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Vonnegutjunky

Vonnegutjunky: Paxil 10 mg for 8 years - partial wean with reinstatement

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Vonnegutjunky

I got my masters in marriage and family therapy but I have worked on several research studies and worked on grant proposals for overseas studies in Botswana for multicultural therapy and studies

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oskcajga

I got my masters in marriage and family therapy but I have worked on several research studies and worked on grant proposals for overseas studies in Botswana for multicultural therapy and studies

 

That sounds really quite interesting.   Did you ever get a chance to go to Botswana? 

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Vonnegutjunky

No I never did unfortunately -

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oskcajga

No I never did unfortunately -

 

You will eventually if that's something that you'd like to do.  Traveling during WD or adverse reactions is not impossible- I've done quite a bit of it myself.  It's not very fun or rewarding, however.

 

How are you feeling these days?

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Vonnegutjunky

I am about 50-75% more stable that I was just a week ago- so I am starting to stabilize - I still have ear ringing, visual noise and sometimes just feel strange - but I am increasingly becoming before clear cognitively - I say that with trepidation, everytime I think I'm on the mend I end up back in that deep cognitive fog and lack of clear thinking ???? - my worry has greatly reduced and I am relaxing more - I have been doing a lot of reading and trying to learn how to crush pills - I know that I have access to compounding pharmacies here and liquid but I have heard horror stories of people switching from pills to liquid and having adverse reactions

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Altostrata

If you take part of your dose in tablet form and part in liquid, it will help your system get used to the liquid form. It really is more convenient and precise than crushing and weighing tablets.

 

While you are taking 20mg, you don't have to consider a liquid.

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Vonnegutjunky

Ok thanks alto - I will begin my taper in September so I will ask her for that when I see her again- man I am nervous but I don't have a choice -

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Jlynn

I have never had any trouble switching from the tablets to the liquid personally and have done so a few times. I am hoping my Dr. will give me the 10 mg tablets to taper with the liquid when I start again soon simply because the liquid is expensive here even with my insurance. 

 

Glad you are starting to feel better! Been thinking about you!

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ang

Well done, for planning ahead............. planning a taper in September...........  slow and steady.  I did it all wrong.... so much better with information from this site.

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Vonnegutjunky

Thanks jlynn :) I am starting to feel better - I think preplanning is needed especially after what I just went through- even if I have to cut 1 mg every 6 mos and it takes me 5 years to get off I don't care - I will go as slow as needed - and live my life in the meantime :)

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Vonnegutjunky

So I am thinking about my first taper - I am going to a compounding pharmacy (at least that is my plan - I will see if they take my insurance) anyway 10% taper would mean to ask for 18mg tablets - I think I will do that for 4 months - my fear is protracted wd - mine seemed to hit about 7 mos out last time - i don't know if I should start a taper sooner or later - just thinking out loud here

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oskcajga

So I am thinking about my first taper - I am going to a compounding pharmacy (at least that is my plan - I will see if they take my insurance) anyway 10% taper would mean to ask for 18mg tablets - I think I will do that for 4 months - my fear is protracted wd - mine seemed to hit about 7 mos out last time - i don't know if I should start a taper sooner or later - just thinking out loud here

 

Sounds like a good course of action.  Will certainly make your life much easier if you have a pharmacist do this for you.  I wish I was a pharmacist, I'd totally open up a pharmacy dedicated to helping people taper off these poisons. 

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nz11

So glad you are feeling better

You might want to have a close look at Mapleleafgirl taper in the success stories

Start slow is the way to go so you may want to consider a 5% rate to start with. ML actually started off at 2.5 % and averaged a taper rate of  6%  over 4 yrs. No pressure the decision is yours.

 

Another writing the book on tapering is Brassmonkey ..you could have a look at his taper too.

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Vonnegutjunky

Thanks nz - I am using mapleleafgirl as my inspiration for getting off - I know I can take larger drops in the beginning - I have always been able to go from 20 to 10 without any problems - and from 10-7 I'm always fine too- it's just anything below that hits me hard -

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Altostrata

That would be one way of trying out a 10% taper, VJ. Another would be to get 10mg tablets and take 8mg in the liquid form. This gives you greater freedom in adjusting your dosage.

 

Your doctor probably will have to write the prescription for the liquid as "divided doses" for insurance coverage of both the tablet and liquid.

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brassmonkey

Hi VJ--  reading your signature it looks like you "have become unstuck in time"  (just a typo Nov 2024).  It looks like the problems you had last time you went below 7mg was probably due to the alternating days, that is a real formula  for trouble.  I think if you stick to the 10% taper with daily dosing you will have a lot less trouble this try.  I am a big fan of Mapleleafgirl and another one to look at is Chia, she is having great success with her super slow taper.  One variation of the 10% method is the "Brassmonkey Slide Method"  I devised it because I was really afraid of the possible WD symptoms I faced tapering from 40mg.  I tapered 2.5% a week for four weeks, making a total of 10% and then helded for another two weeks to let things settle out before doing it all again.  I won't say it has been symptom free but I have been able to hold down my job as a Research Engineer the whole time, so they have been manageable.

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nz11

Sorry decided i would back out of this thread

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Vonnegutjunky

No nz please don't- I. Am glad you put my in my place - your right - I dot have that thinking it won't happen to me - and then bam it does - thank you for putting me incheck - I am hear for support and wisdom- I don't want to eff this up again

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Vonnegutjunky

I had the worst day today- it was bizarre and stressful- I have wanted to adopt a small dog for about 3 mos now- thinking the distraction may help me with wd - well I told someone on a free dog ad in my area that I was interested in their lab that they were giving away- I had a lab in the past he was mid sized and I love their gentle temperaments - so when I got to the park to see the dog it was huge!!!! It looked like a miniature horse - and for some reason I took the dog! It wa alike I was behaving in a movie - just not thinking about things clearly - as soon as I got home I realized I had made a huge mistake - I contacted the person I got him from and returned him- I feel so stupid! So out of character - like it's almost as if I'm trying to find anything to feel better so I am behaving erratically - I felt good yesterday like. 90% myself - today I feel like crap- I know this is continued wd symptoms - I also know I am stabilizing - just not as fast as I want- I also think I have depression now because of all of this - :( I really feel like I will never be myself again- like I am somehow forever changed - I think I have brain damage -

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PapaBear

Hi Vj,

 

What I can tell you is that while on Paxil and especially since tapering I did several things like that and in most cases I was questioning my sanity afterwards :-)

The point is that we all want to live a pretty normal life and by doing extraordinary things (like taking a giant dog) it sometimes feels as the whole wd thing wouldn't exist. Only afterwards it becomes clear that it might have been a little bit too extraordinary.

Besides, there are probably hundreds of people without wd problems who have done the same so you should take it with a smile.

Maybe you find a smaller one in a shelter?

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Vonnegutjunky

Thank you papa bear :) I appreciate that - I think I'm going to redecorate my dining room in the mean time :)

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Altostrata

VJ, your comments are striking for their unrelentingly harsh self-criticism. Strongly recommend you learn to forgive yourself for making mistakes.

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Vonnegutjunky

Thank you alto - I will talk to my therapist about this -

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Altostrata

To get through this, you're going to have to learn to self-soothe and take care of yourself rather than yelling at yourself.

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Vonnegutjunky

Maybe someone could give some insight to my pattern of symptoms- I don't think I am still in wd - I do think the experience of wd caused treatment resistant depression of the diurnal variation- I have never had depression before but here are my symptoms -

 

*I wake up around 2-3pm after staying up until 3-4am

 

*I am still tired when I get up -

 

* I feel so funky when I wake -

 

* I feel anxious about everything and my ears ring so loud- my thought process is foggy-

 

*I ruminate a lot and I just don't feel right - like I am wired and tried at the same time -

 

*my mouth feels like I burnt it on hot food (except I didn't)

 

*contant visual snow and after images

 

*zig zag patterns in my peripheral (maybe once a week)

 

*constant tinnitus

 

*deja vue about 5-7 times per week

 

*I have problems thinking about future plans and comprehending time (days weeks hours)

 

* Around 7-9 pm a switch goes on and I feel better -

 

a some nights better than others - but I feel like me - not happy but much less foggy and less anxious - sometimes the ear ringing goes away in the evening- however the visual snow stays 24/7 and the zig zag patterns happen in the evening

 

I no longer have head wooshes - muscle twitches - facial twitches or blurry vision or stomach cramps

 

I have always had migraine auras - to the point that I have lost consciousness for seconds - but I have not had this problem much lately

 

It's hard to tell what's wd and what's depression- I know wd comes in waves but my moods are varying and a bit erratic during the day but in the evening I'm much more level- any insights would be helpful - thank you

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oskcajga

Maybe someone could give some insight to my pattern of symptoms- I don't think I am still in wd - I do think the experience of wd caused treatment resistant depression of the diurnal variation- I have never had depression before but here are my symptoms -

 

*I wake up around 2-3pm after staying up until 3-4am

 

*I am still tired when I get up -

 

* I feel so funky when I wake -

 

* I feel anxious about everything and my ears ring so loud- my thought process is foggy-

 

*I ruminate a lot and I just don't feel right - like I am wired and tried at the same time -

 

*my mouth feels like I burnt it on hot food (except I didn't)

 

*contant visual snow and after images

 

*zig zag patterns in my peripheral (maybe once a week)

 

*constant tinnitus

 

*deja vue about 5-7 times per week

 

*I have problems thinking about future plans and comprehending time (days weeks hours)

 

* Around 7-9 pm a switch goes on and I feel better -

 

a some nights better than others - but I feel like me - not happy but much less foggy and less anxious - sometimes the ear ringing goes away in the evening- however the visual snow stays 24/7 and the zig zag patterns happen in the evening

 

I no longer have head wooshes - muscle twitches - facial twitches or blurry vision or stomach cramps

 

I have always had migraine auras - to the point that I have lost consciousness for seconds - but I have not had this problem much lately

 

It's hard to tell what's wd and what's depression- I know wd comes in waves but my moods are varying and a bit erratic during the day but in the evening I'm much more level- any insights would be helpful - thank you

 

Many of those symptoms are not depression - at least no depression that I could fathom.  I've been severely depressed before, and didn't have many of those symptoms.   

 

After an all-too-fast taper off duloxetine, and an adverse reaction to prozac, I did have many of those symptoms, however.

 

Have things gotten significantly better since you reinstated after being around 5mg (if you ignore the urge for suicide you had mentioned for the purpose of this discussion)?  Or have many of the symptoms just persisted, with new symptoms forming?

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brassmonkey

The symptoms may not be WD, but considering that you are still taking 20mg of Paxil they are certainly drug related. One of the infamous side effects of ADs is depression.  Getting off of these drugs is a long slow process that defies analysis.  Trying to micromanage and second guess symptoms is a great way to make oneself crazy, there are just too many of they and they are too intertwined.  Keeping track of them and watching for improvements can be helpful, but trying to find patterns is pretty useless, as once one is identified it will change.  There is a technique used for handing panic and anxiety that is quite useful for WD in general AAF (Acknowledge, Accept, Float).  Acknowledge that the problem is there, explore it and get to know it.  Accept that it is real and that there is very little you can do about it.  Let the symptoms Float away as you get on with your life.  It takes practice, but really helps.

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Altostrata

Unless you work at night, if I were you, I'd normalize your sleep pattern. The way you're doing it can throw off all kinds of diurnal hormonal cycles, plus add to "depression" or anomie. Also, get regular exercise out in the natural light. Sunlight resets your diurnal rhythm.
 

See Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

 

Some of your other symptoms still sound like autonomic instability from withdrawal reactions.

 

What time of day do you take Paxil?

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Vonnegutjunky

Thanks everyone for your insight- I take it at 11:30pm - which used to be my bedtime - my symptoms have not gotten worse - and I do not have new symptoms popping up- my symptoms have been the same since i started on 20mg except for what has left - I no longer have suicidal waves come over me - I when I was at 5 mg I didn't know I was in wd or maybe I would have stayed there - maybe not - I went to 10 because wd progressively got worse or I am getting that treatment resistant depression I have heard about people getting from ads - I am functioning now - I have gotten to a point where I no longer get overwhelming feelings of sadness and hopelessness - I have for the past couple of days been feeling not so lost about my whole situation - my ear ringing and visual snow may be because of the Paxil- I have had both of these issues in the past when my anxiety ramps up- stress seems to bring these 2 thingson for me- I am so sensitive - I am a person who experiences placebo effects and I feel them strong- also when I am eating food if I look at other people cooking different food, the food I am eating will start to taste like the food I am watching others eat - it's not a bad thing it's just an example of how suggestible my mind is - it just frustrates me if I don't know if it's the medication or continued wd or just severe depression from the trauma I feel from the events of this past year- probably a combination of all 3 -

I do need to get up during the day but I feel so awful so if I don't have to, I'd rather stay in bed-

I agree - I need to fix my sleep schedule :(

I like the floating idea - accept and float and don't let it define my day or my mood - I will practice this and see how I do :)

Thank you everyone ❤️

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Altostrata

Please put paragraph breaks in your posts. Blocks of dense text are difficult to read online.

 

Please do what you can to normalize your sleep pattern.

 

It sounds to me like reinstatement is working. Hang in there, it can take some time for symptoms to fade -- you will have waves and windows.

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Vonnegutjunky

Update

I have a few good days- feel comfort in the evening

Then during the day I get very upset - anxious- waves of sadness, despair- it's almost like a calm panic - like a panic attack but it's mental? Hard to explain-

 

I want to see if the omega 3 has a positive effect on my visual and tinnitus so I decided to take it tonight at 6 pm instead of 11- if I feel positive effects I will increase to take it 2-3 times throughout the day-

 

I will keep posting -

 

I am thinking of adding a b vitamin complex - any thoughts or suggestions?

 

I also have been reading about Paxil being an Anticholinergenic and discontinuation my be a result of Cholinergic rebound - if this is the case shouldn't an antihistamine help?

Also I have read about gaba-

 

Any suggestions for diet or supplements to help reduce these ? I know gaba supplemts don't cross the blood brain Barrier?

I would like to experiment with some diet or supplemts for these - thanks :)

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brassmonkey

Hi VJ--  it's good to hear that you've had a few good days.  As I remember back when I was around 20mg my emotions and such were all over the place most of the time and like you more so during the day and calmer in the evening. Things have improved tremendously since then.

 

I started on fish oil about a month and a half ago and it seems to be helping.  Primarily in the brain fog/cognitive dept., I haven't noticed any real changes in the tinnitus or visual problems though.  It did take a while to kick in, about a week before I noticed any marked changes.

 

I would be very careful with the B vitamins, especially B-12.  Many people have trouble with B-12 tripping of anxiety and panic and there are similar reports for B-3.

 

Also remember the scientific method, only change one parameter at a time, and thing in geologic time frames when trying things.

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Vonnegutjunky

Thanks brass - I appreciate the advice - I am also on fish oil but not sure if I'm taking enough - I'm going slow right now -

I read about wd theories and Cholinergic rebound-

Any diet ideas on how to reduce acetylcholine? I think this might help me with all of the anxiety and panic -

Also I read that not enough GABA can be an issue too?

Would just like to either start multivitamins to support the regulation of these transmitters or start a strict diet to support a reduction in acetylcholine and an increase in GABA? I will continue on with the fish oil as it does not seem to cause me any negative reactions - I don't know that it's helping but I know at not hurting

 

Thanks!

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Petunia

Hi VJ,

Its good you are having some better days. By slowing your taper and holding, when you get an increase in symptoms, its possible to keep withdrawal symptoms to a minimum and remain functional.

 

As brass has mentioned, be careful with the B vitamins, some of them can be too activating for a NS sensitized by withdrawal. As with all changes, implement them one at a time and in small doses to see how they are going to effect you.

 

If you take a multi-ingredient supplement, and it has a bad effect, you wont know which ingredient you are reacting to.

 

Here is a good place to start for information about what helps most in withdrawal:

 

Important topics about tests, supplements, treatments, diet

and  The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

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brassmonkey

Hi VJ-- I'm not the one to ask about diet. Personally I'm on the "Seefood" diet, I see food and I eat it.  I do pay attention to portion size, but other than that I try to balance things by the week not daily.

 

Panic and anxiety are two major problems during WD for a lot of people.  The big problem is that there are two types of each; normal everyday anxiety and panic/panic attacks and then there is drug induced "neuroanxiety" and "neuropanic".  For the first "normal" type there are a load of coping strategies and diet plans to help minimize them.  Unfortunately for the later "neuro" varietys, because they are drug induced and not true emotions, there isn't a whole lot that can be done to stop them.  The same coping strategies can be used but they have limited success.  This is where the AAF from my earlier post comes into play.  The "neuro" variety, although extremely uncomfortable, will not actually harm you.  The best thing really is to just "give in" to it, explore how it feel physically and emotionally, get to understand it to a point.  Then accept that it is there and will go away when it is good and ready, and then get on with your life as best as you can.  It's like having a bad house guest that you wish would leave but won't take the hints, and you can't throw out, but eventually they will leave of their own accord.

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Vonnegutjunky

Update - not had a wave of icky desperate/ hopeless/horror/sadness in almost 3 days- did have a small wave of tearfulness on Friday but it was quick and it did not ruin my day- I started on magnesium citrate today - supposed to take 2 tablets a day but I started with 1 - I am very very lethargic all the time but especially sleepy during the day- but I sleep at night too- I sleep a lot- it's not broken and I dream a lot - so I know I am getting restful sleep- I still get anxiety during the day but yes I also am r ally tried on top of that?! It's strange but at least I can sleep - better than insomnia- so I continue to show improvement after my reinstatement although it's been over 3 mos! Better late than never - don't know when I'm going to taper again, maybe in the spring- will not rush anything even though I want off the meds -

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