☼ erer: CT from Cymbalta and in trouble with Zyprexa, Diazepam and Valdoxan

[erer]

 

 

And then throw away... firmly, ANY further thoughts of tapering for a good long while. I'd say revisit the option in SIX months, (I'd think you need much longer than that... but at least make a contract with yourself to hold for that long) no sooner.

I will, I promise. I just did not know better. I had not been reading this site so thoroughly before. 

 

 

 

You might want to ask Alto to weigh in.. but please understand, it's discouraging to keep giving you advice which you 'forget' in a week or two, and then disregard with the result you keep self-harming with these medications. 

 

How can I do that? 

[Skyler]

 

 

 

You might want to ask Alto to weigh in.. but please understand, it's discouraging to keep giving you advice which you 'forget' in a week or two, and then disregard with the result you keep self-harming with these medications. 

 

How can I do that? 

 

 

Send her a PM.

[erer]

 

 

 

 

You might want to ask Alto to weigh in.. but please understand, it's discouraging to keep giving you advice which you 'forget' in a week or two, and then disregard with the result you keep self-harming with these medications. 

 

How can I do that? 

 

 

Send her a PM.

 

Ok, thanks. He/she must be awfully busy with people writing and asking for advice though.

[bluebalu86]

I agree with Skyler honey. You have been through A LOT lately. Any more changes at this point are going to destabilize you further. Now is not the time to make any more changes. I crashed in mid April and I'm still not well, I experience random waves of worsening of symptoms all the time and I dare not start tapering yet. I will wait at least till the fall/winter, if not till next year.

Do you have access to Bach Rescue Remedy drops? I don't know if they really help or it's just placebo, but sometimes I find relief from them when I'm in a crisis. 

 

Please don't adopt a negative mindset and think "I cannot do this another day"/"I cannot take this". We have people here who have dealt with severe akathisia for many months and survived. You can do it too. Don't think that you can't. It's torture, but it's survivable. 

 

I'm sending you healing thoughts and prayers. You CAN do this. And you will. We as human being are capable of enduring more than we think. 

[Altostrata]

erer, I don't know if increasing your olanzapine dose will help.

 

You are taking 1.875mg, correct? You might increase it to 2mg and see what happens.

 

You will need to give it at least a week to see how it affects you.

 

As Skyler mentioned, you need to pay a lot more attention to what you read here. When you get confused, re-read this topic, what we say is all written down. None of the staff likes to repeat instructions over and over. Please respect our time and effort.

[erer]

Thank you for your advice. 

 

You are taking 1.875mg, correct? You might increase it to 2mg and see what happens.

 

You will need to give it at least a week to see how it affects you.

 

What about if it influences me in a bad way - then there is no going back again for it would destabilize my nervous system again. So it is basically "jump and see what happens". 

Also I am thinking (not planning!) when it finally comes to tapering - how on earth is is possible to take that crumbling tiny olansapine half-of-a-pill and make 10%  reductions. Any liquid forms of such drugs are not available in Estonia.

[Skyler]

Thank you for your advice. 

 

You are taking 1.875mg, correct? You might increase it to 2mg and see what happens.

 

You will need to give it at least a week to see how it affects you.

 

What about if it influences me in a bad way - then there is no going back again for it would destabilize my nervous system again. So it is basically "jump and see what happens". 

Also I am thinking (not planning!) when it finally comes to tapering - how on earth is is possible to take that crumbling tiny olansapine half-of-a-pill and make 10%  reductions. Any liquid forms of such drugs are not available in Estonia.

 

There are no guarantees, but Alto has taken this possibility into account with her advice, which is why she was very conservative in the amount she suggested.  You can't keep tweaking up and down to see what helps.. doing so will only keep your CNS in an uproar.

 

The forum has been up and running for a number of years now, and Alto has developed an impressive compendium of information.  Please take some time and check it out...  Go here to read the answer to your question above.

[brassmonkey]

Hi erer-- take a deep breath and drop everything as you exhale. The best thing you can do right now is to not panic and not be afraid.  Just concentrate on getting through each minute as it passes, then each five minutes and each hour.  Other than getting through, don't do anything about changing your dose or taking other drugs it can just make things worse.  This is a bad wave and it will pass.

 

When you get a chance in a few days when things have calmed down, give your sister a big hug and thank her for being there.

 

(((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))

[erer]

 

Thank you for your advice. 

 

You are taking 1.875mg, correct? You might increase it to 2mg and see what happens.

 

You will need to give it at least a week to see how it affects you.

 

What about if it influences me in a bad way - then there is no going back again for it would destabilize my nervous system again. So it is basically "jump and see what happens". 

Also I am thinking (not planning!) when it finally comes to tapering - how on earth is is possible to take that crumbling tiny olansapine half-of-a-pill and make 10%  reductions. Any liquid forms of such drugs are not available in Estonia.

 

There are no guarantees, but Alto has taken this possibility into account with her advice, which is why she was very conservative in the amount she suggested.  You can't keep tweaking up and down to see what helps.. doing so will only keep your CNS in an uproar.

 

The forum has been up and running for a number of years now, and Alto has developed an impressive compendium of information.  Please take some time and check it out...  Go here to read the answer to your question above.

 

I read through as much as I could right now (I am in so much distress that I cannot sit still for long). I see there is advice about making a liquid and it all requires a lot of learning and thinking through and getting equipment. I take a 5 mg orodisperable olanzapine pill which I first cut in half and then into quarters and then take one quarter and try to half another one to get 3/4 of half a pill.

 

That equals about 1,875 mg. Half a pill would be 2,5 mg. I don't think I would be able to measure 2 mg of that pill as Alto has suggested. These pills are tiny and crumble very easily and it is hard maintaining even a regular amount of medicine like this. So right now I don't have means to accurately measure 2 mg of the drug.

[Fresh]

Hi erer ,  it's not that complicated , and when you're stable you'll understand how to make a liquid easily.  

If you dissolve a 5mg pill/wafer in say 20mg of water , each 4mg of the liquid that you draw up into a syringe contains 1mg of olanzapine.  

That's how you can be accurate with small doses.

 

You don't need to worry about that now though.   As BM said , just get through each minute , each hour.

 

xxx

[Skyler]

Err Fresh, I think the point is that in order to follow Alto's suggestions for increasing the dose, erer needs to go to a liquid taper.  So it would be a good thing to look into as soon as she is able.  The alternative would be to updose higher, or for her to stay where she is now.. 

[Altostrata]

All you need now is a 5mL oral syringe, water, and a small container with a cap.

 

Sorry we can't make it easier for you. This is only an Internet forum, all we can do is write you notes.

[LoveandLight]

Get someone to explain to you or work it out for you in person erer or make the dose up for you if need be..

 

I was the same at one point..had to get someone else to ingest the info and help with the dose.

 

Don't worry everything will be ok.,

 

Love and hugs xx

[Fresh]

Thanks Skyler ,  I missed that bit.  I thought erer was worrying now about what to do later.

 

Erer , message me if you think it will help , we can nut it out. 

[bluebalu86]

Honey, I'll help you, this  is really easy actually.

 

"All you need now is a 5mL oral syringe, water, and a small container with a cap." - Can you ask your partner to go to the pharmacy to buy you a syringe and a small plastic or glass container?

 

This is what you have to do:

 

Take your 5mg olanzapine pill and put it on the table. Take a small plastic or glass container and put it on the table. Fill your 5 ml syringe with 5 ml pure cold water from the sink. Pour the water into the container. Now put the pill in the water. Wait for it to dissolve evenly in the water, it might take 10 minutes or more. You can also use a toothpick to stir it. It's important that the solution is even, the pill has to dissolve evenly in the water for this to be accurate. Now you have 5 mg olanzapine in 5 ml water. This means that each 1 ml of water contains 1 mg olanzapine. You need to updose to 2 mg, as Alto suggested. This means that you need 2 ml of the solution. Take the same syringe again, and draw 2 ml from the solution. There you go. You have now 2 mg olanzapine. Pour it in your mouth. You are done!

 

You have 3 ml / 3 mg olanzapine left in the solution. I would throw the rest of the solution in the sink, but you can also put a cap on the container and store it in the fridge to use tomorrow (not sure for how long though). 

[erer]

I tried googling for images etc but I still don't understand what the difference is between an oral syringe and a regular one. Can anyone explain? 

 

And why does the container need a cap?

[erer]

Also - some people are suggesting a 5 mg ml (sorry, typo) syringe, others larger ones - what should I choose?

 

I am most concerned about the fact that I take the pills that are supposed to melt and be absorbed in the mouth. If I made the liquid I would swallow the liquid.

WOuld that not mess with the metabolism of the drug?

[Fresh]

I'm guessing here , but I think an oral syringe is a plastic one for oral (mouth) administration of meds.  The other sort of syringes have needles in them for diabetics etc. who need to inject themselves.

 

The container needs a cap so you can give it a good shake and disperse the meds. evenly in the water before drawing it into the syringe.

It doesn't matter whether it's a 5ml or 10ml syringe , so long as you work out the proportions accurately , and do it the same way each time.

E.g , if you put 5mg tab. in 5mls of water , each 1ml equals 1mg of olanzapine.  So 2mls is 2mg.  A 5 ml syringe would be fine.

However , if you put 5mg tab. in 20mg of water , each 4mls of water equals 1mg of olanzapine.  So to take 2mg you'd need 8mls

of solution , and would need a 10ml syringe.   

 

Those wafers are the dickiest little things - you couldn't swallow one if you tried cause they dissolve too quickly.   I'm sure that swallowing the liquid is the same or the site wouldn't suggest it.  

Take a look at Chicken's Liquid Taper video here http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/8489-chickens-liquid-taper-video/

[bubble]

Mg means miligrams for measuring weight. With syringes we are talking about mililiters for neasuring volume of liquids.

 

Whether a syring will be 10 ml, 5 ml or 2 ml depends on what dose you have to measure. Since you will have to measure 2 mls to get 2 mgs, this will be easier with a 5 mg syringe. But you can do it with either. I personally have all 3 depending on how much I have to measure.

 

Never thought about why the container has a cap to prevent things from falling in or the suspension evaporating if kept longer?

 

As with most things here there are no studies which would prove that taking drugs suspended in water doesn't affect the way they are metabolised but many of us a living proof of that. I've been taking one of my drugs in that way for almost two years now and find this to be a very safe and effecient method.

[Skyler]

I am reposting a PM message sent to me by erer because it is in keeping with the ongoing discussion.

....................................

Hi,

I tried looking into the subject from the links but because I am in so much distress I cannot concentrate enough to get all the information in.

 

I was wondering if you could answer just a few of my questions. I realise they are probably explained already in these texts, but I cannot take it all in right now.

1. Why is it necessary to have a container that has a cap?

2. If I have such small amounts - 2mg of drug that I need to administer and 5 ml of water: can it really be precise or can I screw it up easily (for example do I fill the syringe tip or leave it free of fluid?)?

3. What is an oral syringe? How is it different from a regular one?

4. Is there a danger crossing over from taking the tablet to taking the drug in a liquid form - would it influence the metabolism of the drug?

5. I am taking the pills that are supposed to melt and absorbed in the mouth. WOuldn't it mess with the metabolism of the drug if I swallow the water?

 

All the best,

Erer

.................................

 

First of all..you are overthinking this and making it wayyyyy more complicated that it actually is.  Keep that in mind, okay?

 

1) You will be using a pill bottle... the same as those the pharmacy dispenses with any prescription.  It would help to shake it with the cap ... it's the simplest way to mix up the solution after the pill dissolves.  Think salad dressing... you put a cap on it to shake it up.

 

2) I'm going off a drug this coming Saturday (yep, I'm counting the days!).. I've been tapering for over two years using a liquid suspension.  I promise.. this gets very easy.  I now laugh at my original attempts... I was soooo intimidated by the process.. but it's not scary. 

 

3) An oral syringe is just a syringe that does not have a needle.  No other difference.  You can even order them on Amazon.

 

4) Not that I know of...there  are some that require mixing a little differently.. but Zyprexa is not among those.  So not a concern.

 

5)  Again, not that I'm aware of.. but you could double check with Alto if you want.. she has helped thousands of people taper, many of whom make up their own liquid suspensions.

 

I'm reposting this message in your blog thread as others are also giving you advice on the same topic.

 

Skyler

 

 

 

[erer]

Thank you so much for your answers. I will be getting a 20 ml and a 10 ml syringe later today and if my calculations are right, to take my current dose (1,875 mg from a 5 mg pill) I take 7,5 ml of that mixture.  Is that right?

 

Thank you all for that suggestion.

 

I will definitely do this to ensure that my medicine portions are very stable every day (as opposed to cutting the pill which is not precise enough).

But as Alto also said I "might" try updosing, but it might not help (and might uproar things even?), I think I would just try to keep things very stable from now on and not even updose as it would be another change to my system. I will just try to keep everything as stable for I am really in a big crisis and just giving my system all the stability that is possible seems like the smartest choice.

 

(PS! I hope this is not considered not taking the advice again. I did interpret the suggestion as it was up to my choice and Alto had no clear preference).

[Skyler]

Thank you so much for your answers. I will be getting a 20 ml and a 10 ml syringe later today and if my calculations are right, to take my current dose (1,875 mg from a 5 mg pill) I take 7,5 ml of that mixture.  Is that right?

 

Thank you all for that suggestion.

 

I will definitely do this to ensure that my medicine portions are very stable every day (as opposed to cutting the pill which is not precise enough).

But as Alto also said I "might" try updosing, but it might not help (and might uproar things even?), I think I would just try to keep things very stable from now on and not even updose as it would be another change to my system. I will just try to keep everything as stable for I am really in a big crisis and just giving my system all the stability that is possible seems like the smartest choice.

 

(PS! I hope this is not considered not taking the advice again. I did interpret the suggestion as it was up to my choice and Alto had no clear preference).

 

Ya did good, all we wanted was for you to be engaged in the process, and you have come thru for yourself with the proverbial shining colors!...  and you are correct, the way you were cutting pills is not precise enough.

[erer]

I tried making the liquid from my pill, but there seems to be some sediment in the bottom. What should I do - this means the components are not evenly distributed?!

[bubble]

Don't worry about that: that is normal because pills don't dissolve in water so there will always be particles which you describe as sediment.

 

That's why we advise stirring the suspension well and drawing from the middle.

 

Despite that it is still very accurate way: I take a total of 0.78 mg at the moment divided in 5 doses and it works perfectly.

[bluebalu86]

How are you doing erer?

[erer]

How are you doing erer?

Not well, not well at all.

[Petunia]

I'm sorry to hear you are not doing well erer. Are still taking the same dose or did you updose a little?

[erer]

I'm sorry to hear you are not doing well erer. Are still taking the same dose or did you updose a little?

 

I updosed to 2,1 mg on August 14th (from 1,87 mg) and a day before that I started making my pill into a liquid and administering it through a syringe.

 

I have not nor am I planning to make any changes to my medications since. I just wish I could get stable somehow. 

---

 

What I've been through the past 4 weeks has been indescribable. Such days of sheer fear, horror and physical suffering. I tried to keep going out to places (with my partner) regardless of the daily panic attacks I got there but for now I have developed intense fears - I cannot leave the house to go anywhere for I am afraid of losing control. Even when I am with my partner (for example at the store) I shake with fear.

 

I have had intense akathisia during this period - so relentless I was very close to attempting to kill myself again. Fortunately I had people around me who made sure I couldn't. But I am feeling so fragile - any symptom could just pop up in a second.

 

But I have developed, in addition to the relentless akathisia which really is unbearable when it hits, these weird feelings of deep fear. I keep thinking of scenarios of bad things that can happen to me or my loved ones (accidents, tragedies etc) and I cannot shake the feeling that all of these are so real and can actually happen at any time. So I am afraid of my own thoughts.

 

I also get spontaneous anxiety/fear that just hits me from out of nowhere and will not let up even in the evening.

 

And the confusion and nausea and inability to eat... I get so nauseous that for a while I  was not able to eat a bite before the evening came for then the nausea got a little better. Derealisation comes and goes, but even though it is a nasty thing - it is not even one of the worst symtoms any more for me.

 

It is all just so indescribably bad that I cannot put it in words. 

 

Why won't I stabilise? Is this fear thing typical when dealing with Olanzapine/Zyprexa?  Or am I just really losing it?

 

I did have about 5 days which can be considered as days with windows in them. That was 2 weeks ago. But after that it has just got worse and worse and worse.

[bluebalu86]

Erer, I attempted to CT my antipsychotic in April and I'm still very fragile and can't stabilize. Unfortunately, for some of us stabilization comes very slowly. I was able to go on a vacation which I enjoyed, but I guess I overdid it and now I'm feeling bad again. Recovery happens very, very slowly and it's bumpy. Try to hold on and self-soothe as best as you can. That's your only job right now. I relate to a lot of what you are experiencing, I also get bad thoughts that feel so real, and anxiety and fear out of nowhere. It's normal around here. 

[erer]

 I also get bad thoughts that feel so real, and anxiety and fear out of nowhere. It's normal around here. 

I just cannot accept something so awful as being "normal". I wish there was some way to just stop this suffering

[bluebalu86]

Don't fight against it sweetie. Fighting drains your energy and makes you weaker and the fears - stronger. Let go. Accept it. That's the way things are right now and there's nothing you can do to change that. This is beyond your control. When you accept the symptoms you suffer less. Try it.

[erer]

Don't fight against it sweetie. Fighting drains your energy and makes you weaker and the fears - stronger. Let go. Accept it. That's the way things are right now and there's nothing you can do to change that. This is beyond your control. When you accept the symptoms you suffer less. Try it.

Is it a symptom. Is it really? I need someone to constantly reassure me that it is and it is not just me going crazy. Cause every time I see my doctor I get doubts. She manages to make me feel like it is all coming from somewhere inside me. Like I'm inventing all this through being anxious. Tell me I am not making this up!

[LoveandLight]

No, it's withdrawal fear..I have doubts too but no, everyone on this board seems to have stuff like this..even people who went on for physical illnesses..every doc and psychiatrist can justify everything as depression and anxiety..it's just crap..

[bluebalu86]

You're not crazy sweetie, it's the withdrawal. All of this is chemical fear and anxiety. It's not you, it's the WD. I'm 100% sure and certain. We all have these symptoms, like LL said - even people who were put on meds for physical illnesses have this. It's most definitely not you. You will not go crazy, but you will feel like crap until you heal. 

[brassmonkey]

These are all "typical/normal" WD symptoms. Very unpleasant to experience, they are not harmful and almost everyone gets them.  As Bluebalu is suggestion it is best not to fight then, it only makes them worse.  All you can do is hunker down and survive minute by minute until they subside. No one in WD wants to admit that they are incapacitated, but the truth is your brain THINKS it is fighting for its life and all we can do is sit back and let it sort itself out. Every time you make a dose change, either down or up, it resets the clock on stabilizing.  It has only been 4 weeks since your last change, stability takes time to happen.

 

It is good that you have a very good support system at home so they can keep an eye on when you feel inclined toward suicide.  Face to face help/support is the best thing, and this forum is not equipped to handle such situations and we do not condone talk about actually planning the act.

[erer]

These are all "typical/normal" WD symptoms. Very unpleasant to experience, they are not harmful and almost everyone gets them.  

Thank you so much for reassuring me. But really (I don't mean to be impolite) - are the sort of compulsive thoughts that something might happen really-really a common WD symptom? It is very important for me to know because I am very worried that that sort of compulsion when it comes, it comes to stay. And thinking like that only makes it worse to handle.

 

As to the references to suicide - I have no intention to discuss any plans or anything related to that in this forum. It has never been my intention.