Laura1981: Stopped venlafaxine (Effexor) after 5 days on it. Do I need to taper to prevent lasting damage?

[Laura1981]

Oh no! I'm so sorry this happened to you! We should write a book!

[Laura1981]

Today I feel like giving up. It feels like those f***** doctors with their drugs have successfully destroyed me. Any little bit of self esteem that the drugs didn't damage, the doctors successfully eradicated with their ignorant, incompetent and condescending attitude. 

 

I really feel like there's no future. Not sure if this is still the withdrawals still or if it's the real me that has just crumbled. 

[Muddles]

Hang on in there Laura.

 

Have you seen this? You want to go?

 

http://cepuk.org/moreharmthangood/

[Laura1981]

Thanks Muddles!

 

Your support means so much to me! I hope you're doing a bit better!

 

I would love to go to the conference. Are you going? 

[Muddles]

I want to go. My husband is going but I just never know how I am going to be one day to the next. I am going to book a ticket for me though and if I can't go I'm sure someone would go with him.

[Laura1981]

I'm the same. I have no idea what will be in September. Will I be alive? Will I be working again and have no time for events? 

 

I just booked a ticket anyway. I'll book the flights a little bit later when I can plan better. I'm sure we'll find someone who wants the ticket in case we can't make it. 

[Laura1981]

I thought it's time to update my thread again. Things are still the same: Brain zaps and other head symptoms, muscle twitches, neuro emotions day in day out. 

 

And an army of ignorant, idiotic doctors telling me I have to "get to grips with my anxiety". I hate these stupid idiots. 

 

They poison you and then they play dumb. I hope the universe gives them what they deserve some day. 

[freespirit]

I thought it's time to update my thread again. Things are still the same: Brain zaps and other head symptoms, muscle twitches, neuro emotions day in day out. 

 

And an army of ignorant, idiotic doctors telling me I have to "get to grips with my anxiety". I hate these stupid idiots. 

 

They poison you and then they play dumb. I hope the universe gives them what they deserve some day. 

 

Hi Laura,

 

I count on karma to give back what these jerks have dished out. I'm with you on hating docs.

 

I'm sorry you're still suffering...it's disheartening dealing with the symptoms day after day.

[AliG]

Hey Laura,   I'm the same.  Don 't give up.

[Laura1981]

Thanks so much Freespirit and AliG! 

 

I don't know if I would have survived this without the help of this amazing community! I really think lives are being saved here every day! 

[bluebalu86]

Hi Laura, thanks so much for stopping by on my thread. Your support means a lot to me. I hate doctors and pharma companies as much as you do. I can't believe what happened to us actually happens to people in the 21st century, it's surreal and unbelievable. We have to hold on and wait for healing and not let these bastards win. I wish you all the best honey

[Laura1981]

Awww, thanks so much for stopping by too! I've been following your thread for a while and I'm so sorry that you're suffering so much. 

 

It's atrocious what your doctor has done to you! We won't let them win! We'll wait for healing and then we'll do something about this.

 

These doctors are using a very sophisticated way of torture, sadly without even realizing it themselves. It's such an irony. Those doctors are unintentionally destroying their patients and even congratulating themselves for it. It's really beyond ridiculous. 

[AliG]

It.s atrocious.!! Thanks Laura.  Thanks Blue.

[Laura1981]

Bl**dy he**..... I'm trying to do some stuff that I used to do in college. A stupid homework that four months ago would have taken me an hour is now taking me three days. 

 

I feel brain damaged!!! 

[akakoom]

it's easy:

main( ) {        printf("hello, world");}

hang in there laura.  we can get better.  life is worth it. Don't punish yourself for not being able to do things that used to be easy.  I know, I am the worst for doing that.  Every day we get a bit better

 

i feel brain damaged too

[oskcajga]

Hi Laura, I read through your thread and I was very much disheartened to hear that you had an adverse reaction after just 5 days that have left you in an altered state to this day.  I personally "stuck with it" after having a bad reaction to effexor as well, and stayed on for 5 months before experiencing memory loss.  I've been more or less completely disabled ever since I stopped taking it. It's been about 2 years now - I messed up and smoked pot and drank too much alcohol, which made things like 3X worse, but I totally get what you're going through.

 

I know the feeling of not being able to do what I used to be able to do - I managed to get quite far into an advanced degree program, teaching classes, and doing competitive research - that all had to stop when I had my adverse reaction - unfortunately .    The whole experience defeated me so much - I can't even begin to understand the long term repercussions.  My life has just slowly disintegrated since my adverse reaction about 2 years ago - I managed to graduate with my degree, but obviously couldn't get a job or even talk to people and network.  I just ended up driving home and moving in with my dad (my mother is not a good or helpful person through this experience).  I've just slowly ran out of money, and everything is dying away.  I want it to end   I can't handle it very well sometimes.  Other times I'm ok.  I've gotten better and then worse, and then better, and then worse - it's like riding a nightmare rollercoaster that occasionally gets high enough to see that things will be OK, but then descends back into a hellish swamp that you can barely breathe in.

 

I've read stories of people who have taken just a single pill and have had issues like your describing.  I'm confident that you and everyone else will recover.  I would really love to know what exactly went wrong physiologically.

 

If you can get these symptoms from just 5 pills, I cannot fathom what is occurring physiologically that could do it - too much serotonin in the synapse for 5 days? 

 

-

 

Are you going to that CEP conference?  I have no money to my name, or I wouldn't hesitate to head over there and support it.  I would like to go to some events or something, but I'm not aware of any either. 

 

Anyways, I just thought I'd drop it and say hello, and that I'm sorry you're going through this.

 

Love and hugs.

[Laura1981]

it's easy:

main( ) {        printf("hello, world");}

Ahhhhh, you made me laugh I had almost forgotten how to do this! Thaaaanks!!! 

 

I would have no idea what to do without the support of this community! You're all angels! 

[Laura1981]

Thanks so much for your support Osk! 

 

I've read your thread. What happened to you really breaks my heart! I can tell from your posts that you're a really intelligent person. You have so much potential and it's heartbreaking that your plans and life were disrupted so heavily by this adverse reaction. 

 

I say disrupted because I don't think they have been entirely blocked. I am very, very confident that you will recover and get to a point where you're well enough to pursue your future again. 

 

Sometimes life looks hopeless. I have been at a very hopeless point in the past. At that stage, I only had myself to blame for it. It looked like I'd never going to get anywhere in life. I came out of it after a couple of years and built a pretty ok life for myself.  

 

I think this situation is similar, with the difference that the only ones to blame are the pharmaceutical industry and our doctors. This has been inflicted on us but we will survive it and get on with our lives afterwards. 

 

The question as to what exactly happened keeps me up a lot. I don't think we'll ever entirely clarify it, but I think it has a lot to do with genetics. I am in a group on facebook with other people who had those severe, immediate reactions. A girl says she did the 23andme test and found that she has inactive genetic alleles of the genes which metabolize drugs. There's a couple of papers already that point to these alleles inducing psychosis, homocide and suicide. 

 

If that is true, I think the cells in the brain & body get overwhelmed with antidepressant. For me it was not only my brain that was fried, it was my whole body. The antidepressant potentially doesn't even get broken down into it's active ingredient (Venlafaxine -> Desmethylvenlafaxine) Maybe the inactive ingredient is cytotoxic? Or maybe because of the huge concentration of drug in the cell, all our receptors vanish and it's basically like a cold turkey from 1000mg instead of 75mg in a normal person? 

 

But that's just one of the many theories I came up with since this whole disaster happened to me. Maybe I'll change my mind again. 

 

I really hope to go to the CEP conference. I want to thank the speakers personally for their fight against SSRI and ask them if they have any ideas what we as patients can do to advance the fight. I hope in September my finances will be so that I can go. 

 

I wish you lots of healing Osk! I think you're already more healed than you think! 

[oskcajga]

Thanks so much for your support Osk! 

 

I've read your thread. What happened to you really breaks my heart! I can tell from your posts that you're a really intelligent person. You have so much potential and it's heartbreaking that your plans and life were disrupted so heavily by this adverse reaction. 

 

I say disrupted because I don't think they have been entirely blocked. I am very, very confident that you will recover and get to a point where you're well enough to pursue your future again. 

 

Sometimes life looks hopeless. I have been at a very hopeless point in the past. At that stage, I only had myself to blame for it. It looked like I'd never going to get anywhere in life. I came out of it after a couple of years and built a pretty ok life for myself.  

 

I think this situation is similar, with the difference that the only ones to blame are the pharmaceutical industry and our doctors. This has been inflicted on us but we will survive it and get on with our lives afterwards. 

 

The question as to what exactly happened keeps me up a lot. I don't think we'll ever entirely clarify it, but I think it has a lot to do with genetics. I am in a group on facebook with other people who had those severe, immediate reactions. A girl says she did the 23andme test and found that she has inactive genetic alleles of the genes which metabolize drugs. There's a couple of papers already that point to these alleles inducing psychosis, homocide and suicide. 

 

If that is true, I think the cells in the brain & body get overwhelmed with antidepressant. For me it was not only my brain that was fried, it was my whole body. The antidepressant potentially doesn't even get broken down into it's active ingredient (Venlafaxine -> Desmethylvenlafaxine) Maybe the inactive ingredient is cytotoxic? Or maybe because of the huge concentration of drug in the cell, all our receptors vanish and it's basically like a cold turkey from 1000mg instead of 75mg in a normal person? 

 

But that's just one of the many theories I came up with since this whole disaster happened to me. Maybe I'll change my mind again. 

 

I really hope to go to the CEP conference. I want to thank the speakers personally for their fight against SSRI and ask them if they have any ideas what we as patients can do to advance the fight. I hope in September my finances will be so that I can go. 

 

I wish you lots of healing Osk! I think you're already more healed than you think! 

 

Thank you for your response.  I really appreciate many of the positive, uplifting and encouraging things that you had to say. 

 

That's an interesting theory about the possibility that the original compound is cytotoxic - esp. if it's not broken down by the liver enzymes.  That's definitely one possibility.

 

Another thing I don't understand is how some people can have no symptoms at all, and then if they too quickly taper, suddenly they all appear.  It's almost as if the lack of the drug in the system causes some sort of cytotoxic effect. 

 

The confusing part is 1)  people like yourself, who take just a couple of pills and have a bad reaction, and 2)  People who taper too quickly  - BOTH have the same sort of symptoms.  So the same result seems to happen from two widely different scenarios.

 

WTF life?

[oskcajga]

Thanks so much for your support Osk! 

 

I've read your thread. What happened to you really breaks my heart! I can tell from your posts that you're a really intelligent person. You have so much potential and it's heartbreaking that your plans and life were disrupted so heavily by this adverse reaction. 

 

I say disrupted because I don't think they have been entirely blocked. I am very, very confident that you will recover and get to a point where you're well enough to pursue your future again. 

 

Sometimes life looks hopeless. I have been at a very hopeless point in the past. At that stage, I only had myself to blame for it. It looked like I'd never going to get anywhere in life. I came out of it after a couple of years and built a pretty ok life for myself.  

 

I think this situation is similar, with the difference that the only ones to blame are the pharmaceutical industry and our doctors. This has been inflicted on us but we will survive it and get on with our lives afterwards. 

 

The question as to what exactly happened keeps me up a lot. I don't think we'll ever entirely clarify it, but I think it has a lot to do with genetics. I am in a group on facebook with other people who had those severe, immediate reactions. A girl says she did the 23andme test and found that she has inactive genetic alleles of the genes which metabolize drugs. There's a couple of papers already that point to these alleles inducing psychosis, homocide and suicide. 

 

If that is true, I think the cells in the brain & body get overwhelmed with antidepressant. For me it was not only my brain that was fried, it was my whole body. The antidepressant potentially doesn't even get broken down into it's active ingredient (Venlafaxine -> Desmethylvenlafaxine) Maybe the inactive ingredient is cytotoxic? Or maybe because of the huge concentration of drug in the cell, all our receptors vanish and it's basically like a cold turkey from 1000mg instead of 75mg in a normal person? 

 

But that's just one of the many theories I came up with since this whole disaster happened to me. Maybe I'll change my mind again. 

 

I really hope to go to the CEP conference. I want to thank the speakers personally for their fight against SSRI and ask them if they have any ideas what we as patients can do to advance the fight. I hope in September my finances will be so that I can go. 

 

I wish you lots of healing Osk! I think you're already more healed than you think! 

 

If you go to the CEP conference or know anyone who does, please try to get the video from the whole thing.  I'd even be willing to pay you for a copy of that, assuming its a reasonable price for such a thing.  I'm very interested in hearing what they have to say, and there are FAR too videos on the subject online.

 

Let me know as that date approaches (we have a couple of months still!!!).

 

I bet that article by Luke Montague is going to get a tremendous amount of people to attend that conference.

[Laura1981]

Oh, I love theorizing over what could cause the withdrawal. At some stage I as even obsessed it (the adverse reaction made me obsessive about things, I was never like that before) 

 

Another thing I don't understand is how some people can have no symptoms at all, and then if they too quickly taper, suddenly they all appear.  It's almost as if the lack of the drug in the system causes some sort of cytotoxic effect.

 

Hmmm, that's an interesting question. I was wondering if the withdrawal slowly damages things (not sure which things). If the person had quite healthy neurons in the first place, it could take a while until they are worn down enough from withdrawal until symptoms appear. My neurons were definitely quite fried from prolonged stress... and poisoned from the adverse reaction of course. 

 

This is from a paper: 

Preclinical and clinical studies have established an increase in glutamatergic transmission following stress and as a core component of depression as well (Harvey, 2008; Wegener et al., 2010; Gao and Bao, 2011). Considering that 5-HT can abrogate glutamate pyramidal neurons in the rat cortex (El Mansari and Blier, 1997), and that SRI discontinuation promotes a stress response in rats (Harvey et al., 2002) and in humans (Michelson et al., 2000), SRI discontinuation may very likely increase glutamate release (Karreman and Moghaddam, 1996; Timmerman et al., 1999) as part of a stress response with subsequent effects on neuroplasticity and cell survival. Given the important role of the glutamate-nitric oxide (NO) system in neuroplasticity and depression (Esplugues, 2002; Harvey et al., 2003; Dhir and Kulkarni, 2011; Wegener et al., 2010), increased glutamate-NO signalling will eventually drive structural brain changes over time, as note in the hippocampus of patients with a history of prolonged depression and repeated depressive episodes (Krishnan and Nestler, 2008; Savitz and Drevets, 2009).

 

New insights on the antidepressant discontinuation syndrome

Brian H. Harvey 1 * and Francois N. Slabbert 2

 

 

The confusing part is 1)  people like yourself, who take just a couple of pills and have a bad reaction, and 2)  People who taper too quickly  - BOTH have the same sort of symptoms.  So the same result seems to happen from two widely different scenarios.

 

WTF life?

 

I would guess this is because antidepressants are toxic, but the full damage only reveals itself after you stop taking them. I had an adverse reaction, so I incurred months worth of damage in a couple of doses. But people without adverse reaction also get their system damaged. Just slower. In my case I noticed it immediately because my body started to shut down. 

 

But the bodies of people without adverse reactions shut down slowly over time without the people noticing. 

[Laura1981]

I'm pretty sure they're going to film it again, like the Maudsley debate. That was filmed professionally. I'll make sure I find out beforehand. 

 

 

If you go to the CEP conference or know anyone who does, please try to get the video from the whole thing.  I'd even be willing to pay you for a copy of that, assuming its a reasonable price for such a thing.  I'm very interested in hearing what they have to say, and there are FAR too videos on the subject online.

 

Let me know as that date approaches (we have a couple of months still!!!).

 

I bet that article by Luke Montague is going to get a tremendous amount of people to attend that conference.

 

[oskcajga]

Oh, I love theorizing over what could cause the withdrawal. At some stage I as even obsessed it (the adverse reaction made me obsessive about things, I was never like that before) 

 

Another thing I don't understand is how some people can have no symptoms at all, and then if they too quickly taper, suddenly they all appear.  It's almost as if the lack of the drug in the system causes some sort of cytotoxic effect.

 

Hmmm, that's an interesting question. I was wondering if the withdrawal slowly damages things (not sure which things). If the person had quite healthy neurons in the first place, it could take a while until they are worn down enough from withdrawal until symptoms appear. My neurons were definitely quite fried from prolonged stress... and poisoned from the adverse reaction of course. 

 

This is from a paper: 

Preclinical and clinical studies have established an increase in glutamatergic transmission following stress and as a core component of depression as well (Harvey, 2008; Wegener et al., 2010; Gao and Bao, 2011). Considering that 5-HT can abrogate glutamate pyramidal neurons in the rat cortex (El Mansari and Blier, 1997), and that SRI discontinuation promotes a stress response in rats (Harvey et al., 2002) and in humans (Michelson et al., 2000), SRI discontinuation may very likely increase glutamate release (Karreman and Moghaddam, 1996; Timmerman et al., 1999) as part of a stress response with subsequent effects on neuroplasticity and cell survival. Given the important role of the glutamate-nitric oxide (NO) system in neuroplasticity and depression (Esplugues, 2002; Harvey et al., 2003; Dhir and Kulkarni, 2011; Wegener et al., 2010), increased glutamate-NO signalling will eventually drive structural brain changes over time, as note in the hippocampus of patients with a history of prolonged depression and repeated depressive episodes (Krishnan and Nestler, 2008; Savitz and Drevets, 2009).

 

New insights on the antidepressant discontinuation syndrome

Brian H. Harvey 1 * and Francois N. Slabbert 2

 

 

That's interesting.  Perhaps it's some sort of cell death or damage caused by this stress response.  I wonder if my massive panic attacks and psycosis from the marijuana did a similar thing.  I've been much much worse ever since smoking that pot and having like 100 panic attacks in a 6 month period.  All those stress hormones probably wrecked havoc on an already damaged brain

 

SSRIs adverse reaction + withdrawal  + huge stress responses caused by other factors = serious brain damage

[Laura1981]

I bet that's at least part of the withdrawal syndrome: Massive stress overflow. I know at least two people who got very damaged by stress alone: One got a tinnitus and one suddenly couldn't speak properly anymore.... I should really quit my job now that I think about it. 

[Laura1981]

I want my life baaaaaaaaaack!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[oskcajga]

I want my life baaaaaaaaaack!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

What is a "life" that people describe.  Isn't this "life"?

[Laura1981]

 

I want my life baaaaaaaaaack!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

What is a "life" that people describe.  Isn't this "life"?

 

 

I guess it's some kind of life. But it's not the one I wanted... I want to do sports again, surf, enjoy things, be able to use my brain. I feel like I'm going through an experience that is usually reserved for people in their 60ies (serious, life changing illness) just because my GP decided to poison me. 

 

But you're right, it is some kind of life. And gaining a life experience 30 years earlier than usual probably means we gain a lot of insight way earlier than other people. 

[Gh0st]

Hey Laura,

 

I connect with your story because I had an adverse reaction on Escitalopram 5mg after only 4 days nearly a year ago. 

 

On a side note, I see a lot of hatred for your doctors. As a student in the process of becoming a doctor, I have seen SSRI's described in my classes as "safe" "effective" and depression as simply being a "shortage of serotonin". Had I not known any better, wouldn't I trust my books? I probably would have. I agree that most doctors don't understand the dangers of SSRI's, but I don't think that this makes them evil. Years of training has repeatedly told them that these drugs are safe and that when they don't work it's because of underlying mental illness. If they don't follow the common conventions of prescribing antidepressants, the institutions they work for and their colleagues will take notice and their jobs could be at stake. It's a messed up system, but I don't see doctors as evil, just mis-leaded. The blame is spread between medical schools/ textbooks/ pharma companies/ government regulations/ doctors. 

 

I hope that you start feeling better soon! Hang in there!

[Laura1981]

Hi Ghost, 

 

thanks so much for stopping by my thread. I agree that doctors are also massively misinformed about the dangers of these drugs. 

 

However, I have actually gotten my hands on various versions of different prescription guidelines that doctors are supposed to follow when prescribing antidepressant drugs. The Irish version, the UK version and the version from the European standard book about psychotropic drug prescribing. 

 

All of these guidelines state to: 

- Explain the diagnosis and treatment options to the patient, including the option of no treatment

- Explain the potential risks and common side effects of the treatment

- Explain that the antidepressant will have to be taken for a while and slowly tapered off after finishing the treatment

- Remind patient to watch out for symptoms of serotonin syndrome and suicidal worsening

 

My doctor did none of these. He also tried to push various other, unnecessary drugs on me, both in the past and during that consultation. 

 

Additionally, he completely let me down after this adverse effect happened, minimized my issue and didn't support me at all. 

 

I have very low tolerance for people doing a bad job, even in professions where no lives are at stake. But if it's about my health, I have even less tolerance. I usually always do my due diligence in researching the dangers of things I take. In that situation, I was vulnerable because I was under huge amounts of pressure and my GP let me down. 

 

I have suffered so much in the last couple of months, lost almost everything that was important to me and I have no idea how I will carry on with my life. I just don't think I will be able not to hate that doctor. 

 

I hope that makes sense. 

 

Cheers, Laura

[Laura1981]

PS: So sorry to hear what you're going through after only 4 doses of Escitalopram. It's both horrible and incredible what those drugs can do to people. 

[oskcajga]

 

 

I want my life baaaaaaaaaack!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

What is a "life" that people describe.  Isn't this "life"?

 

 

I guess it's some kind of life. But it's not the one I wanted... I want to do sports again, surf, enjoy things, be able to use my brain. I feel like I'm going through an experience that is usually reserved for people in their 60ies (serious, life changing illness) just because my GP decided to poison me. 

 

But you're right, it is some kind of life. And gaining a life experience 30 years earlier than usual probably means we gain a lot of insight way earlier than other people. 

 

 

When I lived in California (before I was forced to move back to the East coast due to the meds issues) I was an avid surfer.  Did you surf in Ireland? 

 

I was still able to surf through much of WD, but the anhedonia and numbness in my body made me prone to injury - plus I didn't get the same emotional rush anymore.  But I did go a few times with a friend or two and also by myself.

[oskcajga]

Yes - I feel a lot like you feel - That I'm experiencing something that someone in their 50's should be experiencing.  BUT then I remember that 10,000 years ago, the life expectancy of humans was about 20-30 years - and therefore, biologically (under natural conditions) I'm at the end of my life anyways.  So when I think about it like that it doesn't make me quite as miserable.

 

Plus - we live in a very inhospitable universe - the fact that we can even "wake up" and be alive at all is a miracle on this little biosphere we like to call Earth.

[Laura1981]

When I lived in California (before I was forced to move back to the East coast due to the meds issues) I was an avid surfer.  Did you surf in Ireland? 

 

I was still able to surf through much of WD, but the anhedonia and numbness in my body made me prone to injury - plus I didn't get the same emotional rush anymore.  But I did go a few times with a friend or two and also by myself.

 

Surfing in California! I'm so jealous! Ireland has some good surf on the westcoast. You should come and try when you're recovered. 

 

I still have to go very easy on any kind of physical exercise. I overdid it a couple of times and ended up in bed all day with brain zaps so bad that I was completely incapacitated. It's a shame because I'm absolutely fanatic for sports. 

 

I also have the same problem with the emotional rush: Nothing is fun anymore. So I'd rather hang on to the good memories of certain activities that used to be fun, rather than ruin them with new, frustrating experiences. 

 

I love your positive view about the life expectancy. I think I'm in grumpy mode at the moment: I'm annoyed that I've been robbed at least a year of what should have been my life. I need to try view it your way: We're actually lucky to live in developed countries without war and with sufficient food and shelter. 

[Laura1981]

I'm so sick of this ridiculous brain impairment! I can't focus, I can't think, I can't do anything useful. 

[LoveandLight]

Sorry for hijacking your thread..but Osk's philosophical musings reminded me that I've been having strange existential thoughts..not upsetting..just strange. I want to find out the answers for random things all the time. Anyone else like this?

[LoveandLight]

I know laura, for days I've been almost glued to the coach doing nothing, staring at the wall..I don't see the point in anything when I don't enjoy one single thing..but i still kept doing stuff anyway. But now I just can't seem to make myself do anything. What a waste. I used to be intelligent, excited about things and an appetite for leaning.