Vonnegutjunky: Paxil 10 mg for 8 years - partial wean with reinstatement

[Vonnegutjunky]

So here I am 7 months later - after an unsuccessful partial taper last December - from may 2014 - December 2014 I went from 10mg - 5mg ; in January I went back to 10 mg- I never stabilized on that so in an attempt to stabilize I went up to 20mg 2 mos ago-

 

I mean for 7 mos I have not been functional- I lost my job and almost admitted myself into a psych unit - I am on the verge of losing my home because I cannot function properly - when I increased my dose to 20 mg 2 mos ago I was hopeful that I would stabilize and then switch to Prozac and then taper off -

but when I increased my dose the day after I had horrible ear ringing, numbness physically and emotionally, I felt spaced out, like a zombie, could not concentrate - that lasted for about 6-7 weeks- that has finally passed and for about a week I thought I was stabilizing, but about 5 days ago I got horrible anxiety that stays all day and a horrible depressed feeling - I mean so dark some times all I can do is stare into space -

I see my doctor on Thursday - I have no idea what to do at this point - I don't know if I should continue on the 20 and try to see if I stabilize or switch? I don't want to continue switching up things- I started 1200mg of fish oil today - I am doing one at a time as alto has advised on the forums - (fish oils has never bothered me in the past)

any suggestions would be welcome- should I stay at the 20 and try to stabilize? Give it more time? Or switch to Prozac on Thursday? Also I am seeing a therapist now so she is helping too- another question- would generalized anxiety and using the restroom often (stomach cramps) be evidence of akathisia? I'm worried I have this now -

I just don't know how to get stable again feeling. Desperate ????

[LoveandLight]

Oh I'm sorry to hear you've had such a bad time.

 

Im9 months now after reinstatement and I'm not stable either. It's so difficult to know what to do.

 

Hopefully someone else with more experience will be able to give advice.

[Vonnegutjunky]

Thanks love - can I ask what your plans are?

[bluebalu86]

Hey honey

 

Unfortunately I don't know enough about drugs and can't advise you what to do regarding your meds situation, but I'm here to support you if you even need me. You are not alone, I know exactly how you feel. I hope you find stability and see better days soon. I hope and pray we all do. Hugs and kisses

[bluebalu86]

If I was in your place, I wouldn't switch to Prozac. I would stay on the 20 mg - like you said, switching things up causes more confusion for the nervous system and further destabilization. You've had some good days which means you will likely have them again. 

 

Regarding the akathisia - it's more than just anxiety. I don't have it yet, but I've read that it's a feeling like you've had 100 coffees, "anxiety on steroids", or a feeling like electricity is running through your body and you have to move around all the time and pace to get a slight relief. So I don't think you have that. 

[Vonnegutjunky]

Thank you blue - I am so desperate riight now - on the verge of losing everything - ????

[oskcajga]

I don't see how continuing to take the medication that damaged you  (20mg is not a low dose) is a prudent way to move forward.  The way I would think if I were in your situation is this:  If I'm not functional ON the medication, I might as well just taper down and get off and be functional OFF the medication.  At least being off the medication your brain has an opportunity to heal over time.

 

I think that any taper has a risk of being unsuccesful - there's going to be pain and misery, psycosis, anxiety, nubness, etc, no matter what - and once you've gone down once, your brain may not respond the same way the second time (as you have found out).

 

So my suggestion would be to get off the medication, start tapering again and don't go back up, no matter what. It's frustrating to have lost all this time by going back up after beign soooo close to being off (5mg) but this is the situation you're in and you don't have any choice but to move forward.

 

Doctor won't be able to help you.  I mean what could he possible do?  Switch you over to some other SSRI or SNRI?  Add a new medication?  The physiological issues caused by paxil aren't going to be fixable through any conventional medical means.  There's no pill you can take that's suddenly going to make you "functional" again.  You could try something like adderall, but then you have to get off another medication - and you're still getting the problems from paxil.   There's nothing I can think of that will help you that won't just be putting a blanket over a fire.  The problem is paxil and you need to divorce your brain from this neurotoxic chemical once and for all.

 

I'm really sorry that you're in this situation, but if you start tapering you will have more clarity of mind and be able to function better (i.e., pay your bills).

 

Currently if you're in danger of losing your home, perhaps you know of an understanding friend or family member who can take over your payments for a couple of months if you decide to taper?  Ask for help from anyone - get money from your family - do what ever you have to to keep your house and stay on top of your credit. 

 

So my suggestion is this:  Taper again, and this time don't go back up - no matter how hard things get.  You know now from experience that reinstating is not going to help.

[bluebalu86]

I'm so sorry honey. Do you live alone? Is there anyone around you to support you through this? How do you spend your days? Are you able to take basic care for yourself - sleep, prepare meals and eat, bathe? I read that you have trouble eating. But eating is important honey, you should try to eat even if you don't feel like it. Tiny bits regularly. I also don't want to eat when I feel bad, so I know how it is. I buy from the pharmacy liquid food for sick people who are bed bound. It's basically nutrients and vitamins in the form of a liquid that you can drink. I buy a brand called Fresubin, I don't know if you have it in USA, but I think  you have Ensure, which is similar. 

[Vonnegutjunky]

*moved from symptoms forum

 

Good supplements during reinstatement while trying to stabilize

Sorry if this question is in the wrong place- I don't know a lot about what supplements are good for what - I recently reinstated 2 mos ago to a therapeutic dose of Paxil 20mg - was mostly on 10 before failed partial taper- anyway since January I have been trying to stabilize - I have seen some improvement for about a week - anyway I'm still having really bad swings between feeling like hell and utter hopelessness - just wondering if anyone could suggest some good vitamins to help with stabilization - I prefer to not take actual herbs at this point - but vitamins and other oils -also starting dosage suggestions - thank you so much!

Edited July 8, 2015 by Petunia
title added

[Vonnegutjunky]

I have children to take care of and my parents are passed - tapering is not an option for me right now - that's not going to happen- if anything I will bridge to Prozac - I almost killed myself during my taper - I never knew a suicidal behavior could wash over you like an emotion and calmly have tou behave in ways to try to take your life cause it felt like the right thing to do- I cannot be psychotic in front of my children or put their live I danger so what you have suggested is not realistic for me - I'll stay on meds until my kids are grown if I have no other choice -

[Altostrata]

Please help the moderators out and add any updates to your existing Intro topic. Bookmark it or follow it so you can find it again.

 

It is notoriously difficult to go off Paxil, particularly in an irregular way.

 

It's a good sign that the tinnitus went away, a step towards stabilization.

 

At this point, if you decide to go off Paxil, if I were you I'd switch to Prozac, understanding there are no guarantees this is going to solve the problem. See The Prozac switch or "bridging" with Prozac

[Vonnegutjunky]

Hello - I want to make this as short and sweet as possible -

After I had my 8year old DD I was put on 20 mg of Paxil- it was great - worked wonders- after about 2 years I went down to 10 mg- I had some anxiety but nothing I couldn't handle - in May 2014 I had a great job and finished grad school and was super excited to come off the meds with the help of my PCP - it took me from May - October to get down to 5mg 1 day and 2.5 mg alternating days - I was so happy - then I got a uti and ended up on a sulfa based antibiotics which I am apparently allergic to- long story short Christmas Eve 2014 I flipped out - anxiety- panic - derealization- and suicidal thoughts ( never had suicdial thoughts before btw) so I went to my PCP and told her I want to go back on my 10 mg - so January 1st of this year I reinstated to 10 mg- but I keep having what others reference as the waves or windows of feeling horrific - like I'm not myself! Just feeling sad and doom/ dread and then I get feeling ok for a few weeks and just when I think the worst has passed but it comes back-however I no longer feel suicidal- i have a therapist - he doesn't understand all of the med complications but is encouraging with my desire to come off- and my doc is not sure what is going on- discussed it with her and here are my choices - mind you I really really want off this medication - I can either try a new med that is easier to get off- but no guarantee it will make me feel better or I can up my Paxil and stabilize and try to come off again- I don't want to up it as I worry it will only make things worse- I just want to know that I am normal and I will feel better eventually - is it normal to feel crazy?! 2 weeks of DP/DR and anxiety and then a few weeks of feeling ok? Never feel manic and I'm not bipolar - I'm 42a I just have horrible anxiety - just want to know I will be ok

 

Thank you

[oskcajga]

Well, I certainly must respect your choice as it is your life and you know what is best for yourself and your family.  The switch to prozac is certainly a reasonable option - I'm confident that being on prozac is better than being on paxil (if you must be on something), just because of the more forgiving nature of prozac (long half life). 

 

So you're in this tricky and desperate situation of not being able to get off the medication because the withdrawals are just too damaging to what you have left in your life -  but also not being able to function while on the medication (because of a previous unsuccessful taper).   It seems to me that the sulfa allergy is a very unfortunate situation that exacerbated your withdrawals or something.  It's going to go on my list of antibiotics to avoid - I wasn't aware of that before reading your post.

 

Is there ANY avenue that you can pursue (i.e., friends, family) that you would be able to utilize in order to get your bills paid on time and not to lose the house?  What are your current symptoms that are preventing you from functioning?

 

The bills and the house seem to be the most pressing concern right now.

 

I'm sorry you're in such a desperate situation.  Believe me, I know all about desperate situations while going through SSRI adverse effects, withdrawal, etc.

[Vonnegutjunky]

I am able to work 2 days a week still and luckily because of my job I think I can qualify for a loan - if not I am going to try to refinance my house -I shouldn't have to - I just finished graduate school and I was so ready to begin my career and now all of that has been put on hold and m angry and resentful and I feel hopeless and stuck - ???????????????????? thank you all for listening

[Vonnegutjunky]

I am able to work 2 days a week still and luckily because of my job I think I can qualify for a loan - if not I am going to try to refinance my house -I shouldn't have to - I just finished graduate school and I was so ready to begin my career and now all of that has been put on hold and m angry and resentful and I feel hopeless and stuck - ???????????????????? thank you all for listening

[Petunia]

*moved from symptoms forum

 

Good supplements during reinstatement while trying to stabilize

Sorry if this question is in the wrong place- I don't know a lot about what supplements are good for what - I recently reinstated 2 mos ago to a therapeutic dose of Paxil 20mg - was mostly on 10 before failed partial taper- anyway since January I have been trying to stabilize - I have seen some improvement for about a week - anyway I'm still having really bad swings between feeling like hell and utter hopelessness - just wondering if anyone could suggest some good vitamins to help with stabilization - I prefer to not take actual herbs at this point - but vitamins and other oils -also starting dosage suggestions - thank you so much!

 

I'm sorry about everything you are going through and hope you are able to stabilize on something and get your life back under control. When you are responsible for the welfare of children, you do whatever you need to do to take care of them, I know what its like. Sometimes these drugs seem to help, at least for a while, but other times they end up causing more harm long term.

 

The best I can offer by way of advice is to listen to your body and avoid those things that set off symptoms as much as possible. Aside from a high quality fish oil and magnesium, avoid supplements. (See King of Supplements: Omega 3 Fatty Acids (Fish Oil) and Magnesium, Nature's Calcium Channel Blocker).

 

Once the nervous system becomes sensitized by withdrawal, any new drugs or supplements can cause paradoxical reactions, but most people seem to do better with fish oil and magnesium, start low to see how they effect you.

 

Also see:  The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

 

Please would you add the paxil updose to your signature.

[Vonnegutjunky]

Thank you petunia - I started on the fish oil today - 1200mg - I feel fine - I will give it 4-6 weeks before I try the magnesium- thank you for moving that - I don't know how to work this site very well as I am always viewing the mobile version of it. I hope I can get the magnesium and it works cause I feel like a live electrical wire though my whole body , just buzzing ???? not a very calming or comfortable feeling

[Altostrata]

For information about supplements, start with Important topics about tests, supplements, treatments, diet

[Vonnegutjunky]

Thanks alto- I was looking for but cannot seem to find a vitamin or supplement for this tinnitus ????

Also I saw my doctor today- she gave me options and some advice regarding the way this updose has made me feel (which can only be described as bizarre, strange, dp/dr) she noticed that I changed pharmacies back in January during the latter part of my taper- she had me call them and I found out that I did in fact end up with a different form of generic Paxil - she said this switch can cause people to sometimes have negative reactions which may be why I still have not been able to feel normal or even stable for that matter since January ?!- I wouldn't mind feeling like **** if I felt like myself- I just feel like a freaking alien - but I was dumbfounded when I heard this- is this true? I mean it just think if these were an issue wouldn't more people know about this? Also she said she does not want to give me Prozac because it can be stimulating - I have had anxiety since I was a small child, my depression has never been debilitating- so she said to try to stabilize and just wean off of Paxil - she said if I want to get liquid she will make sure I get it - I go back in September and if I am not stable by then we will think of something else to help with wd - I'm so worried about tapering and feeling so crappy before I start to do it ???????????????????? I feel so defeated and broken - I will forever think of myself as having brain damage now

[JanCarol]

Hey Fellow Hoosier!  (I am an expat Hoosier, but I left my Heart in the Dean Wilderness, at a pond full of American Lotus, and littered with Indiana geodes.....)

 

You wrote:

 

 

 I changed pharmacies back in January during the latter part of my taper- she had me call them and I found out that I did in fact end up with a different form of generic Paxil - she said this switch can cause people to sometimes have negative reactions

 

Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!!!  That's a very astute comment.  My brother's insurance switched him to a generic of Lexapro - he couldn't even FIND a pharmacy that stocked brand name anymore, even if he paid cash for it!  He suffered immensely from the first day of taking the generic.

 

I like Oskcajga's thought that:  if you are not functioning on the drug, why not taper, and "not function" (my interpretation) on less of the drug?  Oskcajga said "function" but I think s/he was thinking that as the drug reduced, your functioning would improve.

 

Have you been here yet?  Tips for tapering off Paxil   You may take part of your pill as tablet and part as liquid, so that you can taper nice and slowly, gradually, and have some measure of control over your process.

 

Here is why we taper:  Rhi's description of healing the brain

 

and you wrote:  

 

there is a psychiatric program at the iu medical center in my state and they are dedicated to assisting people in getting people off meds

 

Huh.  You got Alto's hopes up with that one.  I confess I'm skeptical.  

 

IU Medical Center also does drug testing for Lilly.   They, and IU School of Medicine, receive much of their infrastructure and capital funding from Lilly and other drug companies.  Unless they are running a trial of some sort, I can see no reason why they'd want to get people off psychiatric drugs.  Rehab, maybe - but street drugs are 100x easier to get off than psych drugs.

 

I used to live in Bloomington, and my best friend graduated her MD from IU, and I participated in an IU/Lilly guinea pig drug trial on Zyprexa in the late 90's on the "locked floor" of the IU Indianapolis medical building.  My understanding of IU Medical center is that it is mainstream of the mainstream.  "getting you off psychiatric drugs" there is VERY likely to  be much harsher than the protocols recommended for harm reduction here at SA.  You would want to ask a LOT of questions:

How fast?  What taper methods?  Do you give out "bridging" drugs?  Is this inpatient or outpatient or both?  What is the program exactly?

(just as a reminder, at SA we recommend a taper of no more than 10% of current dose, every 3-4 - or more - weeks.  There are a very few who can do it faster and come out okay - but it is far better to be safe, than to be one of the ones that you read about here in SA with debilitating, crippling symptoms during the journey.)

 

I can recommend a Functional Medicine doctor at Carmel (she knows very little about withdrawal, to my knowledge, but can stabilize a number of your symptoms using natural means)  I know a few Osteopaths in the area who might be trainable. You may have to train a doctor in what you want.  My friend is still a practicing MD in the IU stable, and may be able to recommend someone in the area (Bloomington / Indianapolis) for you.  She is not, however, in public practice anymore - the 15 minute interviews, the data entry, and corporate greed drove her away from family practice.  I also know a competent acupuncturist in Bloomington who might be able to help.  But again - this is not "generally accepted Doctoring principles" and you may have to train the doctor in tapering techniques.

 

But usually, Doctors go by the "too fast taper" method.  There are people littered all over SA as casualties of this.

 

What Should I Expect From My Doctor About Withdrawal Symptoms?

 

I'm glad you found us.  I'm sorry you had to come, but I'm glad you found us.  Always good to know someone from my former, beloved stomping grounds!  (I don't care where you are in Indiana, I lived most of my life there, mostly EVV and Bloomington, but friends all over the state)

[nz11]

I feel so defeated and broken

You are not alone but dont give up simply look at this as a small glitch in the taper curve. i think Mapleleafgirl had 3 failed taper attempts but now she is in the taper success stories. 

It can take several months to stabilize so i am sure you will feel better soon.

Then you can launch a new informed attack at this and win!

 

Hey JC i havent seen that thread before ...i bet it is one of the shortest postings at sa.

Later ...just checked it out wow what a thread that is spot on, brilliant stuff c-p-3-o!! Gee how did i miss that thread. Printed and filed!!

[JanCarol]

By the way, you are in charge of your own medical treatment, but if it were me, knowing what I know - I would change NOTHING about what you are doing.  Not yet. No tapers, no updoses.  If you are on generic from now on, just stick with that until you get more stable.  If you've gone back to brand name, then stay there until you are more stable.  

 

What Petunia was saying about KISSS.  Simple, Slow, Stable, 

 

Let us know what your choices are.  If there is any private information I can give you (just because I used to live there, and am in touch with "alternative scene" - as well as medical scene - there.  Sadly, the Heavenly Osteopath of Great Powers was killed a few years back - he was in Zionsville.  :-(  No more healing from him.

[Vonnegutjunky]

Thank you ladies I appreciate it - yes I am afraid to go off while I am unstable but I know I have to do something- my doctor is new and she went to school with 2 iu psychiatrists and she consults with them on my (other patients ) behalf - my main point was that they do not push drugs on people with anxiety disorders - they do not suggest other medications and my doc feels there is a bit of an unnecessary ad epidemic - there is not a center or anything like that they are just docs who are not med pushers so I trust them- she refused to give me benzos last January when I begged for them - she said they were highly addictive - so yes I trust her and now looking back I realize she had my long term health in her best interest -

I did not switch from brand name to generic, just went from one generic to the next - at this point I know 1 thing - I don't want to be on Paxil - but I also know that before I got on Paxil I had zero quality of life - I could not even leave my home - and I have had therapy for years- I am worried about going back there- full of fear and anxiety and depersonalization - I don't know what to try as I have had anxiety and panic since the age of 3 - I do need some treatment - I am looking at 5htp for when I am done with meds -

 

Just thinking out loud here - thank you all for your advice - no I will not updose but I think I will go back to walgreens and get the other generic Paxil and see if it reduces my ear ringing I only have until September and then I have to start my taper ????????????????????????

 

Thanks for all the support- I will need to get altos address some how so I can send her a gift for all the help she has provided everyone - she needs to start a clinic - she would make millions lol

[Altostrata]

VJ, I thought the tinnitus had gone away? Did it come back?

 

What are your other symptoms? What is your daily symptom pattern since you went up to 20mg? What time of day do you take it? Have the symptoms changed since you went up to 20mg? How's your sleep?

[Vonnegutjunky]

Hi alto- yes the ear ringing came back - it is horrible - I have that and stomach cramps at times and anxiety and sweating but the anxiety is different- not horrible - feels a little like butterflies in my stomach- when I updosed I had depersonalization and derealization but that's 90% gone -

 

I have been keeping track of my symptoms - daily- during the day I feel most anxious - around 9 pm I feel almost normal - I sleep well- actually really well- I sleep usually from 4-6am until 3-5pm - my sleep pattern is due to the fact that I feel better at night and crappy during the day ( I have always had this atypical depression off and on my whole life) so I stay up late and enjoy feeling normal as much as I can - I take my pills at 11:30pm every night - the only pattern to my symptoms that I notice is that the ear ringing is constant, but it lessens at certain times- my anxiety is during the day and when I think about work but that also lessens in the evening - I do sometimes have blurry vision but it's mostly during the day - and there is about 20% dp/dr that lifts in the evening- I also have a tracker that shows a pattern of days when I just feel low day and night for a couple of days - then my mood lifts for a couple of days - I would have to post the chart here for reference to the days of hugs and lows - but they are not extreme from one day to the next - they are gradual highs and lows-

 

 

the way I felt before my updose was was having waves of suicidal feelings - that was the main thing - physically I felt ok - but the suicidal ideation that I never had before scared me and I kept waving though these emotions- but I didn't feel like a zombie then- I felt like myself, just really really crappy- so I increased to 20 and all of these current physical symptoms appeared - it was crazy, the next day I felt like a complete numbed zombie , inside and out , feelings were numb, mind was numb, everything felt like a dream - blurry vision and visual noise - it was horrible- I had the worst brain fog - constant shaking and just panic fear worry - that's gotten better by about 80% - I don't feel suicidal at all anymore but I still worry a lot and sometimes feel like my brain just isn't focusing correctly - some of this is probably my own anxiety mixed in with start up effects and protracted wd - that's when at I think -

[Altostrata]

When do you get the sweating?

 

Overall, are you feeling better since you've been on 20mg?

[Vonnegutjunky]

I really never paid attention to when I sweat - I no longer feel suicidal - but no I don't feel better - but I don't feel worse either - I still feel really strange - I can go for walks around my neighborhood and I'm starting to be interested again in my hobbies, I don't think going up helped at all actually in the short term, but maybe in the long term it will stabilize my moods- because my mood swings before were intense - but I didn't connect them to long term wd- I just thought I was losing my mind

[JanCarol]

Why September for starting your taper?

 

What is the deadline?

 

Please, when you do taper, please take it easy - Paxil is particularly challenging. 

 

Listen to your body (another quote from Rhi):

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4954-rhis-start-small-listen-to-your-body-taper-plan/

[JanCarol]

Also - have you looked into food intolerances? You mentioned cramps - many of us who have been on psych drugs lose our gut biome, and it becomes difficult to digest

 

wheat

gluten

fructose

dairy

high histamine foods

FODMAPS

and Other things

 

and it's different for everyone what your body can tolerate.  Some people have gained relief from symptoms - or at least improvement - just by eliminating the offending food.

[Vonnegutjunky]

My pdoc said if I'm not stable by September then there is no point prolonging - she said I probably won't stabilize and so I need to come off the drugs -

[Altostrata]

It sounds like you are beginning to stabilize. Sometimes it can take months.

 

Please make notes of your daily symptom pattern, including the sweating. This is important to identify if it is caused by too-high dosage of Paxil.

 

It is quite likely your psychiatrist may have a different opinion than mine. If you prefer to follow her advice, please let me know because I put a lot of effort into these posts.

[Vonnegutjunky]

I was wondering if I was feeling something similar to serotonin syndrome - but I never had the hear racing feeling at all- also I really rely on your advice alto - I much prefer listening to your suggestions as you have much more experience than any of my docs - If it is too much serotonin what should I do? Will I stabilize? I felt like this at 15mg too - but if I'm reducing and my brain Starts recognizing that I was reducing and then tries to compensat, then I add while its compensating it can be too much right?! Omg!!! I just realized that!!! I have not sweated for about 2 days now -

[Altostrata]

It's not serotonin syndrome, it's taking a dose that's too high. This is why we suggest people start very low and give it time.

 

It sounds like your system is getting used to it. Do you still have the rapid heartbeat? At what times of day?

 

Please make notes of your daily symptom pattern, including the sweating. This is important to identify if it is caused by too-high dosage of Paxil.

 

[Vonnegutjunky]

Sorry if I miscommunicated - never had rapid heartbeat - have been to docs a few times and blood pressure and all other vitals have been within normal range - I guess I am starting to stabilize - I notice other things getting better too such as being able to comprehend time and time frames now - I was having issues with that before- have not had a sweating issue or stomach cramps for 2 days now - also I am now taking omega 3 for 4 days 1200 mg - I am tolerating it just fine- alto I cannot thank you enough for your help - one of the worst issues is that you want to do something! Anything to fix yourself when all you can do is wait ???????????????? - the worse feeling - you feel helpless and stuck - so horrible ???????????? - I feel like slapping my first pdoc for prescribing this -

[Altostrata]

Sorry, I misunderstood. It sounds like you are stabilizing. After your nervous system gets beaten up by withdrawal syndrome, the drug may not work the same way as it did before. Feeling odd is not unusual.

[oskcajga]

Vonnigut, what did you go to graduate school for?  Was it a M.S., or M.A., in something?