mary2: Paxil

[Fresh]

Hi mary , it does sound like your symptoms are from tapering too fast a few months ago.

 

"Posted 12 February 2016 - 03:21 AM

Hi

I have had DEPRESSION for 3 weeks. I was actually happy before . Even too happy !! I am on 3 mg of paxiò approx and perhaps made the mistake of reducing every 2.5 weeks."

 

If you re-read the previous page , brassmonkey explained that during the last 5mg of your taper , you need to go

slower than the usual recommended holds of 4 - 5 weeks. Decreasing every 2 weeks has had the delayed effects you're feeling now.

 

Please could you update your signature so readers can see what's going on at a glance.

You may get more responses from readers if there's a simple summary that's easy to follow.

 

bw , Fresh

[AliG]

Hi Mary .  I  agree with Fresh . After reading a little of your history , it sounds like you have tapered too quickly at times. This can, in effect catch up with you , causing more symptoms.  Are you still on 3 mg  ?  When you say, about 3mg , what do you mean exactly ?   An update would be helpful .  

Ali

[mary2]

THANK you both for replying.  thank God you people exist.

 

i have updated the signature.  To avoid the depression I would like to reinstate to even 26 drops (3.25).

Or even more. I just want rid of this depression.  How long will it take to see if works?  

Brassmoney was /is right.   At these low doses , I have had the worst problems. 

 

LOWER doses will be every 6 weeks

[ChessieCat]

Hi Mary,

 

I've asked the other staff members what they think of you doing a small increase in your dose.  It might be a good idea if you wait until  they offer their suggestion/s.

[SquirrellyGirl]

I am curious about your hypo adrenalism.  I'm assuming there were blood tests showing this?  When was the last time you were checked relative to your depression rising up?

 

The reason I ask is that tapering and withrawal can affect the endocrine system.  Mood changes are a side effect of corticosteroids, with the old "tell your doctor if you have one of the following...", depression being one of them.  So, maybe it would be time to get a follow up on that?

 

SG

[brassmonkey]

Hi mary-- I'm sorry to hear that you're so depressed. It is, however, a very common WD symptom and will come and go in a very frustrating manner.

 

As Fresh and AliG have pointed out the taper you did last year was way too fast.  Tapering that fast causes  the delayed symptoms to all pile up on each other until one day they all decide to show up a once.  Then they frequently take the form of anxiety, panic and depression, separately or sometimes all at once.  Doing the small reinstatement is a good way to help calm those symptoms.  You signature is not clear as to when you did that though, would yo please add a date if you could?   It can take several months for an RI to take affect, so even if you did it back in February it's just now getting to the time that it will be showing up.  It would be a good idea to wait a while longer before increasing your dose any more.

 

Once things have calmed down you should hold for a couple of months before starting any taper.

[mary2]

Brassmonkey, I cannot thank you enough.  I have put clearer details in my signature.

 

 RI was in Feb 2016.   IN Dec 2015 I I had to further  dilute the paxil i was taking  because i was getting headaches, my usual sign of WD.    The switch over may have caused the problem.   Or as you say, my fast tapering had caught up with me.

 

Questions: 1) Why do I no longer get headaches which  were a sure sign of WD for me?

 

2) Can a new WD symptom like depression start?

 

3) before the depression I had had 4 months of happiness.  Apparently , happiness/a high is also a WD symptom??

 

4) I have hypo adrenalism , for which i take cortisone.  Could the endocrine system be playing up? 

 

thanks

[mary2]

For squirrely girl

 

The reason I ask is that tapering and withrawal can affect the endocrine system.  Mood changes are a side effect of corticosteroids,

 

You wrote above.  I am officially diagnosed with hydro adrenalism.  Meaning that the adrenals only partly work.  

I have taken cortisone for about 8 years.   I will be seeing my specialist in May and will ask abouut cortision related depression.  I am on 20 mg of cortisone.

what do you know about this  connection? 

thanks

[coldturkmama]

It's WD.

When I first quit I could hardly think of really easy words like broom for example. I'd say, "Hey where's the thing...you know..the sweeper thing??" Lol

[brassmonkey]

Hi Mary-- thank you for adding the details, it really helps.

 

1) Why do I no longer get headaches which  were a sure sign of WD for me?

 

You've just hit a "no headache" patch in your WD.  Headaches are one of those symptoms that are very unpredictable, some of us get them and some don't. They're bad for a while then get better then get worse. I had daily headaches for the last five years I was on my full dose.  As I tapered off they became less and less until now it's just a mild one every few weeks or so. I hope yours don't come back.

 

2) Can a new WD symptom like depression start?

 

At any time. WD symptoms have a mind of their own. They come and go as they please and change at a moments notice for no reason at all.

 

3) before the depression I had had 4 months of happiness.  Apparently , happiness/a high is also a WD symptom??

 

Acute happiness or joy is a symptom.  These drugs work by deadening all emotions, so if an emotion comes back very strongly it is a sign that the brain is sorting things out but hasn't hit the happy median yet.  The switching between acute happiness and depression is often misdiagnosed as bipolar2.

 

4) I have hypo adrenalism , for which i take cortisone.  Could the endocrine system be playing up? 

 

I have read several reports of people being affected by cortisone.  With all the systems of the body being so interdependent I can see this happening.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Mary,

 

These might help:

 

Brain Remodelling

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

[SquirrellyGirl]

I've just seen allusions.  Here's an interesting post by John

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5630-glucocorticoids-receptors/?hl=endocrine

 

SG

[SquirrellyGirl]

I haven't noticed in your thread how long you have been on Paxil, Mary - maybe I missed it. I know of one person who was recently diagnosed as hypER thyroid after coming off mirtazapine.  Strange things happen on and coming off these meds!

 

The post I referenced was just food for thought, but if you read down to Alto's response, there's the voice of reason.  

 

I really don't intend to inflate something that may be trivial, but with the endocrine disturbances that these meds can create, it just got me wondering :-)

 

Certainly withdrawal in its own right will cause depression, and I've been there/done that!

 

SG

[ChessieCat]

Make sure you read down as far as Post #5 by Alto

[JanCarol]

I am curious about your hypo adrenalism.  I'm assuming there were blood tests showing this?  When was the last time you were checked relative to your depression rising up?

 

The reason I ask is that tapering and withrawal can affect the endocrine system.  Mood changes are a side effect of corticosteroids, with the old "tell your doctor if you have one of the following...", depression being one of them.  So, maybe it would be time to get a follow up on that?

 

SG

Good Call, SG - also - I am of mixed feelings about the prescription of hydrocortisone for hypoadrenalism.

 

I have Stage 3/4 adrenal fatigue, and I'm told not to overstimulate my depleted adrenals.  No coffee, no sugar, no hormones.  

 

Giving steroids for hypoadrenalism is like trying to put fire directly in the gas tank of your car.  Possibly dangerous and explosive.  In the US, doctors give DHEA for this - but - they won't do it here in Australia, because they think that even that is too dangerous.

 

Additionally, steroids affect mood, digestion, the whole endocrine mess.  If you can get off the steroids, and start using a wholistic approach to your adrenals - Chris Kresser has a lot of excellent information about adrenal care:  https://chriskresser.com/the-modern-lifestyle-a-recipe-for-adrenal-fatigue/  and here are some other suggestions:  https://www.drlam.com/articles/adrenalexhaustion.asp and http://adrenalfatiguesolution.com/

 

Here's a key question:  did this "hypo-adrenal" condition start before or after you started taking psych drugs?  The many things you take to sleep are a huge drag on your adrenal system - in fact - taking cortisone to jazz up your adrenals, and then benadryl, ambien, valium to sleep is like driving around town with one foot on the brake and one on the accelerator.

 

As Brass said, depression is just another withdrawal symptom.

 

Maybe your withdrawal is done with the headaches, maybe they will be back - but for all of us - the symptoms change as different systems heal from the influence of the drugs.  Without going into it, http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2390-dr-joseph-glenmullens-withdrawal-symptom-checklist/ has a list of many (though not all) potential symptoms.  This month it might be joint pain, next month it may be insomnia, the month after may be flu-like symptoms, or mood disruption or heart palpitations.  Roll the withdrawal dice, and hope for the best.

 

I don't say this to be scary - but to prepare you.  When new symptoms come up - check the list.  If there is something like your symptom on the list, you can say to yourself, "This is just a withdrawal symptom," and be with it.  Wait for it to pass.  If it doesn't pass or becomes unbearable, you can seek medical attention.  But most of us have spent a lot of money on medical tests that come up negative while in withdrawal.

 

How are you feeling after your updose?  Has it eased your symptoms? 

 

What did you do about the benzo / sleep cocktails?  At one point you had gone off them - and I suspect that threw your system out of whack, too.  If you are still on the cocktails, please be aware that all of them - including the diphenhydramine and doxylamine - can contribute to depression.

 

I hope you are feeling better soon.

[JanCarol]

Ah, Mary, I wanted to offer you one more thing.

 

What other things are you doing to manage your mood, cognitive and sleep symptoms?

 

Non Drug Techniques for Coping with Emotional Symptoms

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/604-important-topics-about-symptoms-including-sleep-problems/

 

and 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/forum/8-symptoms-and-self-care/

 

In order to break a habit, you must first replace it with a new one.

 

This goes for psych drugs, too.  Instead of reaching for a tablet to sleep - what are your other options? (for example)

 

I hope you see the sun today.

[mary2]

for brass monkey

thank you for your kind remarks and generosity.

 

I see you are on a low dose and I'd like to follow in your footsteps.  It is true that I RI 'd at the end of February but I feel I had been imprecise previously and also I had tapered too quickly.   I now have WD headaches and a bit less depression but i can't complain in general.   I would like to RI another 10% to have serenity.   I can't live with headaches and why suffer for nothing.  

 

I read your signature : could you tell me what % cuts you are making of pure Paxil?  Also any tips in general regarding supplements .  Does mediattion help you? 

I row and that helps a bit.  

 

I will wait for things to settle for at least 6 weeks.   In December 15 , I had to dilute the liquid paxil in alcohol because diluting it in water left residues.   I realised at Xmas that I was getting sensitive to cuts and needed more precision and , as you say quite rightly more time.

thank you once again.

[mary2]

for Jan carol and squirrely

 

 

thank you for your input.   I did actually go down the wholistic path 8 years ago but I was too far gone .  My hypoadrenalism is almost Addison's which is a fatal disease if not treated.  My niece and nephew both have Addison's .I just couldn't function without cortisone although in future I might try to do sthg about it.

 

I am very interested in ways to deal with stress through mediatation etc and I will read your links today.

thank you 

[mary2]

for Jan Carol

 

I actually managed to get off the cocktail of stuff I was taking last year.   I do take zolpidem from 1/2 mg  because without sleep I woudn't survive . then I will get rid of the zolpidem.   I find you all so kind and constructive in this forum . thank you

[mary2]

for Chessie cat

Alto is the voiice of reason and she is so right.

[brassmonkey]

Hi Mary-- up until recently I've been doing what I call the Brassmonkey Slide Method. It involves doing 2.5% each week for four weeks and then holding an additional two weeks. So I would drop a total of 10% every 6 weeks. It seem to work really well for minimizing the WD symptoms.  When I got to 2mg it became too hard to weigh the doses so I have switched to 8% every 4 to 5 weeks.

 

I take several supplements: fish oil, magnesium, and curcumin.  Other than that I have several prescriptions I take for blood pressure, cholesterol and digestive problems.

 

I have many years of training in a variety of different mind control techniques including meditation that are so ingrained that I do them without thinking. I highly recommend them all. 

[mary2]

dear Brassmonkey, 

thank you for your kindness and expertise.    I like your slide method and I intend to adapt it.  I diluted my liquid paxil to be able to taper better. I have RI ed to 3 mg (24 drops) and willl stay put for a while.

 

FUTURE TAPER:

23 drops will represent a 4.2% drop. 22 drops will represent 4.35% (total of 8.55%).  I could do a 5/ 6 week  taper: every 2 weeks by reducing 4.2% and then after another 2 wks 4.35%. Then hold for another 1/2 weeks.  What do you think? Obviously, future drops are actually slightly higher, percentage wise,  but approx 5% per drop. 

 

SUPPLEMENTS:

how much fish oil do you take? idem magnesium.

please advise me a good make for Curcumin and dose.

 

MIND CONTROL TECHNIQUES

I am more a sports person but I'd like to try some techniques.   Can you indicate a you tube video ?  Something simple to begin with.

I am a jittery, easily bored person.......unfortunately.   I know of a good yoga teacher.  Would that be better?

 

thank you Mary

[brassmonkey]

Hi Mary--

 

That sounds like a very good taper plan. You can also change the dosage by working with the dilution amount too.

 

For the fish oil I take 1600mg twice a day

 

For magnesium I take 600mg at night

 

The Curcumin is Curcumin Phytosome by Jarro Formulas. 500mg twice a day.  This is specifically for inflammation due to osteoarthritis.  Because it's considered an MAOI I will probably have to taper it some time in the future when I decide to come off of it.  It works well, but isn't with out it's draw backs.

 

The relaxing styles of yoga are a very good place to start and there are several good threads here on relaxing techniques you should look into.

[mary2]

Hi everyone

I am interested in leaning how to cook HEALTHY  traditional  ethnic food such as Chinese or Indian or Moroccan etc where there are ingredients like turmeric garlic etc.   I'd like to learn how to cook wok fried veg and add rice.   I like indian lentils with curry and that I can cook but I need more ideas.  If i google

traditional Chinese , I get meat  products.

I'd like to eat my supplements via food, salmon instead of omega, turmeric in indian dishes.  Usually these foods are easy to 

prepare. Any books or you tube to advise?  thanks in advance

mary

[SkyBlue]

Hi Mary-- up until recently I've been doing what I call the Brassmonkey Slide Method. It involves doing 2.5% each week for four weeks and then holding an additional two weeks. So I would drop a total of 10% every 6 weeks. It seem to work really well for minimizing the WD symptoms.  

 

 Brassmonkey, I love it. I think I am going to try the Brassmonkey Slide. That made me laugh, which I realize I frequently forget to do. Strangely (although apparently NOT strangely) I am finding that even a ~10% cut (1.2 to 1.1 mg) of Paxil is no picnic. 

 

Mary, that sounds like a great idea--getting nutrients from food whenever possible. I'm not much of a cook but I will sometimes just sprinkle some turmeric on baked chicken.

[mary2]

Hi Brassmonkey

I need advice || 

I RI'd to 24 drops last week  mainly because i have this terrible sense of APATHY .    I've had it for 3 months now and I would RI  again if I could get rid of it.   I am causing problems in the family with this depression, if that's what it is.

 

I do exercise and it makes me feel good for a while.   I sleep and read a lot to disappear from myself.  I went to a breathing course and disappeared during it cos I couldn't bear the non staticness of it.  Physical exercise helps me breath me.better.

 

It has been a too long window..  What do you think?  If RI helped I would do it. .thanks 

[mary2]

My sympomts are :

 

apathy, neuro emotions,, wanting to escape ,  wanting to be dead..  slight panic now.   I try to just ACCEPT the status quo and wait .  But this apathy doesn't seem to finish.  thanks

[Fresh]

Hi Mary , just to make this discussion easier , let's all use the same terminology.

 

"Reinstate" is when you've been taking zero , and you begin to take a drug again.

"Updose" is whn you increase the amount of the drug you're taking.

 

" 2.625MG =29/1/16 REINSATATED TO : - 2.75 MG = 23/2/16 - - 2.50MG= 22/3/16 FOR A FEW DAYS BUT REINSTATED 2.75MG (22 DROPS).

RI 'd TO 3MG (24 DROPS) 8/4/16

 

So you've been updosing since 2 Feb , is that correct? And are you asking if bumping up the dose a bit will help?

 

What effect have you noticed in the past week since increasing from 2.75mg to 3mg on 8 April?

[mary2]

Thank you for replying. Updosing yes.Sorry I'm using UK dates. End of February not beginning.

I haven't noticed the APATHY thing change at all. I force myself to react . So basically no change . In fact I feel panicky now.

[mary2]

I usually get satisfaction out of certain things. But now just a sense of refusal.

[Fresh]

Ok , so you updosed last week and feel it hasn't helped? It might help to bump it up a bit more.

You are familiar with how well you used to feel before the tapering went too fast.

 

What dose are you thinking to go to? We sometimes suggest going back to the last dose you felt

stable on , what was that?

[mary2]

Fresh thanks . Probably 28/30 drops. 3.5 mg. I'll try that and see what happens.

[mary2]

thanks Fresh you have been very helpful.  I feel so looked after here.  

[brassmonkey]

Hi Mary--  I'm sorry to hear that you don't care anymore.  That's a tough symptom for passionate people to handle.  It's very common, one of the most common symptoms of these drugs, both as a side effect and as a WD symptom.  It is entirely drug induced and not dependent on the dose that you're taking.  So increasing your dose to try and get rid of it isn't going to work and could in fact make it worse.  I found learning to live with it was the best solution, as fighting it caused too much stress.  Accepting the fact that, for the time it takes to get through WD and recovery, our lives are limited to what we can do and not what we want to do is one of he hardest lessons we face.  I'm not saying to give up and give in, but rather to Acknowledge, Accept, and Float.  Acknowledge that the symptoms are there and they are real, explore them and get to know them.  Accept that they are not going to harm you and that there is nothing you can do about them.  Let them Float off as you get on with your life as best as you can.

 

This is a long slow frustrating and frequently painful process, but it only lasts for a while and then it's over with.  Telling young people that it only takes a year or so for things to clear up is like giving them a life sentence of suffering.  But in terms of a life time a year or two don't even count.  The skills learned to get through this will give you an inner strength that will last all of that lifetime.  When this is all over, nothing will ever seem hard again.

 

I know that's not what you wanted to hear, but we're stuck in this situation by no fault of our own and have to get through it as best as we can, and when we do we will be a lot better off for having gone through it.

[SkyBlue]

Hi Mary,

 

I'm sorry to hear you are suffering. 

 

A couple of thoughts: 

1. It's cool how you can see that physical exercise helps you more than breathing exercises. You are the expert on what works for you! It sounds like you are also proactive with healing/coping strategies, which is admirable. 

 

2. The apathy will pass -- I had a wave of it and I agree, especially difficult for a usually-passionate person. I don't know how I got through it other than waiting; support of family; trying to have that mindfulness ("This is withdrawal" -- meanwhile my mind is screaming, it might be withdrawal but it really might be THE END of all that is good in life.). Doesn't it feel scary, though? 

 

3. Let us know how the up-dosing goes.

 

Hang in there. Hugs.

[mary2]

thanks for such kind words everyone.   

 

Brassmonkey,  why do you say my symptoms won't be resolved by updosing? and could in fact worsen the situation.?   Is 3 months not a long time to have apathy? .  It is not just apathy but the following:

 

 

depression/

desperation to escape when i don't like something/

extreme feelings/slight panic/

suicidal feelings

the uselessness of life

 

I try to be constructive ,   I often just want to go back into bed in the morning and so so.  

 

I'd like to updose.   if this would get rid of the crippling symptoms.   On the other hand , I do know exactly what you mean when you say ACCEPTING .  I have had no choice till now but accept.  

help