KarenB: slow Effexor taper

[KarenB]

So the plan is to hold for two months, with the idea that a third month might be a good idea - but I can't quite bring myself to commit to that yet . 

[Fresh]

That commitment took a lot - well done Karen.     Wouldn't it be lovely if you feel sooo much better in 2 months?

You have nothing to lose , and everything to gain.

Hats off to you for walking the walk.

 

[nick1990]

Nice work Karen I dont know as much as others here - but the idea of being in a really stable place before each drop seems to be the most logical thing to do. And if holding for a longer period of time is what it takes then thats what needs to be done. Then you will be coooking with gas

[Rachel1963]

Hi Karen; I just read your story and it is an awesome one...I wanted to tell you thanks for the encouragement you have given me since I got here...in all honesty I don't know what would have happened to me without your support. All of the moderators are the best!

[KarenB]

Fresh, Nick, and Rachel - thanks heaps for that encouragement guys.  Cooking with gas!!  Hilarious . 

 

I knew I'd need to make a 'public' decision, cause then I'll be too embarrassed to back out of it.  For instance today I'm having a good day and I started thinking I might not need a long hold after all.  But then I have to make myself remember that only being able to make 0.4% cuts is not really a great place to be in.  I need to stabilise better. 

 

Hugs to all,

Karen

[LexAnger]

Hi Karen, just stop by and say hi, it's been a while since my last visit although I read all your posts within my email notification.

 

I am holding long too now, beans 4+ month since hate last cut, but the waves during holding always makes me wonder if a cut is due. I remember another member here mentioned she can't hold too long. Our cases are more complicated by dose increase though.

 

Holding long for the pure decreasing type should be beneficial at least in theory.

[KarenB]

There's a bit of discussion about this at the moment.  For some people a long hold doesn't continue to bring relief and eventually they seem to need to cut again.  I guess all we can do is test the waters for ourselves. 

 

I don't think waves during a longer hold necessarily indicate that a cut is needed.  I think the more telling issue is whether there has been improvement overall since the beginning of the hold.  So I wonder if your waves are getting worse or better each time, and if the windows are better or worse? 

 

I am thinking that I will hold for 2-3 months - and if I continue to improve during that time I will reconsider and maybe go longer.  I figure I have plenty of time up my sleeve for trying some different things . 

[LexAnger]

Most probably you are right Karen! Thanks for assuring me on this!

I'm still in the wave after the 12 day clear window, with lots brain non functional and now also lots pains and aches everywhere like my whole being is racked into pieces. But overall, my energy level is better than the last wave, so considering it an improvement.

 

I'm afraid of what a new cut might bring up, so will continue holding unless things get a lot worse.

 

How are you feeling lately?

 

Lex

[KarenB]

I'm feeling okay - a bit dizzy today after a hectic day yesterday family visiting.  So am taking it easy, but really I have no complaints.  Seem to be sleeping well atm, and digestion issues are improving again.  Thanks for asking .

 

Hope your wave starts to weaken soon Lex.

 

Karen

x

[Petunia]

Hi Karen,

I just wanted to offer some encouragement for the long hold, sounds good to me too Its so nice to read positive updates. Hope the little bit of dizziness has passed now.

[KarenB]

Dizziness has passed.  The pattern of this last two weeks has been to be mostly in a window, with the occasional day giving me an hour-long wave.  Totally manageable .

 

Today I have started MSM supplement, on a very low dose, to see if it helps with energy. 

 

In other news my husband has successfully made three 10% reductions, with roughly 4-6 weeks between.  His only symptom is itchy skin.  I try not to be grumpy at him because of this . 

[LexAnger]

Good work Karen!

Glad both of you and your husband are having a fair time together!

Best wishes for the good days continuing for you and smooth journey for your husband!

 

Lex

[hardy86]

Hi KarenB

Thanks for replying on my page means a lot. I hope all your dizziness has gone now. You sound like you are doing well I'm so happy to hear that. Keep it up.

Hardy

[hardy86]

Let me know how you go on MSM I haven't heard if that before. Have you hear of D-ribose for energy? I'm desperate for energy at the moment.

Take care

Hardy

[KarenB]

Thanks Hardy,

 

I'll write on here how the MSM goes.  I first heard about it on Fresh's thread - she seems to have had good results from it.  You take care too - we're in for the long haul...

[KarenB]

A member asked me recently if perhaps some of the people here who are struggling long term are actually in relapse and possibly need to be on drugs.  I'm copying my reply here:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

A core understanding is that drugs always make a person's long-term outcomes worse.  This is documented in the book Anatomy of an Epidemic.  Once you have that understanding, you realise that getting off drugs is paramount. 

 

And if a person still struggles with their original difficulty (depression, anxiety etc) then they are going to be better off learning to manage that without drugs.  There is far more to it than the dominant paradigm of 'Relapse = flawed = must take drugs.'  Psych drugs are marketed insidiously and un-ethicaly to people who are desparate.  But the most they can do is temporarily mask issues, while causing damage to a person's brain.

 

It's hard to taper, and it's hard to learn non-drug skills because our society has largely forgotten how to do this, but it can be done.  It's important to find the motivation - and a large part of that will come from understanding how much damage drugs do.

 

I want to be in that category of people with better long-term outcomes due to less time on drugs.  (Since I've lost the chance to be in the best category with those who never took drugs). 

 

I really recommend getting hold of that book.  It helped me immensely.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[nz11]

Karen you write so well.

Excellent answer which should be pinned in every doctors clinic.

[Rain]

Karen how are you these days? I agree with your saying!

 

However I am still suffering from these meds, they are strong and I feel bad these days even still on Lexapro these days. 

 

Do you think they done a permanent damage on my brain? I am so scared now and I really want to quit them slowly...

 

I have been on them for nearly 10 years now and the bad thing is I have just passed 27th birthday, I quit my job, I feel I don't have future anymore, I don't know how my life will continue in the future...

[KarenB]

27 - just a spring chicken!!  You're going to have heaps of time to do all sorts of living.  Just get this healing business under your belt, it might take a few years, but then you have the next 90 (well, figuring you've possibly got till 120 or so ) and I bet after this you really will live life to the full.  I think we all will. 

[Rain]

27 - just a spring chicken!!  You're going to have heaps of time to do all sorts of living.  Just get this healing business under your belt, it might take a few years, but then you have the next 90 (well, figuring you've possibly got till 120 or so ) and I bet after this you really will live life to the full.  I think we all will. 

 

 

HAHAHA, thank you so much Karen! Your words are always encouraging me. 

 

I mistakenly too 2 tablets of Lexapro (20mg) today and now I feel extremely anxiety and needled numbness in my hands and feet. 

 

So can I say, Lexapro W/D or Lexapro itself is the culprit to my awful feelings? 

[SkyBlue]

There is far more to it than the dominant paradigm of 'Relapse = flawed = must take drugs.'  

 

 

So true, Karen. So well said!!! <3 

[Rachel1963]

Just stopping by to say hello Karen and hope all is well. I loved your idea about bringing little meals for lunch. Wow! That's so awesome about your hubby! I remember when I was turtle tapering off Valium. When I was about 1/2 way I made the tiniest cuts like you. It was so hard to move one bit further. But then when I got to the lower amounts the cuts bothered me less and less and I was able to manage it quite well so that I felt like I was finished even before I was finished. I know they are different from each other but maybe you will have a similar experience too as your body gives it up. I bet you will! Thinking of you, Rachel x

[KarenB]

Hey thanks Rachel, that's really encouraging for me. 

 

My hold is going well - must be 3 or 4 weeks into it now, and still noticing gradual improvements.  Although having more symptoms yesterday and today due to family arriving tomorrow.  (Love them so much, but can't seem to prevent the stress building up...)  I am cooking, but I am NOT tidying the house.  They can love me or leave me .  Boy, hope they choose the first option .

 

I think you are so brave to have taken on work again. 

[KarenB]

From Short Notes from the Long History of Happiness by Michael Leunig:

 

We struggle, we grow weary, we grow tired.

We are exhausted, we are distressed, we despair.  We give up, we fall down, we let go.

We cry.  We are empty, we grow calm, we are ready.  We wait quietly. 

 

A small, shy truth arrives.  Arrives from without and within.  Arrives and is born.  Simple, steady, clear.  Like a mirror, like a bell, like a flame.  Like rain in summer.  A precious truth arrives and is born within us.  Within our emptiness.

 

We accept it, we observe it, we absorb it.  We surrender to our bare truth.  We are blessed.  We rise up.

 

For this we give thanks. 

Amen

[SkyBlue]

That is a beautiful quote.

 

How are you these days, Karen?

[KarenB]

I seem to be in a mild-moderate wave, which has been going for a few weeks now.  Can't see any particular reason for it, so am assuming it's just the windows/waves pattern of healing.  Because of this, I'm thinking I'll extend my hold from the original 2-3 months to maybe 5-6 months.  (I'm at about 3 months into it now). 

 

On the brighter side, I made two decisions which have made my life run more easily.  The first was buying an electric bike, which allows me to zap into town and back using almost zero energy, and is fun and makes me happy.  We decided to buy it instead of a second car.  Life's getting busier with our kids, and it seemed I was often stuck at home if hubby had taken the kids to sports things.

 

The second was signing up to the HelpX and WWoof websites.  These are where you give travelers accommodation and food in exchange for about 4 hours work per day.  So I am now keeping on top on the garden and house work and that feels really good.  I've been having one for 4-5 days every couple of weeks, and it's working really well for our family.  

 

So overall, I'm feeling frustrated with this wave, but am managing it and also feeling very pro-active in making my life work better for me.

 

Thanks for checking in SkyBlue - it gave me a good chance to update. 

[nick1990]

Sorry to hear about the wave but glad your managing well the woof ing sound ideal! How are your energy levels? Have you found that your waves have lessened in intensity with the hold??

[KarenB]

They are less intense, but seem to last longer.  Don't know if that's better or worse really.  Well, it's probably better . 

 

Energy pretty low over the last few days, but that's cause the wave got compounded by family visiting, my monthly visiting, and probably pushing myself a bit too much.  So I'm in go-slow mode now, building myself back up again.  I quite enjoy doing this actually - watch a few movies, have a hot bath, tell the family to make their own tea...

[Rain]

It is nice to hear that your wave has been less intense, I think you will get better and better! 

[KarenB]

Thanks Rain - I think so too.  Hope you are ticking along okay.

[KarenB]

UPDATE:  ONE YEAR OF TAPERING

 

Have gone from my original 150mg to roughly 133mg.  Not as fast as I'd hoped when I started, but it is what it is. 

 

I am now 4 months into a hold.  Have noticed no real improvements, and the last month or so has been one long but mild wave.  Though it's worse this last week, with tinnitus, waking at night, irritability, sore and blocked ears and tingly skin.

 

I plan to keep holding to see if some good stabilisation happens after this wave ends.   

 

Still doing all my self-care things, and have added MSM into my supplements, which seems to help with energy. 

 

I have become concerned that tapering so slowly is extending my drug use from the 5 years I was originally on them to something like 13 years (combined drug use and tapering).  I know the dose is lessening, but still... Again though, it is what it is.  Not too many options. 

 

Overall I feel quite strong and happy and okay; sometimes I have a melt-down and a good cry and watch movies. 

[bubble]

Hello Karen,

 

as I'm slowly returning to the land of the living I was wondering how you are doing (I think I read in your reponses on someone's post that you were doing better). Sorry to read that you feel like there have been no real improvements. I'm 5 months into a hold and can definitely feel improvements (which was much needed because I was very dysfunctional for months).

 

I can totally sympathise with your quiet despair over how long this is taking but I really think you won't have to go at such an extremly slow rate. Looking at your signature again I just think how nasty drug escitalopram is, 20 mg a high dose, alternating days horribly destabilising, then again switching to Effexor... and I would say no wonder you are struggling. I would even go as far as to say that you might still be recovering from escitalopram WD... I noticed that peole who were on higher dosages than me and longer but didn't attempt to come off or reduce (in the ill-advised manner that we only knew) are having easier time tapering. I just don't know what I can achieve tapering while I'm still symptomatic by however little except to get even more symptomatic (and thus making the whole process last even longer, not to mention suffering).  

 

Having said that, I'm again experiencing the miracle of neuroplasticity and healing and I still believe in the healing power of holds as frustrating it is to do what looks like nothing.

 

I really hope you start feeling real and noticeable improvements soon...

 

Hugs,

Bubble

[KarenB]

Thank you Bubble for those thoughts.  It's nice to know someone has a look in every now and then, just in case I'm missing something.  I know it's often easier to see issues in other people's cases than in our own, so sometimes I wonder if there's things in my situation I'm just not seeing. 

 

It's interesting what you say about still having w/d from the escitalopram - I tend to forget all that stuff from before, all the complications, and so in my head I'm just tapering efexor. 

 

I hope I get some improvements soon too.  Sometimes I realise I'm thinking life will always be like this.  But, of course, it won't.  So healing must happen.  The strange thing is I do believe so strongly that healing does happen.  Thoughts are funny things. 

 

I really appreciate your response Bubble, and I'm really encouraged to read you are experiencing healing.

Hugs back to you too,

Karen

[nick1990]

Just popping in touch say hi ! Hope your doing ok Karen I genuinely think bubble is on to something. This sooo could be escitalopram wd!!! And when the effexor caused you trouble from the get go, that could have been from introducing a new drug to an alreAdy destabilized system, which just pushed you further away from stability. So it very well could be that a looonnnnngggg hold here could do something good. I understand you saying that you haven't noticed improvement throughout this hold, but are you certain? I know from my hold that it took quite a while to notice improvements, but when I reallly thought about it, there were subtle improvements happening from early on.

Hugs!!

[KarenB]

Thanks Nick - you are always good at encouraging me.  I'm in a bit of a down place right now - I seem to have got a light cold, stress of family coming tomorrow, and some general depressed feelings.  Up last night with a sick daughter...  It's a dip; I know it'll get better.  I'm giving myself lots of rest and good food etc.  Coping skills much better than they used to be, but  - you know - it's a bit depressing being depressed . 

 

And then I get really angry at this whole w/d thing, and the makers of the drugs etc.  Blah.  One day it'll all be behind me. 

 

Hope you got a good surf on your way home the other week.  The weather sure has turned on us lately. 

[nick1990]

Sorry to hear Karen. But yeh it'll pass. I too haven't been feeling amazing for the last few days - but the start of winter always plays with me. I think that if you just remind yourself every time you feel low that this will one day be a distant memory , that's a great start. Ive been reading a lot of books which focus on Buddhist techniques recently and WOW.. this stuff is revolutionary. I really recommend looking into it if you haven't already surf was sooo fun. Had about an hour of light left by the time I was all wetsuited up and ready to go but got some great waves out the very back of the point. I surfed till dark though, which is never a good idea at raglan.. lots of sharp, slippery rocks . Cut up my feet. Definitely worth it though.

You'll get there Karen . Its going to be all good . *hugs*