I am Khosenit. I have been on antidepressants for about 18 years, and I am stable on them.

[Khosenit]

I would like to be able to wean myself off antidepressants, but have not been able to for more than a few weeks at the most. I am currently consulting a specialist in Bioidentical hormone therapies. I think I have thyroid issues also, and would like to see if balancing my thyroid will help eliminate the need for antidepressants. I found a link to this site on a Facebook group I am in.

[peggy]

hello and welcome Khosenit,

 

would you be able to record a history of your medications - time on them and dosages etc?

 

I also have been on AD's a long time - 16 years now and am very stable on 50mg of effexor (about) - i am on my third slow taper - will be going turtle slow this time!

[ang]

Hello and welcome.   I went off ADs    and crashed and burned!   

 

Anyway, I have tried so many herbs, etc.  None have worked for me, expect St Johns Wort helps a little, and magnesium I find calming.

I truly believe I am just messed up due to long term Antidepressants use.

 

My only recommendation is a taper over 3 years...........

 

If I can stabilise on my new AD, that is what I will be doing, a very, very slow taper.  All is clear in hindsight.  Please, please dont risk doing a taper any faster than 2 or 3 years, if you been on ADs a long time.  But of course, if you can list your history of medications in your signature, will be very, very helpful.

 

Dont crash and burn, I like I have..........

[Fresh]

Hi Khosenit , welcome to the site.

 

When you stopped antidepressants in the past , you most likely developed withdrawal symptoms from stopping too quickly.

Try reading "Why Taper By 10%" and "What is Withdrawal" in the Tapering section.

 

If you click FOLLOW at the top right , you'll receive an email each time someone posts here.

 

Best wishes ,  Fresh

[Petunia]

Welcome Khosenit,

I'm glad you found us, you will find a lot of good information here to help you successfully get off your medications by tapering carefully. Even if you correct any thyroid problems, you will still need to taper off your antidepressants carefully in order to avoid withdrawal symptoms.

 

As Peggy requested, we do need a bit more information about your drug history and current situation. The best way to do that is to put this information in your signature. Putting a short version of your drug and tapering history in your signature helps people understand your context, it appears below each of your posts. Here are instructions for how to do it:

 

http://survivinganti...your-signature/

 

Here are the links to the articles Fresh recommended:

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

What is withdrawal syndrome?

 

Once you get back to us with more details we will be able to offer some suggestions.

 

Petunia.

[Khosenit]

Okay I just changed my signature as suggested. I have just started on Bioidentical hormone therapy, in an effort to see if other imbalances can be corrected. Found out my Estrogen levels are surprisingly normal, even though my periods stopped a year and a half ago (I'm 57). My progesterone level is barely detectable, DHEA is quite low, as is D3, B12 and testosterone. I am beginning replacement of these. I am also cutting my AD dosage by half while I am doing the bioidenticals, just to give me an idea of how it all interacts. I know that after 3 days if I start sinking, I will have to go back to the original dosage.

 

I normally try to clean out during the summer, when my mood is generally more stable and up. I usually clean out from one for a week and then the other for one week. Last summer I didn't do this because I was having emotional issues with my grown kids, and felt more fragile.

 

I have to say that the first night of taking progesterone at bedtime, I had the first restful night of sleep than I have had in years. When I looked in the mirror, the dark circles under my eyes were a full shade lighter, and I looked noticeably younger to myself. I will keep you posted.

[nz11]

I am also cutting my AD dosage by half 

Khosenit that is not a wise idea esp when you are a long term user. The outcome is very predictable and you are playing with fire.

The rec taper here is 10% reduction per month of previous dose . However people who have been on for a long time may be better off at least starting even slower say 5%.

Note 10 % is rec for a reason...not 50%.

 

Petu has given you the link to why taper at 10% . In all humble sincerity ...did you read it? 

 

Personally imo it seems pointless trying to correct hormonal imbalances when on drugs. They are creating a chemical imbalance in and of themselves and causing side effects and down regulation of other systems.

You might like to perhaps consider going back to the original dosage and taper at 5% to start with at least.

[nz11]

Just run these two drugs through the drugs checker. Its not rec one take these together.

Whats the bet these drugs are the problem. How come your doc didnt know about this? Doxepin is an older tricyclic and will need to be tapered also esp after long term use. 

 

Interactions between your selected drugs

doxepin ↔ fluoxetine

Applies to: doxepin, Prozac (fluoxetine)

Talk to your doctor before using doxepin and FLUoxetine. This combination may cause sedation, dry mouth, blurred vision, constipation, and urinary retention. You could also have high levels of FLUoxetine which include altered consciousness, confusion, poor muscle coordination, abdominal cramping, shivering, dilation of the pupils, sweating, high blood pressure, and increased heart beat. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using your medications without talking to your doctor first.

Major Highly clinically significant. Avoid combinations; the risk of the interaction outweighs the benefit.

[Petunia]

Hi Khosenit,

Thank you for filling in your signature. I share nz11's concern about what you are planning on doing. Did you read the links I posted for you? If you make several changes at the same time, you wont know what change is causing what effect.  It could take several weeks, maybe a couple of months for your body to adjust to the new hormones, if you cut your antidepressants in half, you are upsetting your nervous system and the new medications may behave erratically.

 

I had been taking HRT quite sucessfully for a couple of years, but when I went into withdrawal, everything went into chaos and the hormone replacement started causing unusual symptoms. I changed from pills to patches to bio-identicals, and in the end had to give up completely because the withdrawal had put my body into chaos and the hormones were causing paradoxical effects. So please, don't risk upsetting your nervous system while trialling the new hormones.

 

Here is another link which will help explain things:

 

The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable. 

 

I get the impression that your understanding of antidepressants is that they work a lot like aspirin and that you can leave them off for a few days and they are cleared completely from you body and any effect they had on you will be gone. But that's not how they work. Over time, they cause significant changes to take place and it requires more time than a week for those changes to be reversed once the drug is stopped, this will explain:

 

http://survivinganti...-of-sa/?p=91582

 

I hope you will take the time to read what we have posted for you so that you can benefit from learning how to taper safely. If I were you I would wait until you have stabilized on your new hormone regime and then begin a slow taper off your antidepressants, tapering one at a time.

 

Petunia.

[Khosenit]

Hi everyone, thank you for all the feedback. Please try to be patient with me And try to hold back on the recriminations until you get to know me. I am a community herbalist and not prone to make rash uneducated decisions. I am not afraid of experimentation and self-observation of symptomology. This morning I decided that I will go back to the original AD dosage until I get stable on the bioidenticals. I am glad that you concur.

 

As an herbalist, I never recommend that people go off their meds, particularly for clinical Depression or Bipolar. While St Johnswort, Kava Kava, Scullcap, Passionflower and others may help for mild situational depression, they are not really effective for clinical Depression or bipolar. Please take the time to get to know me.

[Khosenit]

I am well aware of how SSRIS work, and know that they are not like taking an aspirin. Really, please don't insult my intelligence. Assumptions like that only show your lack of intelligence, and not mine. Fluoxetine does remain in the bloodstream for about three days, while Paxil, Zoloft and other SSRIS cycle through much faster.

 

Just please give me the benefit of the doubt until you know me, and I will do the same with you. Or please let me know if this is not a support group. Support.

[nz11]

Kohsenit, I apologise if I have offended you.  Rest assured everyone  has your best interests at heart. Please stay with us. You are welcome here.

 

I am sure you are a very intelligent person and very educated. Perhaps a good word to use might be informed and we have all been very misinformed in the past regarding our plight and to what we have consented to…at least I know I was.

 

Were you aware of the ‘major’ interaction effects of your two drugs did the doc inform you of that. Did your doc inform you of the arms length list of side effects( There is probably a list of them on this site but im not sure where however i have made a list of them in my intro  ..http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7571-☼-nz11-climbs-onboard/?p=112929 ) or possible sexual damage from prozac…Lilly warn of it on page 14 of the 27 page PIL for Prozac.

Did he provide you with a tapering schedule or timeframe for being on the drug and to taper off?

 

You say this,

 

"I would like to be able to wean myself off antidepressants, but have not been able to do so for more than a few weeks at the most."

 

May I ask why do you think that is?

How did you taper in the past?  

 

Were you aware that the serotonin occupancy levels in the brain on exposure to these drugs follow an exponential decay function in relation to dropping dosages. That is why the 10%taper rule is rec and follows a decreasing geometric progression and not an arithmetic progression. This is not an idea plucked from thin air but based on thousands of peoples experiences who like myself and yourself were unable to get off these drugs, it gives the best chance of successfully escaping this drug addiction,as well as minimizing a lot of suffering in the process; this approach developed from the frontline of thebattle field has now been confirmed by theory.

The study is here and well worth a read.

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6036-why-taper-paper-demonstrates-importance-of-gradual-change-in-plasma-concentration/

 

[nb.starting to taper off 20mg using the 10%rule  may take 30 months to accomplish allgoingwell.....that is the timeframe we are dealing with because pharma have taken addiction to a whole new level and lied about it.]

 

Glenmullen has put together a 58 point checklist of wdl symptoms …whenever i tried unsuccessfully to get of the drug I ended up in a heap crying and sobbing daily…did you know the number one symptom on the checklist is crying spells in other words it wasn’t me it was the drug wdl.

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2390-dr-joseph-glenmullens-withdrawal-symptom-checklist/

 

Im all ears as to finding a solution to ssri wdl and healing. So do stay with us and keep us updated whatever you choose to do. And with whatever advise/success  you might have.

 

I have a question for you though..if its ok.....why do you say this,..."I never recommend that people go off their meds, particularly for clinical Depression or Bipolar."

 

oh yeah i nearly forgot ..i think that was a good decision to go back to orig dose of the ad. and re-evaluate the game plan.

[Petunia]

I am sorry you misunderstood my intention Khosenit, no offense intended.

 

We are a support group for people wanting to safely taper off their psychiatric medications, which is what you suggested you wanted help with in your first post here:

 

I would like to be able to wean myself off antidepressants, but have not been able to for more than a few weeks at the most.

 

How can we help you with this?

[Khosenit]

I don't know where my responses are if they were deleted by the moderator? I am still trying to figure out how this site works. Am back on regular dosage for now. How can I taper off by 10%? I am just trying to understand how such a minute amount can even be measured, let alone actually decreased. Is there something I am missing?

[nz11]

Good question

Here is a link to how to taper prozac.

Many are using a liquid and some are using a scale .

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/759-tips-for-tapering-off-prozac-fluoxetine/

 

...................................................................................

Using fluoxetine liquid to taper
This is by far the easiest way to taper by very small amounts. It comes in a concentation of 20mg fluoxetine in 5mL of liquid, meaning there is 4mg of fluoxetine in 1mL. If you are taking 10mg Prozac now, the liquid equivalent would 2.5mL. If you want to take 9mg of Prozac, you would take 2.25mL of the liquid.

Always check the concentration of the liquid you get as it can vary among manufacturers, and adjust your calculations accordingly.
 
If your fluoxetine liquid contains 20mg fluoxetine in 5mL of liquid:

•    1 mL= 4mg
•    0.5mL = 2mg
•    0.25mL = 1mg
•    0.2ml = 0.8mg

You will need an oral syringe to measure out your dose of the liquid.

To use the oral syringe, you need a special cap to put on the bottle of liquid Prozac. The cap should have a hole in it, the tip of the oral syringe fits into this. Read this about oral syringes.

If your pharmacist doesn't have a cap, ask for a smaller medicine bottle with this type of cap. Pour some of your liquid Prozac into it and draw your dosage from the smaller bottle.

Here's an illustration of how to draw the medication from the bottle http://survivinganti...ndpost__p__2284

Also see http://survivinganti...dpost__p__21391

See more detail about how to measure and taper Prozac-brand liquid here http://survivinganti...dpost__p__41090

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May i make a wee suggestion. 18 years is a long time on the drug you could  make the first drop to 19.5 for a month and see how you feel thats a 2.5 % drop to start with.

 

Welcome aboard. 

[Khosenit]

I have been taking the Fluoxetine-Doxepin combination since 1997 or so. I don't have any side effects with this combo, and am aware that other people have interactions. I had horrible side effects with Paxil, Zoloft, Trazadone, and even St Johnswort. With St Johnswort I became extremely sensitive to sunlight and became physically ill for 10 hours or so after being outdoors in the sun for only 10 minutes. I would like to eliminate the Doxepin only because the only reason I have been taking it is to help with sleeping, which it only works part of the time.But it does have a synergistic effect in combination.

 

So now I am on day 5 of bioidenticals. I have not begun the testosterone yet, but will get that shipped to begin next week. I think the B12 shot on day 1 had a big effect. NP Sarah said I am severely depleted, but only scheduled to have 1 shot every 2 weeks.

 

This may seem chaotic to you, but actually is very orderly in my mind. The dark circles under my eyes are still looking lighter. I think it is most likely the B12 is responsible. I think once every 2 weeks may not be quite enough, but it's a start.

[Khosenit]

I didn't know I could get this in a liquid. But is it available in generic? Or is it only the Prozac brand? I ask because for the first few months I took the branded, and I had several manic episodes. Whatever is in Prozac is much stronger than the generic.

[Altostrata]

Please read the link provided and use Google to answer other questions about availability of the liquid.

[Khosenit]

Looking up Doxepin. Looks like both are available in liquid. I had no idea. Now I just need to ask my pcp.

[Khosenit]

Thanks for letting me know liquid is available. It is probably more absorbable.