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The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

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MRothbard

how long was your wave...

 

...at the roughly 6 month mark. The one I'm in started around the first of October.

 

Edited by ChessieCat
added full topic title to post

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Galmond
On 11/17/2018 at 8:44 AM, WiggleIt said:


Improvement from the artificially induced, drug-induced depression/terror/fear took around a year.  Then maybe another year for my personality to really stabilize close to what it was before meds.  Now, I'm four years off and my personality and moods feel very stable.  

I do suffer from a different kind of depression now because my physical health was permanently damaged by the meds, but I feel well-equipped to handle this depression.  Honestly, I'm pretty proud of how well I carry this weight.  I did not suffer from depression before meds. 

What do you think was permanently damaged by the meds?

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Chochka

I have a question about waves and how they operate. I've been completely off everything for over two years now and initially was really bad but could see a slow improvement. However, after about 18 months I went back into a deep wave which hasn't improved at all and I'm still in it 7 months later. I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking it will go on for ever. It's nearly as bad as when I first came off and doesn't seem to fit the pattern where things slowly improve. Anyone else had this?

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Nena59
On 12/8/2018 at 1:32 AM, Chochka said:

I have a question about waves and how they operate. I've been completely off everything for over two years now and initially was really bad but could see a slow improvement. However, after about 18 months I went back into a deep wave which hasn't improved at all and I'm still in it 7 months later. I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking it will go on for ever. It's nearly as bad as when I first came off and doesn't seem to fit the pattern where things slowly improve. Anyone else had this?

Chochka,

I am going through this. I have been off 2 plus years and feel wd pretty bad. It seems I felt better, in that I had more windows, months ago. I did have some setbacks, my dad died in March and my mom had successful cancer surgery in April. I also get migraines almost weekly for sometimes multiple days (these are a lifetime problem, but it really affects me).

I am really getting discouraged. My main symptom is anhedonia...no joy, no energy, no hope. Any type of stress seems to affect me. I have at times thought that I wish to be dead. I wonder if I will have to go back on antidepressants. I've tried counselors, but they don't believe in paws. I have a very supportive group of friends and family. I don't know what to do except push, push, push. Mornings are usually pretty bad, but evenings are sometimes better.

I would love to hear any encouragement. I'm scared that since this is not really improving much that this is it.

Sorry that I can't give you positive words, sounds like we are in the same space.😢

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Chochka

Hi Nena.

 

Firstly, thank you for replying, it's nice to touch base with someone who is going through a similar thing. I also suffer from a lack of motivation, not anhedonia as such but I can't be bothered to do stuff most of the time, even things I know I enjoy. A lot of my problems are physical - I feel hungover most of the time with aches and pains and really bad drowsiness and tinnitus. I also suffer badly with a lack of concentration and cognitive problems. Sometimes I can barely string a sentence together and I can't remember what I'm reading about. I am also prone to being in really irritable moods and tearfulness. Yesterday I was so angry all day I was in tears with frustration. I was like this for the first year I came off but then things improved and although I was up and down every day I always had a part of the day where I felt ok or a lot better. I thought I was heading for the end if it all. I even went on a research trip to Zimbabwe in April and was really positive about getting my life back finally. Then suddenly in May, in Zimbabwe, I had an enormous crash and I'm back nearly to how bad it was 2 years ago and no let up for months. I'm also scared that it's not improving much and that this is it too. I've been really struggling since I crashed.

 

Positive words wasn't what I was after so much as a connection with someone else going through the same thing.I know my post won't be very encouraging to you either but I was very happy that you replied. I did get something off one of the moderators saying that she had never known anyone not recover so that was encouraging. I'm sure this is another phase but it's gone on for so long now that I'm getting discouraged too. I'd really like to stay in touch, and also hear from others in the same situation. I'm sure we are not the only ones with this experience. 

 

Hope to speak again soon xxx

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Spruce30

Hi Chochka. I have had a similar experience to you.

 

I have been off 3 1/2 years. I felt I was making good progress in late 2017/ early 2018, but since then my waves have got a bit less intense which is good, but they have also got a lot longer. It seems some aspects are getting slightly better, but other aspects are getting worse.

 

It is very frustrating and as Nena 59 said, sometimes I feel I am not making progress, and like this is as good as it gets.

 

It feels everytime I feel I make a step forward, I then go two steps backwards. 

 

I am currently in a wave that has gone on for about 50 days.

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Help777

Hi,

I would really value hearing one of the moderator’s thoughts on these entries because I have had similar questions.

with many thanks,

help

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WiggleIt
On 12/3/2018 at 8:44 AM, Galmond said:

What do you think was permanently damaged by the meds?

Dear Galmond,

I don't just "think" I was damaged.  I know I was damaged.  My altered physical mobility after the meds is quite apparent to everyone in my life.  I incurred a movement disorder (tardive dystonia) that has never fully healed.  It causes me to limp (because my right leg now permanently drags), walk with a cane, and if my muscles get overexerted, then the movement disorder will flare up into large tremors and visible jerking in my limbs.  As long as I don't strain myself, only the limp is noticeable to others.  Because my muscles no longer respond normally, I have pain all over my body all the time to some degree or another.  My physical fatigue is devastating and totally disruptive to living a normal life.  

I also now suffer from various neurological disturbances that I definitely did not have before the meds, particularly sensory hypersensitivity.  There has been improvement, but never a return to the fully physically healthy person I was before meds.  Meds also triggered some alopecia that has never fully recovered.  It's not severe, but it's enough to wound my pride, even though I can hide it.

And yet, I do cope with all of these things without medication.  I don't take anything for the physical symptoms and am proud of the fact that I survive not-too-disgracefully on a daily basis. :)  
 

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Chochka
14 hours ago, Spruce30 said:

Hi Chochka. I have had a similar experience to you.

 

I have been off 3 1/2 years. I felt I was making good progress in late 2017/ early 2018, but since then my waves have got a bit less intense which is good, but they have also got a lot longer. It seems some aspects are getting slightly better, but other aspects are getting worse.

 

It is very frustrating and as Nena 59 said, sometimes I feel I am not making progress, and like this is as good as it gets.

 

It feels everytime I feel I make a step forward, I then go two steps backwards. 

 

I am currently in a wave that has gone on for about 50 days.

Yes, I'm also in a long wave which shows no sign of going away. It's lasted 7 months now and I'm all over the place. Before that I felt like I was doing pretty well and I could see the end of it but now I can't. The waves have got a bit less intense but actually not that much. It's very frustrating. I think the worst aspect of all of this is the not knowing what is going on and when I can expect an end to it. 

 

It's nice to hook up with you though. Just knowing that someone else is also experiencing this gives me hope that this is more 'normal' and I'm not going to be the one who never recovers.

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Galmond
12 hours ago, WiggleIt said:

Dear Galmond,

I don't just "think" I was damaged.  I know I was damaged.  My altered physical mobility after the meds is quite apparent to everyone in my life.  I incurred a movement disorder (tardive dystonia) that has never fully healed.  It causes me to limp (because my right leg now permanently drags), walk with a cane, and if my muscles get overexerted, then the movement disorder will flare up into large tremors and visible jerking in my limbs.  As long as I don't strain myself, only the limp is noticeable to others.  Because my muscles no longer respond normally, I have pain all over my body all the time to some degree or another.  My physical fatigue is devastating and totally disruptive to living a normal life.  

I also now suffer from various neurological disturbances that I definitely did not have before the meds, particularly sensory hypersensitivity.  There has been improvement, but never a return to the fully physically healthy person I was before meds.  Meds also triggered some alopecia that has never fully recovered.  It's not severe, but it's enough to wound my pride, even though I can hide it.

And yet, I do cope with all of these things without medication.  I don't take anything for the physical symptoms and am proud of the fact that I survive not-too-disgracefully on a daily basis. :)  
 

Thank you for the reply. I asked the question because I also believe I have and suffer from irreparable damage. Pain is my biggest issue. I've had chronic body pain for 17 months now with no improvement. I also get the tremors in my muscles and suffer from no energy and fatigue. Just trying to see if anyone has had irreparable symptoms and admit it. Because I do think of possibly going back to meds. For me if it gives me better quality of life than this why not. But thanks for the detailed reply.

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Nena59
20 hours ago, Help777 said:

Hi,

I would really value hearing one of the moderator’s thoughts on these entries because I have had similar questions.

with many thanks,

help

I would also!

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Tom37

Hello,

 

Just  wondering if anyone has the experience of dropping to fast and trying to stabilise after a small updose  and while doing so get huge waves and windows?

 

I just had an 8 day period where I thought I was done as felt basically back to withdrawal normal (about 90 percent) but two nights ago was sent back to a brutal wave. The symptoms of the wave are different than last two but constantly have a feeling of just being soooo unwell kinda like when you have the flu. Nothing you do can make it feel better. Today is one of the few days when I have felt like being in bed is the only option. Plus have a dry mouth, go warm then cold, neuro thoughts, and trouble sleeping. Thankfully the constant shaking, anxiety, nausea, burning, and back agitation have not come back.

 

Just looking for reassurance that what I’m going through is quite common when trying to stabilise or should it be more of a gradual improvement over time? It’s just over a month since I updosed.

 

Im assuming the good window I had is a good sign as well as the earlier symptoms not returning in this wave.

 

Hate to say it but this does make me scared about how long this will go on for.

 

 Thanks 

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Kittygiggles

Hi @Tom37 ,

I think any windows are a good sign that you've not swayed too far from the healing track. I think it is common after updosing for stabilization to take a while (days, weeks, or months) and for you to experience waves and windows randomly throughout but there should be a gradual trend of things getting better generally; otherwise it's not stabilization in my opinion.

 

Nothing you mentioned is very surprising so you may take that as a good sign; although I've only my own experience to go on. Is your wave still going? From your post I see it's been about 3 days. Is that longer than your usual waves? I would try to work out how long and intense this wave is compared to your previous ones and if it seems closer to what you experienced during your worst waves then another slight increase may be in order. If not then you may be best served by holding for longer.

 

What is hard to work out is why the symptoms of this wave are different to your last two. It's not surprising with these drugs but it makes it harder to discern the cause. Could it be linked to the diazepam rather than the Lexapro? That's my suspicion and it may be worth stopping the diazepam if you can. I am not sure how to taper from a tranquilizer but tapering may not be necessary as I see from your signature you've not used it much. Even a small cluster of uses could mess things up temporarily so if it is safe and okay for you to do so, I'd give up the tranquilizers. Magnesium is pretty calming if you have it and can tolerate it. 

 

I hope things are going better for you, your wave doesn't sound pleasant at all!

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Tom37

Hey,

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

The first wave after increasing lasted 13 days and had a lot more symptoms than this current one so would say this one is ‘weaker’ so far. Had terrible shaking in my legs, nausea, physical anxiety, weird heartburn feeling, feeling like I had the flu yet this wave most of that hasn’t  returned apart from the terrible flu like feeling which has eased considerably today.

 

This one has been going three days but today has been better so hopefully it continues. Actually started almost the same as the first one in had a weird headache, couldn’t sleep and got a terrible dry mouth the first night.

 

Yes have only used the diazepam on two occasions for no longer than 3 nights in a row with a gap of 10 days in between. Dose was quite low and only taken once at night, never during the day but yes very conscious of taking it too often.

 

 

Thanks

 

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Justcope
On 11/18/2018 at 7:29 AM, Allreadygone said:

I’m currently holding due to destabilized CNS of to fast taper of Effexor&Company.Did any of you have this happen then stabilize to continue taper?Its been 2 months with Brutal symtoms But I know it takes time @WiggleIt  @Justcope

I’m stuck on 5mg still. Pretty stable with some small waves probably due to the Christmas period, being very tired and run down. I feel good here so I’m too afraid to stop... 

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Allreadygone

Thx for replying @JustcopeDid u ever become destabilized during ur taper,have to updose or reinstate?I completely fell off,mainly brutal mental symtoms after vertigo.I did have a 3week window of less pain but it popped up last week as u said on Xmas amd I was mentally non functional.Now I m hangin on for it to slow again.im on 3 meds still but if I get to a so called wd stable place I’m gonna hold for a long time I’m afraid as well. @Justcope

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Miko789
On 12/9/2018 at 6:50 PM, Nena59 said:

Chochka,

I am going through this. I have been off 2 plus years and feel wd pretty bad. It seems I felt better, in that I had more windows, months ago. I did have some setbacks, my dad died in March and my mom had successful cancer surgery in April. I also get migraines almost weekly for sometimes multiple days (these are a lifetime problem, but it really affects me).

I am really getting discouraged. My main symptom is anhedonia...no joy, no energy, no hope. Any type of stress seems to affect me. I have at times thought that I wish to be dead. I wonder if I will have to go back on antidepressants. I've tried counselors, but they don't believe in paws. I have a very supportive group of friends and family. I don't know what to do except push, push, push. Mornings are usually pretty bad, but evenings are sometimes better.

I would love to hear any encouragement. I'm scared that since this is not really improving much that this is it.

 

Try not to fear, there is hope,

Mornings are not good for me either, but I push. evenings are better, are you currently working? Try to find some interests like hobbies, sports, gym, its very important to keep the  mind busy.

 

 

Have you tried in the past any herbs supplements like Omega 3 fish oil, you can purchase it from ebay, or indian herbs for energy, ashwaganda is good for relax

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Gridley

Miko, I'm sorry you're feeling so bad.  Unfortunately, recovery from these drugs takes time, more than we'd like.  No, doctors and counselors don't believe in PAWS but it is very real.

 

How Long Is Withdrawal Going to Take?

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Nevertoolate

I think I'm starting to see a bit of a pattern with the windows and waves and wonder if anyone else can relate? 

When I'm in waves I don't dream. I sleep like the dead but I've started to connect the periods of dreaming with the onset of a window. 

My thought is the dreaming phase is when the brain is rewiring itself or sorting things out?? 

Does this sound feasible? 

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RusTW
On 2/15/2018 at 12:29 PM, Vonnegutjunky said:

Sorry if there is already a similar topic, just looking for others who may also experience these extreme windows and waves. 

 

When im in a wave it seems I’ll never feel better again, and like my windows weren’t real. 

Then when I’m in a window I feel so normal, motivated, almost good, and it feels like my waves are all done and they won’t come back. 

 

They are just so extreme. 

 

Can anyone else relate? 

Do they become less extreme? 

Hi V I do relate. My windows are so clear.For a few months off and on.now back into a really bad wave going on 2 weeks

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Vonnegutjunky
56 minutes ago, RusTW said:

Hi V I do relate. My windows are so clear.For a few months off and on.now back into a really bad wave going on 2 weeks

Thank you Rus, it’s so mind boggling 

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