leahy Tapering off Remeron, headaches, nausea, sleep

[leahy]

Thanks for your advice and suggestions Ali. When I switched to soltabs I thought I could start at 20 mg or so since I was at 18.75. The ugly truth is I wasn't feeling well at 18.75 anyway. It's so hard to know when the pill changes. I get sick with two 15 mg pills which are different than my 30 mg pill. The differences confuses things for me.

 

I took 30 mg soltab last night and feel a tiny bit better today. Insomnia has been a problem lately. I do not understand where I am going wrong.

 

Any help is very much appreciated.

 

L

[AliG]

 Have you read the " tapering " section.   Insomnia is usually a withdrawal  symptom , of too fast tapering, or in my case C/T.   Keep reading  on the site, so you know what's going on.  You have to be vigilant !  and careful and slow.  Try not to make mistakes.

 

Hugs,

 

Ali.

[leahy]

Using Soltabs was a disaster for me. I felt sick and sicker each day. My face became swollen and red. The redness in my face hurt like a sunburn when I put my regular face cream on. I don't know why. Could it be the aspartame...

 

I din't reduce the dosage because I know different pills are different. After 5 days of Soltabs at 30 mg, I went back to the regular 30 mg tabs, dissolved that in my new graduated cylinder and have been taking 25 mg. for the past 5 days. I feel much better now.

 

I'll stick with this method.

[Hibari]

Leahy, I'm glad you discovered that your regular tablets are best for dissolving.   I am sorry you had to experience that reaction to the the Sol Tabs, that sounds horrible. 

 

I know when I was given Sol Tabs of Clonazepam, they never worked for me.  They didn't feel as effective as the pills and I asked the psychiatrist who prescribed them to switch it back.  He did say that some people did not respond well to Sol Tabs and I turned out to be one of them.  I also get wired if I take and any form of sleeping pill-same with Benadryl.

 

I'm glad your feel better today. 

 

H

[leahy]

I tried to research people who used Sol Tabs here. There were a handful but unfortunately they stopped posting before they completed their taper so I don't know how that worked out in the end.

 

It's weird and unexpected that 30 mg is not equivalent to 30 mg of the "same" medication depending on manufacturer. I feel very accomplished with my 50 ml graduated cylinder. I fill to 30 ml, let the tablet dissolve, stir like crazy, remove 5 ml with a straw.

 

I put the straw in the cylinder, put my finger on to top of the straw and lift up. Each lift removes about 2 to 1 ml. It depends on the height of the solution in the cylinder. But it works!

[leahy]

I googled tendonitis and remeron to see if other report a connection. I came upon Factmed.com claiming to be and FDA Research Report. I could not believe the list of most common side effects of remeron reported there. Most of which I have had. 

 

http://factmed.com/study-REMERON-causing-TENDONITIS.php

 

How can they prescribe anything with a list like that? I know that is a repetitive question here but I'm sorry. I was still shocked by this collection of data. They even admit "these numbers may therefore underrepresent the complication rate of the medication. "

 

"About this FactMed analysis covering adverse side effect reports of REMERON patients who developed TENDONITIS.

FactMed provides MD-approved analysis to help both patients, researchers, and physicians accurately assess the risk profile for more than 20,000 different pharmaceutical products. The below report offers compiled information from Food & Drug Administration and FactMed user submissions. Between January 2004 and October 2012, 43 individuals taking REMERON reported TENDONITIS to the FDA. A total of 8281 REMERON drug adverse event reaction reports were made with the FDA during this time period. Often the FDA only receives reports of the most critical and severe cases; these numbers may therefore underrepresent the complication rate of the medication. "

[leahy]

Lately, I have been able to fall asleep and stay asleep which is a miracle. I don't know why this is happening, but I'm relieved by it.  I do take Calms Forte when I feel I'm ready to "calm down" for the night. I'm not sure that's what's helping me stay asleep. I'm afraid to stop taking it, though, just in case it is.

 

I take 1 mg xanax at night before bed.  There has been a change. It's weird. The idea of taking xanax during the day never even occurs to me.

 

Hanging in at my homemade liquid Remeron 25 mg. I do look forward to making the liquid each night. I feel like I have more control this way.

 

I feel like I'm beating the ******* medication this way.

 

Oh, and I joined Weight Watchers. I lost 2.4 lbs last week. Gotta keep trying - something. I was so tired today I thought maybe I was getting sick. Maybe the lower dose of remeron is making me fatigued as others have described. This is a change for me. I used to feel nervous, jumpy and wired.

 

All good news for me. No headache, no nausea. Sqeaking down to 24.5 mg now.

[leahy]

I saw my pdoc yesterday. I was quite pleased with myself with making liquid and micro tapering result. I have managed to squeak down to 23mg even tough I was a bit highly apprehensive about making this drop. I did first drop to 24 mg so I have been being VERY careful. It's the first time I have had a relatively normal 2 and a half weeks. I do not want to mess that up again...

 

I can't believe my pdoc said to me. "You are taking too long to taper!"  I swear she does not have any clue at all how sick her tapering methods have rendered me. So upsetting, really. Why bother to explain this to deaf ears. But it really makes me angry - very pissed off. 

 

Flabergasted!  

 

It's a good thing I like her. I wanted to verbally counter attack but the bottom line is - get what you need form these people and get out. 

 

To quote Hibari "Educating people is exhausting."

 

Why bother?

 

L 

[Hibari]

They don't get it Leahy, they just don't.   Either they are to invested in their belief system or they are too scared to change. 

 

I had a therapist I was working with when I fell into my depression and she had a really hard time supporting me.   She was the one who suggested I go to a psychiatrist and I understood why she did-I was so down and out.  But when I was struggling with my reaction to the different medications I was prescribed and my fear of them, she shared with my that she was on Cymbalta and said, "I would be too scared to stop taking it".  This was before I knew anything about medication wd syndrome.   About a month later I stopped seeing her because on some level I knew there was an investment in the medication solution and she also was sharing way too much personal information.

 

I am so happy you are finding the squeak down method working with the liquid Remeron.  I too have found it to be a very good method.  I will say though that it's important to hold for about 2 weeks after the last squeak down because Remeron has a delayed reaction in wd- usually hits me 2 weeks after my last cut. 

 

You can do it Leahy!

[leahy]

I feel like crying. I feel so sad. Why? I don't know. I can where these feelings are scary. We tend to think - oh my god, am I really depressed? Neuro emotions. Yes, I've read about these crying sad spells. I'll get past it. I put music on - and I am realizing it is sad music. I'd better change that station.

 

Good advice about waiting two weeks, Hibari. You are right on target. I have a headache today and feel low. These symptoms tell me a little less squeaking down is in order. It was probably to soon for me to squeak down to 23mg.

 

I feel better having talked about this. And the music changed.

 

Thank you for the support.

[Hibari]

Crying is a big part of wd and certainly with Remeron in particular.   I remember Free Spirit saying that Remeron should be called the crying drug.  I have sobbed uncontrollably when I am at the peak of wd, usually off and on for 2 or 3 days.  Not saying that will happen to you but just that the crying is part of it. 

 

It will pass, just hang in there.  I find that once I go through the crying phase, I start to stabilize.   You don't necessarily have to up dose again Leahy, if you can ride through and hold the 23mgs till you are stable. 

 

Squeak by squeak. 

 

H

[leahy]

The headache is back. Nauseous. My sleep is broken. Can't get to sleep. Can't stay asleep. Such a short window of feeling normal. I'm not sure why. I up dosed to 24 mg last night. Hopefully that will help.

 

I haven't been walking because of the tendonitis. Little tears the doctor said. I'm going to try walking today to see if that helps.  Not sleeping wreaks havoc on me.

[Hibari]

You are taking care of yourself Leahy.  You need your sleep to heal.

 

H

[swissguy]

Hello Leahy,

 

I hope you are coping well these days. If you allow me, I would like to withdraw from remeron with you. I have been on 45mg since November 2014 and decided to start tapering on October 20, 2015 (I am French speaking from Switzerland so you will find here and there grammatical errors...).

 

I decided to start tapering because I began to feel my depression and anxiety coming back at 45mg and the options were to either increase the dosage, supplement of switch to another AD. I wanted to cope by myself and decided to look at alternatives and turned to sport and magnesium for now.

 

So I tappered first by 10% on October 20 and the pattern is as follows for me, immediately I taper, my sleep gets bad for about 4 nights and start stabilsing after that. I feel more anxious and have different kind of pains (ears, headaches jaws, throat, teeth), at around day 7 depression sets-in for a few days and at about 2 weeks, I am somehow stabilised, depression and pains ease-up and sleep is ok. So I tappered another 10%. The pattern was approx. the same for the 2nd tapper but I decided to hold a bit longer this time (don' want to rush things). I am right now at 36mg.

 

I still have ear issues (pain and tinnitus in left ear and pressure in both) and few times I thought I had caught the flu... but I am overall not feeling too bad and I have better good days than bad days. I will wait a bit before dropping to 32mg.

 

I have started running as soon as I started tapering and after 4 weeks or running everyday, my mood has stabilised a lot, it is amazing. I take 300mg magnesium just before running every late afternoon or evening and it put me in perfect mood for a nice relaxing evening. I run 30 minutes at moderate speed.

 

Thanks for reading me and thanks to everybody for sharing their experiences.

 

Best of luck to all, with time we will win this battle.

 

Mid-February 2014, started 20mg Paxil due to panic attacks while on business trip in Africa, very bad decision...

End-February 2014, 50mg Trazadone and 1mg xanax added because of anxiety and insomia

Feb till Jun 2014, tried to cope with side effects but gave-in and stopped all drugs in July 2014, tried to cope for 2 months but impossible...

September 2014 statered 150mg Wellbutrin, horrible anxiety sent me straight to psych clinic where they stopped the Wellbutrin

October 2014 started Lyrica, horrible depression, still in clinic, they stopped it after a week

November 2014 started remeron, 15mg, then 30mg and finally 45mg + 2mg lorazepam

February 2015 quit lorazepam after tapering fast to 0.75mg

October 20, 2015 started Remeron taper, 40mg

November 5, 2015 36mg, holding

[leahy]

Hi Swiss Guy,

 

It sounds like you are doing everything right. Running sounds like it's good eercise for you as you are used to it. I think that increasing oxygen in the body/brain is especially help in wd. Also being careful about doing a slow taper is key. I have been guilty of rushing things in the past and believe me I suffered greatly because of rushing things.

 

I just noticed your post and it's late at night for me. I am tired now but I will write more next time. Thanks for posting on my thread. Good healing to you.

 

Leahy

[leahy]

Lately it seems I have one good day and the next day is a bad one. Bad sleep, headache and nausea. The next night I sleep well resulting in a near normal day. I have been holding at 24 for five weeks and squeaked down to 23 four days ago. The bad days are so difficult and so dramatically different. I wish I could get a handle on this.

[Hibari]

You can do this Leahy.  You are probably feeling the effect of the squeak down. I think, and it's only a theory, that as the medication leaves our system our nervous systems are even more sensitive to change.   The great thing about the liquid method is you can always go up a hair, not even to 24 but somewhere in between if you need to.

 

You reminded me of the windows of waves of recovery.   Many people have shared their ups and downs, sometimes with alternating days and sometimes alternating hours.   It is one of the most frustrating parts to this journey, we think we have the pattern down and boom, it changes.   Your brain is trying to heal and will heal over time.   This is not permanent. 

 

Hang in there.  Would drinking some gingerale help?  I also have been drinking green tea to clear my head and I'm wondering if that might help you to.  It just seems to clear the fog and sometimes my headaches. 

 

You are not alone. 

 

H

[leahy]

I feel so physically ill that all I can do is watch the clock hoping for the day to end and read, read, read in hopes of finding solutions. I just read through Hopefull's thread. It worries me that things get worse at the lower doses.

 

The usual headache/nausea due to insomnia. I did make a cut to 20 mg. trying to be able to tell pdoc I'm down. She wants me at 15 mg. I thought I could lie if I were at 20 and say 19 to the pdoc. I know this is ridiculous.

 

I wish I knew the key to good sleeping. It's so helpful to me but I keep waking up anxious every 3-4 hrs. I try different things - take magnesium. I don't think Calms Forte helps at all. I have a hangover. That's what I have the same old hangover I always get. Gross.

 

Thank you, Alto, for all the hard work you do for SA. I think your achievements, knowledge and accomplishments are monumental. This is precious to me and I am sure it is to everyone else you interact with here and everywhere. I would like to paste Alto's linear upward graph here as a reminder to me that things will get better...
 

Alto wrote: "I've experienced the waves, or lurches. I've noticed the converse -- I'll have a window when I feel better, then a trough, which feels just as bad as ever, except a little different. Over time, the windows have gotten more frequent and longer, and the troughs not as deep and shorter. So, on the average, I've gotten slowly better. Kind of like 1 step forward and 5 steps back, then 2 steps forward and 5 steps back, then 3 steps forward and 4 steps back, then 2 steps forward and 3 steps back, then 3 steps forward and 3 steps back....uh, where was I? I should talk, because after 3 years of lurching forward, I took a giant lurch down -- too much stress at a critical time. But since then, it's been the same slow, lurching slog forward."

[Hibari]

Leahy,  I know it's rough but you will get through.  Don't let your doctor bully you into moving faster than you are.  

 

You just made a big jump from 23 to 20 and you are feeling it.   I know you had squeaked down to 23 mgs on December 6th so the wd symptoms from that squeak may be hitting big time as well. 

 

You are moving forward.   Remeron is a powerful, powerful medication and most doctors have no idea about the impact of wd.  

 

Also, when I am in a peak wd reaction, my brain is the least reliable source for encouragement I have.  Great for research, but lousy for comfort. 

 

Hang in there, you can do it.  Trust your body and if you need to up dose a tiny bit, that's okay, it's not a step backward, it's a step to help your brain heal.

 

I am in your corner! 

[bubble]

Hello leahy. I was reading through your thread today and immediately got concerned about Xanax.

 

I saw that you wrote in SG's thread that it was probably me who warned you about it. (Sorry I can't remember) but regardless of who did it it's awfully important. Like you I also in a way saw xanax as a background noise and focused on AD blaming it for my symptoms. But Xanax like any other benzo addiction is far far from casual. I see that you started with multiple dosing and sticking with the same dose. Please keep it that way.

 

Remeron is also nasty. What I see from other members who taper it is that they can be fine for many months with all sorts of cuts only to be hit with horrible delayed withdrawal. Do a periodical long hold. I will hold at my current dose of xanax which i have been tapering for 2 years for at least 2 months.

[leahy]

So. Bubble, does this mean under no circumstances do I take a relief dose when I cannot sleep? Should I just find something else to do instead of all the nagging, fearful thoughts I find myself awakening to? I really do mean this as a pure question. I am so afraid of not sleeping. It makes me feel so sick the next day. (I was just rereading your thread. I'm sure it was you who advised me. Thank you. I do think about it.)

 

Since I continue to feel very ill 90% of the time, I have to really wonder what the culprit is. Perhaps I am in xanax wd denial. I was spreading out the doses for a while but then found myself not anxious at all during the day so I've been saving up the dose for night time sleeping before bed kind of thing. I thought this could help me get the remeron dose down but I seem to be at a standstill with everything. A downward spiral. Not feeling that upward linear graph much at all these days.

 

It's so hard to know the difference. Which to taper? I wonder if it's possible for me to taper xanax and then remeron? I do feel anxious now...

[bubble]

I didn't want to upset you. I'm afraid xanax doesn't work like that especially not after so many years...

 

I have a separate thread on the benzo subforum here to deal with my xanax situation. I would advise you to start a thread there so that we could look at it in more detail. You will also find more benzo specific information there. I see that you are already familiar with interdose withdrawal...

 

I would stop tapering Remeron until things settle down.

[leahy]

I'm rereading "life-without-xanax-after-14-years/" Is this your separate thread on your benzo taper?

 

"I didn't want to upset you. I'm afraid xanax doesn't work like that especially not after so many years..."

 

Xanax doesn't work like what? I'm not sure which "that" you are referring to.. 

 

I will start a new thread and I will hold on my remeron taper.

[bubble]

Yes, that's my thread.

 

What I meant by "that" is that after quite short time benzos lose their anxiety reducing effect and in order to get this effect you have to increase the dose. Taking benzos long term on as needed base and going up and down with doses (like I did is playing ping pong with your brain. It's unlikely that the same dose of xanax taken for years would have any effect. The only effect it has is preventing anxiety and other symptoms arising from not taking it...

 

I also had loads of misconceptions about xanax... i think most of my thread is about struggling to understand what dose to stabilise on, how to introduce multiple dosing, prepare the liquid... I've been sticking with this kind of dosing for 2 years religiously and managed to come down from 2 mg to 0.66. I plan to stop here now and start tapering the AD.

 

The reason I started tapering benzo first is because I typically didn't take that high dose. That was just 'emergency' dose in my misguided approach to xanax before I came here...

 

I realise this might be overwhelming now but once you sort this out you will be on the right path and feel a lot better.

[leahy]

Thank you so much for explaining that to me, Bubble. I'm reading your thread again with a keener eye. I will process this information and read other threads.

 

I did make a liquid today because I have been feeling so ill I needed to try something different! (I was remembering your advice)

 

What kind of container do you store the liquid in? I mixed it with water in a graduated cylinder and took .2 every 3 hours. I left it on the counter all day since it's not covered. Do you keep your evening dose in a syringe next to your bed?

 

I will start my thread tomorrow. xxoo

[bubble]

t will be good to start your thread in the benzo subsection so that we can deal with those questions there. First you will have to stabilise on a dose. Changing doses as it seesm you have been doing is  very, very destabilising. (I also behaved like that with Xanax before I came here. Taking it as a "rescuer".). What it actually dose is to cause rebound anxiety and the anxiety and all other sympotms that lead you to take it are actually xanax withdrawal.

 

It seems you have been taking xanax for over 17 years... That's a long time. Looking at your signature it's a bit difficult to understand how much xanax you were/are taking. If I understand it correctly it seems that you recently went from 2 mg of xanax to 1 mg (or even 0.6 mg?) No wonder you feel unwell!

 

But we will look into that more in the benzo subforum.

 

Regarding the container I use a glass container with a lid which is actually from baby food. Maybe it's a bit too big but I had nothing better at hand when I first started making the liquid and later on I got used to it. I keep it in the fridge and I use the batch over 3 days. A few months ago I stopped taking a middle of the night dose after taking it for over a year because I often couldn't fall back asleep for quite some time. So instead I take my evening and night dose as one before I go to bed. i didn't notice increase in morning anxiety as a result of that...

[leahy]

Thank you Bubble. I think combining the evening dose and nighttime dose will be beneficial to me. I did that last night and got goo sleep and I divided the total amount throughout the 24 hrs. I feel much better today. I did start a thread and will add to it.

 

Yesterday afternoon I hiked out in a beautiful park with my son and girlfriend. I walk on a regular basis so I was surprised at the end of my walk that my calves were burning. This increased in intensity to a huge rash from the tops of my feet to my knees. I checked in with google on this and came up with hardening of the arteries or "golpher's rash" caused by heat and lots of walking. It wasn't at all hot out though. I hope it's not the first one. I'll settle for golpher's rash but I suspect it's remeron related.

 

I'm going to check in symptoms for this. I just read Freshsalmon's thread where some nuero sensitivities were mentioned. Maybe it's a histamine thing? Just weird. So I just wanted to record it here.

 

I feel somehow my liquid preparations of remeron are not working for me. I ordered a scale to weigh my doses of mirtazapine to get insure proper dosing. Last night I reverted back to cutting the 30 mg pill to 22.5 and slept normally. Thank god.

 

L

[Hibari]

Leahy,  so glad you are feeling better today.

[Hopefull]

Hi Leahy,

Sorry to hear that Soltab mitrazapine has not worked out for you.

I have been using this method for over a year now.

You are obviously sensitive to something in Soltab.

I am currently on 5mg.

I just thought I would let you know, since you have mentioned that hand full of people use Soltab method and than dissappear.

I am still here.

I hope you get a break soon.

Take care,Hopefull.

[leahy]

Thanks for letting me know about your success with Soltabs. SquirrlyGirl would like to know about that. I don't know what is making me sick. Honestly, nothing I do seems to be working. I keep trying and trying but it's very trying. Headache today. Was unable to sleep until 4 am to 7 am. Sucks.

 

I am looking into dehydration. Something Dalsaan pointed out a while back - that my symptoms sound like dehydration. I drink tons of water so I thought i was doing well with hydrating myself. 

 

After reading a book about migraines I am learning about the potassium/sodium/cacium component of hydrating. Maybe I've been coming up short with that. Something about electrolytes. Again I don't know.

 

I feel like i've been struggling for a very long time.

[Hopefull]

Hi Leahy,

Try coconut water for hydration.

Coconut water contains electrolytes, including potassium.

Just keep plodding along.

Maybe Accupuncture can help with headaches/Rooibos tea.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Leahy,

 

I was going to say the same thing about the electolytes.  Apparently it is possible to drink too much water   I think it is because it dilutes and then expels the electrolytes.

 

CC

[leahy]

Hi CC and Hopefull,

 

That's so funny that you recommend coconut water. I went to the store today and bought several large containers of coconut water. I hope this helps. Thanks so much!

 

I figured it can't hurt. I have himilayan salt, coconut water, carrot/orange juice and a sports drink thing. Next is calcium. I'll have some cheese.

 

It is always like this thoguh: bad sleep = very bad headache

 

L

[leahy]

I don't think my liquid solutions are doing the trick for me so I ordered a scale to weigh mirtazapine and bought gel caps to make my own pills. I'm doing pretty well with my new weighing skills. I refer back to SquirrleyGirl's excellent instructions regularly.

 

I measured my first 225 which is 22.5 mg. I LOVE THIS TECHNIQUE! Thank you so much! What a great Christmas gift for me! I also weighed some 200 which would be 10% reduction when I stabilize.

 

I feel so much better now. I don't know why that is but whatever it takes...

 

I showed my son (and girlfriend) my new technique. I  went through the process with him, calibrating, weighing and we made a capsule together with the gel capsules. This is my way of showing him how serious I am about tapering, how hard it is, and the underlying message about how sorry I am that he had to suffer through how these drugs changed my personality in the past.

 

He paused and thought quietly for a long moment while he was staring at the new pill we made together. In awe, he said "This is brilliant. Mom. Really. Brilliant."

 

I wanted to say well SquirrleyGirl taught me everything I know but I didn't...

 

I just left it as a "precious moment" a son so proud of his mom.

 

And we were happy.

 

Thank you, SG. And thank you, SA.

 

Leahy

[Hopefull]

Hi Leahy,

That is funny!

What a beautiful moment you had with your son.

You are on your way to a better health.

[leahy]

I need to record this. Good God! My pdoc suggested ADDING prozac last Thursday.

 

"It's gentle" she said, "we give it to 7 year olds. Most people don't have withdrawal. You're taking too long. Two weeks and that's it. Of course we don't really know. We can't measure these things. You're making yourself crazy with all this weighing and what not. People just stop. No problem."

 

Really? Prozac to kids? That is criminal and should be punishable by law. Idiots.