SCD/GAPS/Paleo Diets

[Altostrata]

I have doubts about whether ingesting the glutamate that normally occurs in food causes adverse reactions. It's a natural component of animal tissue. You can't get away from it.

 

Additives are another story.

[Phil]

That's true Alto, but in bone broths the glutamic acid is broken down and released into the broth, especially the longer it's cooked. I've read anecdotal reports from others who report "spacey" feelings from broth.

It seems like it's not as much of a problem if you reduce the cooking time, though.

 

There's some comments on this blog from people who had a similar reaction:

 

http://movingstronglyforward.typepad.com/moving_strongly_forward/2009/12/amino-acids-in-bone-broth-glutamic-acid.html

 

Maybe it's only a problem for very sensitive people. Right now, I seem to be having reactions to lots of foods.

[alexjuice]

Phil,

 

I had a similar issue with bone broths, beef bone broths. I didn't get spacey though I got wound up, sweaty, libidinous, wanted to hurry hurry hurry up and get healthy.

 

I found that using beef bones without marrow mitigated the reaction though for a while I just eliminated the bone broths altogether.

 

I do find chicken broth, made with meat and bones (legs and thighs) has made me spacey, still does to a degree.

[GiaK]

I posted a nice and easy recipe for Chicken Liver Pate today...

 

thought I'd share for those interested...

 

http://beyondmeds.com/2012/09/21/chicken-liver-pate/

[Altostrata]

I absolutely love liver pate and chicken livers.

 

I don't use as much oil in mine, though. The Jewish style chopped chicken liver is coarser and not as creamy.

[GiaK]

yeah, well, I always say that recipes are just for ideas...I never stick to recipes...so everyone should feel free to tinker the crap out of it...and it's just fine with less fat, yes.

[Phil]

Phil,

 

I had a similar issue with bone broths, beef bone broths. I didn't get spacey though I got wound up, sweaty, libidinous, wanted to hurry hurry hurry up and get healthy.

 

I found that using beef bones without marrow mitigated the reaction though for a while I just eliminated the bone broths altogether.

 

I do find chicken broth, made with meat and bones (legs and thighs) has made me spacey, still does to a degree.

 

I had a similar reaction to lamb broth, Alex. I got a sudden crazy burst of energy, and went for a long, long walk and wanted to keep going and going. It lasted well into the next day.

[starlitegirlx]

It's so mind boggling how some of us are so sensitive to certain things and others have no effect. I'm thinking that during withdrawal/recovery (and I really want to start calling it recovery even though it is withdrawal if you look at it from a medical aspect - I think recovery gives us a better outlook because withdrawal has such negative connotations that it's like we've feeding that idea to ourselves so consistently that it really can't help)... anyway, I'm thinking it's all the junk that goes into foods these days. Even grass fed, free range, naturally developed chickens could get toxins via their food. And even the organic stuff is not totally clean, it's just cleaner than the stuff that has more pesticides etc on it. So I think all of the negative side effects are those toxins coming into our sensitive systems and having an adverse effect due to our already compromised health state whereas a normally healthy person not in recovery could process them, to us, even that little bit can be a trigger to unwanted reactions.

 

My thoughts on this is that going with clean eating is the best. I followed clean eating for a while and lost a good amount of weight and felt great. When I stopped for several months the side effects from imipramine came along, so I wonder if there was some sort of adaption to healthier eating that then caused a trigger with the meds when I stopped caring about healthy eating.

 

I'd recommend looking for foods that have the least amount of additives possible. Especially avoid things like MSG, and anything that's got a long name that reads like a chemical. Wheats and breads can also be risky as can sugars of any sort as they are not foods we'd naturally consume but rather things we process the heck out of to make consumable. Certain veggies are pretty dirty with all the pesticides - spinach is at the top of the list so I only eat raw organic. Sure, it still has pesticides, but not to the degree the regular kind has.

 

Anyway, that's just my thinking on this topic. Look at the foods you buy, read the labels, and see what has the least amount of additives because often those additives are varying unnatural compounds that have triggers in them. I think this may also be why certain vitamins trigger some people. Additives rather than doses or even the vitamin itself since there's no logical reason why a vitamin would cause issue unless taken in large doses. I think it's more like there are fillers in them that act as triggers. Just my thought.

 

I've been doing a lot better since I started limiting sugar and flour as much as possible and eating more meats, protein and healthier foods. It could also be where I am in my recovery but I think it's a mix of the two.

[Nadia]

Good idea. I try to eat the least processed foods possible. Sometimes it's really deceptive. I was looking at cereal packages in the supermarket the other day, wondering if maybe I could indulge in some granola, but the ingredients were worse than Fruit Loops and some other "junk food" cereals!

 

And MSG... I was doing pretty well a couple of weeks ago, and then after going to a Japanese restaurant that clearly used MSG (from the taste), I woke up with anxiety the next day and took a turn for the worst. There was no other thing that I think could have set it off...

[Skyler]

I found the following article on Gluten and thought it offered some thought provoking considerations about how we develop gluten intolerance and whether we can eat bread once we are so afflicted. ~S

.................................

 

Our Daily Bread

 

At least that’s what we used to call it. Now it seems half of us can’t eat the stuff. What’s gone wrong with the staff of life, and can we fix it?

 

By Todd Oppenheimer for Whole Living 2012

 

Every Wednesday morning, on the soothing edge of the California beach town of Santa Monica, a strange scene unfolds at the local farmers’ market. In the last stall, a middle-aged baker named Jack Bezian stands selling sourdough loaves—made mostly with plain, refined wheat flour—surrounded by large signs screaming about the nutritional land mines in standard bread. “Don’t eat whole grains if you don’t know how,” one sign proclaims. “Roman soldiers had only sourdough bread to get protein,” says another. “Why look for other sources of food when sourdough gives you most of the nutrients in a balanced form?” asks a third.

 

Despite this odd battery of assertions—and the intensely sour flavor of the loaves buttressing his claims—Bezian’s bread sells like crazy every week. And his most devoted customers are those who have suffered discomforts, often for years, from various properties in wheat products—primarily the presence of gluten, the grain’s core binding element.

 

Take Vivi Cortes, who approached Bezian’s stand one morning, pushing a 2-year-old in a stroller with her 8-year-old son by her side. For years, Cortes had noticed that after she and the family ate bread, they tended to get constipated and fall into a kind of stupor—“brain fog,” she called it. And her son’s reaction seemed more serious. “He was always fidgeting, and he was never full,” she told me. Cortes eventually took her son to a pediatrician, who found the boy to be gluten intolerant. Alarms went off. “We have a friend who is celiac. She is only eighteen and now she no longer has her colon.” (Among gluten sensitivities, celiac disease is in a class of its own. By far the most serious of the family, it springs from a set of inherited genes but at some point is mysteriously provoked into a permanent autoimmune disorder.)

 

At first, Cortes followed the advice given to everyone with sensitivities to gluten: Stop eating wheat. And when it comes to bread, pasta, and other starches, buy gluten-free. Unfortunately, this isn’t much of a solution, for three reasons. First, restricted diets are difficult to maintain, especially for children. Second, most gluten-free products are expensive, yet comparatively empty nutritionally; many include their own little nasties (xanthan gum and refined sugars, for instance, as well as gooey, fiberless starches). “It’s the soda-pop version of bread,” said David Killilea, Ph.D., a scientist at Children’s Hospital Oakland Research Institute (CHORI), in California, who has been analyzing bread flours. Third, and partly because of those nasties, gluten-free bread can feel unsatisfying. As Cortes’s son continually told her, “I need bread! I want normal food!”

 

So when a friend recommended Bezian’s loaves, Cortes was more than willing to give it a try. “It was amazing!” she said. “His focus didn’t change, he didn’t eat so much. Now we eat it all the time, like a vitamin. We eat six to ten loaves a week. And we stay stable in our weight and in our energy.”

 

As Cortes paid for her seven loaves, her enthusiasm turned expansive. “If you eat a living product, you’re going to stay alive,” she said. “If you eat a dead product, you’re gonna die.” Bezian smiled, because Cortes so beautifully recited his heretical theories—namely, that in contrast to standard bread, some microbes in his loaves survive the heat of an oven; that his bread contains more probiotics and other nutrients than uncooked fermented foods such as yogurt and sauerkraut, which are believed to be packed with beneficial bacteria; and finally, this: “Never look at just the ingredients for your nutrition,” Bezian told me. “Look at the microbes that grow on those ingredients.”

 

All of which presents a conundrum. On one hand, few of Bezian’s ideas hold up under scientific scrutiny (for starters, dough can’t turn breadlike until it reaches 180 degrees, and 140 degrees kills most microbes, including probiotics). On the other hand, there is clearly something special about Bezian’s bread. Even as compared with other sourdoughs, his loaves taste surprisingly rich, with a network of flavors that seem unusually balanced, as if they had achieved some elusive gastronomic unity. The result is a bread that is simultaneously addictive and satisfying. “The first time I tried this bread, I thought, Oh my God! I have never known what real bread is!” said Kim Mora, a friend of Cortes’s. “It’s like manna!” said Lori Shapiro, a rabbi from Venice Beach who suffers from gluten intolerance and has become a devotee of Bezian’s loaves.

 

Cortes’s husband believes he has developed thicker, healthier hair thanks to the bread, and another customer—Shirley Vernale, who started losing her hair during the stressful years of child-raising— found her hair growing back after she started eating it five years ago. “Now, my hair is amazing,” she told me. “It’s made of Jack’s bread!”

 

Exactly how Bezian achieves such nutritional magic is difficult to discern. Operating with no storefront bakery, he prepares his bread in the back of his dusty former grocery store on the edge of downtown L.A. The most he’ll divulge about his methods is that he lets his dough ferment for a very long time—sometimes, he said, for as long as a month. (Most sourdough bakers let their dough sit for 20 hours at most.) Since Bezian refrigerates his dough rather than leaving it at room temperature, though, other bakers I spoke with suspect those extra weeks are simply delaying his fermentation, not enriching it. It all makes you wonder: Would any sourdough loaf therefore be fine for the gluten sensitive? And just what’s behind the seeming ubiquity of today’s gluten issues anyway?

 

Bread and the Baby Boomer

For some 10,000 years, humans have eaten wheat and the handful of other grains that contain gluten with relative ease. After World War II, however, digestive complaints worldwide began to climb. In the past 50 years, the rate of people testing positive for celiac disease just in the United States has risen more than 400 percent—and that’s allowing for any increase from better detection methods. There are no reliable statistics on the number of people with non-autoimmune sensitivities—namely, gluten intolerance or wheat allergies—and the symptoms those sensitivities provoke. (Beyond fatigue, these can include bloating and diarrhea, or, in the case of wheat allergies, hives and asthma attacks.) But Peter Green, a gastroenterologist at Columbia University and the author of Celiac Disease: A Hidden Epidemic, said the number of these secondary ailments seems to have risen dramatically as well.

 

As with many diseases today (cancer, for instance), the causes remain both mysterious and multitudinous— poking at us from every corner of modern life. To take one example, Green is studying a bacterial enzyme called transglutaminase, which appears to interact with gluten in a way that may spark reactions. But the enzyme, which is used in artificial form to bind processed meats, is difficult for consumers to track: Because the Food and Drug Administration classifies it as Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS), producers don’t have to list it on labels.

 

Wheat is more decipherable, but only slightly. While the evidence so far is sparse and disorganized, there are indications that a good portion of today’s gluten sensitivities come from two big changes in the past half century: first, in how we grow and process wheat; and second, in how we turn its flour into dough. Which brings us back to Bezian, and to why sourdough appears to be so potent.

 

Flour and water cannot become bread without some kind of rising agent. Until commercial yeast was invented, over a century ago, the only such agent available was a natural “starter,” which remains the engine of sourdough bread to this day. Despite its mystique, a starter is nothing more than flour and water that has been left to sit for days, and fed intermittently with more of both. Over time, the bacteria and yeasts that naturally exist in this environment— on the grain primarily, but also in the air, in the water, and on the baker’s hands—grow and multiply, creating hyperactive live cultures. These microorganisms are what makes dough ferment, similar to the way milk ferments to become yogurt.

 

Over the past decade, several studies have found that some people with gluten issues can tolerate intensely fermented wheat. The studies are small, and celiac experts like Joe Murray, a gastroenterologist at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota, consider their data weak. Still, they point in the same direction. One, published in 2007 in the peer-reviewed Applied and Environmental Microbiology, found that when wheat bread was thoroughly fermented, it reduced gluten levels from roughly 75,000 parts per million to 12—a level that technically qualifies as gluten-free. How is this even possible?

 

According to the literature, fermentation’s trick with sourdough lies in its native bacteria and yeasts. As these microbes feed on grain’s proteins and starches, they break down gluten into more digestible elements. They also gorge on the grain’s sugars, turning them into compounds that our stomachs absorb more slowly than the sugars in standard bread. “There is a transformation that happens with fermentation,” Peter Reinhart, the dean of American bread writers, told me. “It’s kind of a way of processing food without the heat.” As all these microbes munch away, pooping and farting as they go, they leave behind gases and more bacteria— the main elements of sourdough bread’s complex flavors. Expert bakers are thus essentially bug ranchers, managing their herds to achieve their signature balance between flatulence and, well, that other stuff. The result is a fecundity of enzymes, amino acids, and more than 200 flavor compounds.

 

Commercial bread cannot begin to duplicate this messy barnyard. Instead of being fertilized by a riot of voracious bugs, it is prepared with only one strain of yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae). Because of its vigor, Saccharomyces was targeted (by the great Louis Pasteur) and ultimately commercialized into powdered form. This left the yeast artificially isolated from its mates—grain’s natural yeasts and bacteria. Jilted and lonely, Saccharomyces gobbles the dough’s microflora, rushing the fermentation process. Thus its bread’s relative flavorlessness— and the agent’s nickname: “instant yeast.” Bakers tolerate the yeast’s drawbacks because it affords a recipe that is idiotproof, and because it seriously speeds production.

 

Amazingly, though, Bezian is accomplishing his purported health feats with an ingredient that has long been considered all but nutritionally empty: unbleached, nonorganic, white flour. (Within the family of flours, the least nutritious turns out to be organic white flour, because it contains little if any of the vitamin, mineral, and malt “enrichments” that, by law, must be put back into nonorganic white flour. As a result, organic white flour tends to make poor sourdough starters, since it is thin on the micronutrients that sourdough bugs feed on.) But why use white flour to begin with? Or, as Reinhart put it, “Why not whole grain? Why not a different delivery system” for all those digestive enzymes?

 

If you ask Bezian, you’ll get another testimony to fermentation’s omnipotence. “You’re getting more nutrition from the fermentation than from the bran and germ combined!” he said. While I could findno scientist to back the entirety of that claim, Bezianis leery of whole-grain flours for another reason: Many of his customers find whole-grain breads difficult to digest, even when fully fermented. Why? Bezian believes it’s in part because the particles in whole-grain flours are rougher than those in white flour, which has been essentially powdered. If Bezian’s customers represent a trend, we have entered a whole new era. Not so long ago, whole grain flour—with its rich germ and its abundance of fiber—was at the apex of healthful eating. If people now need white bread because they can’t digest that fiber, something significant has changed.

 

Field Work

Half a world away, just outside the town of Mariager, on Denmark’s Jutland peninsula, a soft-spoken plant pathologist named Anders Borgen tends a two-acre organic farm that contains more than 2,000 kinds of wheat, none of which he can use commercially. “If I find a good variety, I am not allowed to sell it,” Borgensaid. The European Union strictly regulates its grain farmers, allowing them to grow only those varieties that have been certified for reliable high yields.

 

High-yield wheat varieties made their global debut in 1961, when the American agronomist Norman Borlaug created arugged new variety that benefited from heavy applications of fertilizers. It also produced a field uncommonly thickwith wheat berries. (He later exported his discovery to help developing countries feed their growing populations and is frequently credited for having saved a billion lives.) Not surprisingly, Borlaug’s success inspired imitators, and high yield wheat was soon dominating grain fields from India to Iowa.

 

A bigger, hungrier world also required more industrialized methods of production.Farmers obliged by supplying commodities tough enough to endure handling by machinery and transcontinental shipping. Having survived drought and disease, wheat now had to withstand the beating that flour would get in industrial dough-mixers—and still emerge as the puffy loaves then beginning to adorn grocery-store shelves.

 

The primary answer to these demands was more plant muscle, which meant stronger glutens. As genetic variety in the world’s wheat fields slowly narrowed to fulfill these goals, we were left with yet another instance of monoculture—in this case, one that is literally gut-wrenching. “There is good evidence that ancient grains didn’t have anything like the toxicity that current wheat does,” says Columbia’s Dr. Green.

 

So far, the medical world has only been able to pinpoint what is toxic to celiacs—namely, some of the protein compounds in modern wheat’s gluten. But that’s been enough to get people theorizing that it may be something similar bothering nonceliacs. “A lot ofpeople went in [to a Whole Grains Summit in May] wondering why allthese folks were making such a big deal about gluten, and whether the whole gluten-free thing was a fad,” Cynthia Harriman, director of Food and Nutrition Strategies for the Whole Grains Council, told me. “By the end of the conference, there seemed to be a rising concern that something is going on that we’re contributing to through our methods of breeding.”

 

Since no one is certain what that something is, experts now are digging into every possible corner of the wheat story. The first is basic nutrition. Harriman told me that although wheat in North America goes through 50 different quality assessments—to analyze factors such as yield and baking performance—“none are related to nutrition.” And studies have found that as farmers further pump up growth with fertilizers, nutrients tend to decline. “When yield goes up, you see micronutrients like iron, zinc, and selenium go down,”Borgen told me. What grows in their place? “Starch and glutens,” he said.

 

A 2009 study out of Norway, published in the Journal of Agricultural Chemistry, identified similar changes under industrial agriculture. It found that many wheat proteins were significantly transformed by the nitrogen and sulfur in chemical fertilizers. (Modern wheat is built for chemical treatment and irrigation, but when it’s farmed under “unsupplemented,” organic conditions, itsperformance falls—roughly matching a few preindustrial varieties.)

 

The modern assault on wheat extends to the industrial flour mill. Traditional stone mills grind the kernels of grain, then sift out varying amounts of bran to create differentgrades of white flour—products sometimes called “semirefined” flour. This allows the flour to retain the wheat’s germ, which houses so many of its nutrients. While some small European mills still operate this way, all but a few North American mills have taken a different course. Because growers in the United States have increasingly adopted harder wheats, millers now tend to smash the grain with steel hammers or rollers. Then, to create white flour (still the market leader), they toss the bran and germ into separate piles, leaving only the starchy center for the consumer.

 

Today, when a whole-wheat order comes into a roller mill, the staff simply puts the bran and germ back into the white flour and ships it off. Most experts say this process of “recombining” wheat’s parts makes no difference. But others aren’ tconvinced. “It’s like disassembling a car, then putting all theparts in a bowl and saying it’s a car,” said Mark Shigenaga, Ph.D., a scientist at CHORI who specializes in digestive issues.

 

Craig Ponsford is also skeptical. An internationally renowned baker in San Rafael, California, he told me that he continuallygets customers who can’t handle bread made with standard flour and yet do fine on his loaves, which are baked withun separated, 100 percent whole-wheat flour. As evidence that it’s the flour, not the process, that gets the credit, Ponsford said that he hears the same stories about his pasta, which endures no fermentation and is made with the same unseparated flour. Ponsford buys his flour from Joe Vanderliet, the proprietor of Certified Foods, a mill in Woodland, California, who is committed to the “whole-milled” process and stonegrindsmuch of his flour.

 

In fairness, many stone mills lose their share of nutrients,too. A literature review by an international group of grain scientists found that, when compared with hammer- and roller-milled flour, stone-ground flour typically loses more amino acids, lipids, iron, zinc, calcium, and, with some grains,even fiber. But when it comes to vitamin E—wheat germ’s primary nutrient—the stone mills excel by a factor of two to one. (One possible reason: Mills that separate out the germ have to heat it to keep the germ from turning rancid—a process that some believe inhibits the vitamin’s bio availability.)

 

The Way Forward (Or Back?)

While mountains of tough flour may be an efficacious way to feed a growing world, the cost of this approach is comingunder increasing scrutiny. “If the current system is giving people inferior food or causing genetic disorders,” bread expert Reinhart asked, “is it worth it?” Maybe the time has come for a smaller wheat supply, but one of greater diversity and quality. While global demand for grain continues toincrease, over the past century grain consumption in the U.S.has actually declined. That fact might argue for a system in which finer, heirloom grains play a more vital role.

 

Thom Leonard, a Georgia-based baker and author who hasbeen a longtime consultant to millers, believes such anarrangement has potential. Leonard has been experimenting with heirloom grains of Turkey wheat, giving them to farmers to grow in their own fields, and he continually hears accounts of people who suffer some sort of gluten sensitivity (short of celiac disease) who do fine eating his grain. Mark Nightengale, who runs Heartland Mill in Kansas, has also begun experimenting with the wheat. “With our genetic selection,”Nightengale said, “we’re beginning to wonder if wehaven’t unknowingly chosen proteins that aren’t good for us.”

 

Chad Robertson, co-owner of Tartine, a bakery in SanFrancisco, also is on the trail of the past, having spent thelast few years traipsing across Europe in pursuit of heritage wheat. “I feel like these ancient grains will be the next heirloom tomato,” Robertson told me. “A few years ago, you couldn’t find that stuff in a store. No one thought they’d sell because they’d be too expensive. Now they’re mainstream.”

 

Robertson’s early experiments suggest he might be on to something. His wife, Elisabeth Prueitt (Tartine’s other ownerand its lead pastry chef), has become gluten intolerant—enough so that she has difficulty testing her own pastries.Prueitt exhibited no symptoms during the couple’s years in France, where she ate bread constantly. (It may be no coincidence that French flour is softer than American varieties and contains weaker glutens. It is also frequently stone-ground.)But here in the States, Prueitt’s reactions are so strong that she hasn’t wanted to eat her husband’s bread, despite the fact that Robertson, like Jack Bezian, uses only natural sourdough, with a relatively long ferment. Then, a few months ago, Prueitt tried a loaf that Robertson had made with spelt and emmer—two soft, ancient wheats. She loved it and consumed nearly a pound. The next morning, no reaction. “This was pretty major, because I’ve been living with her for years with this,” Robertson told me. Prueitt has been eating the bread—occasionally, warily, but comfortably—ever since. Robertson is now working with local farmers to grow a few ancient grains. “These are my favorite breads now,” he said.

 

Back in Denmark, Borgen, too, has managed little stabs of success. Whenever he comes across promising heirloom seeds,he gives them to neighboring farmers, who surreptitiously propagate them. When Danish government officials heard about this, Borgen said, they secretly applauded his efforts to advance crop diversity. It’s enough to give you hope. I can almost imagine a day when every town has a bakery stocked with bread that anyone can eat. Just above some basic, inexpensive sourdough loaves there might be Turkey wheat baguettes, along with a few braided beauties of emmer or spelt. Kind of the way it used to be.

[Nadia]

Fantastic article, Schuyler! Thanks for posting it.

 

I'm coming into the conversation late, but I wanted to tell Enufodat that sometimes eliminating all grains entirely can lead to "die-off". That means a bunch of "bad" bacteria that was feeding off your undigested carbs now has nothing to eat and starts dying off, releasing toxins. If your body is not able to process those toxins, you can feel sick because of it. This is something to watch out for while going through withdrawal, since we're ultra-sensitive.

 

It's kind of like when you get a massage, and you can get flu-like symptoms and feel really tired, because the massage releases substances that have been accumulating in your muscle tissue.

 

The answer if you get this kind of reaction is to go slow, or if you think you can, just tough it out (but again, in withdrawal this might be more of a problem). The first month or two can also be a period of intense carb and sweet craving. Those bacteria you are starving are asking to be fed!

[alexjuice]

Been doing more dietary research. Came across a benzo question in the FAQ. Dr. NCM shares her feelings on benzos as well as other psych meds in the reply.

 

Worth a share on the forum, I thought. I don't think I've seen this posted.

 

Do you have any experience with benzodiazepines withdrawal and the GAPS diet?

 

Yes! Most psychotropic medications are addictive, though they may not be listed as such. Benzodiazepines are very addictive and need to be withdrawn slowly and carefully, and only when the body is ready to be without them. To prepare the body for the withdrawal follow the GAPS Programme for a few months. When you feel well, start reducing the dose of the drug by small increments, giving 1-2 weeks between the dose reductions.

 

If you have been taking a few drugs, start from the one which you feel will be the easiest to remove. Remove one drug at a time slowly. Many people try to remove psychotropic drugs too quickly and run into trouble: the symptoms of withdrawal of the drug may look very much like the symptoms of the disease itself, so you are likely to be put back on drugs by your doctor.

 

To help in this process I recommend boosting your neurotransmitter production: serotonine, dopamine and GABA. There are very good supplements on the market to help you with that: 5HTP for serotonine, tyrosine for dopamine and a group of amino acids for GABA. All of these substances have to come with co-factors: vitamins and minerals. The doses can be very individual, so start from half the recommended dose and gradually increase to find your comfort zone. Get to the full dose of these supplements first before starting to withdraw the drugs.

 

http://gapsdiet.com/uploads/FAQS_Listing.pdf

 

In other news about GAPS, I reworking my diet but it's been a bugger. One problem I've nailed down is I am reacting to yeast/mold and ferments have been counterproductive I have finally found. I am being treated for stachybotrys mold exposure which explains my reaction. I'd recommend healthy fermented whole foods to others.

 

EDIT: I am passing along, not endorsing, NCM's recommendations.

[Phil]

For anyone here who has gone gluten free/dairy free, this might be worth a read:

 

http://nutritionaltherapy.com/the-storm-before-the-calm-why-some-people-get-temporarily-worse-on-a-gluten-free-or-casein-free-diet/

 

I'm not sure exactly how reliable it is but I thought it interesting how she mentions serotonin being involved in gut function.

I never realized that giving up gluten could cause any withdrawal type reactions.

 

Not everyone is sensitive to gluteomorphin and casomorphin, but it does explain why some people, like Holly, get worse before they get better. These opioid-like effects are also believed to reduce gut mobility and cause constipation. Four days into a GFCF diet, one woman’s son had a bowel movement without the aid of medication for the first time in nine years. Mysteriously, however, other people become constipated when they give up gluten or casein. For Holly, it got so bad she remembers eating some wheat bread for relief. Vojdani suspects that because opioid effects tinker with serotonin metabolism, a serotonin deficiency may be at work. “Ninety-five percent of our body’s serotonin is found in the gut, and it’s an important neurotransmitter for digestive health and function,” says Vojdani.

 

 

[Nadia]

Interesting article, Phil. Thanks for posting. I think I definetely crave sweets in the form of cakes as a drug. The times when I've felt the best during withdrawal I have eaten bread and cake, but I don't think it is ideal. I wonder if I did SCD for 6 months if I could get off the merry go round. Right now I eat only occasional grains, but I crave them often.

[GiaK]

now that I don't eat grains at all anymore...I have virtually no food cravings whatsoever...

 

I also have not over-eaten in years...I love food so that's darn amazing...

 

I used to over-eat with some frequency (not like an eating disorder, but you know, getting stuffed or whatever on occasion)

 

NEVER HAPPENS anymore...I still eat delicious food...I'm a good cook, but I don't crave anything

[Skyler]

now that I don't eat grains at all anymore...I have virtually no food cravings whatsoever...

 

I also have not over-eaten in years...I love food so that's darn amazing...

 

I used to over-eat with some frequency (not like an eating disorder, but you know, getting stuffed or whatever on occasion)

 

NEVER HAPPENS anymore...I still eat delicious food...I'm a good cook, but I don't crave anything

 

I'm was not on a Paleo Diet, but my experience was similar to Gia's with extreme low carbs. I lost 60 lbs in the past year with a very low carb diet (the diet was of my own design, but based on much reading). Within a few days of cutting way back on carbs the cravings mercifully stopped. They turned off so abruptly it was almost like throwing a switch. Of note, I'm on Lyrica, which ramps up my appetite but lost nevertheless.

 

I still have to monitor carbs carefully because cravings are wont to creep right back in. Carbs are a big trap IMHO and I will be a low carb diet for life.. not because of gluten issues, but out of a deep respect for their addictive power!

[GiaK]

I thought I'd share my latest (re) post here as it's on topic...

 

Minding Your Mitochondria: heal chronic illness with diet

http://beyondmeds.com/2012/11/09/minding-your-mitochondria/

[BentBuddha]

I personally have a case of very bad leaky gut and has caused all sorts of problems all through my life including a congested liver, rashes, food sensitivities and chronic fatigue syndrome. After learning about GAPS diet and Body Ecology diet from these two women, instantly i suspected this is why my brain had such a hard time with recovering from the drugs. This is a great video:

https-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLP0Ijo2CK4

 

[GiaK]

there is a section on this board devoted to GAPS and other similar diets. Many of us have found this to be a factor in our well-being, yes.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/890-scdgapspaleo-diets/

 

there are many other posts that deal with gluten and grain sensitivities etc as well.

[alexjuice]

I bought the new edition of the Perfect Health Diet book. I've read it and endorse it.

 

An excerpt from their blog:

 

Cooperating with Our Bodies to Build Health

 

The earliest human temptation, if we are to believe the story of the Garden of Eden, was to “be as gods” and define good and evil — healthful and unhealthful — for ourselves. There is an undoubted attraction, we have felt it ourselves, to masterminding our diet and nutrition. We like to think that evolution got it wrong, or optimized for the wrong thing, and that an extreme diet or unnatural intervention can improve our health.

 

It’s not just extreme dieters who think this way. What is the pharmaceutical model of medicine, but the idea that we can alter the natural functioning of our bodies in ways that will make us healthier?

 

Sometimes this can work, but usually wisdom and deeper knowledge show us that evolution got it right, that our innate biology works to maintain our health rather than harm it, and that interventions which subvert natural functions tend to do more harm than good.

 

A more promising approach, we think, is to cooperate with our bodies. This leaves plenty of room for medicine to help – through diagnosis and testing, through antimicrobial treatments, through integrated dietary and lifestyle advice, and through interventions that support natural bodily functions (as, for instance, thyroid hormone replacement in hypothyroidism, or insulin therapy in type 1 diabetes).

 

It’s this cooperative approach, integrating the best of medicine with the best ancestral health practices, that we think will be most effective at generating good health and long life. We hope our book will illuminate what those “best ancestral health practices” are, and help build a cooperative effort between the natural health movement and the medical community.

 

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2012/12/whats-new-in-the-new-edition-i-evolutionary-dieting/

[Annie3]

That's awesome! I have that on order right now too. Weird. I find I do better on a ketogenic type diet and have started eating like this again after being on carbs and sugars again for awhile. This diet seems a little healthier than a keto diet. Keep me updated on how it works for you.

[GiaK]

If GAPs is problematic for you...you may want to rule out histamine issues...ferments are very high histamine...

 

this is why GAPS was not good for me...took me a good 2 years to figure it out...oh well...

 

Histamine intolerance (new discovery, likely to apply to others on psych meds and coming off them too)

[alexjuice]

This is an interesting finding. I am excited to hear you feeling excited about experimenting with the diet. Please keep the updates coming.

 

Alex

[Wingbatty]

I am wondering if enufodat stayed gluten free & what difference (if any!) it made.

 

Adding to the convo: A good percentage of celiacs do not have symptoms YET - that they are aware of - but have auto-immune problems that will get worse over time. Some find out they have Celiac's when they develop bowel cancer.

 

My gluten problems were severe, and despite being told multiple times I had immune system problems, it was never explored by any western doctor. One doctor went so far as to say "you have autoimmune problems that begin in your gut" but never suggested Celiac.

[Phil]

I've come to a similar conclusion myself, GiaK. I feel my best when I barely eat anything, which is crazy but true. I couldn't understand why. I came across histamine intolerance and thought it sounded a plausible explanation.

I've had some much better days recently, but the downside is that I've been very hungry and lost a lot of weight. Like you I'm still figuring out what I can and can't eat.

 

There's a discussion about histamines here you might find interesting: http://glutenfreeguerrillas.healthunlocked.com/questions/11297/Histamine-problems-causing-rashes-stomach-acid-fatigue

[GiaK]

thanks Phil...I'm finding lots of people in my broad networks that are resonating with this info too. Some of my long-term protracted withdrawal friends...I am going to try to collect people's experiences one way or another...if we all respond positively to cutting down histamines it would be quite something.

 

yeah, finding food to eat is tough...

 

what are you eating? we need to start a thread...oh...I do have a thread here:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3503-histamine-intolerance/page__p__39471__fromsearch__1#entry39471

 

better to have this conversation there I guess...I need to learn how to move threads...I've still not managed to do that.

[Jemima]

I hear you, W.B. I had my first attack of Celiac when I was in my middle to late twenties. It was misdiagnosed then and time and again afterward as IBS. In my early sixties I picked up a book on nutrition to read during the evenings while at a work conference where there was nothing to do but go to bars, read, or sleep after we were dismissed. The author explained why wheat is now a big problem for a lot of people (mainly genetic engineering for increased protein levels) and the symptoms he described were exactly what I'd had for three decades.

 

So I decided I could live without wheat for a month and see what happened. What happened was that within three days my "IBS" symptoms were gone and they have stayed gone as long as I adhere to a gluten-free diet.

 

I'm not sure how much that has had to do with depression, although I don't remember any serious depressions after that until taking Lipitor caught up with me and nearly killed me and made me want to die as well.

[alexjuice]

Gaps Update/REview

 

I've abandoned the GAPS diet. I do find a lot of the principles healthful -- whole food, gut repair, broths and soups, others -- but I've realized it does not work for me nor will it likely benefit anyone else suffering from issues like mine.

 

For instnace, I am suffering from intestinal infection by fungus and a protozoal organism. I have reacted extremely poorly, erractically even to the GAPS recommendations and have subsequently discovered that high fat intake worsens both (as both are eukaryotic organisms that are able to metabolize fats).

 

And I've found many of the fundamental ideas in disagreement with my experience. Chicken fat, according to many non-GAPs sources is an inflammatory animal fat and drinking unskimmed cups of fatty chicken broth/stock is not necessarily wise. I also believe nut flours and nut butters present the same problem. Of course, in moderation neither are an issue, but from reading the GAPS Yahoo it's clear that people on GAPS devour tons of nuts (butters, flours, oils, etc) and chicken fat.

 

At times in the past, I've thought the diet a little overzealous. Dr McBride really fears fluoride, microwave ovens... things like this. She also endorses enemas and medicinal enemas (with garlic or coffee) as well as homemade ferments. These are not my main issues with the diet though. I also understand the rationale for supporting this stuff generally.

 

So, for anyone going through withdrawal and looking to change their diet, I would have to warn you from the GAPS diet itself while recommending a number of it's cornerstone principles. Specifically, I think the ideas of gut dysbiosis and toxic food and drug avoidance are very very valuable. I find I eat very, very differently from how I ate a couple of years ago. GAPS diet first introduced many of these ideas to me. However, I think the absence of significant carboyhdrate will be problematic, especially for people who are coming off serotonergic medication.

 

That's been my experience after 18 months of pretty drastic dietary experimentation.

 

Here's a test I think might help to see if a person is a good candidate for GAPS. Try a few tablespoons of MCT oil over a few hours, eating nothing else. MCT oil is entirely short/medium chain fats and doesn't require pancreatic or biliary interaction for digestion. I tried this not long ago and got terribly ill, confirming presence of pathogens, but many feel terrific doing this. In fact it may benefit the brain by inducing ketosis and nourishing neurons. Since this test gave such a clear response for me, maybe others will find the same benefit. There is no risk in taking a few hundred calories of MCT oil.

 

Overall, I've been shocked by the importance of nutrition in my overall health and recovery. I think 2nd to starting mass Drugs, it's the most important factor in my well being and I suspect others are in this boat with me. I am working hard to bridge gaps in my knowledge and create a nutritional protocol that assists my healing best.

 

best of luck,

Alex

[bruno2016]

i have been on GAPS for a month and havent noticed any major improvements. i will start working with a GAPS practitioner soon because I have had some slip ups like eating things i shouldnt. The carb and sugar cravings get pretty bad. Also, I need to find a way to make this diet more affordable and easier because I spend a lot of money on raw milk, grass fed meats, and organic produce. I also cook a lot and am getting tired.

[Roads]

Diet is an extremely delicate issue with me. I've even indulged in eating disorder, and still have pathological trends. I need to find a stable and healthy way of eating. I work with cron o meter, and this is extremely hard to meet all the dietary needs when you do not eat gluten nor dairy. I do not do GAPS, because I don't like radical diets (biggest joke I could ever made, believe me), am wary of high-fat diets, and prefer rely on century-long proving diets (I don't judge GAPS, I may miss something), like the mediterranean diet.

I am a fervent believer in gluten harmfulness, but I am less sure about dairy, which is far more difficult to replace than gluten, nutritionally speaking. What is your conviction and experience about dairy consumption and/or avoidance?

[alexjuice]

Diet is an extremely delicate issue with me. I've even indulged in eating disorder, and still have pathological trends. I need to find a stable and healthy way of eating. I work with cron o meter, and this is extremely hard to meet all the dietary needs when you do not eat gluten nor dairy. I do not do GAPS, because I don't like radical diets (biggest joke I could ever made, believe me), am wary of high-fat diets, and prefer rely on century-long proving diets (I don't judge GAPS, I may miss something), like the mediterranean diet.

I am a fervent believer in gluten harmfulness, but I am less sure about dairy, which is far more difficult to replace than gluten, nutritionally speaking. What is your conviction and experience about dairy consumption and/or avoidance?

 

My experience is that most tradional foods and food preparations are healthful. Generally very little of the standard processed fare is prepared with heathfulness in mind but, obviously, with tastefulness.

 

How do you define 'radical'? Relative to the history of humanity, the current standard american diet is extremely radical.

 

What nutrients are you unable to get unless you eat dairy? I can't really eat dairy right now. I do eat liver, mostly chicken as red meat livers are high in copper, for vitamin A and choline. I eat sardines and greens for calcium. I also supplement vitamin D and vitamin k. I supplement choline also. (I supplement a few things, but cautiously!)

 

I can't think of what else is specific to dairy?

 

GAPS is probably a good diet in many cases but definitely not all. I really like the Perfect health Diet book by Drs Jaminet.

 

Here's something Paul Jaminet said on his blog's Q&A in response to question about dysbiosis and potatoes which touches on the GAPS diet.

 

Basically, our diet is designed to be optimally nourishing for the body as a whole, and to reshape the gut flora in a positive direction. If you have a healthy gut flora, you will be able to eat all the foods we recommend and our diet should improve the composition of the gut flora further over time.

 

In bowel disorders, some of the foods we normally recommend are likely to prove troublesome. They will feed pathogens in the gut. So a restricted / modified diet is necessary. More emphasis is placed on re-shaping the gut flora by starving the pathogens and providing/supporting replacement flora; if necessary some nourishment may need to be sacrificed until the gut flora normalizes.

 

GAPS and SCD embody a lot of lore about what restricted / modified diets are likely to work in most cases of bowel disease. Often, starches have to be restricted, because they commonly provide significant amounts of food to gut flora (and pathogens, if they are dominant).

 

However, there is a tremendous diversity of pathogens, and it’s not necessarily the case that very low carb diets are optimal. Glucose is supportive of immune and gut function. Usually sugars are better than starches in colonic disorders, since they are absorbed in the small intestine and provide less food to colonic pathogens. However, I recommend glucose-only sugars, such as dextrose or rice syrup or tapioca syrup, rather than fructose-containing sugars like honey.

 

In bowel disorders I tend to favor a systematic approach of diagnosing the gut pathogens with stool tests such as the Metametrix DNA GI Effects profile, treating the pathogens with specific antimicrobial drugs as well as providing replacement flora with probiotics and fermented foods (in extreme cases, fecal transplants), and modifying the diet to starve the pathogens and minimize symptoms. I think GAPS and SCD provide a lot of tips on how to achieve those last two steps, but you have to keep in mind that those tips are not universally applicable (maybe 90% applicable), and judge whether they are working in your case.

 

In regard to potatoes specifically, I think they are excellent for feeding probiotic flora and clearing toxins, but can also feed pathogens. Thus, while the bowel dysbiosis is severe you may benefit from avoiding them, but should restore them in small quantities as things get better, so that they can nourish a population of beneficial flora. Over time, gradually increase the amount you eat. When you can eat them in large quantities, you are likely cured.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Best, Paul

 

I think the Jaminet's site is a great resource and I've recommended it on this forum. I think if you want to spend some time reading about nutrition, that's a good place to start w/ all the citations and interesting discussion in the comments.

 

I'm not an expert on nutrition. I have ailments and have discovered what I eat affects those ailments. Thus I spend a lot of time making sense of the interactions I experience.

 

best,

Alex

 

PS - The GAPS/Paleo line on dairy is that dairy fat is generally very good but that dairy protein can be problematic esp in people with damaged intestines/autoimmune diseases. Usually ghee (which has no dairy proteins or sugars) is most well tolerated. After this is fermented dairy -- homemade yogurt/kefir. After this is raw milk. Then is pasteurized milk. This is as I have gathered it, please research further.

[Roads]

Thanks a lot for for the site.

 

What I find hard to replace as dairy nutrient is calcium. Even with sardins, greens, almonds, figs I hardly match half of the daily recomendations. But maybe these are overrated... Anyway, I meant hard for me, when everything is overwhelming and difficult, I find it hard to design a healty diets when avoiding things. I didn't mean that dairy was irrepleceable.

[Outshined]

Sorry but this diet is takes it a little too far. I can understand the elimination of gluten (there is some evidence, although not strictly scientific, that it could be bad even for non-celiacs) but potatoes and milk (unless of course you're lactose intolerant)? Sorry but I don't buy that at all.

[GiaK]

lots of people are intolerant of milk...and it often has nothing to do with lactose at all...casein is a much bigger issue for many people....

 

there is very good evidence to support this diet for some people and some people respond very very well.

 

Whether it's appropriate for you or not is another thing entirely.

[BentBuddha]

It's basically the food we ate for 99% of our evolution so I don't see it as radical. Our genes would be still wired for it surely

[Narcissus]

It's basically the food we ate for 99% of our evolution so I don't see it as radical. Our genes would be still wired for it surely

 

 

^What he said.

 

I'm trying the Paleo diet. Too early still to weigh in on it.