Johnmtz: mirtazapine - Starting a scary journey off after 8 years

[johnmtz]

8 years ago, I had a panic attack and an episode of depression. I was not suicidal or anything. I tried SSRIs in the past and never liked them and smartly threw them away after about 2 weeks. And indeed, I always got better anyway. But for some reason, I was convinced that Mirtazapine was better and newer. That I should take this one. I was sceptical.  I wish I resisted.

 

In Canada, they start you right at 30mg. Seems that is the smallest pill.  I took it and it freaked me out. So I just chipped off the end and started with that. Since they don't make Mirtazipine small, I did my best. I was probably taking 3mg to 7.5 mg for about 4 years.

 

The sad thing is that about 4 years ago, when I was travelling, I was tapering off the Mirtazapine out of necessity because I was running out. I fell asleep with no drug one night but woke up feeling both rested but in a panic. I never felt this before in my life. I was scared and ran to a local clinic. I got another refill and took it that night. It felt like a wave of calm and release. It was then I knew I was hooked. I didn't know at that time what to do. And with my busy schedule, I just continued on 7.5 mg.  I should have researched and continued my withdrawal with that low dose. I was sleeping well without it. I was so damn close. But I didn't.

 

Then I moved to BC, Canada 3 year ago. I was having trouble sleeping so I went to a 15mg from 7.5mg, then 30, 45, then 60.  I realized it did not help with sleep anymore.  8 years ago, I would fall asleep with no effort at all. I almost always got 7 hours each night of uninterrupted sleep.  And when I was on 7.5 mg of Mirtazapine up to 3 year ago, I was also sleeping ok. In fact, no sleepless nights.  But 3 years ago, it started and it took my confidence away completely.

 

So I went to the doc and he gave me zolpidem 10mg and a months supply (he was a real pill pusher). So I took it and got hooked. The positive thing is that I reduced my Mirtazapine back down to almost nothing. However, I noticed I had withdrawals sometime so I took a 15mg from time to time. But now, I was hooked on this sleeping pill zolpidem.  I never took sleeping pills in my life. After 8 months of daily usage, I got off them. But one thing that helped me was to take a 15 mg Mirtazapine. So now I'm back on that poison again.  Then, I couldn't sleep until I took a 30mg, then 45. 

 

So now I am on this site as a new member because I am now entering my withdrawal hell. I went down to 26 mg last night. I had a hard time getting to sleep and I only slept 5 hours when I did.

 

I am scared I have screwed up my sleep. That is the worst fear I have. I have lost confidence in sleep without Mirtazapine. I know I will have other issues like depression, anxiety, mania,. That is very bad. But if I don't sleep well, then all those will get worse.

 

I am tempted to get another type of sleeping pill and alternate the use. But ultimately, I want to sleep without a pill period. I want off Mirtazapine and I want my life back. 

 

How can I get my sleep back. What have I done to my neuroreceptors?  I need sleep to function. I might have to quit my job. I have to support a family. Is there any way to help my brain heal these damaged neuro receptors that have been downregulated?  Will there be some permanent damage?

 

I appreciated the info on HI. I didn't know about that so I will try that diet.  I looked at wikipedia at the list of binding sites in the brain for Mirtazapine. Which binding site should I be the most concerned about and how can I heal my damaged brain stem?

 

Cheers,

 

J

[pieuw]

Hi johnmtz,

I can't give you any answer on your meds, but surely someone more experienced will come along soon.

As for the sleep, I know how important it feels to have a decent good night's rest. What I have learned these last few weeks however, is that we are stronger than we think. I used to sleep 9hours a night without interruption, but now I function on 5 to 6hours as well.

We all fear sometimes that we have messed up our sleep firever, but given time, I am sure our body will also heal and restore this.

Hang in there!

[johnmtz]

Thanks pieuw.  Maybe some of this is psychological too. Always depending on Mirtazapine every night for the last 3 years creates some unnecessary expectations.  I guess I just have to learn to live with less sleep for 6 months or so.  The thing is that after I get down to 15 mgs, It seems like I am not taking any drug. I am taking the sublingual tablets. Maybe I should change to the pill form again.  So if I can tolerate this, maybe when I get to 15mg, I'll stay for a month and try to jump. I'm not sure if I want to do the 10% per month. That seems too long for me. I was at 15 mg a year ago before I went up to 45. Today, I made it back to 26 mg. I will try this for two weeks and see how it goes.

 

I noticed you went pretty fast but then you had to go up. Maybe, I'll get to 7,5 mg then have to bump up to 15. My mood swings have been mitigated by taking supplements. I do get anxiety and lack concentration, focus, and depression. The depression is just the fact I know I am on a scary journey.  I'm glad you found a doctor to support you. Most doctors here just want you to stay on them forever.  So I have to find support in other places and try to handle the withdrawals the best I can.

 

Cheers

[dalsaan]

Hi Johnmtz

 

Welcome to SA. Sorry you are struggling with sleep. I'm looking for a little more info. When did you go back on mirtazapine as a regular thing? How did you drop from 45 to 26? What dosage did you drop, how often over what period of time?

 

If you could put that detail in your signature that would be great

 

Dalsaan

[johnmtz]

OK, got that in.

I got back on regular in Feb last year. The previous 8 months I was almost off of it.  However, I wasn't trying to get off of it, I was just taking a sleeping pill so I did not want two drugs in my system. So I cut back as fast as I could while on the sleeping pill. I did have symptoms like severe anxiety but then I thought it might be the sleeping pill.  Apart from have to wean myself off the sleeping pill, I did get down to taking Mirtazapine every other day or so at 15mg until Feb last year. But when I got off the sleeping pill, I just jumped to the Mirtazapine 15mg every night again.  Actually, for a couple of nights, I did not take any Mirtazapine and fell asleep. I sure wish I had started to get off then.

 

One problem is that I started taking the dissolvable tablets. These tables are disolved in your saliva and they come in 15 mg blisters. So that did two things. First, it gets to your brain faster since a tablet takes time to dissolve in your stomach and your saliva has already done that part. Second, they are small so psychologically, you think it is a small amount when in fact it is 15 mg.

 

I guess this is the point in my life when I am saying enough is enough. Since this was an antidepressant, I thought...it can't be bad( really until now). Well, now I see the source of my anxiety and OCD. I never had OCD before in my life....never.  I was never terrified to do things because of anxiety. Now I am.  But it was finally the 45 mg to go to sleep that did it for me. I guess that is where I say this is a reckless drug that will ruin me if I don't get off of it. It is not so harmless any more.

 

J

[dalsaan]

Thanks for doing that.

 

There is a wealth of information here. I recommend reading a couple of key threads:

 

What is withdrawal - http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/603-what-is-withdrawal-syndrome/

 

Why taper at 10 percent - http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1024-why-taper-by-10-of-my-dosage/page-2

 

Tips for tapering mirtazapine - http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5301-tips-for-tapering-off-remeron-mirtazapine/

 

A thread on dealing with sleep problems - http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/53-sleep-problems-that-awful-withdrawal-insomnia/

 

Two key things to keep in mind. 1) you can come off mirtazapine if you go slow and gently, 2). Mirtazapine has more significant sleep effects at lower doses. The reason drs up dose to 45 is to minimise sedation. If mirtazapine still has the capacity to make you sleepy it will do this as you go down in dose. I say if because it pooped out on me over time

 

Read some stuff, come back here and ask questions or post comments

 

Dalsaan

[johnmtz]

Great Dalsaan..I appreciate very much those links and answering my post. I'll read up some more and come back with questions or how I am doing. I feel better knowing I'm not alone on this one.  I just started with this determination so I still have a ways to go.

 

Thanks again

J

[Fresh]

Hi Johnmtz , just wanted to pop in and say hello , and welcome.    You've landed in an amazing place , as you're finding out.

 

Those teeny tiny pills are deceptive , aren't they?    You may be surprised at just how much difficulty people have getting off those last 1 or 2 mg

without rocking their boat.

If I were you , I'd be inclined to sit on 30mg for a good couple of months before decreasing , to give your system a chance to get stable on a consistent

dose. 

How many days since you dropped to 26mg?  

 

 

Best wishes ,  Fresh

[Bayboy]

 

8 years ago, I had a panic attack and an episode of depression. I was not suicidal or anything. I tried SSRIs in the past and never liked them and smartly threw them away after about 2 weeks. And indeed, I always got better anyway. But for some reason, I was convinced that Mirtazapine was better and newer. That I should take this one. I was sceptical.  I wish I resisted.

 

In Canada, they start you right at 30mg. Seems that is the smallest pill.  I took it and it freaked me out. So I just chipped off the end and started with that. Since they don't make Mirtazipine small, I did my best. I was probably taking 3mg to 7.5 mg for about 4 years.

 

The sad thing is that about 4 years ago, when I was travelling, I was tapering off the Mirtazapine out of necessity because I was running out. I fell asleep with no drug one night but woke up feeling both rested but in a panic. I never felt this before in my life. I was scared and ran to a local clinic. I got another refill and took it that night. It felt like a wave of calm and release. It was then I knew I was hooked. I didn't know at that time what to do. And with my busy schedule, I just continued on 7.5 mg.  I should have researched and continued my withdrawal with that low dose. I was sleeping well without it. I was so damn close. But I didn't.

 

Then I moved to BC, Canada 3 year ago. I was having trouble sleeping so I went to a 15mg from 7.5mg, then 30, 45, then 60.  I realized it did not help with sleep anymore.  8 years ago, I would fall asleep with no effort at all. I almost always got 7 hours each night of uninterrupted sleep.  And when I was on 7.5 mg of Mirtazapine up to 3 year ago, I was also sleeping ok. In fact, no sleepless nights.  But 3 years ago, it started and it took my confidence away completely.

 

So I went to the doc and he gave me zolpidem 10mg and a months supply (he was a real pill pusher). So I took it and got hooked. The positive thing is that I reduced my Mirtazapine back down to almost nothing. However, I noticed I had withdrawals sometime so I took a 15mg from time to time. But now, I was hooked on this sleeping pill zolpidem.  I never took sleeping pills in my life. After 8 months of daily usage, I got off them. But one thing that helped me was to take a 15 mg Mirtazapine. So now I'm back on that poison again.  Then, I couldn't sleep until I took a 30mg, then 45. 

 

So now I am on this site as a new member because I am now entering my withdrawal hell. I went down to 26 mg last night. I had a hard time getting to sleep and I only slept 5 hours when I did.

 

I am scared I have screwed up my sleep. That is the worst fear I have. I have lost confidence in sleep without Mirtazapine. I know I will have other issues like depression, anxiety, mania,. That is very bad. But if I don't sleep well, then all those will get worse.

 

I am tempted to get another type of sleeping pill and alternate the use. But ultimately, I want to sleep without a pill period. I want off Mirtazapine and I want my life back. 

 

How can I get my sleep back. What have I done to my neuroreceptors?  I need sleep to function. I might have to quit my job. I have to support a family. Is there any way to help my brain heal these damaged neuro receptors that have been downregulated?  Will there be some permanent damage?

 

I appreciated the info on HI. I didn't know about that so I will try that diet.  I looked at wikipedia at the list of binding sites in the brain for Mirtazapine. Which binding site should I be the most concerned about and how can I heal my damaged brain stem?

 

Cheers,

 

J

 

Hey johnmtz,

 

Welcome to SA, you're in good hands.  As you can see by my intro topic, I am withdrawing from Mirt as well.  You can read my signature to get the background, we all come here from different starting points but suffer and battle together.  Try not to worry too much about how long you were on it or what amounts, I think its irrelevant.  I was only on Mirt for 2 months but suffer with withdrawal nonetheless.  I want to reassure you that YOU WILL heal and get better.  But the ones that seem to suffer the most, tend to rush things out of fear that they are putting poison in their body.  I doubt you are permanently damaged but through careful and slow tapering you will get to where you want to be and eventually your sleep will return naturally.  

 

I think that once you realize you are prone to withdrawal symptoms, its a new ballgame, DO NOT rush your withdrawal, it will only make things worse.  I don't have to explain why because Dalsaan has pointed you in the right direction with all of the valuable insight and tips for withdrawing successfully on this site.  Its all here for you to research.  For me, if I followed the advice, I got better, if I tried to do my own thing, I suffered.  (you can read my posts where I was impatient).  These people on here are warriors and know their stuff.  If not for heeding their advice, I don't know where I'd be, but right now, I am fully functional and still working among all of my other responsibilities. In fact, I was asked if I was interested in a promotion by my supervisor.  I politely declined without providing the real reason, could you imagine,

 

Boss:  "Do you want a promotion, you're performing really well"

Me: "No, sorry sir, I'm trying to withdraw from a medication that vets use to fatten cats, so I need to chill for awhile"

 

I jest but it made me smile to know that I'm still kicking butt at work through all of this crap.

 

Everytime you make a drop (10% or so), yes, you will feel the symptoms including the dreaded sleep disturbances but going at this rate truly minimizes them in my experience.  I also understand and empathize with people who CT psych drugs if they are truly making them sick, I did it a few times myself during benzo tolerance.  Right or wrong, hard to say, but thankfully I found this site and chose the slow taper route with Mirt cause I am exponentially better than when all this crap started.  In fact the knowledge and resilience I'm already developing through this experience are invaluable and I never would have had them otherwise.

 

FYI, presently, I feel really good and I'm down to 3 mg on a long hold and others are lower than me and feeling well and functioning.

 

Remember, our brains will heal but at a snail's pace so be gentle.  Fear is only a state of mind, stay positive and we'll stick together and beat this thing.

 

BB

[johnmtz]

Hi Fresh,

 

I dropped to 26 mg two days ago. I've been taking the dissovable 15 mg tablets for a year now.  I like the fact it hits my brain in minutes vs much longer with a tablet.  However, you are bang on...these little white tables are very small and innocent looking and works faster for sleeping. But cutting them is tricky so I bought a pill cutter and can pretty well make 4 pieces out of it. So it should be 26.25 mg I've been taking for the last 2 days.

 

Here's what I am doing for WD. I am taking 1000mg of Inositol with Choline.  I think it helps. I don't feel as depressed and anxious. But it may still be too early to tell. I got only 5 hours sleep last night. Took an hour to get to sleep and woke up at 2:30 am with a feeling in my head I needed a "fix".  I couldn't get back to sleep so I'm just a zombie today.

 

Since these pills let me believe they are harmless, I was going up and down from 30 to 45. So maybe most of the time on 30 but many nights on concurrent 45 mg until just last week.  So I thought I would just go 10% of 30mg (by just cutting the pill in quarters) and give it a go. If I can do it, I will try to hang here for a few weeks. Ideally, I'd like to get to 15mg and hold there for a few months.

 

Since I am using the soluble tablets, I may want to eventually buy a sterile syringe and distilled water and mix it. I think it should work. I need something a bit more accurate than a pill cutter with when this goes below 15.

 

Also, I noticed that antihistamine might work better on me now. So maybe that can help calm me too. In the past an antihistamine did nothing. But I think now that the mrit has change the histamine receptors, it works on me a bit.

 

Cheers J

[johnmtz]

Hi BB,

 

Yes, you know. I was on 3 then 7.5 mg for 4 years. I never really felt it did anything for me then but took it anyway (I sure with I hadn't now). I think it did help with sleep at that dose but I could always fall asleep before the tablet kicked in. So I think the only thing it did was help put weight on me. I gained approx 10 kg. Now I am dropping a few kilos since I have less appetite. I'm taking more Omega 3 fatty acids. I hope that if I can keep the neurons healthy, perhaps they will adjust better.

 

I can't wait to get to 3 mg again and sleep well and feel normal. I am pretty sure if I get to 3mg, I will be able to simple go CT and be done with it.  But I guess everyone is sensitive in different amounts. I was never really affected at all up to 7.5 mg when I started. So I guess I made the mistake of upping the dose too fast in the past 3 years.  I had no doctor to caution me.

 

I am just the opposite right now. I am wondering if I need to tell my boss I might be a bit off on my job performance. But then that is personal info. I know I am having a hard time concentrating on what I am doing. Thankfully, I don't have any safety issues on my job.

 

Yes, staying positive is a state of mind. What I need is to reinforce positive thinking by completing milestones in my journey. Then, I can feel more positive. But it is too early and I don't want to be too positive too soon.

 

Cheers,

 

J

[Fresh]

Hey John ,    it's worthwhile investing in an electronic jeweller's scale (digital)    that weighs down to 0.001.   About $30:00 on ebay.

 

It's the period you were bouncing between 30 and 45mg that has me worried , it can sometimes take weeks to feel the w/d symptoms hit.  The

fallout from bouncing around may not have finished yet.   Or even started .

This site recommends staying on each level for 4-6 weeks as you go down , and with very good reasons.   See  "Why Taper By 10%"  in Tapering.

 

Please consider sticking for at least 4 weeks.    You will then be able to be confident in the fact that you're managing this situation in the safest way possible.

 

Also , antihistamines are dangerous for people like us.   Put your favourites into the interaction checker at www.drugs.com  along with mirtazapine and see what comes up.

[mammaP]

Hi J, welcome to SA. I would stay at 30 for a few months to stabilise before starting to taper. You've changed things up and down quite a lot and your nervous syatem needs to settle down.  As you stabilise sleep should improve again. I would be very wary of trying new things and let things settle down. Once you are stable again you could then start a slow taper. You seem to be clued up on the drug and it's solubility so should be able to taper successfully if you take it slowly. 

 

Everyone who decides to get off drugs want to do it fast, but most of the time it ends up taking much longer because going too fast means withdrawal and updosing or reinstating and having to start again.  Taking it slowly means your brain is adjusting to the small reduction with little discomfort. 

 

Read through the links Dalsaan has posted for you, the more you read and understand the more successful you will be with tapering. 

[johnmtz]

Hi Fresh,

 

I read on this site that using milk could be a good compounding mixture. I might try to dissolve the soluble tablets I have in milk and use a syringe. I could use the jeweller's scale to weight the mirt and then put that in a mixture of milk. I have plenty of the dissolvable tablets.  But you are right, just cutting the pill with a pill cutter is not really very accurate. Seems like I might be getting a bit more one night and less the other.

 

Ok, now I know this is reckless. It wasn't until I got on this site I realized you have to be doing 10%/month and extremely accurate.  My methods are pretty reckless and inaccurate. It is no wonder I haven't done damage to myself.

 

You know, one year ago I went to 60 mg for maybe two weeks when I realized this was crazy. It was so easy with these soluble tablets. And they were in 30 mg blisters. So I was thinking it was not too bad. But then I felt the drug was overwhelming so I fortunately backed off to 45 mg. Then I got on the sleeping pill and cut way back on the mirt for 8 months very quickly.

 

I thought my symptoms of high anxiety and OCD was just the sleeping pill since it is a z drug. But now, in retrospect, I see it was the mirt (perhaps some of the z drug).  And I got down to 15 mg when I came off the z drug and had NO WD from mirt. I was so happy. But stupid me, I kept on the mirt and back up I go in one year. So the price I paid for 8 months just got undone. But I was not trying to get off the mirt at that time. Only the zolpidem.  

 

Also, a very bad thing happened to me that I caution everyone on this. When I was titrating off Zolpidem, I got sudden hearing loss and tinnitus. So I lost part of my hearing and to this day still have tinnitus. That Z drug was ototoxic. I used it too long and it damaged my hearing. So that was why I stayed on mirt.  Many people with tinnitus take mirt so I decided to stay with it.

 

But now I can cope with the T. I may have to have hearing aids at some point but I have gotten used to my reduced hearing and mild but constant T.  So now I am ready to get off mirt.

 

By the way, I did do a 10% taper on the Z drug. But the last month I moved fast when the T hit me because I knew I had to get off quick.

 

But I'm not depressed about this. In fact, I am probably happier than I was a few years ago. Another reason I know I am ready to be drug free someday.  Drugs are dangerous to health and easy to abuse.

 

J

[johnmtz]

mammaP,

 

Yeah, I did updose after coming off the Z drug. But at that time, the Tinnitus (T) was scaring me. But when I was on 15 mg, I was feeling so good and confident. So I know I can do it again. I did set myself back a year. But my T is now better (not gone by any means but I am used to it now).  I'm pretty sure the Z drug caused the sudden sensorneural hearing loss (SSNHL). Zolpidem is ototoxic and I took it too long. Ironically, people with T take mirt. So I guess that is why I went back up.

 

But I am happy now (even after losing some of my hearing) and I am ready to get off this mirt. patiently.

 

J

[johnmtz]

Well, last night I had a problem. I just had 5 hours sleep the previous 2 nights and tried to get to sleep on 27 mg of the poison. But it did not work, I panicked because I was so tired. So I took another 15 mg of poison and now had 43 mg. So for two nights I was sleeping 5 hours but on 27 mg. Last night, I slept a nice 7 hours on the poison. Which is what I need to function.

 

Damn this poison. I was a normal person with sleep before I started this drug. It is pure evil and should be taken off the market. It is just pure evil.  Now I'm no longer the person I was. I am scared that I am going to live a live of a drug addict simply because I need sleep. Damn these incompetent, stupid, moronic, doctors pushing it like candy. Damn them all as it has damned me.

 

J

[dalsaan]

Hi Johnmtz

 

You are better off trying magnesium and/or other supplements Here is a thread with tips on sleeping http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/555-tips-to-help-sleep-so-many-of-us-have-withdrawal-insomnia/

 

You might also be generating some anxiety around your sleep, telling yourself that lower doses of mirtazapine don't work for sleep. They do work. You have to be patient You will have some sleep disturbances in withdrawal. The key strategies are to decrease slowly enough that you don't trigger a major response by your nervous system and to explore non drug ways of addressing your symptoms

 

To withdraw successfully you need patience, tolerance, courage and determination

 

Dalsaan

[johnmtz]

Hi Dalsaan,

 

I guess the scariest thing is to be dependent on something. This seems to be a common thread on this forum so I am among friends. I will start some therapy with a PsyD. I should have done that ages ago. But now I think it is worth talking to a trained psychologist to help me confront my fears of this whole process.

 

It's been a rough week but I have gone down from where I was and have gotten some good sleep. I am managing the concentration problems. I can't sit still too long so I go for a walk. I'm not very productive at work but so far, things are slow so that is a good thing.

 

Courage is something I need to build over time but I know that I can do it. Seeing other people on here do it gives me hope.

 

Cheers,

 

J

[dalsaan]

There is a whole community here that understands what is happening for you, has walked the same path and have cleared some of the obstacles. We are more than willing to provide support and encouragement for you to take control of what's happening for you and make good decisions for yourself.

 

You are not dependent in the sense of your brain needing the drug but your system has adopted coping strategies to work around its presence. We are rest abolishing the factory settings as it were. I think this is a good explanation of the process and job at hand

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1160-brain-remodeling/

 

D

[johnmtz]

Ok, an update. I tapered down quickly to 7.5 mg with no major symptoms. I then went C/T March 25. So far, only some  restlessness. I am taking 1000 mg Inositol and 500 mg Choline. I don't have depression ...just a bit more antsy is all.

 

I won't be re-instating at any cost. I'm moving on. This is not as scary as I thought. In fact, I feel empowered like I have never before. So liberating. Yes, I know I will still have WD issues.

 

For WD issues, I am seeking both a PhD psychologist and hypnotherapy. My sleep is disturbed. I am handling that with Belsomra and it works well.

 

I really appreciated all the advice. I decided to do it a way that fits my personality (I don't think there is any right or wrong way here). I do expect months of disturbed sleep and windows and waves. 

 

God I am so glad I made this decision so glad. Mirtazapine is no longer who I am or defines me any more. What poison that is. Should be as hard as benzos to get it.

[dalsaan]

Hi Johnmtz

 

Some people can get away with a fast taper, it's a risk and I would never recommend it but I hope it works out for you. Please let us know how you get on.

 

Dalsaan

[johnmtz]

One thing I wanted to do is post if this is successful because we need more success stories here too. That gives people hope.

 

I am fortunate to have setup a psychologist that knows what I am doing and will assist. A psychiatrist approved it. I am also considering hypnotherapy. So I would definitely not do this without this support in place. 

 

I'll update this in a few weeks.

[dalsaan]

How are you going Johnmtz?

[Songbird]

My sleep is disturbed. I am handling that with Belsomra and it works well.

 

Please be careful with this, as you have substituted one med for another, as with the zolpidem.  I would consider this a short-term solution and investigate non-med options such as melatonin, or herbs such as valerian, passionflower, lemon balm or hops.  If you try melatonin, be aware that it can take some trial and error to find the right dose, and often smaller doses are more effective.  With any supplement, start with a small dose and introduce only one thing at a time to see how your system reacts to it.  Relaxation exercises and sleep CDs could be worth a try and these are very safe options.

[johnmtz]

Thanks dalsaan and song bird.  Here is an update on my journey through hell. I am now 11 days off of the poison mtz. I had my first night where I slept for 4.5 hours with no sleeping pills. The Belsomra is not very pleasant or effective. So I am stopping that drug.  I have added supplements such as melatonin and lemon balm. The lemon balm also helps with anxiety.

 

So far, I had two days where the depression came back with a vengeance. I started thinking negative thoughts. I used lemon balm and the depression went away. Also, at one point, I had a panic attack of not having mtz.  By the way, I took the remaining mtz I had to the pharmacist to be destroyed. So I don't have any access to mtz. I think I have a psychological attachment after taking it everyday for 6+ years. So even if I didn't have the sleep issues and other problems, I would still have an attachment to it, as strange as that sounds. It is like losing a friend (even thought it was really the enemy).

 

Also, I am itching like crazy. Some of it was caused by the sleeping pill Belsomra and that takes awhile to get out of your system. But I think the mtz is responsible for some of this itching. I read that mtz WD does cause this. I don't have any of the other symptoms such as diarrhoea or headaches. I had that in the beginning but for the past 3 weeks, no other symptoms. Well, maybe when I wake up, my brain feels it is missing serotonin so that could be why I woke up and did not fall back to sleep. My brain felt like it was starving/craving. But I have only been C/T for 11 days now. I read that WD symptoms can hit after 3 weeks so I'm not sure I am clear of the hell yet.

 

I guess I have to get used to 4+ hours of sleep every night. I never had this problem with sleep in my life until now. I was never an insomniac. The damn mtz has pushed me to take sleeping pills and lose sleep.  Doctors are so stupid to give this long-term.  From now on, I have to be my own advocate and tell the quacks where they can stuff the next pill they try to push on me.  Most doctors get their education from drug reps (at least here in the US and Canada) so they are quite dumb vis-a-vis the long-term problems any drug can cause.  Any drug, even supplements, when given to the body long-term, the body will adjust and the external chemical will not work any more. So it is so stupid these doctors think anti-depressants can just be given for years with the same effectiveness. What dumb dumbs.

 

I am seeing a psychologist and that helps some. Ultimately, the health problem that lead to this depression has to be dealt with using counselling and not drugs. I have to come to terms with my one health problem and move on with my life. It is not life threatening anyway.  Drugging myself to forget a problem is just stupid. And stupid doctors never recommended counselling to me once....not once. Only drugs. I refused all of them but the mtz helped with sleep and seemed to have few side affects at the time so I took it. I wish I hadn't but here I am ....and I have to deal with the card I've been dealt.

 

Cheers

John

[freespirit]

Sounds like you're hanging in there Johnmtz. Good you've found some things that help in terms of supplements.

 

I'm sure I said this before, but you might find relief from itching  by reducing histamine in your diet. Even cutting back or eliminating some high histamine foods can help...with insomnia as well. I think the allergy issues are quite common coming off mirt.

 

I'm glad you found a therapist to work with, to address the underlying issues.

 

I share your distaste of doctors and their over-reliance on meds. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I rarely see my doc anymore, that I now refer to as "dr. pharma". I believe one good thing that can come out of WD is a realization that we have power with our own health, and take that responsibility, instead of putting in the hands of someone else.

 

Take care.

[johnmtz]

Yes freespirit, this is a very good lesson for me to become more self reliant and not just throw myself at the door of a "doctor" to expect some kind of magic bullet. Ultimately, I have to fix myself since only I have the power to do that. I would have come off mirt years ago but I had WD symptoms on only 7.5 mg. I freaked out and got back on the train.  I wish I was stronger back then but I did not think about looking for sites like this one and just believed doctors that I just need to stay on it.

 

That is why I have to push hard on this one. If I chicken out, it might be another 4 years before I try again. But having sites like this and people like you, I can get strength that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it does not have to be an oncoming train.

[johnmtz]

Hi freespirit. I think I do have histamine intolerance. If you look at the receptor profile of mirt, it is an antagonist to the H1 histamine receptor. So now that I removed mirt, I am getting all this itching and swelling.

 

What I need is H1-antihistamine.  This will in essence replace the mirt and induce drowsiness at night. Such antihistamines are: promethazine, alimemazine, dexchlorpheniramine, brompheniramine, buclizine, carbinoxamine and doxylamine.

 

Doxylamine is sedating and can be used as a sleeping pill for short duration.

 

I will go the the States to a GP there and talk about getting one of these H1 antihistamines. Don't use the H2 only H1. Then I would slowly do a taper of this med as the body adjusts.

 

There is also an enzyme called Diamine oxidase (DAO). I think you can buy this supplement. It is supposed to break down histamine if you take it with food.

[freespirit]

This whole thing is such a maze. I read on a couple of sites that some antihistamines can further deplete DAO, which only compounds the HI. I find with virtually any drug I take now, I either get some relief, followed by a huge rebound effect...or it immediately has a paradoxical effect. I also react to many supplements, so that isn't much of an avenue either.

 

Have you seen the site for the low histamine chef: http://thelowhistaminechef.com/

 

She works from the premise of eating a high nutrient diet over elimination..she takes very few supplements.

[johnmtz]

I can understand where you are coming from but the HI diet is so bland. I can't even eat fish for God's sake.  I think I'd rather suffer these itchy spells than go to such a bland diet. That is no fun at all.  I also think this will be temporary. I don't think this is permanent.  I guess you have had this for one year now?  I'm hoping mine will be a few months.  

[freespirit]

I've been on the diet for about 6-7 months. It is more bland than I'm used to eating for sure. I miss curries, salsa, soups, etc. I was really suffering though..not just itching, but sneezing, hives, asthma, digestive issues, and insomnia. I'm slowly trying things that I couldn't eat before..some are okay, some still aren't. I believe it is temporary, and so the does the naturopath I work with. Everyone finds their own path through this. For me, I'd rather eat a bland diet than take more drugs. But I was on 8 different medications when I started this process...and I believe I'm still detoxing from the results of all those meds. Also, I've had kidney issues in the past..so have to be more careful about what I take for drugs or supplements.

[Traveller]

Hello to all.  I am a fellow mirtazapine addict.  Was prescribed mirt after I reacted badly to Lexapro.  Started at 7.5 mg for a week, then up to 15 mg.  Worked great for sleep and depression, but left me feeling a bit numb.  After complaining of the day-after sedating effects, I was bumped up to 30 mg.  Big mistake.  At that point, my anxiety increased, and sleep became erratic.  After several weeks, I dropped back to 15 mg.  Felt fine for a few days, then on the fourth day withdrawal kicked in with a vengeance.  I've since gone back up to 30 mg, but my sleep has disappeared, and my anxiety is still high.  Tried going back down to 26.75 mg, but again, withdrawal kicked in after four days.  Chest pain, difficulty concentrating, anxiety through the roof, etc.

 

I too have a demanding job and a family to support.  How the heck will I ever get off mirt if I can't even get to 26 mg?  My psychiatrist believes mirt has not withdrawal, so he's no help.  Seeing a new doctor tomorrow, but I suspect he'll just tell me the same.

[johnmtz]

Hi Traveller,

 

Yeh...I know what you are feeling. I've now been completely off mirt for 3 weeks and it is hell.  I sleep 4 to 5 hours (My normal sleep was 7 hours before I started mirt).  I am still going through withdrawals. High depression, anxiety, nervousness. I was on 45 mg and I was getting more and more anxious and OCD too. I only had mild depression from time-to-time before this drug was introduced into my body 6 years ago. Now I have anxiety, OCD, depression to a level I never had before in my life.

 

By the way, anything over 15 mg and mirt stops being a sleeping pill and becomes a stimulant. Go to Wikipedia and look at the receptor profile of this drug. At low doses, it acts on the antihistamine receptor (H1) and will induce sleepiness. At high doses, it goes to the norepinephrine receptor and works against sleep and causes anxiety.  So anything over 15 mg and you start getting the opposite effects.  And it is so easy to get a tolerance to it so even when I tried to go down to 15 mg, I just went back up again. The best thing is just not to use the drug at all. It's not worth it.

 

Hang in there. Sounds like you may do better than you think since you were not on it that long. But get off of it as safely as you can and never use it again.

[dalsaan]

Hi traveller,

 

Can you start a thread for yourself in the intro forum. We all have one. You can cut and paste your post from this thread. Other members will see it and say hi, offer support etc

 

Dalsaan

[johnmtz]

Just an update. It has been slightly over a month since going C/T on Mirtz.  Things are getting better. Sleep returning to normal. Appetite returning to normal. Depression not really an issue. Anxiety way down. OCD way down. Histamine intolerance not an issue. Itching gone. Sometimes I take an H1 antihistamine at night to make me drowsy but I don't seem to be itching much now. Basically, feeling like I did before taking the stupid drug years ago. Kinda strange but nice.  It was a rough ride though but it was worth it.

 

This may be my last update. I guess I survived my antidepressant hell.  I learned a lot about myself and drugs in general.  I hope this gives people hope that they can do it too. You may need to go slower based on your comfort but it can be done.  Now, I will be using vitamins and psychology (CBT) to manage any residual issues.

 

Cheers,

 

John

[Petunia]

Thanks for updating John,

I'm happy to hear you are still improving, do continue to let us know how you're doing.