☼ dan998: Cold turkey, reinstatement and tapering citalopram

[Dan998]

I had to distract myself from thinking about symptoms. I would watch a lot of sport, play video games, clean the house, mow the lawn, go for a drive.

 

Recovery is incredibly hard work. Possibly the hardest thing you will ever have to endure. It seems never ending, but you just have to muddle through each day as best you can.

 

You'll look back in a years time and be amazed at the progress you've made.

[nz11]

Hi Dan

Just wanted to say thanks for commenting in my thread on the spreedsheet.

Hey ..you and i went on paxil about the same time.

Recovery is hard work alright..totally agree.

go well

[Dan998]

I've been holding at 5mg for nearly 8 weeks and have been nice and stable for about 2 weeks. I think it might well be time to start tapering again.

 

Holding doesn't prevent side effects, only a reduction in dose can do that and I'm starting to feel the usual suspects creeping back in again; apathy, tiredness, cloudy thinking and twitching muscles. 

 

I was talking about balance on someone's thread earlier. Hopefully, I've got the balance right, my brain has caught up with previous reductions and this cut will be fairly uneventful.

[AliG]

Good luck with that , Dan . I hope it goes well.  You know how this works  and seem well prepared to take it slow and steady . I'm sure this will ensure success, long term .  Have you turned into a  " turtle taperer " ?  I hope so . There are many here now who are doing the very slow taper, with great results.

Ali

[Dan998]

I was doing a micro taper before, but maybe cutting a small amount every week wasn't allowing my brain to settle down again before the next cut. So I'm just going to do 10% and wait until I'm stable again.

[Dan998]

Here is an example of psychiatry tying itself in knots again. 
 

Substance Induced Anxiety Disorder
A substance-induced anxiety disorder that begins during withdrawal may first manifest up to four weeks after an individual stops using the substance.
 
Causes
Anxiety symptoms can result from withdrawal from alcohol, sedatives, hypnotics, and anxiolytics, cocaine, and other or unknown substances. Some of the medications which may induce anxiety symptoms include anesthetics and analgesics, sympathomimetics (epinephrine or norepinephrine, for example) or other bronchodilators, anticholinergic agents, anticonvulsants, antihistamines, insulin, thyroid preparations, oral contraceptives, antihypertensive and cardiovascular medications, antiparkinsonian medications, corticosteroids, antidepressant medications, lithium carbonate , and antipsychotic medications.

So, far so good. But then look at what the treatment is; 
 

Treatment
The underlying cause of the anxiety symptoms, as well as the specific type of symptoms, determine course of treatment and is often similar to treatment for a primary anxiety disorder such as generalized anxiety disorder, phobias, panic disorder, or obsessive-compulsive disorder . Appropriate treatment usually includes medication (antianxiety or antidepressant medication)
Read more: http://www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Substance-induced-anxiety-disorder.html#ixzz46HCyWw21

 
It seems that the only way psychiatry knows how to deal with antidepressant withdrawal is more antidepressants. It's a vicious circle and they're constantly contradicting themselves. No wonder our doctors are clueless about how to safely get us off these poisons.

[Dan998]

I found this description of how antidepressants work. I've not seen this explanation before and can't decide whether it's cow's excrement or not.
 
"The SSRIs all increase levels of the neurotransmitter serotonin in the brain by preventing the reabsorption of serotonin at synapses (spaces between nerve cells). With increased serotonin, the number of serotonin receptors on nerve cells in the brain can decrease (not as many are needed). The reduction in serotonin receptors takes place over the first month or two of taking an SSRI and is technically called downregulation.
    
Downregulation allows the millions of nerve cells in the serotonin receptor system (particularly those in parts of the brain responsible for anxiety) to become less sensitive to changes in the neuro­chemical environment of the brain created by stress. That means less dramatic shifts in mood and less vulnerability to anxiety."

~The anxiety and phobia workbook / Edmund J. Bourne. -- 5th ed. p381

[SquirrellyGirl]

Here is an example of psychiatry tying itself in knots again. 

 

Substance Induced Anxiety Disorder

A substance-induced anxiety disorder that begins during withdrawal may first manifest up to four weeks after an individual stops using the substance.

 

Causes

Anxiety symptoms can result from withdrawal from alcohol, sedatives, hypnotics, and anxiolytics, cocaine, and other or unknown substances. Some of the medications which may induce anxiety symptoms include anesthetics and analgesics, sympathomimetics (epinephrine or norepinephrine, for example) or other bronchodilators, anticholinergic agents, anticonvulsants, antihistamines, insulin, thyroid preparations, oral contraceptives, antihypertensive and cardiovascular medications, antiparkinsonian medications, corticosteroids, antidepressant medications, lithium carbonate , and antipsychotic medications.

 

It seems that the only way psychiatry knows how to deal with antidepressant withdrawal is more antidepressants. It's a vicious circle and they're constantly contradicting themselves. No wonder our doctors are clueless about how to safely get us off these poisons.

 

Oh boy, isn't that just amazing?  They are recognizing the problems but then using the same poison to fix what those poisons caused to begin with!  Love it!  Good find on that, Dan!

 

SG

[Dan998]

It's like they've solved half the problem and then given up because its too difficult... Hey SG, have you noticed that the number of new people joining this forum seems to have increased lately. I think the media might have to sit up and take notice once there are enough of us complaining. It seems like because there aren't many of us, we are dismissed as extreme cases. I reckon there are millions of people in the same situation as us. The difference is, we know what's happening to us, they have been convinced it's relapse and believe that they'll need drugs for life.

 

I'm gonna put my conspiracy theory hat on here and suggest that the doctors and big pharma know they've screwed up. They have decided to sweep it under the carpet, encourage the myths,  squash any dissent about withdrawal and hope they have all retired before the s*** hits the fan.

[Martina23]

For me I hope I am still alive when "the sh*t hits the fan". I would so much like to see the doctor which prescribed me this poison in prison or at least that they are confronted within the trial that they ruined so many peoples lives. It makes me angry that they dont even acknowledge it and prescribe the meds further everywhere they can. And we have to fight here.

[SquirrellyGirl]

LOL, I agree with all you wrote above, Dan!

 

I used to spend a lot of time on patient.info, a UK-based site.  People post questions about their particular drug, seeking reassurance when that drug is causing huge side effects and even suicidal ideation a month or more after starting, and seeking advice about withdrawal.  Of course, everyone and his mother shows up acting like an expert. 

 

What I learned from hanging around over there is;

 

1) In the UK psych meds are THE first line of attack for even garden-variety depression or anxiety perhaps after a break-up, job loss, death of a family member, etc.

2) EVERYONE has bought into the imbalance theory of depression and mental illness

3)  More often than not, people chime in with "hang in there, it will get better, it takes time to heal from this disease" meaning that the drug will heal their disease with time and persistence, and this advice is given even when the person is suicidal or suffering unacceptable levels of side effects or having an adverse reaction!

4)  In the case of folks having stopped their meds, often cold turkey, NOBODY recognizes protracted WD symptoms!  It's always a relapse!

5) When people say they want to come off, others chime in with "why do you want to stop when it's going well?  Why disrupt the apple cart?"  Basically, stay on it for life!

6) Trolls get very upset and report you when you try to educate people about the myths about depression and the harm caused by long term AD use, direct them to SA, suggest that their doctors are idiots for telling them to cold turkey or taper too fast (in so many words), etc.  I got warned and banned, and had posts moderated away, one simply alerting people about protracted withdrawal and resources for helping people come off psych meds properly.  I put up one post suggesting that before people go on meds they should do a web search for some terms that would lead them to an article about informed consent before taking psych meds, but it was considered too inflammatory and deleted. All in all it was  very discouraging!  I have faded away over there. 

 

There was one gal that I was watching closely.  She was coming off mirtazapine after it pooped out after four years.  She loved it, gave her her life back, etc.  She ignored the 10% advice and proceeded to taper very quickly, using a homemade liquid.  I think it took her 4 months to come off 45 mg.  She was using trazadone heavily to deal with insomnia, especially during the last part.  Hello, next dependency!

 

She jumped off and declared herself a success story right away.  I knew the story wasn't over, though.  During her taper she mentioned that she had stage 3 kidney disease and that she suspected the mirt had caused it.  After she was done, she reported that it was getting better, yeah!  But then she began complaining that she had no energy, the insomnia was back, and the depression was coming back. Someone suggested thyroid and she said that it had been checked and was normal.  A few weeks went by.  She then reported that she was found to be HYPERTHYROID and that this was probably why she was having symptoms and that the mirt had probably covered it up, that it wasn't withdrawal. And her depression was her old depression coming back.  Someone suggested she was in withdrawal, but by god no, it wasn't, there was another explanation, always!  I'm guessing that she would rather not admit that her taper was still too fast and that everyone who had warned her (including me) along the way, was right!  I'll be watching her, yet. She's been put on drugs to treat the hyperthyroidism, which I believe to be caused by WD.  Read GiaK's post about endocrine stuff to see that this is the strongest explanation :-)

 

I can't tell you how many times I noted people posting on Patient about having gone on and off a particular drug but now it isn't working.  Well, hey, they probably went back on after coming off due to protracted wd which was deemed relapse, and now their system is so sensitized that they are in treatment resistant depression, and now they're asking the forum what drug they should try next!  When I suggested they had been in protracted withdrawal, they said they never had WD symptoms, had no trouble coming off.  Some got angry that I would even imply protracted WD!

 

Probably every mental health forum you could find other than this one and Benzobuddies is the same way.

 

Vent over, off the soap box, preaching to the choir LOL!

 

We have it bad in the states, though therapy seems to be on the table as an option more-so here.  I think the NHS just finds it easier to slap people on meds there, and that's true in a lot of countries.  In the states we've got the Big Pharma marketing machine in full force with ads on TV for every new drug, and so people go to their doctor asking for it, thinking that will be the answer to all their problems.  Hey, that's how I got started on Prozac in the '90's!

 

I agree, there's been a ton of activity on SA lately!  I tried to steer people here from Patient, and I think others on there have taken over my efforts :-)  I got tired of Emmis Moderator getting after me all the time!

 

SG

[btdt]

Part of the reason people are resistant to wd is they want to believe the doc and the system they rely on to care not only for them but for all those they love ... what would it mean if these systems were wrong?  It is a big deal. 

 

Another is delayed withdrawal and like you say if they are not getting any new symptoms like brain zaps it is easy to fool people I was fooled for years.  

 

One thing that could help them know they are having drug induced problems is to look up the drug side effects thyroid issues are a big one for all these drugs.  Tho I have to admit I went to look at the drug monograph for effexor and it is not the same as it once was... the side effects list was shorter much shorter I think I did not find the right page.  

 

Too bad all those old sites are gone as I know they had all the side effects listed. 

[btdt]

I found this description of how antidepressants work. I've not seen this explanation before and can't decide whether it's cow's excrement or not.

 

"The SSRIs all increase levels of the neurotransmitter serotonin in the brain by preventing the reabsorption of serotonin at synapses (spaces between nerve cells). With increased serotonin, the number of serotonin receptors on nerve cells in the brain can decrease (not as many are needed). The reduction in serotonin receptors takes place over the first month or two of taking an SSRI and is technically called downregulation.

    

Downregulation allows the millions of nerve cells in the serotonin receptor system (particularly those in parts of the brain responsible for anxiety) to become less sensitive to changes in the neuro­chemical environment of the brain created by stress. That means less dramatic shifts in mood and less vulnerability to anxiety."

~The anxiety and phobia workbook / Edmund J. Bourne. -- 5th ed. p381

Yes I heard this before it was a big talk at paxil progress for a time there was one thread in particular about just this topic. 

It was the explanation for wd... and how the brain recovers and why it may not ect.... this is what I can recall from there and what I have learned since. 

 

The number of receptors decrease because the body says hey there is too much serotonin here we need to shut it down... sot hey kill off some receptors... 

In a study on baboons I think it was baboons the receptors were twisted after the ssri... and seven years later they were still twisted... like a cork screw... so not so much drug can get in the brain even tho they are flooded in it serotonin... 

Not only that but the body stops making so much serotonin it put the brakes on the best it can but it takes time to do this and when it does it sometimes it goes too far... that is my own idea... and it can't do it as fast as taking a drug can make the change... 

 

So when you stop taking a drug suddenly the body now knows low serotonin because the body has adapted to having a drug by shutting down receptors and not making as much serotonin... because you got it is pill form... 

 

now stop the drug suddenly your body cannot ramp up making more serotonin to make up for the pill... and the receptors once twisted do not untwist... the body apparently does grow new receptors but from what I read they are fragile maybe they need time to mature maybe they are not as good as the old ones... who knows what it takes to grow receptors ... (looking up when humans develop serotonin receptors in the brain may be helpful or maybe not.... if we knew what stage they were made it could point to some new clues...)

 

Going cold turkey leaves your body not making enough serotonin and not able to use the amount you are making because of lack of receptors.

 

I have wondered about this in the people who have set backs at eighteen months out... some of them get protracted...

 

like me

 

I wonder where the fault is...

 

if the receptors were originally created at birth or shortly after in that supreme human growth spurt we know only toddlers have maybe these new receptors fail because they are missing something from that time.... or maybe it just takes years for them to grow up.. and fly straight...

 

It is an interesting part of this situation and it has been on the table for years likely almost ten years... as I read it at paxil progress years ago.  They had all the pages of science to back it up I am not sure if they are here or not. Tho I have read it other places too... I will say it seems the decent science I use to be able to find on ssri regarding this and other ssri subjects seems to have been culled in the last five or so years a lot of pages have gone 404 or been corrupted beyond recognition...  

 

I spent the last many years in wd seeking answers I had a lot of information on an old computer I cannot find anymore.  So I appreciate you posting this as I am not sure if it is readily accessible.

 

What I wrote above...

  "Not only that but the body stops making so much serotonin it put the brakes on the best it can but it takes time to do this and when it does it sometimes it goes too far

maybe causes this suicidal bit whcih I also had.... I wonder... 

 

this is a series of three videos worth watching in my opinion

[DaddyCee]

gawd that patient info forum is shoddy. How do you even manage to keep track of what members are posting?  I much prefer SA

 

DC

[btdt]

I found this description of how antidepressants work. I've not seen this explanation before and can't decide whether it's cow's excrement or not.

 

"The SSRIs all increase levels of the neurotransmitter serotonin in the brain by preventing the reabsorption of serotonin at synapses (spaces between nerve cells). With increased serotonin, the number of serotonin receptors on nerve cells in the brain can decrease (not as many are needed). The reduction in serotonin receptors takes place over the first month or two of taking an SSRI and is technically called downregulation.

    

Downregulation allows the millions of nerve cells in the serotonin receptor system (particularly those in parts of the brain responsible for anxiety) to become less sensitive to changes in the neuro­chemical environment of the brain created by stress. That means less dramatic shifts in mood and less vulnerability to anxiety."

~The anxiety and phobia workbook / Edmund J. Bourne. -- 5th ed. p381

Did this book post any reference to the above  any studies ect..

I would like to make note of them if I can find them.

[Dan998]

Feeling bleurghh today. I wanted to reply properly to all your replies, but it just ain't happening. Far too much cognitive dysfunction and a cracking headache. I'm guessing it's because I dropped my dose a few days ago.

[btdt]

Don't worry about it Dan your health comes first and everybody here knows what it is like you don't even have to say it... when your ready we will still be here. 

wishing you peace

[SquirrellyGirl]

gawd that patient info forum is shoddy. How do you even manage to keep track of what members are posting?  I much prefer SA

 

DC

 

I don't spend much time over there anymore, just can't take it!

 

SG

[SquirrellyGirl]

Feeling bleurghh today. I wanted to reply properly to all your replies, but it just ain't happening. Far too much cognitive dysfunction and a cracking headache. I'm guessing it's because I dropped my dose a few days ago.

Sorry, we kinda hijacked your thread anyway!  Need to get it back on you!  I hope you pull out of the blehs real soon!

 

SG

[Dan998]

Sorry, we kinda hijacked your thread anyway!  Need to get it back on you!  I hope you pull out of the blehs real soon!

 

SG

 

 

No, hijacking is where you stomp all over a thread, completely change the subject of the discussion or incessantly talk about yourself. That didn't happen here. I posted something interesting that I found out and you all talked about it. Not hijacking at all.

 

I probably should have posted this sort of thing somewhere else anyway, in the media or off-topic. I've been on this forum for a year now and I'm still finding my way around. 

[btdt]

You could still put it in the media if you want and add the references if there are any

[Dan998]

LOL, I agree with all you wrote above, Dan!

 

I used to spend a lot of time on patient.info, a UK-based site.  People post questions about their particular drug, seeking reassurance when that drug is causing huge side effects and even suicidal ideation a month or more after starting, and seeking advice about withdrawal.  Of course, everyone and his mother shows up acting like an expert. 

 

What I learned from hanging around over there is;

 

1) In the UK psych meds are THE first line of attack for even garden-variety depression or anxiety perhaps after a break-up, job loss, death of a family member, etc.

2) EVERYONE has bought into the imbalance theory of depression and mental illness

3)  More often than not, people chime in with "hang in there, it will get better, it takes time to heal from this disease" meaning that the drug will heal their disease with time and persistence, and this advice is given even when the person is suicidal or suffering unacceptable levels of side effects or having an adverse reaction!

4)  In the case of folks having stopped their meds, often cold turkey, NOBODY recognizes protracted WD symptoms!  It's always a relapse!

5) When people say they want to come off, others chime in with "why do you want to stop when it's going well?  Why disrupt the apple cart?"  Basically, stay on it for life!

6) Trolls get very upset and report you when you try to educate people about the myths about depression and the harm caused by long term AD use, direct them to SA, suggest that their doctors are idiots for telling them to cold turkey or taper too fast (in so many words), etc.  I got warned and banned, and had posts moderated away, one simply alerting people about protracted withdrawal and resources for helping people come off psych meds properly.  I put up one post suggesting that before people go on meds they should do a web search for some terms that would lead them to an article about informed consent before taking psych meds, but it was considered too inflammatory and deleted. All in all it was  very discouraging!  I have faded away over there. 

 

There was one gal that I was watching closely.  She was coming off mirtazapine after it pooped out after four years.  She loved it, gave her her life back, etc.  She ignored the 10% advice and proceeded to taper very quickly, using a homemade liquid.  I think it took her 4 months to come off 45 mg.  She was using trazadone heavily to deal with insomnia, especially during the last part.  Hello, next dependency!

 

She jumped off and declared herself a success story right away.  I knew the story wasn't over, though.  During her taper she mentioned that she had stage 3 kidney disease and that she suspected the mirt had caused it.  After she was done, she reported that it was getting better, yeah!  But then she began complaining that she had no energy, the insomnia was back, and the depression was coming back. Someone suggested thyroid and she said that it had been checked and was normal.  A few weeks went by.  She then reported that she was found to be HYPERTHYROID and that this was probably why she was having symptoms and that the mirt had probably covered it up, that it wasn't withdrawal. And her depression was her old depression coming back.  Someone suggested she was in withdrawal, but by god no, it wasn't, there was another explanation, always!  I'm guessing that she would rather not admit that her taper was still too fast and that everyone who had warned her (including me) along the way, was right!  I'll be watching her, yet. She's been put on drugs to treat the hyperthyroidism, which I believe to be caused by WD.  Read GiaK's post about endocrine stuff to see that this is the strongest explanation :-)

 

I can't tell you how many times I noted people posting on Patient about having gone on and off a particular drug but now it isn't working.  Well, hey, they probably went back on after coming off due to protracted wd which was deemed relapse, and now their system is so sensitized that they are in treatment resistant depression, and now they're asking the forum what drug they should try next!  When I suggested they had been in protracted withdrawal, they said they never had WD symptoms, had no trouble coming off.  Some got angry that I would even imply protracted WD!

 

Probably every mental health forum you could find other than this one and Benzobuddies is the same way.

 

Vent over, off the soap box, preaching to the choir LOL!

 

We have it bad in the states, though therapy seems to be on the table as an option more-so here.  I think the NHS just finds it easier to slap people on meds there, and that's true in a lot of countries.  In the states we've got the Big Pharma marketing machine in full force with ads on TV for every new drug, and so people go to their doctor asking for it, thinking that will be the answer to all their problems.  Hey, that's how I got started on Prozac in the '90's!

 

I agree, there's been a ton of activity on SA lately!  I tried to steer people here from Patient, and I think others on there have taken over my efforts :-)  I got tired of Emmis Moderator getting after me all the time!

 

SG

SG, I totally agree about all the pro drug sites. I've seen quite a few of them too. It gets very frustrating reading all the false rhetoric and seeing people who are obviously suffering withdrawal being convinced that they are mentally ill. Breggin calls it spellbinding, they refuse to acknowledge that their symptoms are caused by the drugs. I suppose, at the end of the day, people are going to believe what they want to believe. Even so, I think it is important to get our stories out into the world. If just one person gets curious about withdrawal and starts searching for answers, then it will be worthwhile.

 

I’m gonna head on over to some of the social anxiety sites and try to scare people away from starting medication. There’s loads of folk on these sites that are being convinced that shyness is a mental disorder that needs medicating with powerful psychotropic drugs, when they would probably derive just as much benefit from some exposure therapy to boost their self confidence.

 

You're also spot-on about the attitude to antidepressants in the UK. They are the first line, and usually the only treatment available. I was put on them for mild depression/ social anxiety and was left on them for 15 years with hardly any follow up by my doctors. I was never offered therapy. I once asked about CBT and was told it wasn't very effective and to keep taking the tablets until I felt better.

 

It all comes down to money. Because the NHS is funded by the taxpayer they have an obligation to provide healthcare in the most cost effective manner possible.  The truth is we're not offered therapy because it costs too much. One hour of therapy costs about the same as 4 years worth of drugs. I recently found a document that illustrates this point. Its about switching patients from escitalopram to citalopram;

 

"Escitalopram is considerably more expensive than citalopram. A month supply of escitalopram 20mg costs £25.20 compared to £1.06 for citalopram 40mg."

~ http://www.ipswichandeastsuffolkccg.nhs.uk/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=6JoKJA8nPsg%3D&tabid=254&portalid=1&mid=843

[btdt]

Drug therapy is only cheaper than talk therapy now that many drugs are off patent this was not always the case when they first came out they cost an arm and a leg.  When I was given a generic effexor and had a melt down from it I had to pay for the patented one myself to the tune of 300 a month ball park. 

Patents are defended tooth and nail while a drugs patent is in effect pharma will guard it against bad press once it is off patent and they have a new like drug on patent they will kick the old drug like a dead horse to promote the new drug...often the new drug is exactly the same as the old.. it is all about money but not just in the way you stated that is my opinion. 

[Dan998]

 

I found this description of how antidepressants work. I've not seen this explanation before and can't decide whether it's cow's excrement or not.

 

"The SSRIs all increase levels of the neurotransmitter serotonin in the brain by preventing the reabsorption of serotonin at synapses (spaces between nerve cells). With increased serotonin, the number of serotonin receptors on nerve cells in the brain can decrease (not as many are needed). The reduction in serotonin receptors takes place over the first month or two of taking an SSRI and is technically called downregulation.

    

Downregulation allows the millions of nerve cells in the serotonin receptor system (particularly those in parts of the brain responsible for anxiety) to become less sensitive to changes in the neuro­chemical environment of the brain created by stress. That means less dramatic shifts in mood and less vulnerability to anxiety."

~The anxiety and phobia workbook / Edmund J. Bourne. -- 5th ed. p381

Yes I heard this before it was a big talk at paxil progress for a time there was one thread in particular about just this topic. 

It was the explanation for wd... and how the brain recovers and why it may not ect.... this is what I can recall from there and what I have learned since. 

 

The number of receptors decrease because the body says hey there is too much serotonin here we need to shut it down... sot hey kill off some receptors... 

In a study on baboons I think it was baboons the receptors were twisted after the ssri... and seven years later they were still twisted... like a cork screw... so not so much drug can get in the brain even tho they are flooded in it serotonin... 

Not only that but the body stops making so much serotonin it put the brakes on the best it can but it takes time to do this and when it does it sometimes it goes too far... that is my own idea... and it can't do it as fast as taking a drug can make the change... 

 

So when you stop taking a drug suddenly the body now knows low serotonin because the body has adapted to having a drug by shutting down receptors and not making as much serotonin... because you got it is pill form... 

 

now stop the drug suddenly your body cannot ramp up making more serotonin to make up for the pill... and the receptors once twisted do not untwist... the body apparently does grow new receptors but from what I read they are fragile maybe they need time to mature maybe they are not as good as the old ones... who knows what it takes to grow receptors ... (looking up when humans develop serotonin receptors in the brain may be helpful or maybe not.... if we knew what stage they were made it could point to some new clues...)

 

Going cold turkey leaves your body not making enough serotonin and not able to use the amount you are making because of lack of receptors.

 

I have wondered about this in the people who have set backs at eighteen months out... some of them get protracted...

 

like me

 

I wonder where the fault is...

 

if the receptors were originally created at birth or shortly after in that supreme human growth spurt we know only toddlers have maybe these new receptors fail because they are missing something from that time.... or maybe it just takes years for them to grow up.. and fly straight...

 

It is an interesting part of this situation and it has been on the table for years likely almost ten years... as I read it at paxil progress years ago.  They had all the pages of science to back it up I am not sure if they are here or not. Tho I have read it other places too... I will say it seems the decent science I use to be able to find on ssri regarding this and other ssri subjects seems to have been culled in the last five or so years a lot of pages have gone 404 or been corrupted beyond recognition...  

 

I spent the last many years in wd seeking answers I had a lot of information on an old computer I cannot find anymore.  So I appreciate you posting this as I am not sure if it is readily accessible.

 

What I wrote above...

  "Not only that but the body stops making so much serotonin it put the brakes on the best it can but it takes time to do this and when it does it sometimes it goes too far

maybe causes this suicidal bit whcih I also had.... I wonder...

 

Hey BTDT,

Yes, that’s my understanding of withdrawal too. The drugs stop the serotonin from being mopped up and the receptors die off to prevent overstimulation. When the drugs are removed the ‘mops’ become active again very quickly, but the receptors grow back very slowly. This means that there is hardly any serotonin reaching the receptors and the brain is unable to properly complete vital functions that require serotonin, such as sleep, wakefulness, breathing, heart rate, core temperature, emotions etc.

 

I think that I have read that about the twisted nerve endings too. I did some digging online but couldn’t unearth the study itself, only a refernce to it with a broken link ~ http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/pinealstory3.htm

 

I also found something about synaptic regeneration ~ https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131010205325.htm

Apparently we grow new synapses, and thus receptors, all the time. If a synapse is underused it will shrivel up and die. When we learn new skills and have new experiences we make new connections and grow new synapses. So, it may be true that our brains get fried whilst on SSRI’s and our nerve endings  may become distorted and stop working properly. It should also be true that once we are free of the drugs, then it should be possible to grow new healthy receptors.

 

Perhaps what we need to do is to have a complete change of lifestyle, cast off our old ways and do something radically different, anything out of our ordinary experience in order to flood our senses with new experiences and kick start the process of neurogenesis of the synapses. That’s my plan anyway. I’m going to totally reinvent myself once I’m free of the drugs.

 

No-one knows for sure what the long term effects of SSRI use are. We are all in the dark, blindly stumbling about, searching for the exit.

[btdt]

There was some talk on pp of the new brain growth being unstable and attributing the waves hmm was it waves and windows or the length of time to truly heal... I can't recall which I do recall some sort of article scientific or otherwise being attached to the discussion. I am sure I am not the only old pp member here who know. 

As Glenmullen and Charles (from your link above antidepressantfacts.com)  pharma has the studies and they know the answers and they will not tell unless they are forced to tell or somebody leaks it like happened before... or some of those folks who sued and won know they are going to die soon and happen to drop a letter in the lawyers hand on the way out... it could happen.  I suspect those who sued had some information not available to the general public otherwise why the gag order.  It will get out one day maybe not in time to do us any good but the truth comes out sooner or later. 

[Dan998]

The drug companies may have done some studies and may know some of the answers, but the problem is that there has never been a study into the long term effects of these drugs on the human brain. We are the study, we are the guinea pigs, and the effects are only now becoming apparent. It's scandalous what has been done to us by big pharma. It's also scandalous that our governments have allowed this to happen. Everything about this stinks.

 

It's frustrating how almost everyone seems to believe that these horrible poisons are beneficial. Although, it's easy to see their point of view. The drugs stop people being mental, and when they stop taking them they go mental again. We all fell for it, time and time again. And, if you do manage to break the spell, get free of the drugs and become a success story, they'll just say that it was the drugs that cured you and you'd never had gotten better without them. That's how pharma continue get away with it.

 

I really hope the truth is out there and someone leaks it soon, but I also think the truth resides in all of us here at SA, our stories of the harm that has been done to us and our struggles to get our brains back again.

[Dan998]

This has been puzzling me for a while and it's only now, as my brain is starting to function properly, that I'm able to make sense of what happened to me... I was first put on paroxetine and it was very effective and then stopped working after a couple of years. I remember thinking that my doctor had given me a placebo to test if I still needed the pills. I decided to just stop taking them as they weren't doing anything anyway. Big mistake. Suffered withdrawals, thought I'd gone mad, went back to the doctor. 

 

I was put on citalopram, but I never got any benefical effects, all the citalopram ever did was stop the horrendous withdrawals. I repeated this process a few more times until I finally learned about withdrawal and tapering. I was in poop-out for about 13 years!!! 

 

"Although it may seem somewhat counter-intuitive, depressive symptoms may improve in some patients when the dosage is simply reduced. In their paper discussing antidepressant tachyphylaxis, Byrne and Rothschild cite several case reports describing a symptomatic recovery of the initial antidepressant efficacy when the dosage of an SSRI was actually lowered." ~ Identification and Treatment of Antidepressant Tachyphylaxis

 

This has certainly been my experience. I feel less depressed as the dose gets lower... Something else to consider is that repeated cold-turkeying might have made my brain unresponsive to any SSRI;

 

"Also, with certain classes of medications, after discontinuation of a medication a patient may become unresponsive to that medication.
For example, a person who is stable on lithium for treatment of bipolar disorder and develops a manic episode following discontinuation of lithium may not respond to lithium when it is restarted (Post, 2011). This has also been reported anecdotally with antidepressants and antipsychotics (Shore, Matthews, Cott, & Lieberman, 1995; Fava et al., 2002), though the evidence is not conclusive. It is thought that each episode, whether it is mania, depression, or psychosis, has a neurophysiological effect on the brain (i.e., damage to brain structures and nerve cells) that may make it unresponsive to a medication that was previously effective." ~ Handbook of Clinical Psychopharmacology for Therapists

 

Hopefully, I'm not brain damaged 

[btdt]

" the problem is that there has never been a study into the long term effects of these drugs on the human brain. We are the study, we are the guinea pigs, and the effects are only now becoming apparent. "  

 

I don't think a forward thinking corporation with tons of money and other resources has missed the wd sites that have been on the internet for many many years now... more than ten years or that they have completely missed all the books written about the drugs that made them rich and keep them going.  It seems a bit too naive for even me to believe that.  There have been thoughts that pharma is monitoring and even injecting phoney wd people into such site for years... as well as suspected spamming and using their influence to shut such sites down. I am not so sure they have not done their own various studies on wd... I for one would like to know all that they know.  

 

By what he said Glenmullen agrees with me that is is time the information vaults were opened lets just see what they do know. 

 

The rest of your post I agree with as for wd websites I found one in the UK from years and years ago... maybe the first one related to prozac

[btdt]

tach·y·phy·lax·is

ˌtakəfiˈlaksəs/

noun

MEDICINE

 

1. 
   
   
   

   
   

   
   

   rapidly diminishing response to successive doses of a drug, rendering it less effective. The effect is common with drugs acting on the nervous system

   
   

    

   
   

    

   
   

   As you can see I had to look that one up.. our bodies are always reacting to the drugs we take if we take drugs to increase serotonin and our bodies deem there to be too much serotonin the body will start to work at lessening the amount of serotonin ... it works slowly not fast like drugs so it may take some time.  As we have discussed already in a previous post 

   
   

    

   
   

   I think this explains why drugs stop working over time as for why the stop working if you stop and start them again... I don't know but a guess would be they were not doing much anyway as the body may have already negated the drug effect and what you think are returning symptoms may be wd... just a thought.

   
   

    

   
   

   I don't really know

   
   

    

   
   

    

   
   

   
   

   
   
   
   
   

[SquirrellyGirl]

I think this is why people end up switching around to different drugs all the time when one poops out.  It's our own version of antibiotic resistance of sorts!  And when you've burned through many, now you have "treatment resistant depression" or are told that SSRIs no longer work for you.

 

Well, we may have damaged brains but I for one don't want to keep taking the danged drugs that caused it so tip-toe off I must :-) 

 

It is truly a sucky situation because they aren't working anymore but you can't just quit them!  

 

I also believe that for many of the 12 years I was on Effexor it quit working, if it ever did at all - I certainly don't remember feeling like it improved things much.  But spellbound as I was, I just kept taking them thinking my brain was of the broken variety that "needed" the meds.

 

SG

[Dan998]

You're quite right, btdt. I didn't express my point very well there. What I meant to say was that when the drugs were first released there wasn't any long term studies.

 

I have no doubt that pharma are monitoring the internet and doing their best to suppress the truth. Not sure they need the 'moles' as the pro-antidepressant propaganda is so good that people are falling over themselves to extol the benefits of ADs and tell us they we are wrong about withdrawal.  

 

I also wouldn't be at all surprised if they either bought out, closed down or disrupted websites that disagreed with them or threatened their profits. It is common business practice to act in this manner.

 

The compensation payouts would run into $billions If it could be proved that they knew about lack of efficacy, horrendous side effects and  protracted withdrawal before they released to market. So, I can't see them opening the vaults anytime soon, but I suppose we can live in hope that there may be a disgruntled employee who does a wikileaks and blows the whistle on the entire scam.

[Dan998]

Yes, SG. We're of the same opinion about this. We know these drugs are no good for us, they do nothing for us, and we hate that we have to keep taking them. It sucks, big time.

[Dan998]

Just realised that I didn't update you all on my recent dosage drop. I cut from 5mg to 4.5mg on 17 Apr. 

 

Days 1-4 Didn't notice any differemce

Days 5-6 Hypomania.

Days 7-12 Felt like I had a cross between the flu and a hangover. Had no energy. Cognitve and memory difficulties, was unable to read/ write.

 

I'm now back to baseline again. I'll give it a couple more weeks and if I'm feeling alright then I'll do another cut. I have to repeat this process another 14 times before I get to 1mg and can consider stepping off. I would like to use a naughty word to describe how I feel about this. Thuck.

[Dan998]

Oh yeah, I've been having some really wacky dreams for the last week or so. Nothing too extreme, they're occasionally violent, sometimes sexual, but in general just plain weird. They wake me up 3 or 4 times per night. Not too worried about them though, as I'm able to get off to sleep again and I'm still averaging about 7 hours per night. 
 
Dreams = REM sleep. To get to REM sleep you have to go through all the other stages of sleep, including the restorative deep sleep. This is great, because if you can be bothered to scroll back through my early posts, you'll see that lack of sleep was always my biggest concern. 
 
"There appears to be a link between sleep and withdrawal symptoms. If you search online for ‘sleep deprivation’ you will notice that the symptoms are very similar. I’m not sure which causes which. Perhaps it’s a chicken and egg situation. Is insomnia just another withdrawal symptom? Or, is sleep deprivation the key that unlocks the door to hell and releases all the other withdrawal demons? I have no idea, and probably neither does anyone else"

 

I love sleep. I wish I could sleep my way through withdrawal. If I could, I'd sleep for 23 hrs and only get up to have wash, go to the toilet, get something to eat, take my meds and then go back to sleep again. 
 
Here's a chart I made: 
 

[Dan998]

I’ve had a nice little window for last week or so. In fact, I’d go as far as saying that this has been the best I’ve felt for a very long time. I haven’t been symptom free, but everything has been much less intense, my mood has dramatically improved, my anxiety has reduced and I even had a few days without any tinnitus or hyperacusis.  I’ve also been sleeping really well and waking up feeling rested.

 

Is it a window, or is it an improved baseline? Too early to tell, but really hoping it is the latter.

 

I’ve found that keeping busy and occupied has self-sustained the window. I started to feel okay and had a bit more energy, so I pushed myself to do a bit more, which in turn focused my mind and made me forget about being in withdrawal.

 

Every day, I had the thought that this might end tomorrow, so I tried to make the most of it and carried on pushing myself to catch up on neglected tasks. Got loads done around the house and garden. Still no dopamine release, but I’m confident that I’ll start enjoying myself and feel a sense of achievement one day soon.

 

I really don’t know what opened this window. I haven’t done anything different. Maybe it was the nice weather and getting a bit of sun on my face? I generally feel considerably better in the summer. I wish I could emigrate to somewhere warm.

 

Anyway, it seems to have closed for the time being. I think that because I decided to take it easy today my mind has allowed itself to look for, and find, withdrawal symptoms. I can feel the anxiety levels creeping back up again.

[AliG]

it's windows and waves , Dan.  It's the same old thing .You have to keep pushing through. Eventually , your symptoms will subside.

Ali