UselessSpork: Mirtazapine withdrawal, from 45 mg down to 3.9 mg

[bubble]

Hello UselessSpork,

 

Impatience is never good and in this process it can cost us a lot of suffering.

 

These drugs can cause even more suffering when they are out of the system. The point of the process is to literally regrow a new brain which has become physiologically changed over the years when drugs were part of its functioning.

 

You are feeling so bad because you don't this process. It seems you have never held enough at one dose to stabilise. After reinstatement you have again rushed your taper. I for instance held  for 4 months after reinstatement. Rushing with taper as soon as we feel a bit better is never good. Since you are going way too fast you are not able to control the process. You can't see how the increase of your symptoms is related to dose reductions because the effects of previous reductions are catching up with you as Bayboy also noticed. If we taper with at least 30 days holds most of the adjustments to the absence of the drug will happen and we will be in control: carefully listening to our brains we can stay in control and wait longer observing how we stabilise more and more.

 

I can only repeat advice that is all over your thread: slow down and hold. 

 

It would also be good to update your signature. When we look at it we cannot see how much and when you decreased.

 

I'm afraid you are still continuing to destabilise your CNS...

[UselessSpork]

After my reinstatement i held for about 3 or so months before i started tapering again, i felt well enough .. and for a time i was tapering down decently. The evidence does seem to point towards it catching up with me. im going to hold for a while, ty for the advice. Forgive me, it is very hard for me not to be stubborn in times like this.. keep in mind im also a 27 year old male xD but yeah i am gonna hold and see what happens.

[bubble]

Sorry for having been tough

 

Risking gender stereotyping I would say that although being patient is hard for everyone it can be even harder for young males

 

What helped me was to forget about the drug in a way, push it into the background of my life and focus hard on things that were better.

 

I'm a firm believer in holds as I see them as our only tools in this awful battle. There is also my favourite quote by our member Rhi which explains what is actually happening with our brains. Understanding that helped me to be patient and it still does. I have a long long way ahead but I know I'm on the right track...

 

You can do it

[UselessSpork]

Thanks ;D we can all do it. if only people knew what we had to go through im sure people would be offering to pay all of our bills for us lol

[MissTrish]

USpork, I'm sorry you're having such a tough time, but am glad you don't have to do this alone.

I jumped at 2.5 mg mirtazapine.  I had every intention of tapering slowly right down to the wire after having read all the horror stories (and the wisdom).  However, the drug itself started triggering more anxiety for me (and got to where it was waking me up at night after I took it instead of sedating me) and so I jumped, after a 9 month taper.  I've been off for six weeks.

It's rough!

I probably set things back because I freaked out a couple of weeks ago and temporarily went on another sedating tricyclic antidepressant, because the sleep problems just tend to overwhelm me.  That did not go well; crying and basically a basket case within three days of that little experiment.

But I have to believe we will heal.

[UselessSpork]

well i wouldnt blame yourself for trying that med to sleep, not being able to sleep is horrible. Im not sure if you system can handle it atm.. but when i jumped off at 4 mg taking magnesium citrate + 5htp helped me enormously to sleep. maybe you can experiment with a tiny tiny amount and see how it effects you.

[MissTrish]

Like so many of us, I am highly sensitive to any supplements, sadly. Keeping the faith, though.

[Bayboy]

It's nice hearing that someone went through the exact same thing and has gotten through it. Did you have these up and down roller coasters of emotions that didn't really seem tied to anything? like i hear about people going through a more predictable process, like if they hold they're fine but as soon as they taper they get a wave and slowly gets better.. then repeats. Even when i hold ill still go up and down, there have been some tapers where i didn't feel a thing. I think i will try holding for a while like you guys have said, but if i give it a while and still see no improvement i will just jump off the 1.5 mg. I still find it very hard to believe my brain is doing any healing at all with this shi-t in my system >.< i just want it out so bad, its so damn hard to hold. i can say im guilty of putting a timeline on this whole thing... i feel like nothing will change and no healing will take place until im off completely. Despite all that i will still hold for a while, thanks for the reply!

 

 

PS another question for you bayboy, when you were on mirtazapine just taking it normally and not trying to taper. did you still have alot of ups and downs? during my entire time on this crap i have had ups and downs that struck for no reason

Hey Brother,

 

I will quickly address a few of the above for you.  The question about the roller coaster neuro -emotions when tapering?  An emphatic YES!, of course, that is was happens in a difficult withdrawal.  Its predictable only in the sense that it probably will happen, the frustrating part is that we never know when, the windows and waves pattern operate in a non-linear fashion.  Humans like structure and predictability, but in this process, all bets are off, so we tend to stress when symptoms hit without logic and for no apparent reason.  Using other member's anecdotal evidence to compare to your own experience can cause unnecessary anxiety when things seem to work out differently.  Try to focus on the tips and strategies that people utilized that helped them and less on their patterns and timelines.  Some of these may work and some of them won't, that is inevitable.  Everyone is unique which I'm sure you're aware, and will heal at their own rate based on their individual physiology, medical history, and many other variables.

 

As I continue to slowly progress downwards, in my experience, I have indeed "healed", there is no question.  I came off a horrible benzo and poly-drugging experiment that failed miserably, and one in which I believed I'd never recover from.  So to answer your other question, yes, I had a lot of ups and downs while using remeron for the short duration that I did.  And I continued to have them throughout the process, but, I am exponentially better than when this all began.  My brain and body operate like they used to before this started and most of the nasty symptoms have disappeared and not returned.  But for me, this meant, taking things slow and holding or up dosing where required.  I have become somewhat skilled through help from others on this site and my own trial and error, at detecting when I need to do these things.

 

Remember, your brain and nervous system want to return to their default mode and achieve homeostasis.  That is what they are designed to do, but you must provide them with the support and environment they need , and, fortunately for all of us, this site is full of strategies to accomplish that.

 

In the last six months or so in particular, whether I'm with family, friends, doing recreational activities, at work or just hanging with my dog, I have noticed a deep appreciation for life.  This is normal, run-of-the-mill stuff for some people but I now have this amazing perspective because I can compare it to when I was really sick at the peak of withdrawal.  And for that, I am extremely grateful!  All of this, with the "s*&t" still in my system…..

 

hope that makes sense….I wish you well

 

BB

[UselessSpork]

Thanks alot bayboy! i understood everything you wrote and it all seems to make sense. the unpredictability is sooo frustrating. There has been a great deal of time where i have been trying to connect certain foods with my downturns, what i realize now is im pretty much sensitive to everything to some degree. Sometimes some things cause a reaction and sometimes they don't, i couldn't figure it out for so long. It may seem unhealthy but i have been sort of fasting a bit, like if i feel very sensitive and on the edge of having a downturn.. i just wont eat for a while, maybe even till the evening. It's really not hard to go long periods without eating. And i will agree with what you said at the end, there have been times during this whole thing where i have had a chance to really enjoy things, even the little things. When my brain isnt being a messed up moron, i can tell life will be much better than ever before when i get out of this completely. The thing i miss the absolute most is just sitting down and being content, i dont need to be super happy or anything.. i just wanna feel like everything is gonna be ok. Luckily for me i don't need alot in life to feel good, one day i shall get back to feeling content all the time! yes all the damn time... im not greedy!... lolol

[tgirl]

I have been reading your thread.

I was on remeron for 6 months up to 45 mg.

my doc took me from 45 to 7.5 within a month. I suffered greatly!

 

Once I stabilized I began to cut. I cut every 10 days over the last 7 mos. and had no symptoms.

NONE! 7 mos I felt so normal even better after each drop. I am now down to .001 and am having symptoms.

 

I don't understand why?

 

.001 seems so minute!

 

This pill is evil!

I'm going to go back to .003 tonight and see how that goes. And I will be holding there for a good long while.

Who would think that at .001 I would be having problems??

[UselessSpork]

Lol i know right? i am still bewildered that a dinky 1.5 mg is effecting me so much, it still knocks me out at night. these stupid drugs are ridiculous

[tgirl]

How are you doing us?

[UselessSpork]

i got sort of a break for maybe 5 days, but yesterday and today **** is starting to suck again. Nothing like being in that mode where you feel helpess to stop this bullsh-it from happening huh? all while thinking "great... this again, how long will it last this time" Sorry for the negativity, im just tired of this bullsh-it >.< I know one day i will recover from this completely and things will be good, but it doesn't seem to help me in the current moment, my brain is too concerned with feeling like crap.

[UselessSpork]

* post moved from symptoms forum

 

This is such an odd thing that happens when im depressed. when im depressed i cant even fathom what it feels like to be happy or feel relaxed and content, its like imagining a new color or thinking of sound as having a taste. Like for example, today is sh*tty, just feel gross, agitated, depressed .. just uncomfortable malaise, and i was looking at my journal and seeing all the days i wrote down as good, days where i felt normal. I found that i couldnt imagine feeling good, even though i wrote them down as good, its almost like my brain thinks its a lie. Like, last night was really good .. yet i feel like what i wrote down in my journal was a lie.... like how can i ever feel good when i feel like **** at the current moment? its such an annoying thing, i KNOW i felt good on those days, but my brain doesn't seem to care much. i would like to hear other peoples thoughts on this.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Petunia
added note

[UselessSpork]

Man i am getting really tired of this, day after day of feeling like crap. This is very very unusual for me... i usually get a break inbetween bad days, but not this time. Ever since i tapered down from 1.9 mg to 1.6  roughly a month and a half ago i have gotten noticeably worse. my good days have been dwindling and i am left with more and more sh*tty days. im holding at 1.5 and im going to keep holding for a while, but at this point it seems so pointless. I find im saying to myself "just kill me... bring down the meteor and just end this bullsh'it" I am so godamn agitated and angry that this bullsh*t is wasting my life and it wont just FU'CKING END! SOOO SICK OF IT! ugh.. i know this seems overly negative and im usually not like this when i post, but i just need to vent.

[Petunia]

I'm sorry you are going through a rough patch US, unfortunately this can happen to some people as the dose gets really low, the last little bit can be the hardest to come off of.

 

Its important to taper slowly as the dose gets lower. This paper will show you why: http://survivinganti...concentration/ 

(Check out the charts on page 4 and see how the receptor occupancy drops much more sharply at lower doses.)

 

Some people need to really slow down, possibly making cuts between 1% - 5%.

 

Please read through: 

The slowness of slow tapers 

Also see our topic on micro-tapers Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

 

You do have the option of updosing slightly, or you could wait it out. If I were you, when you feel ready to make another cut, try a 5% decrease. You may also need to start doing longer holds in between cuts.

[UselessSpork]

thank you i will check out these charts you linked. in times like this funnily enough i dont really want hugs and cuddles, i want data! research... anything that answers questions, so thanks for the info! now hopefully i can decipher it whilst feeling like crap >.<

 

PS: i looked at that thread/paper its very interesting. but since Mirtazapine apparently doesn't have a high affinity for serotonin re uptake (or so i read) i wonder what exactly is happening in my brain. Obviously something similar but its hard to say. Mirtazapine does effect serotonin but not nearly as much as the SSRI's... maybe the same thing happens with dopamine and noradrenaline ? mirtazapine messes with those.

[freespirit]

Sorry, I don't have any data or charts for you US...have you checked out the threads on symptoms and self-care? Maybe some of those things will help you ride through the difficulties. For most of us, doing something that soothes or distracts can at least prevent adding onto the wd pain. Hang in there...it will get better again.

[UselessSpork]

Its ok this research is really REALLY hard to find. half the time you would have no idea what to search for to find some of this. i have looked through that section of the forums, but i didn't really find anything that could apply to me. What i use to get through this horsesh-it is video games, and when im feeling ok enough, making videos and putting them on youtube. i find nothing else really helps me all that much :<

[Hopefull]

Hi Uselessspork,

 

Since tappering off Mirtazapine, I have had ups and downs and periods of stability.

I have noticed a pattern.

When I reduce the dose by 1mg , I feel great, wd sets in 2-3 weeks later and it takes me 3 -4 weeks to stabilize.

Then the whole process repeats its self.

You are obviously in a wave right now.

Hold and see how you go. We are all guilty of having the time line to getting off this poison. But I have resigned my self to the fact that it might take me longer.

Just keep going. It will be ok.

[UselessSpork]

thanks hope, i wished my patterns were like yours. like i said before sometimes i taper and i feel nothing and other times i can feel something rigght away or in a week..just about anytime it feels like it. it seems compleeetely random. the crazy randomness is making things so much more difficult. But yeah ill keep on trucking!

[ang]

Hi US................ I was on mirtazapine once, luckily got off it while I was still semi insane, and was on other drugs............ in hindsight, mirtazipine is the rocket fuel booster for everything else, but the most addictive, and the hardest to get off, you are doing so well           !!!!!!

 

I am feeling that I have now found a pattern as Hopeful says, so I am grateful to be at that stage of healing, my final drug being seroquol.......   I find I can cut, and then I get a big downer a week later, and it seems to take about 2 weeks to improve.  

 

Mirtazipine, however is so much a stronger drug, I believe, so go slow..........   if there is no pattern happening when you taper, perhaps you need to stay at the one spot longer...........             When I went off CT Zoloft, years ago, took 12 months for the psychosis to hit......... I didnt know then, what I know now..........               when I went off it again, with a slower taper, the WD hit about 6 months later......                 So keep this in mind, the cuts you did up to 12 months ago, are still affecting you...........

[UselessSpork]

Ahh i see, well hopefully if i take it slow and once i finally get off this bullsh*t i can be done not too long after. I just hope that once i taper down to zero that i don't have another long road of getting back to normal while off the drug.

[tgirl]

U,

How are you doing?

[UselessSpork]

last 2 days and today (so far) not too bad. still not good but its tolerable

[Petunia]

I'm happy to hear you are feeling  little bit better and finally have a break from the bad days.

[UselessSpork]

I never really like to say how im feeling at any given point since my symptoms can change by the hour/day and are so random, its really all over the place. But yeah kinda sorta better... i guess? lol. thanks for replying

[freespirit]

Hope you're still getting some good moments US. Things were totally random for me while tapering too...I just didn't see patterns like some people do.

[UselessSpork]

Its a shame since humans naturally like and look for patterns

[freespirit]

so true...we like to know. So maybe the pattern is that there is no pattern...or it's a pattern that is not yet discernible. I've become tired of trying to figure things out and am attempting to surrender to what's happening instead. Everything is a learning process on this journey....

[UselessSpork]

yeah ive sort of surrendered to it in a sense too. it sounds like im giving up but i dont really think about it that way, it feels worse to me trying to desperately fight it and ignore it only to fail and feel even more hopeless because nothing helps. i just say "ok hit me assho&le.. do your worst" lol

[Hopefull]

Patterns sometimes go out of the window.

WD is so unpredictable and it manifests it self in different ways. Sometimes you face the same thing that you have faced before, thinking that it is finally gone.

Then the cycle keeps repeating until you are finally healed.

[tgirl]

Hope your hanging on there.

What kind of videos do you make?

T

[UselessSpork]

Yep that chronic nature of this thing is a b****.

 

and i make REALLY stupid videos about games and **** lol

[tgirl]

Hello Us,

How are you doing?

Hope you are well?

Are you getting much sleep?

Thank you,

Tgirl

[UselessSpork]

last couple days have been good, so thats good. my sleep has never been an issue really which is nice, although im expecting a wave to happen again soon, hopefully wont be as bad as the last. thanks for asking !