marie2015: the feeling of going crazy

[marie2015]

hello all,

 

I am in desperate need for support. I think I am in serious trouble with remeron withdrawal. I took 30mg for 3 months to help with postpartum depression. Since it was not working and my doctor wanted to change me to another antidepressant, I went to 15mg last december. To make a long story short I had a complete nervous break down (depression 10 times worse, feeling of going crazy, dry retching and nausea all the time). I thought (and my doctor thought) that it was a worsening of my original depression. I was put in the hospital, put on a new antidepressant and tranquilizers and after a month, I felt almost normal again and returned home.

 

The thing is, my doctor told me to stop the Remeron in a week (!!!) since it was not helping and I was now a little bit more stable on the new AD. I decided to do a taper, a lot slower than he suggested. I went from 15 mg to around 11mg (3/4 of a 15mg pill) and after a couple of days I started having the same exact feelings as this december : the horrible panic attacks, the complete desperation, the feeling of going crazy. So now I am going the math and I am starting to think that this problem in december was not my depression but withdrawal from Remeron and that I am experiencing the same thing again.

 

My question to you I suppose is about the "going crazy thing". I now know from reading a little bit on the forum that I have to do a slower taper. My problem is that I just CAN NOT DEAL with this feeling that I am going crazy. It is the worse feeling in the world and I am beginning to question my sanity again. The last time I did that was last december, 2 weeks after going from 30 to 15 mg of Remeron. I was convinced I was going psychotic and I am convinced again now. I just don't understand how somebody can live with that feeling and not kill themselves. I am not suicidal but I am VERY VERY afraid and I just hope somebody has works of wisdom for me because I am really in pain right now.

[Meimeiquest]

Is it a feeling of anxiety and/or inner tension? Or thoughts that aren't congruent with reality? Back in 2006, I was really having disordered thoughts, craziness. But I was happy...it was other people who were worried. Often the "This is so awful I feel like I have to kill myself," often combined with physical restlessness, is akathisia. It is the worst. It is caused by a drug or withdrawing from it. Maybe you could explain the feeling more?

[spectio]

Good morning, Marie, you are EXACTLY right. For now, take a few slow deep breaths. Some of the moderators will be here shortly to go over proper withdrawal techniques with you. I was on remeron for eleven years, tapered off in two years ( not slow enough), and am still paying the price 3 1/2 years later. As I understand it, you haven't been on these drugs very long. With the right regimen for withdrawal and plenty of patience, you will be all right! You are so fortunate you found this site after such a short time on these poisons. I'm pretty sure the moderators will have you go back in remeron for a while to get stabilized and then withdraw from there.

 

So, don't panic ( easier said than done!) and wait for help. You'll be okay!

[marie2015]

Thank you for your answers. The feeling is that I am going to have a breakdown at any moment. It is like the most unbearable emotionnal pain I have ever felt. Imagine everybody you love dies and than multiply by 100 and this is how I am feeling. I never felt like this before. I am shaking from the terror.  It is just like the world has turned into a nightmare. I just can not imagine that I will survive for another hour and certainly not another day. I just feel like begging a doctor to put me to sleep so I don't have to feel the pain.

 

And the worse is that I can not calm myself by saying "it will pass" because I think that :

1-If this pain is my depression, HOW ON EARTH am I going to be able to go through that? I must be the most crazy person alive

or

2-if the pain is withdrawal only from going from 15 to 11 mg, how will I be able to quit? In what kind of nightmare have I step into?

 

It is almost impossible to gain perspective when I feel this way. Just yesterday, I was out shopping, I watched some friends episodes, I was laughing, I thought I had my depression and meds under control, that I would slowly get better. Now I just feel that I have died and somebody sent me to hell.

[Risperdrawlin]

How are you doing? Are you still on the 11 mg? Maybe you should go back up to 15. How long has it been since you were on 30 mg? Maybe you should go back up to 30 if it wasn't too long ago. I think it's more likely you should go up to 15.

 

Can you please post the dates of everything happening? (Read on if you don't have the patience right now)

 

-When your postpartum depression started

-When you started taking Remeron and how much

-When you reduced from 30 mg to 15 mg Remeron

-When you entered the hospital and when you got out

-What new drugs you were put on, the dosages, and when you started them

-When you changed from 15 mg to 11 mg Remeron

-What you're currently taking

 

This should all also go in your Intro post and much of it should go in your signature, but you can worry about that later.

 

I think these links will help you:

http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/radical_acceptance_text.html

http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/mindfulness_video_text.html

 

These may help you: http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/crisis_survival_video_text.html

http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/improve_moment_text.html

 

Post if you have any questions.

 

Are you in therapy? Do you have a psychiatrist you can speak to?

 

Your post reminds me of how I felt three days after I went from 1 mg Risperdal to 0 (it was too big of a jump). I had a breakdown, I felt like brain damage was happening, I was very scared, I was shaking, and I sort of shut down and was sort of catatonic. I also became very quiet. The thing that helped me cope at that time until I decided to reinstate (I didn't want to reinstate the drug) was to try to feel what I was feeling. When I felt scared, it wasn't so bad. By this I mean I did not try to suppress or avoid my fear. I felt it. I felt scared. I experienced being scared. Doing this was exhausting, but it did help me feel better in the moment. 

 

Right now if I was you if you're still feeling this way I would be blowing up my psychiatrist's and psychologist's phones if I have them and getting them in touch and figuring out what you're going to do. Was the Remeron damaging/ hurting you, or was it just not working and you were still depressed?

 

Best wishes.

[Petunia]

Welcome marie2015,

I moved your posts here to the introductions section, because they are related to your own situation specifically.  Please add information and updates about your changing circumstances, and ask questions here. You can use this thread as your ongoing journal to track progress and communicate with the community.

 

I'm sorry to hear that you are going through this, you may be having withdrawal symptoms from stopping Remeron too fast.   We suggest reducing by no more than 10% of the current dose every 4 weeks, this reduces the risk of withdrawal symptoms arising.  Please read through this which will explain why:

  

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?  (The general philosophy of gradual tapering)

 

When did you drop from 15mg to 11mg?  How were you feeling when you were taking 15mg?

 

  Please see:  Tips for tapering off Remeron (mirtazapine) http://survivinganti...on-mirtazapine/

 

But on the other hand, you may be having an interaction between Remeron and the other drugs you are taking.

What other drugs are you taking and what dose?

 

We need a little more information about your drug history.  Please put your drug and withdrawal history in your signature.  Putting a short version of your drug and tapering history in your signature helps people understand your context, it appears below each of your posts.  Here are instructions for how to do it:

 

http://survivinganti...your-signature/

 

Once you get back to us with more details about your drug history and situation, we will be in a better position to offer support and suggestions.

 

Petunia.

 

[Altostrata]

Welcome, marie.

 

....

 

The thing is, my doctor told me to stop the Remeron in a week (!!!) since it was not helping and I was now a little bit more stable on the new AD. I decided to do a taper, a lot slower than he suggested. I went from 15 mg to around 11mg (3/4 of a 15mg pill) and after a couple of days I started having the same exact feelings as this december : the horrible panic attacks, the complete desperation, the feeling of going crazy. So now I am going the math and I am starting to think that this problem in december was not my depression but withdrawal from Remeron and that I am experiencing the same thing again.

 

....

 

What exactly are you taking, and how much? Please put ALL the drugs you take in the Drug Interactions Checker http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.htmland post the results in this topic.

 

It sounds like you got severe withdrawal symptoms from your initial Remeron reduction -- not "a complete nervous break down." Doctors believe withdrawal symptoms are trivial and transitory, but this is not always true.

 

Please do what you can to remain calm, you will have to deal with these symptoms for a while, but they will get less intense. Remind yourself that you are feeling adverse drug effects, not going crazy.

[marie2015]

Hello,

 

I'll try to answer a couple of questions. I am a little overwhelmed by all the answers. And I have limited time and energy (dealing with this withdrawal, the rest of my depression and a baby!)

 

-When your postpartum depression started... in august 2014 when by baby was 3 weeks old

-When you started taking Remeron and how much... I started in september. Tried it at 15 mg for 6 weeks, than got to 30mg and stayed there for around a month. I also try during that period paxil, ativan, zoloft, seroquel

-When you reduced from 30 mg to 15 mg Remeron : at the end fof november

-When you entered the hospital and when you got out... I was in the hospital from dec 13 to january 12

-What new drugs you were put on, the dosages, and when you started them. I am now taking ativan .5mg/day and clomipramine 125mg in addition to Remeron. and an occasionnal Imovane for sleep

-When you changed from 15 mg to 11 mg Remeron.. january 28

 

The worst day was 2 days ago when I posted. Since then, I have the depression but not as horrible as it was 2 days ago. I think I will stay at 11mg for a while and then start reducing 1mg every 4 weeks (or until I feel stable).

 

I also have bad ocd with my depression with does not make things better (I think the clomipramine is starting to help). The Remeron never did anything for me except make me eat and sleep.

 

One symptom I had when I went from 30 to 15mg was the dry retching (definetly a withdrawal symptom : never had that with ocd or depression before!!!). I don't have it this time.

 

thank you all for your support. This website is wonderful!

[marie2015]

I just want to add : I am seeing a psychiatrist, my family doctor and a psychologist for therapy. I also have a nanny, my husband, several close friends and my parents. So I have a lot of support even if people don't seem to know a lot about withdrawal.

[Altostrata]

Yes, you had withdrawal syndrome and are still recovering from it.

 

Please put ALL the drugs you take in the Drug Interactions Checker http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html and post the results in this topic.

[Risperdrawlin]

Glad to hear things seem to be going better Marie!

[marie2015]

Today it is so bad : anxiety through the roof and constant panic attacks from hell! (My regular panic attacks look like hiccups compared to these!!!!!) that I will go back to 15mg. I just hope I will feel better then. I am so desperate right now. How will I ever be able to quit this stuff? I never felt so bad in my life.

[dalsaan]

Yes, you had withdrawal syndrome and are still recovering from it.

 

Please put ALL the drugs you take in the Drug Interactions Checker http://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html and post the results in this topic.

 

Hi Marie,

 

This is the second time Alto has asked you to do this.  She is concerned that a drug interaction is exacerbating and complicating your withdrawal.   

 

Can you please do this - check the interactions between your drug and cut and paste the answers into a post here.   It would be wise to do this before taking action to increase your dose.

 

Dalsaan

[lolly]

Poor you Marie Sound like you've had a terrible time. I am withdrawing from remeron too and dnt think You're not going mad or having a breakdown it sounds like withdrawal. And all those drugs you tried (paxil etc) and the tranquilizers have probably made you worse top of the withdrawal and baby hormones. So try and reassure yourself you are not mad as you were okay before the drugs.

Take the moderators advice above about drug interactions. And have a read on here about tapering and stabilizing

[marie2015]

There is no drug interaction. My psychiatrist would not prescribe 2 drugs that don't go together and even so, the pharmacist would have checked it!! But I will do what you ask and post it here.

[marie2015]

http://www.drugs.com/interactions-check.php?drug_list=702-0,1030-0,1488-899,1640-1015

 

there is 2 problems with what I take :

1) 2 drugs that act on serotonin so I could get serotonin syndrome. But many doctors do that : putting people on 2 antidepressants.

2) all the drugs I take have drowsiness as a side effect. Since I take low doses (and take only rarely Imovane) and don't take them all at the same time, it was never I problem for me

[marie2015]

I started a new topic since the other was really old. Tell me if that's not ok.

 

I had a weird experience with Remeron withdrawal so I thought I would share.

 

I started taking 30 mg of Remeron in september 2014 for post partum depression and anxiety.( I was switched from celexa to Remeron because it seemed like the celexa was not working). Fast forward 3 months later and I was not better, only worse (paxil, zoloft and seroquel were also tried in addition to the Remeron with no effect). I decided to go down from 30 to 15 mg of Remeron since I was convinced that this drug was not helping and was maybe even hurting me. I started to have anxiety 10 times worse than what I ever had before in my life. This brought me to the psychiatric hospital where I stayed one month. I was put on other drugs (Ativan, Lamictal, Anafranil) but the Remeron was not stopped at my demand since I was afraid of the withdrawal (of course no doctor thought that withdrawal could be that bad).

 

I got better during the rest of the winter and then stopped the Lamictal and the Ativan. I tried to stop the Remeron at the same time as the Ativan but I experienced high anxiety so decided to wait. Finally, I began my "real" withdrawal from Remeron in may 2015. I was prepared for the worse given my history so far with that drug. But I went from 15 to 13 to 11 to 9 to 7 to 5 to 3 to 1 to 0 mg without big problems. I felt withdrawal symptoms (fatigue, dizziness, nausea, insomnia, headaches, anxiety, mood swings) but nothing to make me unfunctionnal and nothing unbearable. I did some cardio and a lot of yoga and walking so maybe that helped me.

 

I am now one month completely free from Remeron. I think that I am out of the woods with that drug. After a month, I suppose I am not going to have a big surprise in terms of withdrawal.

 

I suppose I am posting this to encourage people. You never know how things are going to work out. Less than a year ago I was in the hospital on 5 different psychiatric drugs, thinking that my life was over. I am now on only one, Anafranil (I plan to taper in a few months) and I feel good.

[dalsaan]

Hi Marie

 

I merged your topics together. We have one thread per person in the introductions forum.

 

I'm glad to hear you are feeling ok after your taper. Sometimes withdrawal can be delayed but hopefully that won't be the case. You said you had some symptoms along the way. Have they all resolved now?

 

Dalsaan

[marie2015]

Hello,

I have not posted here in a while. The last time was because of Remeron withdrawal when I was in post partum depression 3 years ago.

I am now trying to stop Clomipramine. I was on it for 3 years but I have been on various antidepressants (most of the time at low dosage) for most of the last 20 years.

 

I am trying to do a tapering schedule for my last 25 mg (I went from 100 mg to 25 mg in 3 months without big problems). Of course, my therapist, psychiatrist, family doctor, pharmacist and different internet sources (!) all have different opinions! Since I have been on antidepressants for a long time and I am sensitive to low doses I was planning on doing a really slow tapper (from 25 mg to zero in 9 months) but I am wondering if going too slow can be a problem. Do you guys have any ideas on that?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Gridley]

Going from 25mg to 0 in 9 months is an extremely fast taper and very risky.  This is especially so since you say you are sensitive to lower doses.  The higher doses are easier to taper than the lower doses, and with the taper you are considering you could very well end up with some very unpleasant withdrawal symptoms.

 

What is withdrawal syndrome.

 

Glenmullen’s withdrawal symptom list.

 

Please be aware that some times withdrawal symptoms don't appear immediately after a too-fast taper.  

 

Delayed onset of withdrawal symptoms

At Surviving Antidepressants, it is recommended that a person taper by no more than 10% of their current dose with at least a four week hold in-between decreases.  The 10% taper recommendation is a harm reduction approach to going off psychiatric drugs.  Some people may have to taper at a more conservative rate as they are sensitive to even the smallest drops.  
 
Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Brain Remodelling

 

It is my strong recommendation that you reconsider the rate of your taper.

 

Could you please update your signature to reflect the dates and rate of your taper from 50mg to 25?

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Gridley

[ChessieCat]

I've merged your new Intro topic with your original.  Each member has only 1 Intro topic where they can ask questions about their own situation and journal their progress.  It keeps your history in one place.  Please do not start any more Intro topics.  Thank you.

 

Please update your signature, using the following instructions.  Thank you.

 

We ask all members to create a drug signature.  Please update it whenever you make a change.  Please keep it nice and simple.  We only need details for the last 2 years.  Date, drug and dose only, no symptoms or diagnoses.  The other years can just be an overview.  

 

This is the preferred format which is helpful for the mods.  Thank you.

 

A request: Would you summarize your history in a signature - ALL drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 2 years particularly?

• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses.
• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 

• Any drugs prior to 2 years ago can just be listed with start and stop years.
• Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago)
• Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016.
• Link to Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.Before you begin tapering what you need to know

[marie2015]

5 hours ago, Gridley said:

Going from 25mg to 0 in 9 months is an extremely fast taper and very risky.  This is especially so since you say you are sensitive to lower doses.  The higher doses are easier to taper than the lower doses, and with the taper you are considering you could very well end up with some very unpleasant withdrawal symptoms.

 

I don't know if you are famliar with Clomipramine but the usual dose is around 150-300 mg so 25 mg is already a very low dose. So I would not say 9 months to go from 25mg to zero is extremely fast.

 

But I will review the links you posted (thank you!).  I thought I was familiar with withdrawal but it seems that you guys have a very slow approach. I am wondering if there is not a downside to it. And from what dose do you go to zero?

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by ChessieCat
Extracted response

[ChessieCat]

A slow taper is a harm reduction method.  The idea is to withdraw the drug slowly so that you only (hopefully) experience mild withdrawal symptoms and can continue to live your life as normally as possible.

 

SA recommends tapering by no more than 10% of the previous dose followed by a hold at that dose for about 4 weeks to allow the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.  This is because psychiatric drugs create a physiological dependence, not physical like caffeine or nicotine.

 

Patience is needed to get off these drugs.  We suggest throwing out the calendar and listening to your body and your symptoms.  If after 4 weeks you don't feel stable, are unwell or life circumstances are a bit more stressful than usual (for example the Christmas period, winter time, or job change) it is better to stay at that dose for a bit longer until things settle down.

 

I'm going to give you lots of links to check out.  Please don't feel overwhelmed, just work your way through them one at a time as you feel able.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

When to end the taper and jump to zero?

 

Dr Joseph Glenmullen's Withdrawal Symptoms

 

Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

 

Brain Remodelling

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

Keep it Simple, Slow and Stable

Keep Notes on Paper

 

Rate Symptoms Daily to Check Patterns and Progress

Tapering Calculator - Online

 

The only supplements which SA recommends are Magnesium and Omega-3 Fish Oil.  Try a small amount one at a time to see how you react.  It is best to make only 1 change at a time.  It is also better not to start taking a complex vitamin because if you experience issues you will not know what exactly is causing it.  B vitamins can be stimulating especially B6.  hypersensitive-to-b-vitamin-or-b-vitamin-complex  If trying anything new, start with a small amount to see how you react and build up to the recommended amount.  

 

Even with a careful and slow taper you will most likely experience times of discomfort.  It is best to learn and use Non-drug techniques to cope

 

There are many existing topics and discussions on this site.  You can use the site search function on the main page of the site at the top right, or use a search engine and include survivingantidepressants.org in your search string.

 

As I said, lots of information, but I really want you to have what you need so you can have a successful taper.

 

This is your own Intro topic where you can ask questions and journal your progress.  We suggest that members visit each others Intro topics so that can support and encourage each other.

 

[Gridley]

We recommend that you jump off to zero at no higher than .5mg and preferably lower if you can.

 

When to end the taper and jump to zero?

 

Since 25mg is already a low dose, all the more reason to go slowly.

 

 

 

 

[marie2015]

Dear Surviving Antidepressant community, once again, I am in need¸of your wisdom.

I have been on antidepressants for the better part of the last 25 years. 6 years on Paxil, 7 years on Celexa and 8 years on Anafranil. I did a very slow tapper of Anafranil over the last 3 years. I went from 25 mg to 0 mg. It took me a year to go from 5mg to 0. My last dose was 0.5mg in march 2023. From march to june I had a couple of symptoms, but nothing severe. All hell broke loose in june when I had a stressful event in my life. I also suspect that the 2-3 month mark is a problematic time when withdrawing from antidepressant since the last 2 times I had a bad withdrawal reaction in the past it was at that moment.

The worst symptoms were insomnia and depersonnalization with panic. I was completly caught off guard since I had never experienced more than mild insomnia or depersonalization in my 43 years of life, even if I struggle with anxiety since childhood. For a week I could only sleep 3-4 hours per night and I had hypnic jerks each time I was falling asleep. And the depersonalization was so bad that I was questionning my ability to just « be human ». I thought I was losing my mind.

I was very afraid of those symptoms and I had to function since my kids are home for the summer so I went back to 5 mg of Anafranil. I should have gone on a smaller dose, I know, but I was a mess and I panicked. It has been a month since I went back and I am back to being 95% my normal self, thank god.

I now have 2 questions that maybe you wise people can help me with.

First, I am seriously questionning my ability to withdraw from Anafranil. Maybe 25 years on antidepressants (on and off) have permanently altered my brain and I can not function without them. I thought that by doing a really slow taper I would be safe, but it seems that Dr. Shipko is right in the idea that even with a slow taper it can still be hellish. I am horrified that I put myself in this position and terrified to try another time.

Second, I am wondering, if I want to start tapering again, how should I do it? I suppose my only option would be to be to tough it out but I don't know if I am strong enough.

Any idea would be welcomed.