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Kavinace, phenibut, or Phenyl GABA for sleep


Altostrata
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AKA  phenylbutyric acid, β-phenyl-γ-aminobutyric acid, fenibut, phenybut

 

Note: Gamma-aminobutyric acid is simply GABA. It is a different molecule. It does not cross the blood-brain barrier.

 

Phenibut is a synthetic GABA analog that crosses the blood-brain barrier. Popular among recreational drug users, it is a "nootropic" sold as a dietary supplement in the US but not approved as a drug.

Phenibut binds to the GABA-B receptor (and may bind to the GABA-A receptor as well, like benzodiazepines, barbiturates, and Z-drugs for sleep). In its action, phenibut is similar to a drug called baclofen.

 

Its effect is sedative. The action is similar to baclofen, a prescription drug.

Quite frequently, phenibut is prescribed as a very expensive NeuroScience-brand supplement called Kavinace, which also contains vitamin B6 and taurine. Use search on this site to see others' experience with it.

 

(SurvivingAntidepressants does not endorse NeuroScience's testing or its supplements.)

 

As with benzos and other neurologically active drugs, tapering is required if you use phenibut regularly. Its withdrawal syndrome is very similar to a benzo withdrawal syndrome, with sleeplessness being prominent.
 
Sensitized nervous systems may experience a paradoxical reaction to phenibut. Sample a very, very small amount before taking it.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenibut

 

http://www.raysahelian.com/phenibut.html

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11830761

 

https://drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Phenibut

 

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/648402-Phenibut-info

 

http://nootropicsreview.org/is-phenibut-legal/

Edited by Altostrata
updated

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • 2 months later...
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Recently, I had a friend taking trazodone for sleep. She was very uneasy about taking the drug and tapered off fairly quickly with no apparent problems, but then had to deal with her sleep problem.

 

She want to an integrative doctor who prescribed Kavinace. Believing it was an herbal remedy, she was happily taking it. She found it quite effective, delivering better sleep than trazodone.

 

She was shocked when I told her it contained a drug, phenibut, which would have to be tapered. (See Why taper by 10% of my dosage? )

 

I talked to a psychiatrist knowledgeable about such things and he confirmed that phenibut delivered better sleep quality than trazodone -- he didn't think much of trazodone -- and would have to be tapered. He said it was weaker than a benzo and wouldn't be as difficult to go off, but he had seen that phenibut definitely had a mean withdrawal syndrome.

 

Phenibut or Phenyl GABA is available on the Web for much less than you would pay for Kavinace.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • 1 year later...

Phenibut works primarily on the gaba b receptor whereas, benzos, work on gaba a receptors. I've taken both and would not compare in terms of strength but quality or effect. Benzos tend to dull you cognitively during the daytime, some are good for sleep (lorazepam) and effect short term memory after taking them for awhile. Tolerance is an issue and they can be difficult to discontinue.

 

Phenibut has a nootropic quality in that it can enhance mental functioning. Except for feeling better, it's easy to not even know it's effecting you... until you close you eyes to sleep or when you wake up in the night return easily to sleep. I take it one or two times a week to avoid tolerance build up. I wish I could take it nightly since phenibut nights are the best!

 

There is a product, Gabatrol, which has phenyl-gaba as one of it's ingredients. Some sources say it's the same as phenibut and others say "It's a form of phenibut."

 

I would be very careful about this supplement since building tolerance if it is identical to phenibut could be nasty.

 

If anyone knows the true answer to , "Is phenyl-gaba the same as phenibut?", I would love to know.

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  • 2 months later...
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I just got "prescribed" Phenibut.  It is legal here in Australia, but my compounding chemist couldn't get it, probably because of its drug status in the EU.

 

So I ordered a bottle from the USA.

 

I cannot "feel" a thing.  But its' been a stressful week, and I have had 3 nights of 11-13 hours of sleep, meaning I am not feeling very productive.

 

I'm not surprised that it needs tapering, as - it crosses the blood brain barrier, hits the neurotransmitters. 

 

So much for taking it as prescribed.... (she wants me taking 2x700 mg nightly.  I've been taking 1x650 mg nightly)

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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30 minutes ago, JanCarol said:

I just got "prescribed" Phenibut.  It is legal here in Australia, but my compounding chemist couldn't get it, probably because of its drug status in the EU.

 

So I ordered a bottle from the USA.

 

I cannot "feel" a thing.  But its' been a stressful week, and I have had 3 nights of 11-13 hours of sleep, meaning I am not feeling very productive.

 

I'm not surprised that it needs tapering, as - it crosses the blood brain barrier, hits the neurotransmitters. 

 

So much for taking it as prescribed.... (she wants me taking 2x700 mg nightly.  I've been taking 1x650 mg nightly)

 

 

I'm confused (but then I often am, LOL)

why were you Rxed this JanCarol?

was it to help you sleep? is that why you slept 11-13 hrs?

 

 

 

 
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3 minutes ago, Happy2Heal said:

I'm confused (but then I often am, LOL)

why were you Rxed this JanCarol?

was it to help you sleep? is that why you slept 11-13 hrs?

 

 

I have severe delayed cycle sleep.  I am not sleepy or even tired at 4 am.  I usually get to sleep by 6 am, and sleep till noon - 1:30 pm.  Really wrecks my day and well being if I have an appointment or want to get something done in the daytime.

 

I have chronic pain - which is diagnosed by other doctors as "fibromyalgia," but which is a combination of structural pain and tendonitis-all-over when my thyroid levels are wrong - which happens anytime I'm stressed.

So she gave it to calm me down, to possibly get through the cortisol spike at 2-4 am, maybe help me to sleep through some of the worst of the heart rhythm stuff.  I call it "putting the badger to sleep."  (see my thread)

 

I also spent a day at the hospital with hubby, attended a class and taught a class this week.  There are always multiple factors - I can't isolate the Phenibut as the cause for the long sleep because I am also very tired from all the stress.  I want to do a thread update but I'm too tired!  :o

 

As far as insomnia - I have been falling asleep earlier on the Phenibut.  But now I find I shouldn't take it every night, or I'll develop tolerance and addiction.  :huh:

 

But I haven't figured out how I should take it!  Very little info about this supplement other than people who use it recreationally, or as a nootropic.  And they are not worried about neurotransmitters or tapering!

 

And here I am - midnight - usually my "peak time" and my head is fuzzy and I'm not engaging well.  So - back to bed with me.  

 

I could probably use the rest!

 

 

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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On 3/30/2017 at 3:11 PM, ADDaptogen said:

Phenibut works primarily on the gaba b receptor whereas, benzos, work on gaba a receptors. I've taken both and would not compare in terms of strength but quality or effect. Benzos tend to dull you cognitively during the daytime, some are good for sleep (lorazepam) and effect short term memory after taking them for awhile. Tolerance is an issue and they can be difficult to discontinue.

 

Phenibut has a nootropic quality in that it can enhance mental functioning. Except for feeling better, it's easy to not even know it's effecting you... until you close you eyes to sleep or when you wake up in the night return easily to sleep. I take it one or two times a week to avoid tolerance build up. I wish I could take it nightly since phenibut nights are the best!

 

There is a product, Gabatrol, which has phenyl-gaba as one of it's ingredients. Some sources say it's the same as phenibut and others say "It's a form of phenibut."

 

I would be very careful about this supplement since building tolerance if it is identical to phenibut could be nasty.

 

If anyone knows the true answer to , "Is phenyl-gaba the same as phenibut?", I would love to know.

 

Hmmm.  Interesting.  Is Gabatrol like "Neurotin" or the same as it?  I can probably look it up later and find out.  It's been awhile, in fact it was years ago when I took generic "Neurotin" and had a parodoxical reaction.........a woah nellie, highly fearful time complete with spider hallucinations.  Oh yah.......Neurotin is Gabapentin me thinks. 

 

So yes......there is that........perhaps unrelated to this topic.........I'll do my research.  Solly if I left everyone confused.  I'm no expert.

 

Rest well JanCarol.........yes, life is busy for me now........and thankfully will take a quieter day today for myself.

 

Love, peace, rest, growth, etc........

mmt

2022 May- continuing with limited activity on site, just something I need to do right now

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016.  And.....I quit smoking 11/2021. Lapsed.  Redo of quit smoking 9/28/2022.  Can you say Hallelujah?(took me long enough)💜

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider. manymoretodays

 

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Hi JC-- sorry to hear about the "problems" DH is having, I'm so glad they're clearing up.  I've had some pretty serious pain in my time, but that's one I really want to avoid. 

 

I did some research on the Phenibut.  Looks like you found much of the same stuff I did.  I'd be really careful of the stuff.  It may be helpful, but there seems to be a pretty big price tag attached.  The nootropic people make it hard to get any good information on things.  They are so one sided in their excitement over "enhanced brain power" that they over look the more serious problems attached.  I didn't like the idea of tolerance in a few weeks, dependence just a quick and WD akin to Benzos.  Please be really careful with this one.

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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Thanks Brass.  I'm shocked that my orthomolecular doc seems to think this is "safe" and - I even talked to my compounding chemist (he's a Mr. Natural kind of guy) and he couldn't find anything wrong with it.

 

With both of them, I specifically asked if it would "fiddle my neurotransmitters," and they both denied it!  I also asked about tolerance and addiction, and they both said, "safe, not a problem."

 

Now I have to extract myself from this thing safely.

 

At least I'm sleeping well?  I swore I would never "play in nootropics" because I don't like the research quality there - all these excited people and no long term information!

MMT - Gabatrol, Phenibut, GABA are not related to the "gabapentin, pregabalin" drugs.  I am not smart enough to know the difference, but it is my understanding - after what I've learned - that Gabatrol and Phenibut are more closely related to a benzo!!!!!!  Egads.

 

Now I have to decide - if the Phenibut does what doc want it to do - is it better or worse than a beta blocker?  Because that's where I'm headed in "mainstream medicine" world...

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Better or worse than a beta blocker.......good question.  Also am thinking that at one time I did wind up with some Gabagabababaga(!) something besides the gabapentin.......perhaps it was Gabatrol??  I'm still sorting through the years and dates on any old scripts and non scripts.  Only guessing......but hopeful that my "non-compliance" saved me from a few additional temporary(hopefully) insults and subsequent recoveries.

 

Helpful stuff......it really is.......going forward and learning and knowing what "I might" consider or not.  Egads indeed!

 

Love, mmt

2022 May- continuing with limited activity on site, just something I need to do right now

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016.  And.....I quit smoking 11/2021. Lapsed.  Redo of quit smoking 9/28/2022.  Can you say Hallelujah?(took me long enough)💜

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider. manymoretodays

 

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Hi ADDaptogen--  welcome to SA.  All new members first posts are automatically placed under review by the moderation staff.  At first glance your post will not be approved.  The purpose of this site is to help people SAFELY get off of psychotropic drugs.  We do not make recommendations of new drugs to take or espouse the virtues of various cocktails. Nor do we approve the "recreational" use of nootropics.  Several of the drugs you mention would be very detrimental to people going through the WD process. 

 

I did some quick research on the drug "oxi".  I truly hope you're not taking the drug I found information on.  OXI is the currently fashionable variation of  cocaine mixed with gasoline and quick lime, is HIGHLY addictive, dangerous, and flat out illegal. Recommending its use here is one of the fastest ways to get yourself banned from the site.

 

If you really are interested in getting free from psych drugs, then please start an introduction thread so we can get to know you and discus how you should proceed.

 

Brassmonkey

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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  • 1 month later...

I am still in withdrawal from phenibut, I took it for 8 months almost everyday 3gr, I quitted it CT and now 11 months later I'm still symptomatic... I used to combine it with a caffeine pill because it made the working stronger. Wish I never took this... I initially took it for better sleep when I worked the nightshift, but the effects of relaxation and the condidence it gave me, made me take it almost daily, not knowing it could do anything bad.

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  • 8 months later...

I just learned from this wonderful group that akathisia won’t relent while one is taking gabapentin (aka neurontin). Does anyone know if this also applies to phenibut, which is another form of gaba? Thank you.

1992 Prozac 60 mg - on and off since, currently on 60mg

2000 Gabapentin 600-3600, currently on 1200mg

January, 2014 Oxycodone 10-40mg, currently 30mg

March, 2012  Cortef 15mg

March, 2012 Liothyronine 110mcg

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Please do a site search on phenibut as there are a number of posts saying not to use it and why.

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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  • 1 year later...
On 6/14/2017 at 9:05 AM, JanCarol said:

 

I have severe delayed cycle sleep.  I am not sleepy or even tired at 4 am.  I usually get to sleep by 6 am, and sleep till noon - 1:30 pm.  Really wrecks my day and well being if I have an appointment or want to get something done in the daytime.

 

I have chronic pain - which is diagnosed by other doctors as "fibromyalgia," but which is a combination of structural pain and tendonitis-all-over when my thyroid levels are wrong - which happens anytime I'm stressed.

So she gave it to calm me down, to possibly get through the cortisol spike at 2-4 am, maybe help me to sleep through some of the worst of the heart rhythm stuff.  I call it "putting the badger to sleep."  (see my thread)

 

I also spent a day at the hospital with hubby, attended a class and taught a class this week.  There are always multiple factors - I can't isolate the Phenibut as the cause for the long sleep because I am also very tired from all the stress.  I want to do a thread update but I'm too tired!  :o

 

As far as insomnia - I have been falling asleep earlier on the Phenibut.  But now I find I shouldn't take it every night, or I'll develop tolerance and addiction.  :huh:

 

But I haven't figured out how I should take it!  Very little info about this supplement other than people who use it recreationally, or as a nootropic.  And they are not worried about neurotransmitters or tapering!

 

And here I am - midnight - usually my "peak time" and my head is fuzzy and I'm not engaging well.  So - back to bed with me.  

 

I could probably use the rest!

 

 

Hi JanCarol,

 

I saw your mention of severe delayed sleep cycle.  I am the exact opposite.  All my life I haven't been able to stay up much past 9 pm and I've always been up by 5 am.  Since my diagnosis with "fibromyalgia" I developed an extremely early circadian clock.  I'm a bit improved now but I'm still up by 3 most mornings.  

1994  Venlafaxine XR 300mg, 2003 tapered, 2004 off briefly back to 37.5 then 75mg, held, June 2019 up to  150mg, Aug.12 tapered down to 112.5mgs, Oct. 21, 2019 96mg;  Dec. 8, 2019  90mg, Jan. 8 2020 81mg, Feb. 4, 75mg;

2003/2004? Diazepam 10mg/bedtime

2013 Lyrica 300mg to 25mg; April 6, 2020 17mg; April 28, <5mg; May 7, 2020 Lyrica 0 mg!

2013 Tramadol 50mg tablets, 200mg/day divided

2005? Trazodone 50mg bedtime, Feb. 12, 2020 40mg, March 7, 25mg; Oct 1 20mg

2009? Zolpidem 5mg at bedtime. Nov. 9, 2019 Zolpidem 0 mg! 

1990? Omeprazole 20mg in morning.

2010? Levothyroxine 75mcg morning

2011? Liothyronine 5mcg morning

1999? Buspirone 30mg twice a day  August 2019 15mg once a day,  Oct.21, 2019 2.5mg evening  Oct. 25, 2019 Buspirone 0 mg!

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1 hour ago, drugged said:

All my life I haven't been able to stay up much past 9 pm and I've always been up by 5 am. 

 

This is within the normal pattern for sleep cycle -- nightfall to dawn.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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