mary2: Paxil

[mary2]

>I have just re read your reply.  I can't say that I would sum up my feelings with:

"I don't care" mode.

 

I have this visceral refusal to do anything .   I don't WANT  to cook or tidy.  Normal stuff seem to be a mountain.   In fact I have to persuade myself to do the simplicest

(spell)  things.   I battle with myself constantly.  It is not a passive feeling but active.  The pleasures I had no longer attract me.   I have a lot of these neuro feelings described.

I' m sure I have bored everyone with the details .   BUT  one positive thing I will say and that is that this is the first major 

WD symptom.   I have been very lucky till 3 mths ago. and above all to have found this forum.

AND yes, WD  at low levels is much worse low down.   

[brassmonkey]

Hi Mary-- I was specifically addressing the issue of the apathy.  The other five symptoms that you listed possibly could be helped by a small updose, but it is too early to tell even from the updose you did ten days ago.  Nothing in this process can be rushed.

 

As for the apathy, that's the way these drugs work.  They don't cure anything or cheer us up, they work by making it so we don't care about anything.  So if you don't care about things, taking more meds that make you not care only increases the problem.  Apathy is one of the longest lasting of all the symptoms. For me is started before my second prescription updose and continued well into my fourth year of tapering.  If you read through other threads you will find that it is a very common theme.  If the apathy is the only really bad symptom you're experiencing that's wonderful.

[mary2]

Brass monkey I will hold still for the moment then .

Perhaps apathy is not the right word. I don't feel passive. I have more of a REFUSAL to want to do anything. Life is depressing and doesn't stimulate me. Life seems a mountain. Thank you as always.

[SkyBlue]

 

AND yes, WD  at low levels is much worse low down.   

 

Yes --- whyyyyyy? (Well, we know why. If you haven't -- check out the thread on Why Taper? … SERT Capacity 

which shows that the drugs have a huge effect even at the lower levels. 

 

But it's so counter-intuitive. I thought the lower down I got, the easier it would be. 

 

Hang in there, Mary. Message me any time. I believe this will be, although uncomfortable, temporary for you. 

[mary2]

Gosh. Great link. I'll get back to you sky blue.

[SkyBlue]

Sounds good! 

[mary2]

Well guys. I finally find pleasure in my usual things.i can't thank you enough. The worst WD symptom in the last 3 months. Thank you all so much. WiTHOUT you I would have been lost.

[SquirrellyGirl]

Woohoo, blowing a horn for ya!  That is wonderful news, Mary!

 

SG

[SkyBlue]

That is so great to hear, Mary!!!! Keep us posted!  

[mary2]

I believe I up dosed to 3.375 mg (27 drops)about the 23 April. Because the 10 % drops seem to be severe at low levels, I was thinking of following brass monkey 's slide method. I have measurement problems. The liquid paxil is very concentrated and I've diluted it by 8. Ie 1 part paxil to 7 parts alcohol. 27 drops to 26 represents 3.7% drop and 26 drops to 25 represents a 3.85%. 25 drops to 24 =4%. I could reduce every 2 weeks and hold for 2 more . I can't manage to split the cuts into 2.5%. It would mean diluting to 54 drops and it would be too easy to err with all those drops.

So, I would be reducing by about 7 % every 4 weeks(+2 weeks) which is perhaps preferable after what's happened.

What do people think?

[mary2]

Actually the percentage cuts get higher as I decrease so I get nearer the 10 % as I go down.

Brass monkey how do you manage to get 2.5%cuts?

I do have 20mg tablets but I wouldn't know how to dilute them.

Guys thank you for listening to me.

[brassmonkey]

I was working with the powder from a 40mg tablet.  It worked really well until I got to 2.1mg, then the scales wouldn't weigh small enough amounts.  Since then I have been working in 1mgpw increments.  By mixing and matching those I could keep the total for each slide under 10%.  I did several slides with three steps, then an bunch with two steps and finally I can only do one step. My last drop went over 10% and it will be increasing with all the rest of my drops.  It's just the physical limitations of the scales and the tiny amount of the powder.  It is not too concerning to me as I only have three drops left and they don't seem to have much effect.

[mary2]

Hi everyone. I have noticed lately that I find it very hard to REMEMBER and concentrate. I'm 60. The effect of these tabs or age?. I have taken benzos on off for 25 years. I am on 3.3 paroxetina and 1/2 mg zolpidem. Do brain cells get destroyed for ever? How long will it take to normalise ?

[mary2]

Brass monkey

 

"1mgpw increments".

. I can't work out your reductions. What did you do AFTER the powder stage to reduce? At LOW stages? Liquid? Can you describe fully.

[mary2]

I have access to 2 sources of paroxetina :

 

My 20 mg of paroxetina tablets actually weigh 350 mg. How does one polverise it?

 

Then I have concentrated paxil liquid which I'm using ,diluted 8 times.

[brassmonkey]

Hi Mary-- I use 40mg paxil tablets that weigh 500mg each (500mgpw, mg pill weight). This makes it so 1mg of pill contains 0.08mgai (active ingredient) 40/500=.08 I use two large spoons to crush the tablet into powder.  I then weigh out the needed amount of powder for the correct dose. I'm still using powder and will for the rest of my taper.  The scales only weigh by 1mg increments. .011,.010,.009 etc. So I can only make reductions of that amount of powder. Last week I was taking 9mgpw (.009 powder weight) which gives me a dose of 0.72mgai. This week I dropped to 8mgpw which gives me a dose of 0.64mgai. Six weeks from now I plan to drop to 7mgpw for a dose of 056mgai. Because of the limitation placed by the scales these drops are bigger than, and are getting larger each time than, the recommended 10%.  But when we get to the very end we don't have a lot of choice.

 

Hope that helps. It's a really confusing business.

[mary2]

Hi guys

I just wanted to touch ground. I'm at about 3.5mg of paxil and decreasing VERY ASL8WLY. however I feel depressed . No longer the non pleasure but kinda of the 8riginsl depression. I think that biologically I have this sadness . I have no reason to complain. How do you deal with endemic depression ?

[mary2]

Very slowly.

Original

[brassmonkey]

Hi Mary-- congratulations on getting to 3.5mgs.  I was so excited when I finally got that far.  General depression is a very common symptom during WD. I wouldn't worry too much about it.  You're coming into the area of the taper where things can be very sensitive, small changes in dose can cause big reactions and symptoms can be a lot more unpredictable.  Don't let that discourage you or frighten you, just continue to take it slow and easy and you'll be fine. 

 

For the depression I experienced at lower the doses I relied on AAF to get me through.  Acknowledge, Accept, Float. Acknowledge that the depression is there, explore it and get to know it.  Accept that it's not going away anytime soon and there isn't much you can do about it. Let the depression Float off as you get on about your life as best as you can.

 

(((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))

[mary2]

dea brass monkey

yes, i will AAF, as you suggest.  you are an inspiration .  thank you for your kind words.

[mary2]

What is the difference between paxil and valium? Lately ,in spite of small cuts I get headaches and very anxious. I don't sleep well. I've just taken a few drops of value and I feel better.

I don't know if my basic anxiety is back as I reduce paxil or its the chemical. Could I substitute the remaining 3mg of paxil with valium?? I have been dogged for the last 6 mths with problems with paxil. Thanks

[mammaP]

Paxil and valium are very different drugs, and switching to valium from paxil will not solve anything. 

Feeling better after one dose of valium feels amazing but in no time at all you will suffer interdose withdrawal, and soon be addicted to valium and have paxil withdrawal too. How long have you been taking valium, and what doses?  It is important to include it in your signature. 

 

I haven't read through your whole thread but from your signature can see that you have been updosing to get some relief. I would just hold where you are and let your nervous system stabilise, Brass is right that the lower doses can be difficult and cuts need to be much smaller with more time between them. In the meantime his AAF advice really is the best. This will pass but will take time to settle, get through each day and take good care of yourself. This is not permanent, it is withdrawal and will get better as your brain and nervous system stabilise. Valium might help in the short term but would undoubtedly cause more problems long term. 

[Shep]

Hi, Mary. 

 

As mammaP said, switching to Valium will not solve anything. Valium also carries the heavy weight of dependency. 

 

Are you still taking Ambien? You mentioned that earlier in your thread. 

 

Please note that Ambien is similar to Valium in withdrawal. Both drugs can cause dependency in as little as 10 days, and the withdrawal can be just as severe as antidepressant withdrawal. 

 

You may wish to start a thread on the members-only forum for more information specific to Valium and Ambien:

 

Members only benzo forum

 

The Ashton Manual will give you more information on what to expect with benzo withdrawal:

 

The 2002 Ashton Manual is at http://www.benzo.org...anual/index.htm

 

The April, 7 2011 Ashton Manual Supplement is at http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashsupp11.htm

 

Sending healing vibes your way. I hope you feel better soon. 

[mary2]

Thank you so much for reply. I have substituted ambiem with 1/2 mg of valium for the moment. It reduces anxiety and has removed the zaps. You people are incredible. And I'm trying to DISTRACT myself,the most important thing of all.

[Altostrata]

mary, what is your daily drug schedule? Please give times and dosages.

 

I see you are taking cortisone. If I were you, I would look into side effects from that drug. It could be your body is not reacting to it the way it used to, or that you don't need as much as you did when you started taking it.

[mary2]

Altrostrata

Yes. You are right about cortisone. Om My last visit it seemed that I no longer needed so much cortisone. In Sept I'm seeing specialist.

I'm taking 2mg of valium and I sleep all night. Not so with ambiem. I'll change my signature. I need to find side effects of cortisone. You guys are incredible. Thank you.

[mary2]

How do I change my signature ?

[ChessieCat]

Hi Mary,

 

Top right of screen, beside your name when you are logged in there is a small arrow head.  Click on that then click on My Settings.  On the new page at the left of screen click on Signature.

[mary2]

Altro strata. I've looked at side effects of plenadren (cortisone). Tiredness and joint swelling definitely

Are with me now. Also, slight weightgain. No side effect though of depression. What made you think cortisone was the problem? I'm curious.

[mary2]

Altro strata. Is my signature clear now? I put times and dosages.

[JanCarol]

Hey Mary - I've been suspicious of the plenadrin/cortisone from the first time I read your thread.  And I suspected that your readings would change as your dosages of Paxil went down.  

 

I'll be eager to hear more - perhaps you can teach us something here:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5630-glucocorticoids-receptors/  Please let us know what your specialist says.  Perhaps you are still hypo-adrenal, but not Stage IV anymore?

 

I've just re-read your thread, and feel compelled to remind you that all of your fast reductions - only stopped in December.  I know that 9 months ago sounds like a long time - but in Paxil land, it is a short stint.  If you had quit CT, it might take 2 years for all of the symptoms just to show up - and even longer to resolve.

 

So be patient and gentle with yourself.  You described Anhedonia Apathy Demotivation which is something many of us have been through.  You may also wish to read more here:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1203-disconnect-between-interest-and-actionmotivation/ which has a more philosophical discussion of how people deal with demotivation, apathy and anhedonia.

 

Maybe, it's just your body telling you that doing is not what it needs to heal.  

 

I know you are fairly active - and have remained active throughout withdrawal - but the brain is a major organ (where would we be without it?) and healing it - along with your entire nervous system - and your gut - well.  It's a big job.  The problem is, you cannot see it!

 

If your leg was broken, you wouldn't be rushing out to do shopping, housework, chores, or even going to get exercise!  And a leg heals faster than Paxil.  You were on Paxil for how long before starting your too-fast taper?

 

You didn't slow down until December - and really - you didn't stop tapering then.  Now you keep wanting to up-dose, and remember:  Change in dose is more traumatizing than too-much or too-little dose.  It's making the changes that is so hard on us.

 

Bubble said it like this:  

 

I also firmly believe it's this stability that heals and not a particular dose. 

 

From <http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5026-pokeshaw-tapering-off-lexapro/page-6>

 

So please, hold.  Maybe for 6 months, maybe more.  

 

Would you like a more "active" non-drug antidepressant?  How about Chi Gung?
 

I like this guy:

Qi Gong: 7 Minutes of Magic for Health

 

But if you go to YouTube and search for Chi Gung, Chi Gong, Qi Gong, and/or Qi Gong - you will find thousands of videos to practice to.  Even better if you can put them on a tablet and go out and stand on the grass while doing it.  (studies show that touching earth and grass is nearly as effective as antidepressants in lifting mood!)

 

I'm not big on sitting in lotus position and breathing or chanting Om, I prefer more active styles.  Did you say you had access to a good yoga teacher?  Again - as long as you don't push too hard (more relaxation style yoga than "power yoga") - it should bring you into better touch with your body, and strengthen your intuition, breath, and connection between your brain and body.

 

I have a DVD set which is yoga specifically for depression, called:  "Life Force Yoga to Beat the Blues" by Amy Weintraub.  Now we Aussies don't need PAL format here (we have multi-format, multi-region players - one of the small benefits at being at the ends of the earth) - so I don't know if it is available to you.  But I highly recommend it, or another style like it.  There are a few small videos on the web, but she doesn't give too much of it away, since she wants you to buy the program.

 

You can do this!  It does get better!

 

But it also takes time (it will seem like too much time, but better to take time, than to take health!), patience, diligence, and you need to resist the urge to medicate every wave.

 

Please hold your Paxil until symptoms of depression subside.  In a few months, you can consider addressing the Ambien, which is destabilising, too.  But mostly, keep it simple, stable, and slow.  I would hold Paxil for at least six months, if I were in your shoes.

 

And it does get better.  I hope you see the sun today!

[JanCarol]

Hey Mary!

 

I just posted that, then went to watch a video for myself, for my own learning and enrichment.  It was so good, I came back here to share it with you!

 

http://upliftconnect.com/watch-science-behind-yoga/

 

Enjoy!

 

I hope you see the sun today!

[mary2]

 I've been suspicious of the plenadrin/cortisone from the first time I read your thread.  And I suspected that your readings would change as your dosages of Paxil went down.  

For JAN CAROL

"I'll be eager to hear more - perhaps you can teach us something here:  http://survivinganti...oids-receptors/  Please let us know what your specialist says.  Perhaps you are still hypo-adrenal, but not Stage IV anymore?"

 

I'm intrigued by this info.  In the last 30 years I have suffered from stress/depression  which brings on chronic tiredness, low blood pressure.  Then it would go away when i normalised.   I was then  diagnosed 9 yrs ago with secondary hypo adrenalsm, ie I produce cortisol  but not enough.   I wasn't sleeping and I took ambiem and paxil for depression.   Recently , I have noticed the chronic tiredness come back (a typical side effect of plenadren).  BUT cortisol tests done 2 months ago show strange readings , highish readings of cortisol/cortisone.  after plenadren, suggesting that my body IS producing more of its own cortisol.  

 

You seem to be saying that depression or anti depressives  can interfere with the endocronological (spell) system, right? 

I am curious to have new tests done.   

thank you 

[JanCarol]

Yes.  As far as I can tell, it can mess with thyroid, adrenal, gonadal, digestion, all kinds of juicy stuff that is nowhere near our brains!

 

We are scarce on proof - nobody is running studies on this - but we do have evidence, story after story of people who are dysregulated by the drugs.  (not just antidepressants, either, but most of the psych drugs seems to have flow-on effects that are completely not considered by the medical profession).  

 

So which came first?  The Paxil, or the adrenal dysregulation?  Are you off the plenadren now?

 

I also believe that there are nutritional deficiencies which make us more susceptible to these "crashes," and I am a practitioner of supplements (even though I only rarely recommend them here).

 

I'm glad you are going to hold for awhile.  I think that will serve you, and then you can taper from a position of stability and strength.  Then, you will be in control of the drug instead of the other way around!

 

I hope you see the sun today!

[mary2]

DEAR whoever is out there.....I am holding on 24 drops , which is where I was 6 mths ago. I need to get to a stability point. my biggest symptom at the moment is TIREDNESS. I am so tired that I have to take 2.5mg of zolpidem to fall asleep , If I don't sleep, i can't work the day after, so I get depressed, Vicious circle.

I had my adrenals checked; I am underproducing cortisol, so I have to continue the cortisone.

I am HOPING that it is a withdrawal symptom. So, that i have hope left.... I am 60 and I feel I have Alzeihemer's, hoping that that is also withdrawal. Anyone these drugs do something to the brain.

Thank God that you guys exist with more experience than me.

[mary2]

jan carol

ive just re read your post on apathy, lack of happiness, stuff and the link. and yes, i feel better that other people have been through these things. Altostrata and rhiannon complained about similar things.

I will definietely (SPELL) stay on same dose, not updosing or downdosng for some time.

there is too much going on. thank you for all info.