UselessSpork: Mirtazapine withdrawal, from 45 mg down to 3.9 mg

[UselessSpork]

Yep i know exactly what you mean. i have only had issues for a year and a half and i already forgot these normal emotions lol.

[UselessSpork]

So it's been about 2 months now since i reinstated, overall it has helped quite a bit over the time i was trying to huff it at 0 mg (after the fast taper) I cant remember if am back to how i felt prior to tapering.. i still get some crappy waves. im not sure if i will ever get stable enough to not have these crappy days... so my question is. should i keep waiting before i restart a super slow taper? or could i just go for it now.

[Fresh]

There are no set rules here Spork . . . you've given it a good chance.    I err on the side of caution , and would most likely

wait another month if I were in your shoes ( you know I waited 8 months after a major shake-up before starting to taper).

 

Just curious:  how long do the bad waves last.   Hours , minutes , all day?   Helpful if you can elaborate.  

 

Thanks ,  Fresh

[dalsaan]

how frequent are the crappy waves?

 

Fresh and I are trying to get a sense of how stable or otherwise you are.   Holding longer never hurts but tapering prematurely can

 

D

[UselessSpork]

Maybe on average i have a crappy wave every 5 days or so. then 1 or 2 bad days.. or it goes 1 bad day, then a good, then another bad. there still isn't really a pattern, yeah i could hold on for another month. I  just want to get off them because they damage your brain the longer you are on them, but i guess i wont rush it. I learned my lesson the first time. And keep in mind my idea of a "crappy wave" is nowhere near as bad as some of the waves i hear about on this forum, but its still kind of awful.

[UselessSpork]

Well i think im gonna try tapering down from 3.9 to 3.5 tonight with my scale. i still get these waves that last for a few days, and it doesn't seem to be getting a whole lot better than that. i have been back on for around 70 days now, so ill taper down... see how i react. My question is.. why is my brain taking sooooo long? why am i still having waves and windows when im not withdrawing anymore, i have been back on for 70 days. is this just normal fluctuations that happen because my brain is on these drugs? i noticed back way back when i was on 45 MG (before i did any tapering) that there was a similar pattern. i would have some good days then BAM a few bad.. then good again .. and rinse and repeat.

[UselessSpork]

Is it fair to call them windows and waves anymore? how can i still be withdrawing while i have been back on for 70 days >.< granted ...the windows and waves pattern has stabilized moreso since restarting.. but its still there, so whats going on exactly? i noticed that way back (prior to any tapering) when i was on 45 MG, that i would have a similar windows and waves pattern. i would have some decent to good days for a while then i would hit some bad days out of the blue then go back to decent to good days again, rinse and repeat. Although it was most stable than how i am currently, the frequency of the 'waves' was less. so could anyone shed some light on this?

[freespirit]

Hi Spork,

 

I'll leave the more technical questions for someone who knows more...but when I read your post, it made me think back to when I was on mirt. I think I had the pattern you describe and it would hit for no reason I could figure out. Are the waves more physical or emotional or both? I've noticed a pattern where things are often worse physically, then the emotional wave will hit sometime later on. but I'm guessing that every person is different.

[UselessSpork]

For me its almost zero physical symptoms, aside from a woozy/dizzy feeling.. its pretty much 100% emotional. Mostly anxiety.. sometimes depression, and other fun stuff like irritability and restlessness.

[Narcissus]

 

 

how can i still be withdrawing while i have been back on for 70 days >.< 

The term "withdrawal" can be confusing because it makes it seem as if the symptoms experienced are simply the body longing for the drug, whereas symptoms can persist long after reinstatement.  These symptoms seem to have more to do with the destabilizing effects of tapering than with the presence or absence of the drug in the system.  The symptoms heal not with the reinstatement of the drug (though reinstatement can help) but with the passage of time.  "Windows" and "waves" refer to the experience of regaining nervous system stability, and it's not at all surprising that waves have been stirred up from your taper.  I hope things settle down soon, Spork.

[UselessSpork]

Thanks alot for that, it clears up some confusion

[Hopefull]

Hi Spork,

Things will improve, beleive me. I am in a window phase at the moment, but I have been down , the "crap", shoute. Lol. I have noticed a pattern with tappering, WD symptoms. So don't loose hope. I don't have physical symptoms so much either, it is all psychological. Time does become your friend. Trust me you will get there. Keep going! cheers.

[freespirit]

The emotional symptoms are tough to handle Spork. Are you finding anything that helps you ride through those? For me, it's harder to separate those and identify them as wd...I'm more likely to think they are actually me and not the destabilized nervous system. Are you managing to sleep okay?

[UselessSpork]

Naw, i have tried numerous things, but nothing works for relieving any emotional problems. i just gotta ride it out when it happens. my sleep is fine, and for me its pretty easily to tell what emotions are caused by my messed up brain, Those days where i just feel bad.. just because, no trigger, no reason.

[freespirit]

Sometimes riding it out is the best possible solution. It's good you're able to sleep though...that makes a big difference in being able to handle the emotional part. Did you go ahead with your taper?

[UselessSpork]

Yeah i did, been having some crappy days. I started my taper on a crappy day though, so it could be im still just riding a stupid wave. fun stuff right here!

[freespirit]

AD, the gift that keeps on giving. I hope that things ease off again for you.

 

I think I shared a guided imagery link on my thread...but here's a link to some free ones that can be listened to or downloaded. https://healthy.kaiserpermanente.org/health/care/!ut/p/a0/FchBDoMgEADAt_iAzYZEYfFmhH6hhdsGiZIIGELt99seZ9DjC33hO-3cUy18_uxCLD22md9bqnCnLVZ8okd_Nd4zoysVAocj_o9bT-GM6IzVap2MBamlBCGsgEWPBohoUkKp8UErXjnTZxmGL2IKPpI!/

I've been using some of these for a few years and like them. There have been some benefits from listening...maybe worth a try??

 

Hang in there Spork...windows will come again too.

[UselessSpork]

thanks Free, today was not bad. i always know that windows will come... but its like my brain literally forgets everytime i go back down. like how many times do i have to remind myself until it sticks? lol.. stupid stuff.

[freespirit]

You're not alone in that respect. It's easy to forget that anything else in possible, when in those deeper places. My meditation teacher used to say that the brain was like Velcro for difficult experiences and Teflon for the good ones. It's part of our survival mechanism I think..focusing on the bad helped us survive..but is often not to useful in modern life.

 

I'm working with trying to refocus my mind more often on what's good...easier to do when in a window..I think over time, it will help me go there more often when things are tough too. Enjoy your window...knowing there are more to come.

[UselessSpork]

You speak the troof! you may have a cookie you hear that Velcro brain?

[UselessSpork]

Yeah, apperently my stupid brain is so ridiculously sensitive to any change. just going from 3.9 to 3.5 mg has made the quality of the last 5 days go down, either that or i got a long low grade wave at the same time? ehh i doubt it. got the low grade depression going on, brain feels sluggish and i feel woozy/head fullness and i don't feel like doing all that much.. the norm for the past month has been anxiety, guess its back to this ****... wooot =/. why did i have to get stuck with such a useless sensitive brain, i really dont want to taper off for 10 goddamn months or more. It just seems ridiculous seeing as how i was only on it for 8 months before i started my previous fast taper. i almost feel like doing this part faster (despite my stupid brain acting up) then giving myself alot of time to stabilize at like 0.5 mg or whatever my final dose may be. I just want off this garbage so bad... my brain cant heal at all while im still on this ****.

[freespirit]

It's hard not to become frustrated and impatient. It's perhaps worth remembering you were on a higher dose of the drug and came off pretty quickly. Your system is likely still dealing with that and hence, reacting more to smaller changes. I'd encourage you not to start disliking your brain! It's just doing what it will do, which is attempting to bring balance back..it just doesn't feel that great in the process.

 

I know a lot of people feel they can't heal while still on the drug. I felt that too. But, we don't know that for sure. I believe the things I did while withdrawing did help in the healing process though. One of the main factors was that it gave me back some sense of having  efficacy when things get difficult. It took me away from relying on one thing, or from feeling helpless when the **** hits the fan. In the short term, I don't always get relief from meditation, exercise, or whatever I chose to do...but I sense there is some underlying ground being built there..so that I don't fall in the holes like I used to. And it's part of believing I'm worthy of feeling better than I have in the past.

 

I forget whether you've tried any supplements?

[UselessSpork]

Thanks again for the reply, ill keep on keepin on, like i always do. It's just so damn difficult not to get impatient >.< .. anyways yeah i have tried supplements, they all did nothing or made me worse off. for me its a total crap shoot with supplements. i do take magnesium at night.. just for shits i guess. I did notice 5htp + magnesium helped me fall asleep when i was struggling at zero MG... but as for helping my mood i haven't found anything so far.

[Petunia]

Maybe on average i have a crappy wave every 5 days or so. then 1 or 2 bad days.. or it goes 1 bad day, then a good, then another bad. there still isn't really a pattern, yeah i could hold on for another month. I  just want to get off them because they damage your brain the longer you are on them, but i guess i wont rush it. I learned my lesson the first time. And keep in mind my idea of a "crappy wave" is nowhere near as bad as some of the waves i hear about on this forum, but its still kind of awful.

 

I'm sorry you didn't get a response after posting this, before deciding to cut again. I would have agreed with you that more holding was in order, for another month, or two or three... whatever it takes really.  Now I see that since making a small cut, your symptoms have got worse again, so if I were you, I would continue to hold where you are and not continue tapering as you suggested you might.

 

 

 It just seems ridiculous seeing as how i was only on it for 8 months before i started my previous fast taper. i almost feel like doing this part faster (despite my stupid brain acting up) then giving myself alot of time to stabilize at like 0.5 mg or whatever my final dose may be. I just want off this garbage so bad... my brain cant heal at all while im still on this ****.

 

Eight months on this kind of medication is enough time for significant changes in the brain to take place, unfortunately, some people have a harder time coming off these drugs. If the dose you are on now is lower than what you were originally on, then your brain *is* healing, or rather its slowly reverting back to its default mode of operation.  Unfortunately, because of the too fast taper, your nervous system also has to recover from the shock, and resulting instability from that as well, so its like at the moment, its got two kinds of recovery going on.

 

This is a completely new kind of recovery that our bodies are having to learn how to do for the first time in human evolution. We have got pretty good at fixing damage from physical trauma, because this kind of injury has been around for a long time, but damage from toxic chemicals is something new.

[UselessSpork]

 

Maybe on average i have a crappy wave every 5 days or so. then 1 or 2 bad days.. or it goes 1 bad day, then a good, then another bad. there still isn't really a pattern, yeah i could hold on for another month. I  just want to get off them because they damage your brain the longer you are on them, but i guess i wont rush it. I learned my lesson the first time. And keep in mind my idea of a "crappy wave" is nowhere near as bad as some of the waves i hear about on this forum, but its still kind of awful.

 

I'm sorry you didn't get a response after posting this, before deciding to cut again. I would have agreed with you that more holding was in order, for another month, or two or three... whatever it takes really.  Now I see that since making a small cut, your symptoms have got worse again, so if I were you, I would continue to hold where you are and not continue tapering as you suggested you might.

 

 

 It just seems ridiculous seeing as how i was only on it for 8 months before i started my previous fast taper. i almost feel like doing this part faster (despite my stupid brain acting up) then giving myself alot of time to stabilize at like 0.5 mg or whatever my final dose may be. I just want off this garbage so bad... my brain cant heal at all while im still on this ****.

 

Eight months on this kind of medication is enough time for significant changes in the brain to take place, unfortunately, some people have a harder time coming off these drugs. If the dose you are on now is lower than what you were originally on, then your brain *is* healing, or rather its slowly reverting back to its default mode of operation.  Unfortunately, because of the too fast taper, your nervous system also has to recover from the shock, and resulting instability from that as well, so its like at the moment, its got two kinds of recovery going on.

 

This is a completely new kind of recovery that our bodies are having to learn how to do for the first time in human evolution. We have got pretty good at fixing damage from physical trauma, because this kind of injury has been around for a long time, but damage from toxic chemicals is something new.

 

Ahh well the last 3 days have been alright so, i might already be recovering from the small reduction, Its always so difficult to tell. Ill wait and feel it out.. then ill reduce again. My plan isn't to wait a set amount of time after every reduction... instead im gonna reduce when i feel like i am stable enough.

[UselessSpork]

Well i haven't posted on here in a while and thought i might give it a go. So i have tapered down from 3.9 mg to 1.6 mg in the last 92 days, i have been doing it mostly by feel. What i mean is ill reduce and wait until i feel ok again and get a stretch of decent days to reduce again. It has been going decently for a while, hit some snags here and there in the form of bad depression for a day or 2 then it clears up.. it has been up and down but nothing i havent seen before. I got ups and downs throughout my entire nearly 2 year experience with depression/being on mirtazapine, and these recent taper up and downs haven't been too much different from those so it seemed things were chugging along. But that being said, now that i am down to 1.6 **** is starting to get hard.. i feel my last reduction was too much and i have been going through hell the last week. i went down by 0.3 mg. some of you may think that's too much at once but i have been going down by .4 mg every time and haven't had too too hard of a time, of course nothing is consistent.. sometimes i felt nothing after a taper. either way im gonna hold until i feel less awful and taper down by .1 mg at a time now. but im wondering why i have hit such a brick wall out of the blue... like i haven't had so many bad days so close together since i tried getting off 4 mg cold turkey some months back.

 

thanks

 

PS: when i say i have been going through hell i mean 100% mental problems namely depression and anxiety, and feeling very lethargic sometimes

[bluebalu86]

This is very common. I've read about lots of people who experience problems at lower doses. The lower you go, the smaller cuts you need to make to feel tolerable, that's why the forum recommends the 10% rule of tapering - when you use it, the cuts get smaller the lower you go. Good luck

[UselessSpork]

ahh yeah, well i am going to slow down next taper. still weird that i hit this wall all of a sudden, rather than it gradually getting harder as i went down. was like i got hit with a brick, thanks for the reply

[freespirit]

How are you doing? Things settling down at all, or still having worse mood?

[UselessSpork]

i dunno last 2 days have been better, but every time i say that my days just go bad again lol

[Hopefull]

Well done for getting close to getting off Mirtazapine. Hold your current dose, and wait to stabilize.

You will be fine.

[UselessSpork]

Well the problem is, everytime i wait to feel decent again, i will just end up going down again whether i reduced or not. the ups and downs seem to be mostly independent of the reductions.. they just kinda happen whenever they want. A reduction may make the rollercoaster swing lower, but the reductions don't really seem to be dictating the roller coaster by themselves. It's very hard to decide if i am stable or not, so i have been mostly reducing when the rollercoaster goes back up.

[Fresh]

Have you thought about taking a "tapering holiday" for a month or two?   A good long hold to let everything catch up.   It seems to help.

[UselessSpork]

Man today i was in absolute the worse hell i have been in since as long as i remember.. i got so depressed i felt faint and weak. This was even worse than the worse day i had after my fast taper then diving off 4mg to zero. I am completely baffled.. i dont understand how it can be so bad after my last taper was 10 days ago and i only went down from 1.6 mg to 1.5 mg... even less than 10%. how can i feel worse while doing everything right and tapering slow vs diving off 4 mg at once and trying to ride it out? granted i did reduced by .3 mg about a month before this taper... thats really when i noticed it was getting alot harder. prior to that i was going down by .4 mg at a time and.. there were hard days but nothing like this.. i was chugging along fairly well. So yeah my question is... how can i feel just as bad if not worse while i am tapering vs jumping off 4 mg at a time like i did in February, right after an extremely fast taper mind you. i just dont get it.....

 

 

and yeah i have that of that fresh, but after today... i just don't know. it feels like this taper isnt any different than just going off completely... im asking why am i even doing this anymore. it just feels like im just poisoning myself taking this stupid bullsh-it >.<

[Bayboy]

U.Spork,

 

Hey, I just popped in to check on some of the remeron fighters and I've reviewed a bit of your string.  I won't go into much detail right now, but I recognized that I felt exactly the same way you do now, earlier this year.  The advice of Fresh is sound, please take into consideration, the "tapering holiday".

 

 It seems as if your system and all of its intricate components are trying to "catch up".  This is both normal and logical and I experienced this when I got to 3 mg.  So I held, for a few months, and it was a real game changer for me.  I stabilized and everything corrected itself.  I was able to continue the taper without issue, everything is NORMAL for now.  Although things could get nasty again, I am not suffering at all for the time being and I credit the hold, slow steady taper and extremely clean living for this.  

 

I had to learn the hard way not to put a timeline on withdrawal, just allowing my brain and body heal at its own pace which is apparently very slowly, whatever, I have my life back and you can't put a price on that.

 

I respect any decision you make, this is some tough stuff, but you will be fine…I know this, keep your chin up.

 

BB

[UselessSpork]

It's nice hearing that someone went through the exact same thing and has gotten through it. Did you have these up and down roller coasters of emotions that didn't really seem tied to anything? like i hear about people going through a more predictable process, like if they hold they're fine but as soon as they taper they get a wave and slowly gets better.. then repeats. Even when i hold ill still go up and down, there have been some tapers where i didn't feel a thing. I think i will try holding for a while like you guys have said, but if i give it a while and still see no improvement i will just jump off the 1.5 mg. I still find it very hard to believe my brain is doing any healing at all with this shi-t in my system >.< i just want it out so bad, its so damn hard to hold. i can say im guilty of putting a timeline on this whole thing... i feel like nothing will change and no healing will take place until im off completely. Despite all that i will still hold for a while, thanks for the reply!

 

 

PS another question for you bayboy, when you were on mirtazapine just taking it normally and not trying to taper. did you still have alot of ups and downs? during my entire time on this crap i have had ups and downs that struck for no reason