.  Was that the last amount you were feeling relatively okay on, or is there a smaller amount (I can't tell from your sig. but you've probably got a rough idea).  

 

Doing the least movement in dosage but still getting you to a stable place is the thing to aim for. 

 

Take care,

Karen

2010  Fluoxetine 20mg.  2011  Escitalopram 20mg.  2013 Tapered badly and destabilised CNS.  Effexor 150mg. 

2015 Begin using info at SurvivingAntidepressants.  Cut 10% - bad w/d 2 months, held 1 month. 

Micro-tapering: four weekly 0.4% cuts, hold 4 weeks (struggling with symptoms).

8 month hold.

2017 Micro-tapering: four weekly 1% cuts, hold 4 weeks (symptoms almost non-existent).

2020 Still micro-tapering. Just over 2/3 of the way off effexor. Minimal symptoms, - and sleeping well.
Supplements: Fish oil, vitamin C, iron, oat-straw tea, nettle tea.

2023 Now on 7 micro-beads of Effexor. Minimal symptoms but much more time needed between drops.

 'The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists.'  Dr Gabor Mate.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hey Songbird - Peggy had a good point, too.  The prednisone shots could've triggered this wave.

 

When my hubby got prednisone in his shoulder, he had hiccups for 24 hours a day, for 3-4 days.  Nothing stopped them, he couldn't sleep or anything.  And he is NOT in withdrawal, he has a very clean lifestyle.  It would be even riskier for someone in withdrawal and tapering.

 

Prednisone is famous for knocking about mood, sleep - it is an endocrine thing, after all - all kinds of upsets and imbalances when you take it.

 

Please, hold, or if you must updose, please consider a minimal amount.  I agree with CC & others that the zopiclone may have gone paradoxical on you, and may need to be tapered while you hold your Paxil.

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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  • Moderator

Hi Songbird--  I'm so sorry to hear that things are getting worse.  I don't think updosing clear back to 8mg is the answer.  In fact there is a good chance that it will backfire on you and make things worse.  Eleven days into an updose is not nearly enough time for it to stabilize and show improvements, and there are too many other factors that could be triggering things.  Monica had a ton of trouble with zopiclone, nausea, hangover, trouble sleeping, that all improved whey she got off of it.  It's another one of those nasty drugs they hand out like candy. We also get so many reports of prednisone causing trouble here that, that has to be a factor.  I know it's really hard but you have to retreat into survival mode and ride this out.  It's a nasty wave, but it will get better.

 

((((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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Hi Songbird - SO sorry you are feeling this desperate. If I thought it would solve your problem I'd be cheering your updose on but as you no doubt know, it is a total crapshoot as to if or when it helps. I would hate to see you the same or worse AND stuck on a higher dose, after all the effort you've put into tapering. I think the odds are more in favor of this lifting in due time. I know that's easy for me to say (I just had my 11 year anniversary) but I honestly think the safer choice is to stay where you are and ride it out. All things are temporary and this will pass. ((Hugs))

Paxil 20mg 1994-2005
Tried to quit twice, finally did it on my 3rd attempt in 2005.

I went from 20mg to zero in about four months, believing at the time that it was a reasonable taper.  It wasn't.  I suffered mostly emotional symptoms: frequent episodes of "anxious depression" lasting for about 17 months before it got noticeably better.

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I agree with Babs, Brass and the others who asked that you please reconsider. I understand your reasoning is based on your belief that small updoses do not work for you because they haven't in the past, but as I said earlier the way our brain reacts can change over time. The fact is you have not been on 8mg since 2009. So that is seven years during which your brain has acclimated to smaller doses. Updoses are risky, and the larger the updose the bigger risk you are taking that it backfires on you. It is quite likely that you can stabilize on a much smaller dose, it just takes time. 12 days is not enough time to assess whether an updose is going to work. If you are insistent on updosing I think a better plan would be to increase 1mg every 4-6 weeks rather than go all the way up to 8mg in one go. I'm so sorry you have to go through this at all when you have done such a sensible, cautious taper. :(

a.k.a JMarie

Paxil since Mar.1998

2006-2007:40-20mg
2009: 20mg to 14mg 2010: 14mg to 10.5mg 2011: 10.5 to 7.6mg  2012: 7.5 to 6.8mg

2013: 6.7-6.3mg 2014: 6.2mg-5.8mg 2015: 5.7 to 5.15mg 2016: 5.1-4.6mg

1/19/17: 4.5mg 3/17/17: 4.4mg

6/15/17: 4.35mg 8/10/17: 4.3mg

1/29/18: 4.1mg 5/07/18: 4.0mg

7/31/18: 3.9mg

 

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SB any update.

 

Hang in there. Stay strong.

Wishing you stability.

Thought for the day: Lets stand up, and let’s speak out , together. G Olsen

We have until the 14th. Feb 2018. 

URGENT REQUEST Please consider submitting  for the petition on Prescribed Drug Dependence and Withdrawal currently awaiting its third consideration at the Scottish Parliament. You don't even have to be from Scotland. By clicking on the link below you can read some of the previous submissions but be warned many of them are quite harrowing.

http://www.parliament.scot/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01651   

Please tell them about your problems taking and withdrawing from antidepressants and/or benzos.

Send by email to petitions@parliament.scot and quote PE01651 in the subject heading. Keep to a maximum of 3 sides of A4 and you can't name for legal reasons any doctor you have consulted. Tell them if you wish to remain anonymous. We need the numbers to help convince the committee members we are not isolated cases. You have until mid February. Thank you

Recovering paxil addict

None of the published articles shed light on what ssri's ... actually do or what their hazards might be. Healy 2013. 

This is so true, with anything you get on these drugs, dependance, tapering, withdrawal symptoms, side effects, just silent. And if there is something mentioned then their is a serious disconnect between what is said and reality! 

  "Every time I read of a multi-person shooting, I always presume that person had just started a SSRI or had just stopped."  Dr Mosher. Me too! 

Over two decades later, the number of antidepressant prescriptions a year is slightly more than the number of people in the Western world. Most (nine out of 10) prescriptions are for patients who faced difficulties on stopping, equating to about a tenth of the population. These patients are often advised to continue treatment because their difficulties indicate they need ongoing treatment, just as a person with diabetes needs insulin. Healy 2015

I believe the ssri era will soon stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine. Healy 2015

Let people help people ... in a natural, kind, non-addictive (and non-big pharma) way. J Broadley 2017

 

 

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Hi SB, how are you today?  I don't think I can add any more to some very wise advice you have already.  I just wish I could hop in a boat and come and have a cuppa with you and give you a hug (not that that will help you much, but to say my thoughts and prayers are with you and hope you can find some comfort.)  

 

Your taper has been very slow and sensible so even if these are w/d symptoms, they are sure to pass.  Have you had the naseau in the past with the w/d?  It seems it is a common and normal w/d symptom and I had it for a year and then for 7 months the following year, then came indigestion for 2 years before gall surgery.  Could it be your gall has flared up again?  Could it just be the run of the mill stomach upset that comes with w/d? 

 

The other symptom sounds very much like hot flush which I still get on a daily basis (except it doesn't go to my hands and feet as you do) and the internal trembling I have had all along, every day - have you had that before?  These are normal w/d symptoms I gather, also.

 

I see in other people and in myself a sort of panic reaction - where you up-dose and when you get worse, you think you must up-dose again and when you do and get worse, you keep up-dosing - too quickly, before brain/body can adapt, so please consider if you fall into this category.  You have too much to lose, considering you have been doing the right thing for so long and such a risk to keep up-dosing.  I would hope you can eliminate every single other thing you are taking and try and hold and stabilise.  I understand this is easier said than done!  I really encourage you to be patient a bit longer, keep doing the relaxation stuff even if you don't think it is working, it probably is still helping and better to do than not do.

 

Have you tried lemon balm for sleep?  I use what I have growing fresh in my garden, but I think it might upset stomach, but haven't really proved that yet.  Best is to eat what is easily digestible to help with digestion, rest and lie down, even if you don't sleep.  You have gained so much ground, so please re-consider and make a decision that is not rash but take your time - make a plan that you can work on, etc.

 

Take care and remember we are all behind you.  We cannot make the decision for you but support what you think is best. 

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • Moderator Emeritus

Hey Songbird - I'm concerned about you.

 

I have been reading your anxiety blog - it's very clear and well written - I will be referring some of my anxious friends there.

 

What have you decided to do?  How are you?

 

Please let us know!

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Songbird, I'm so sorry to hear about what you're going through. I'm concerned too and hope you post soon to let us know how you're doing and how we can support you. Don't not post because you think you'll be judged poorly for updosing. I've been in the same position and understand completely. You are such a strong and beautiful person and my admiration for you does not change one bit no matter what you decide to do. Don't worry about discouraging people either; I know I thought about that when I crashed. But we all understand that everyone's journey is different. For me it was more valuable to get support than to keep silent so as not to frighten anyone. So many people love you and want to support you. Sending you hugs and healing wishes!

Trying to get off Paxil since 2007. Was tapering by 0.1 mg every 4-5 weeks. Had awful crash in November 2015 at .5 mg; updosed gradually to 2 mg. 

 

Doing better and tapering again, much slower this time.  2016: Dropped from 2 mg to 1.62 mg.  2017:  1.62 mg to 1.2 mg. 2018: 1.2 mg to .76 mg. 2019: .76 mg to .56 mg. 2020: .56 mg to .33 mg. 2021: .33 mg to .13 mg. 2022: .13 mg to .03 mg. 6/12/23 .002 mg. OFF PAXIL 9/4/23

 

Started Klonopin in November 2015 to deal with crash. 1/10/16 started milk titration taper from .5 mg. Finished taper 12/6/17. Still take Klonopin for agoraphobia 2 - 3 times a week. 

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  • 1 month later...

Songbird

We havent heard from you for a while. 

Are you able to give your fans like me an update?

Thought for the day: Lets stand up, and let’s speak out , together. G Olsen

We have until the 14th. Feb 2018. 

URGENT REQUEST Please consider submitting  for the petition on Prescribed Drug Dependence and Withdrawal currently awaiting its third consideration at the Scottish Parliament. You don't even have to be from Scotland. By clicking on the link below you can read some of the previous submissions but be warned many of them are quite harrowing.

http://www.parliament.scot/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01651   

Please tell them about your problems taking and withdrawing from antidepressants and/or benzos.

Send by email to petitions@parliament.scot and quote PE01651 in the subject heading. Keep to a maximum of 3 sides of A4 and you can't name for legal reasons any doctor you have consulted. Tell them if you wish to remain anonymous. We need the numbers to help convince the committee members we are not isolated cases. You have until mid February. Thank you

Recovering paxil addict

None of the published articles shed light on what ssri's ... actually do or what their hazards might be. Healy 2013. 

This is so true, with anything you get on these drugs, dependance, tapering, withdrawal symptoms, side effects, just silent. And if there is something mentioned then their is a serious disconnect between what is said and reality! 

  "Every time I read of a multi-person shooting, I always presume that person had just started a SSRI or had just stopped."  Dr Mosher. Me too! 

Over two decades later, the number of antidepressant prescriptions a year is slightly more than the number of people in the Western world. Most (nine out of 10) prescriptions are for patients who faced difficulties on stopping, equating to about a tenth of the population. These patients are often advised to continue treatment because their difficulties indicate they need ongoing treatment, just as a person with diabetes needs insulin. Healy 2015

I believe the ssri era will soon stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine. Healy 2015

Let people help people ... in a natural, kind, non-addictive (and non-big pharma) way. J Broadley 2017

 

 

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  • 5 months later...

Songbird

Just wanted to say that i am thinking of you at this time.

I hope this post finds you as well as one can hope to be in this difficult time.

I must confess im not a hugger like BM however today i make an exception

(((((hugs))))))))

We miss you SB.

 

nz11

Thought for the day: Lets stand up, and let’s speak out , together. G Olsen

We have until the 14th. Feb 2018. 

URGENT REQUEST Please consider submitting  for the petition on Prescribed Drug Dependence and Withdrawal currently awaiting its third consideration at the Scottish Parliament. You don't even have to be from Scotland. By clicking on the link below you can read some of the previous submissions but be warned many of them are quite harrowing.

http://www.parliament.scot/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01651   

Please tell them about your problems taking and withdrawing from antidepressants and/or benzos.

Send by email to petitions@parliament.scot and quote PE01651 in the subject heading. Keep to a maximum of 3 sides of A4 and you can't name for legal reasons any doctor you have consulted. Tell them if you wish to remain anonymous. We need the numbers to help convince the committee members we are not isolated cases. You have until mid February. Thank you

Recovering paxil addict

None of the published articles shed light on what ssri's ... actually do or what their hazards might be. Healy 2013. 

This is so true, with anything you get on these drugs, dependance, tapering, withdrawal symptoms, side effects, just silent. And if there is something mentioned then their is a serious disconnect between what is said and reality! 

  "Every time I read of a multi-person shooting, I always presume that person had just started a SSRI or had just stopped."  Dr Mosher. Me too! 

Over two decades later, the number of antidepressant prescriptions a year is slightly more than the number of people in the Western world. Most (nine out of 10) prescriptions are for patients who faced difficulties on stopping, equating to about a tenth of the population. These patients are often advised to continue treatment because their difficulties indicate they need ongoing treatment, just as a person with diabetes needs insulin. Healy 2015

I believe the ssri era will soon stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine. Healy 2015

Let people help people ... in a natural, kind, non-addictive (and non-big pharma) way. J Broadley 2017

 

 

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  • 7 months later...
  • Moderator Emeritus

I haven't been here in a long time as I was so sick of it all (drugs, withdrawal, tapering, etc.) and didn't want to think about any of it any more.  I believe anti-depressants have left my nervous system with very little resilience to stress.  I believe my crash last year was not so much directly from withdrawal but from my system being unable to cope with stress.  Very small doses of ADs are not enough to combat the stress, and small updoses have never worked for me.  My GP started me on citalopram and I quickly tapered off the small bit of paroxetine I was on.  I had no problem with the switch and found the citalopram worked well - more subtle than paroxetine, with very mild side effects.  After stabilising I have tapered again and I am currently down to 5.6mg citalopram.

 

I'm now self-employed as a private music teacher, which is a lot less stressful than previous jobs.  Money is tight so there is some financial stress, but the freedom of working for myself feels great.

2001–2002 paroxetine

2003  citalopram

2004-2008  paroxetine (various failed tapers) 
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to

2016  Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct 15mg … slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg 6 Jul 4.1mg 17 Aug 4.0mg  18 Nov 3.8mg
2019  15 Mar 3.6mg  21 May 3.4mg  26 Dec 3.2mg 

2020  19 Feb 3.0mg 19 Jul 2.9mg 16 Sep 2.8mg 25 Oct 2.7mg 23 Oct 2.6mg 24 Dec 2.5mg

2021   29 Aug 2.4mg   15 Nov 2.3mg

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THANK YOU SO MUCH Songbird for coming back to let us know what you have been up to!  I am extremely pleased to hear something more positive for you and relieved that you are okay.

 

I think it is great that you have come back to giver some of us some alternatives.  For myself I have been toying with switching for some time now, but just not confident, having read that despite the favourite Prozac with its long half life, it is also stimulating and I have enough anxiety related symptoms as it is.  The advice also seems to be stay on the drug you are on if possible and taper off that.  I read too many switches that just didn't seem to work, so that put me off.  So now, I have many questions!

  • First, what made you choose Celexa?  I looked up its half life and was surprised to see it is 36 hours, and longer in elderly people, is that right?  That would be one advantage, for sure.
  • Second, do you know if it is calming or stimulating? 
  • Does it come in liquid form?
  • What are the equal amounts of Paxil compared to Celexa?
  • What dose did you go on?
  • How long did it take you to stabilise?
  • What sort of taper are you doing now?
  • What symptoms did you have when you were last on Paxil compared to the symptoms you have now?
  • Did you still experience w/d symptoms when you switched?
  • What side effects did you have from Celexa and for how long?

I certainly wish you all success for the rest of your journey.  You must be doing okay if you are back at work.  There is no way I could work and I cannot still drive a car due to cognitive issues like dementia.

 

 

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hi GrandmaD, nice to see you.  Wow, a lot of questions!  My GP recommended citalopram, and I think one of the reasons I didn't have problems switching was because I was on such a low dose of paroxetine and had been for quite some time.  So it wasn't the same as switching over at a higher dose.  I started at 10mg and then went to 15mg and then 20mg over a couple of weeks.  I find it is not as sedating as paroxetine, but I think it is a little bit calming because I was able to get back to being able to sleep eventually as I stabilised.  Dose equivalence I believe is about the same, i.e. 20mg paroxetine is about equivalent to 20mg citalopram.  I'll try to put my current taper in my signature.  

 

The side effects of citalopram have been more subtle than citalopram.  On paroxetine full dose I felt kind of "high", happy and very confident, which felt great but kind of unnatural at the same time.  I didn't get that effect on citalopram, I still felt like my "normal" self.  I found paroxetine somewhat emotionally numbing, but not nearly so much with citalopram, although it does seem to prevent the extremes of emotion.  Also on paroxetine I felt constant mild derealisation - I never felt quite "here" - but I don't get that with citalopram, I feel really here now.  

 

So far the main withdrawal symptoms have been anxiety, palpitations and difficulty sleeping.  I have been tapering fairly slowly so it's all been quite tolerable so far.  I'm still using a scale (I bought a better quality one) and the pills are so tiny I can't really do smaller drops than about 0.15mg as that's 0.001g on the scale.  I could probably get a liquid made again through the compounding pharmacy that I used for my paroxetine liquid, but it was really expensive, so I'll only do that if I feel like I need to go to very tiny drops.

2001–2002 paroxetine

2003  citalopram

2004-2008  paroxetine (various failed tapers) 
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to

2016  Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct 15mg … slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg 6 Jul 4.1mg 17 Aug 4.0mg  18 Nov 3.8mg
2019  15 Mar 3.6mg  21 May 3.4mg  26 Dec 3.2mg 

2020  19 Feb 3.0mg 19 Jul 2.9mg 16 Sep 2.8mg 25 Oct 2.7mg 23 Oct 2.6mg 24 Dec 2.5mg

2021   29 Aug 2.4mg   15 Nov 2.3mg

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  • ChessieCat changed the title to Songbird: a little about me

Songbird glad to hear from you. I'm so glad you are okay.

 

Just saw your confirmation of survey completion in other thread. Thanks so much for taking the time to do the survey. Im sure your much needed voice will be very valuable.

 

nz11

Thought for the day: Lets stand up, and let’s speak out , together. G Olsen

We have until the 14th. Feb 2018. 

URGENT REQUEST Please consider submitting  for the petition on Prescribed Drug Dependence and Withdrawal currently awaiting its third consideration at the Scottish Parliament. You don't even have to be from Scotland. By clicking on the link below you can read some of the previous submissions but be warned many of them are quite harrowing.

http://www.parliament.scot/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01651   

Please tell them about your problems taking and withdrawing from antidepressants and/or benzos.

Send by email to petitions@parliament.scot and quote PE01651 in the subject heading. Keep to a maximum of 3 sides of A4 and you can't name for legal reasons any doctor you have consulted. Tell them if you wish to remain anonymous. We need the numbers to help convince the committee members we are not isolated cases. You have until mid February. Thank you

Recovering paxil addict

None of the published articles shed light on what ssri's ... actually do or what their hazards might be. Healy 2013. 

This is so true, with anything you get on these drugs, dependance, tapering, withdrawal symptoms, side effects, just silent. And if there is something mentioned then their is a serious disconnect between what is said and reality! 

  "Every time I read of a multi-person shooting, I always presume that person had just started a SSRI or had just stopped."  Dr Mosher. Me too! 

Over two decades later, the number of antidepressant prescriptions a year is slightly more than the number of people in the Western world. Most (nine out of 10) prescriptions are for patients who faced difficulties on stopping, equating to about a tenth of the population. These patients are often advised to continue treatment because their difficulties indicate they need ongoing treatment, just as a person with diabetes needs insulin. Healy 2015

I believe the ssri era will soon stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine. Healy 2015

Let people help people ... in a natural, kind, non-addictive (and non-big pharma) way. J Broadley 2017

 

 

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Nice to see you nz11.  I don't know if I'll be back here much as I still find it a bit stressful to read about people's withdrawal problems.  Maybe I'll just stick to updating my own thread now and then.

2001–2002 paroxetine

2003  citalopram

2004-2008  paroxetine (various failed tapers) 
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to

2016  Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct 15mg … slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg 6 Jul 4.1mg 17 Aug 4.0mg  18 Nov 3.8mg
2019  15 Mar 3.6mg  21 May 3.4mg  26 Dec 3.2mg 

2020  19 Feb 3.0mg 19 Jul 2.9mg 16 Sep 2.8mg 25 Oct 2.7mg 23 Oct 2.6mg 24 Dec 2.5mg

2021   29 Aug 2.4mg   15 Nov 2.3mg

Link to comment

Songbird so nice to see you! I am glad to see you're working again and also that you are tapering and managing well! I don't find this forum easy to navigate anymore and am surprised I even saw that you had updated your journal, but now I'm following you and can hopefully see any more updates. Glad to see you!! You're doing a great job. 

2 Timothy 1-7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Effexor 75mg to 262.5mg 2005-2010 for post partum depression

Started having poop out mid 2010, also switched generic brands, then crashed in Dec 2010 (anxiety/ "terror", intense DR, anhedonia, suicidal ideation, chills, insomnia, horrible intrusive thoughts, disorientation, ect)
Rapid "tapered" from 262.5mg Effexor in 3 months

Tried Celexa,Cipralex, then Paxil to deal with wd(this switching made things worse and added akathesia)

Found online support and started tapering Paxil 7 months after quitting Effexor (at this point was having small windows).

Paxil taper: dropped 10% every 4-8 weeks

Year 1 October 2011 to Nov 2012 20mg to 10mg

Year 2 March 2013 to Feb 2014 10mg to 4mg

Year 3 April 2014 to May 2015 4mg to 1.1mg

Year 4 June 2015 1.1mg , dropping by 10% until .5mg, after then dropped by 0.1mg every 5 weeks until 0.1mg.

Finished! Official last dose of 0.1mg on June 15/16

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Thanks Songbird for your answers to my many questions, I hope you don't mind?

 

I like the idea that the Cito doesn't cause that "high" that Paxil does, perhaps it is a calming SSRI?  If it is a calming type one, it has that in its favour.  How did you find Paxil sedating when you also found it caused you to be "high"?  I always found it very stimulating!

 

When you say you were on Paxil you had the de-realisation, did you mean during withdrawal?  I didn't have it while on it, but most definitely during withdrawal. 

 

It is good to hear you had no trouble switching over, so did you find you have no side effects?

 

I just wonder why you went straight to 10mg and then kept going up to 20mg.  Did you find 10mg didn't work?  I like the idea of switching, but I had thought I could just replace the dose I am on now with the exact same dose of the switched drug.

 

When you switched - how long did it take to stabilise?  When you stabilised, did you feel "good" with no symptoms at all?

 

When you say the main withdrawal symptoms now are palpitations, anxiety and insomnia, are you confident they are w/d symptoms from the Cito or from w/d from the Paxil?  I do recall you had terrible issues with insomnia when you were in Paxil w/d but can't remember that you had palpitations and anxiety.

 

It would appear you can't get liquid.  Like you said, a compound chemist can do it, but they charge an arm and a let to do it!  Do you intend to keep shaving and filing and grinding when you get down real low?

 

Thanks for taking the time to inform me, as your Paxil taper was as difficult and long and slow as mine and I think you were on it a long, long time and about my age, so it is good to talk to you.  

 

The doctor wanted to switch me to Prozac 2 years ago but I wasn't game and finally this year I decided to do it, but instead he wrote a scrip for Cymbalta and Serapax!  When I got home, I saw that Cymbalta had very little half life, so I tore it up, furious!  I looked up Cito half life and it sounds good, at 36 hours, so I am seriously considering a switch again.

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • Moderator Emeritus
On 8/21/2017 at 4:55 AM, aberdeen said:

Songbird so nice to see you! I am glad to see you're working again and also that you are tapering and managing well! I don't find this forum easy to navigate anymore and am surprised I even saw that you had updated your journal, but now I'm following you and can hopefully see any more updates. Glad to see you!! You're doing a great job. 

 

Thanks, Aberdeen!  Yes, I'm doing pretty well now.  Last year was a bit of a horror year, but things got better.  I hope you're doing okay.

2001–2002 paroxetine

2003  citalopram

2004-2008  paroxetine (various failed tapers) 
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to

2016  Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct 15mg … slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg 6 Jul 4.1mg 17 Aug 4.0mg  18 Nov 3.8mg
2019  15 Mar 3.6mg  21 May 3.4mg  26 Dec 3.2mg 

2020  19 Feb 3.0mg 19 Jul 2.9mg 16 Sep 2.8mg 25 Oct 2.7mg 23 Oct 2.6mg 24 Dec 2.5mg

2021   29 Aug 2.4mg   15 Nov 2.3mg

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  • Moderator Emeritus
On 8/22/2017 at 7:02 PM, grandmaD said:

Thanks Songbird for your answers to my many questions, I hope you don't mind?  No I don't mind, but not sure how well I can answer them though.

 

I like the idea that the Cito doesn't cause that "high" that Paxil does, perhaps it is a calming SSRI?  If it is a calming type one, it has that in its favour.  How did you find Paxil sedating when you also found it caused you to be "high"?  I always found it very stimulating!   Paroxetine made me feel very confident and unnaturally cheerful - that was the "high".  I'm guessing it was from an initial increase in dopamine - a bit like a cocaine high, maybe.  With long-term use I believe it eventually causes low dopamine.  Over time the "high" of the first few months was gradually replaced by a feeling of contentment, and increased drowsiness, needing to go to bed very early, like only 8 p.m.!

 

When you say you were on Paxil you had the de-realisation, did you mean during withdrawal?  I didn't have it while on it, but most definitely during withdrawal. 

I'm not sure of the difference because most of the time I was on it, I was trying to withdraw.  Over many years the derealisation may have been there the whole time but I didn't notice it for a while because it was quite mild.  Like many of the long-term side effects, it took me a while to figure out what was going on, as I was kind of drifting along in a kind of contented haze.  It took a while for the light bulb to go on about why I never felt excited about anything any more, why I no longer had an motivation to work on my music, and so on.

 

It is good to hear you had no trouble switching over, so did you find you have no side effects?  I guess it's hard to know, but I didn't notice anything in particular.  I was a bit of a mess and trying to recover, but nothing seemed to get worse after tapering off the paroxetine.

 

I just wonder why you went straight to 10mg and then kept going up to 20mg.  Did you find 10mg didn't work?  I like the idea of switching, but I had thought I could just replace the dose I am on now with the exact same dose of the switched drug.

I started on 10mg and then went to 15mg and then 20mg.  By the time I felt desperate enough to go back to a "full" dose of an AD, I felt so terrble I just wanted to recover as quickly as possible.  At PP they insisted that higher doses didn't work any quicker, but I don't agree, or at least I think they do in my case.  Also, I've never had trouble getting from 20mg back down to 10mg fairly quickly so I wasn't hugely concerned about the higher dose.  It's going under 10mg when problems begin for me and especially under 5mg.  Also, it wasn't a typical AD switch as I was already on a very low paroxetine dose that probably wasn't doing very much at all.  It would have been pointless for me to switch to the same dose of something else as I was in a bad way.  Your situation might be quite different.

 

When you switched - how long did it take to stabilise?  When you stabilised, did you feel "good" with no symptoms at all? I don't know that I've ever had no symptoms at all, but when I'm stable any effects are long-term things and very mild.  It took a few months to stabilise.  If you look in my signature you can see that I went on citalopram at the end of May, tapered the paroxetine by the end of August, and started tapering citalopram in mid-October.

 

When you say the main withdrawal symptoms now are palpitations, anxiety and insomnia, are you confident they are w/d symptoms from the Cito or from w/d from the Paxil?   It's hard to know I guess, but the symptoms eventually ease off after each drop, so I'm picking it's mainly the citalopram for the anxiety and insomnia.  The palpitations could be either I guess, or could be from a nutritional deficiency such as vitamin B12 or magnesium.

 

I do recall you had terrible issues with insomnia when you were in Paxil w/d but can't remember that you had palpitations and anxiety.  I had terrible issues with insomnia and anxiety, and some patches of palpitations that were helped by magnesium supplements.  

 

It would appear you can't get liquid.  Like you said, a compound chemist can do it, but they charge an arm and a let to do it!  Do you intend to keep shaving and filing and grinding when you get down real low?

I'm going to see what happens as my dose gets lower.  If I start having worse w/d problems and want to do smaller drops, then I'll need to get liquid made as my scale won't be able to measure them.  I don't think getting liquid will be a problem, as my GP will prescribe again, and PCNZ were able to make my paroxetine liquid last time, so presumably they'd be able to do the same thing with citalopram.

 

Thanks for taking the time to inform me, as your Paxil taper was as difficult and long and slow as mine and I think you were on it a long, long time and about my age, so it is good to talk to you.  Yes, extremely long and difficult and a blight on my life!  But have learned a lot and "met" some great people.  It's great to talk to you too.  (I've just turned 51, btw.)

 

The doctor wanted to switch me to Prozac 2 years ago but I wasn't game and finally this year I decided to do it, but instead he wrote a scrip for Cymbalta and Serapax!  When I got home, I saw that Cymbalta had very little half life, so I tore it up, furious!  I looked up Cito half life and it sounds good, at 36 hours, so I am seriously considering a switch again.  Yes, back in 2008 when I crashed badly, I saw a pdoc who wanted to switch me to venlafaxine (Effexor).  I said no thanks.  The SNRIs (including Cymbalta) kind of terrify me, as I've read too many horror stories.  I don't want to say citalopram is "good", but it seems to be one that is perhaps not quite as bad as some of the others, and I haven't read as many horror stories about it.  I can't say much about switching as I don't think my switch was typical.  It looks like you're doing a good job of your taper, so it might be better to just keep going the way you have.

 

2001–2002 paroxetine

2003  citalopram

2004-2008  paroxetine (various failed tapers) 
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to

2016  Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct 15mg … slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg 6 Jul 4.1mg 17 Aug 4.0mg  18 Nov 3.8mg
2019  15 Mar 3.6mg  21 May 3.4mg  26 Dec 3.2mg 

2020  19 Feb 3.0mg 19 Jul 2.9mg 16 Sep 2.8mg 25 Oct 2.7mg 23 Oct 2.6mg 24 Dec 2.5mg

2021   29 Aug 2.4mg   15 Nov 2.3mg

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Thanks Songbird for your answers.  I have looked at your signature now and notice you were on both the old and the new for a while and looks like you were able to taper the Paroxetine quite fast.  Is it right to say that 10mg of Cita and then 15mg weren't enough to do the job, so you went up to 20mg?

 

You seem to be coming down from the 20mg quite fast, so that is remarkable in itself.  How are you doing now that you are at 5.6mg?  is that a 10% taper?  I guess you are waiting to see how things go once you get under the 5mg mark.  It would be so lovely for you and so well deserved if it continued to be so much better than the Paxil!

 

You are much younger than me, sorry about that mistake! 

 

My taper started going haywire during my last year of tapering 2015-2016 and took a  severe nose in March 2017 with things ramping up in severity and frequency with old symptoms that had improved getting really bad like when I first started tapering and new symptoms.  I have just discovered that about 6-9 months ago the GSK Aropax I was using was changed unknowingly by me to a generic brand.  This has caused me to have a major melt down and is why I have been seriously considering a switch as you have done and why I have so many questions!

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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  • 1 month later...
  • Moderator Emeritus

Still doing okay, down to 5.3mg.  I have some ongoing withdrawal effects that never seem to go away.  I experience mild anxiety symptoms quite often, especially mornings.  I've had a bad patch of heart palpitations, but magnesium supplements seem to help with that.  I have very little tolerance to stress these days.  Every tiny little stressor winds up my system really badly.  I get in bad moods very easily when anything goes wrong.

2001–2002 paroxetine

2003  citalopram

2004-2008  paroxetine (various failed tapers) 
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to

2016  Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct 15mg … slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg 6 Jul 4.1mg 17 Aug 4.0mg  18 Nov 3.8mg
2019  15 Mar 3.6mg  21 May 3.4mg  26 Dec 3.2mg 

2020  19 Feb 3.0mg 19 Jul 2.9mg 16 Sep 2.8mg 25 Oct 2.7mg 23 Oct 2.6mg 24 Dec 2.5mg

2021   29 Aug 2.4mg   15 Nov 2.3mg

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  • 1 month later...

Sounds like you are coping much better with the Cita taper and going down much faster than you used to.  Congratulations on arriving at 5mg and I wish you the very best for the rest of the journey!  Have you read Claire Weekes books?  There is another one, very similar, on anxiety called DARE.  So far I have found it simple, easy to read and answered many questions for me and although I just started reading, putting it into practice.  It's very good. 

 

I'm glad you found magnesium helps with palpitations.  I have just started back on my lemon balm which I find helps with them and ultimately with sleep as well.  Keep at it fellow turtle!

1995-2007      20mg Aropax/Paxil for pain.  Years of up and down doses

2008                Endep, Lexapro and then Esipram (hell!) CT (oh dear!)

2009                20mg Aropax.  Tried skipping doses for a year (more hell!)

                        2010                10mg.  10% taper.  Lasted 4 months. Crashed again

2011                5% taper. 9mg-7mg (hell got even worse!)

2012                2.5% taper.  6.6mg – 5.6mg (worser still & unbearable)

2013                5% taper.  Big mistake.  5.5mg – 4.6mg  (even worserer)

2014                2.5% taper.  4.9mg – 4.5mg;    2015 2.5% taper 4.4 - 4.0mg

2016                2.5% taper.  3.9mg  Feb 3.8   Mar 3.7  May 3.6   Jul 3.5

2017                2.5% taper.  Jan 3.4;   Mar 3.35;  Apr 3.3; Oct 3; Dec 2.9;

2018                2.5% taper. Jan 2.8; Mar 2.7; Mar: 2.75; Jun 2.7; Aug 2.6; Oct 2.5; Nov 2.4; Dec 2.3

2019                Jan 2.2; Feb 2.1;

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