Lanah: Polydrugged: still on trazodone and seroquel

[lanah]

I am lending towards bigger cuts , but I'm not sure.

[lanah]

I'm very scared And I'm unsure as what to do! There's so much that could go wrong. What if I would just go to 10 mg, and see how long that takes me?

[lanah]

I will probably only know if I try? But I cannot find a decent precision scale I've been googling and it seems to be all really suspicious sites

[Marsha]

Altostrata said in an earlier post that she was hesitant to advise you to stop taking the seroquel but that it might be your only option. Is there any doctor you can go to who can evaluate you again for TD? I was advised to go into hospital for geodon detox but I didn't go. I was able to endure the withdrawals (I am still cns not totally stable but I have had to start my clonazepam taper) Because I have the support from my husband I was able to do it this way. I know I don't trust most doctors now either, but with the possibility of TD emerging, and if you get akathisia when you reduce, it may be for your protection that you go off in hospital. Just please get evaluated again and be assertive and pointed about your possible TD symptoms. Try to pay no mind to the fear. You can be in control of this process as unpleasant as it is. I am here and on BB if I can help you in any way.

[Altostrata]

My teeth touch at weird moments, it freaks me out

 

Please explain more about this. Which teeth? How often?

 

Doe you have other odd movements, what are they, and how often do you get them?

[Shep]

Lanah, do you wear a nightguard? This will really help with the bruxism, which is very, very common while taking psych drugs, as well as when coming off. I've been wearing one at night for almost 25 years. I had a really good dentist in my early twenties who clued me into what prescription drugs can do to your teeth. 

 

This is really something you're going to have to decide. There's no way we can tell if you have TD or not. It's unlikely due to the low dose you've been on.  And the fact that you're reporting feeling better now is a sign that holding actually helped you.  This was what you reported just a few weeks ago:

 

 

He thinks it's EPS from the seroquel. i'm going slow, because it's very hard on me. I have a lot of electricity running through me, insomnia , nausea lately. Just going to keep it stable for a while. i'm on 15 mgs now. 

 

 

It sounds like you were very symptomatic then and now you report feeling "ok-ish" in your last post. 

 

You may want to make a cut, but if it were me, I'd start very, very slowly. 

 

I will probably only know if I try? But I cannot find a decent precision scale   I've been googling and it seems to be all really suspicious sites

 

 

 

Can you order off Amazon? That's where a lot of people get them. 

 

Here's some info on scales:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1596-using-a-digital-scale-to-measure-doses/page-2

 

In that thread, Alto mentions the Gemini 20 which is currently available on Amazon for less than $20 - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012TDNAM/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=74858021359&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11942043045439295159&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_8x0qu5l3me_b

 

Is this something you can get in the UK? 

[mammaP]

I had facial TD in withdrawal and it settled down again. Recently, since my last cut of tramadol I've been getting some twitches and 'spasms', not even sure what to call them but they are involuntary movements.  I know they will settle down again and will hold my dose now until stable again.  I try not to focus on them because it seems to get worse when I'm trying to control it. My symptoms are probably not as bad as yours, but just wanted to share that I am experiencing them too right now. 

I am holding for now to allow my brain to catch up, I am already tapering very slowly but will take as long as it takes. This is my last drug too and today was tempted to just quit but common sense prevailed, I don't want to be in withdrawal again when all I have to do is be patient. 

 

Try not to panic, if you see another doctor they might not understand withdrawal and tapering so it would be best to see your own doctor when he is back from holiday if you can cope. It will pass and will get better. 

[Marsha]

 

My teeth touch at weird moments, it freaks me out

 

 

Please explain more about this. Which teeth? How often?

 

Doe you have other odd movements, what are they, and how often do you get them?

lanah if you can, please respond to Altostrata. She has years of experience and has knowledge from years of research.

[lanah]

Ok. It's the front of my teeth that suddenly "touch" sometimes it"s a small slide. I have my left eye twitching on and off. Sometimes a hand jerks, then my other foot, than another hand, then another foot, for example. I have had the electricity feeling really badly, but I know this was from the junkfood, or at least I thought so , because it started after last weekend. It just got really bad. My whole body just buzzes and tingles.
Yesterday I didn't sleep well, so luckily I did not taper yet. I think that I might be in a wave or it's the panick I had last night. I have very dry eyes. My muscles feel tense, my pelvic floor does weird stuff (I could swear I have prolapse but I probably don't)
Headaches, tinnitus. Panick attacks. Sometimes I get this low cortisol feeling of tension. This is where I'm at right now.
The exhaustion I had that felt almost deadly has lifted since a few weeks. I really thought I made my adrenals crash. My anxiety is definitely because of seroquel taper, before I started this taper I wasn't that scared. My main problem was insomnia and on and off depression. MY dh told me to not taper right now because of what I told him a few months back, but I don't really remember how bad it was.
I should have a nightguard but I don't right now.
So it's hard seperating the fear from the reality. My dh really doesn't want me to rapid taper.
 

[lanah]

Oh and almost forgot , when I was on 16mg it left me for a while those twitches and jerks. So I was convinced it wasn't TD. But now I'm doubting because of that article that bregging wrote about waxing and waning. I thought that TD didn't wax and wane

[lanah]

Ow right how often. Right now? I would say about 15 times a day? (it's a rough estimate)

[lanah]

I ordered a sleep guard! I always thought I would have to pay an orthodontist but I found one in a store. It will not have the same quality I know, but there's just not enough money for a real one. Maybe my teeth are just so wasted away that's why the front two keep touching? I can't put them all together anymore. Maybe it's this that makes it so weird. I do not know. Mentally I'm not really "good" right now.

[lanah]

I also figured out I cannot put my teeth right on top of each other my top jaw is more at the front. And my muscles are super tense and it still keeps closing at random moments. I have the option to go to 14 mgs because I already have them compounded here. But I need to wait until monday because we have celebrations here this weekend. I rather go to 14,5 but I don't have the scale yet. It will take me some time

[Altostrata]

Don't worry about your front teeth sometimes clashing. It could be your jaw muscles are tense and your jaw is a little out of alignment. The bite guard with help.

 

Try not to worry about occasional twitches, this happens in withdrawal. I had various little twitches off and on and I was off Paxil.

 

Please do not convince yourself to taper faster unless you really, really need to. Being able to sleep is very important.

[lanah]

Thank you. I know I ask a lot of you guys I'm not normally this panicky. But I guess you guys understand.

[lanah]

My tongue keeps going up and down. I don't even know anymore what is normal and what not. But because of this movement I keep having bubbles in my mouth. In three weeks I have my appointment. But I'm thinking about going to 14mgs instead of holding. I had the thought of waiting it out so I could tell my pdoc exactly what is happening. But I'm panicking all the time.

[Shep]

Going down 1 mg from 15 mg is a 6.6% reduction, which is reasonable as long as you are still able to sleep.  Not sleeping can cause a lot more problems. 

 

Did you make the cut yesterday? How are you feeling? 

[lanah]

I didn't! I'm holding on with everything I got. I think it got a bit better, i'm still unsure though, but I need to check if it's a wave or not. I'm a little less panicky but still have mental issues (today was an anger day) I really want to make this trip this summer (after being housebound for 3 years, I deserve this and want this with all my heart)

[lanah]

a lot of sx subsided, I'm even getting 7 hours of sleep!!! But the problem is that since 1 week I'm having fibromyalgia type pain :s I did not have it until now. Usually I get tense muscles but I don't have tense muscles it feels damaged and it's getting worse. I don't get it, I'm sleeping very well :s 
When is this going to end? Did anyone have this type of sx yet? 

[lanah]

I will make a cut from 15 to 12.5 mgs in august. I know it is larger than usual but I need to know if I can handle a bigger cut. I've thought long and hard about this, and I need to know. Otherwise I will keep panicking all the way through this.
My acupuncturist is on board and he will see me twice a week throughout the first month. At least I will be at half my dosage then. (original dosage 25 mg)
I seriously can't wait to be med free, but I guess everyone feels this way on here.
Considering my history half dosage of 1 pill would be an improvement. But I feel that I lived through so much that I want it to end. My new hopes are to taper off seroquel in 2017. I know I shouldn't hope too much , because tapers never go as planned.
I have lot's of muscle spasms and my neck kind of collapsed forwards (words of my osteopath) it's creepy. I'm scared it's permanent. But what else can I do? I can only go forward as much as I can.

[lanah]

I know about the microtaper choices. But I just need to know, so sorry if it's not what was suggested here. If I fail at least I will know and have peace of mind.

[lanah]

so I went to the pdoc again today, and he stated that tardive dyskinesia and dystonia start much later on. That this is more about all the withdrawals. That we need to continue tapering but that I wouldn't win anything when I would cold turkey or taper too quickly. He did think that going a bit faster was doable.
I'm a bit torn. He said that the cases of permanent dyskinesia that they see are people who have been taking high doses for 20+ years.
I guess I have no option than to believe him. So my next cut is in august. I hope everything will go well. My neck hurts like hell, osteopath said that it collapsed forward, but I hope it's unrelated to the meds and it's more because I spend so much time in bed because of a bad wave a few weeks ago. Hopefully my neckpain will resolve itself.
Withdrawal causes so much uncertainties. It's hard for me. I wish I had more of a clear view of what is what.

[Shep]

I will make a cut from 15 to 12.5 mgs in august. I know it is larger than usual but I need to know if I can handle a bigger cut. I've thought long and hard about this, and I need to know. Otherwise I will keep panicking all the way through this.

 

 

Hi, Lanah.

 

I'm confused about this. Many people panic at the thought of having to taper too fast and too soon. Why do you feel you the need to know if you can handle a bigger cut? 

 

With all of the pain you're going through, it seems the "soft and gentle landing" would be the best approach.  For me, Seroquel had that sedating, muscle-relaxing quality to it, so making a sudden drop may make your neck pain worse, as well as cause other symptoms to appear. 

 

Try not to project too much into the future. You have a wonderful holiday that you're looking forward to. Maybe that will help with the neck pain. Holding tightly onto really dark thoughts can also cause muscle tension and pain, so give yourself credit for all of the work you've done to get off a ton of other meds and keep looking to being medication free. It will happen. 

[lanah]

I wonder if the seroquel has a paradoxical effect on me, because some symptoms are better when I lower, but I am stable on 15 mgs for about 5 months I think? And the muscles are just getting worse lately. But it's also really the bone structure that changed. I let my husband draw my spine on my back so I could see it with my own eyes and it crooked , that does explain why I walk with a limp, my right foot is turning outwards, and my neck is much more forward now, but it's really the bone so I cannot change that. 
I wonder if it's the pills or something else going on, because I haven't read anyone who is getting deformed in the process. 
The symptoms that get worse while lowering is: more insomnia, more dizzyness, more anxiety, more depression, more akathesia
The symptoms that get better are: the dryness, I think the muscles a bit but I should lower again to be sure, the brain fog

It's not a coincidence that I cold turkeyed over 15 meds. I hate tapering. I thought everyone did but the others are much more couragious than me and that's why people are able to taper. I am in a situation where I put an extreme amount of energy and effort to slow myself down. Because I am known to be living with my foot stuck to the gas pedal. I used to work fulltime, study and do competitions with my discipline, and I loved it. But now. 
It's exhausting. I hate this slowness. But I'm doing it because I believe it's good for me. 
If it would work then it would be such a relief to be going a bit more faster. If it doesn't then I know why I am putting this amount of energy in slowness and then I will accept it. 

The pdoc said to enjoy it too and I will try. Thank you!
 

[Shep]

Seroquel can go paradoxical,  any medications can. I had that problem on the lower doses of Seroquel, and I tried to increase the dose, but it made it worse. I wish I had an easy answer for you, but you really are getting closer and closer to be medication free. 

 

Serotonin has "bone pain" as an uncommon side effect, but I haven't come across anything where it creates a structural problem.

 

Musculoskeletal

Common (1% to 10%): Back pain, twitching, arthralgia, dysarthria, extremity pain, muscle rigidity, musculoskeletal stiffness
Uncommon (0.1% to 1%): Pathological fracture, myasthenia, leg cramps, bone pain
Frequency not reported: Elevations in serum creatine phosphokinase (not associated with NMS)
Postmarketing reports: Rhabdomyolysis

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/seroquel-side-effects.html

 

Serotonin can be linked to bone problems, as mentioned in this article on SSRIs and the effects on bones:

 

http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/certain-anti-depressants-may-erode-bone

 

So it could be your previous meds leaving an effect. 

 

I do understand the frustration of all of this, but again, you are getting closer and closer to your goal. And once you are completely off all of these meds, hopefully you'll have the energy to put into some physical therapy, acupuncture, or other forms of treatment for your bone and muscle issues. I do know this process makes us much more susceptible to pain, so as you heal, your threshold for handling pain and any discomfort will improve, as will your options for handling other types of treatment and physical therapy, if that is what's needed. 

 

Life will get better. I would still taper off slowly, as you mention insomnia getting worse. Not being able to sleep causes a ton of problems. This is just temporary. You'll get your active life back again. 

[lanah]

Ok so I'm still stable on the 15mgs, I was thinking about the limbic kindling , I feel like i've kindled a lot and that's why all these small cuts don't do me any good. Now , maybe I should just stay on the 15 mgs for an extra year and see how I feel in a year, or make slightly bigger cuts so I don't shock my system on a regular bases. I think that even a small cut would be felt, I'm extremely sensitive. I don't really know what to decide that's why I'm not making any decision right now. I just wonder what people do when they are very kindled? 

[downtongirl]

Lana do you think your akathisia is a side effect of the seroquel or a withdrawal symptom?

[lanah]

I have no clue. Had it tonight again. I would suspect that a side effect would be there all the time and because it cycles it's a withdrawal effect? But I can never be sure

[genlady]

I first developed dyskensia while taking Nardil and was taken off that one.  Over time if I stayed on a medication for an extended time I would again develop dyskensia.  In 2011 I was put on Seroquel because I was coming off Klonopin and I developed Dyskensia.  Looking back it could have been because of the withdrawal from Klonopin.  I've suffered with several total body unvoluntary movements for over two years now and still have them three, four times a day.   They are very distressing to say the least. 

[lanah]

The movements are still present after two months (had an acute health problem which has cost lot's of stress) 
But i'm scared that tapering on my kindled CNS will cause more problems. 
I still don't know if it's because of my previous cold turkeys because i still get waves. 
My sx right now: extreme dryness, insomnia, lot's of rem sleep (no deep sleep), easy to panic, myoclonic jerks, fasciculations, trembling, muscle stiffness and lactic acid in my muscles. 

I slept great for a while before injuring myself. So now if i would taper i would sleep even worse and that's not good for my injury. 

[lanah]

So i'm at 14 mgs right now, after the holidays i will taper more quickly. The movements are still with me. Please pray for me. 
The doctor thinks that even with dyskinesia it's not good to taper too quickly because that also contributes to the dyskinesia. It's unclear because people on this site say different things. 

[lanah]

I have cut down to 12 mgs anyway. Of course i'm wide awake. But the movements scare me so much. 
I did go to the doctor but they all say "even if it's TD then you still need to taper"
Could please someone advise me on this? Why do they say you need to cold turkey with TD? Isn't it best for your system to go slow? I would really appreciate some input

[lanah]

it's still such a long way to go from 12 mgs down. Can't believe that i'm only halfway after 1.5 year of tapering  

[scallywag]

Who is saying that you need to cold-turkey if you have TD (tardive dyskinesia)?

 

It may seem like you've got a long way to get to 0 but please remember that you've come a long, long way since 25 mg.  Every time you decrease dose, even a little bit, you are taking a step in the direction of your goal.

[lanah]

I feel horrible  
Didn't sleep for a few nights. Now a bit more sleep but i'm still shaking all the time, buzzing , tinnitus, like someone plugged me in a socket and i can't turn out 
I'm very scared. Pdoc says that even with td i still need to go slow (especially because small cuts can cause almost zero hour nights, and i have a long way to go from 12mgs down)
Please tell me it will pass

I mean, why do they say td is permanent? Maybe they don't know much about it like they don't know about withdrawal

[lanah]

I asked pdoc and he said they treat it with antipsychotics (td) generally, so maybe that's why they think it's permanent? i don'tk now i'm trying to calm myself down, not doing a great job