Katy91: Olanzapine withdrawal attempt no.5

[Katy91]

Thanks Alto.

 

I've been feeling tired all today and now.  I thought I slept okayish last night but maybe I didn't.  Maybe it's all catching up with me, waking at 5am last week and then having to prepare for a nightmare job interview today.  The light hasn't really bothered me today but I do have sore, tired eyes.  Looks like I won't be cutting this week.

[Altostrata]

Good luck at the job interview. I know you'll be brilliant.

[Spookypaws]

Katy,

I can relate I'm trying to get off zyprexa myself. I just tried quitting 2 weeks ago and had insomnia and anxiousness, so I'm back on the poison. I've only been on for 6 months though I want to get off so bad.

[Katy91]

I was exhausted on Friday again, felt like I wanted my bed all day.  Then I slept brilliantly from 10 to 7ish and I felt quite refreshed yesterday.  Then I woke too early this morning maybe 6ish and I feel exhausted again.  It's an awful feeling, like being hungover all day, my eyes feel sore and tired like their being propped up by matchsticks.  I didn't cut this Friday I think I want to have more good days than bad before I make another reduction.  I've taken 1 mg of melatonin for the last two nights considering I got 1 nights good sleep and 1 nights bad I don't know what to make of it.  I suppose I should take it for a whole week and see how I feel.

[Katy91]

I didn't sleep that well last night yet today I've felt totally fine.  It just seems so random I sleep well but feel terrible in the day, then I sleep badly and feel fine.  I thought it all came down to how much sleep I got but obviously not.

[Katy91]

I've been taking 1mg of melatonin for 6 nights and I feel great. No tiredness or the on edge feeling. I feel quite suspicious of I think that taking melatonin has raised the dose of olanzapine because why else do I feel so fine again all or a sudden and also my appetite has increased. Is there any research on melatonin and drug dosages?

[Fresh]

Hi Katy , the melatonin should be fine , it doesn't raise the dose of olanzapine.   Have you read the thread on "Windows and Waves"?

Sometimes symptoms will get better or worse for no apparent reason.

If you want to check out any medication interactions , use the Interaction Checker at www.drugs.com

Best wishes ,  Fresh

[Katy91]

I'm now on 3.55mg and still sleeping well which is the main thing.  Last week I had a couple of days of severe emotional pain.  I felt overwhelming sadness in the morning and it continued for the rest of the day and night.  It is an actual physical pain in my throat, it was very debilitating.  I wanted to cry but I was unable to.  Luckily I've not had two days in a row of such pain but I felt very tired yesterday as I suppose I was recovering from it.  I guess that is what you guys would call neuro emotions.

[jammin83]

Hi Katy, 

 

I was just thinking about you recently, I am sorry to hear about the overwhelming sadness. That lasted a while for me. Maybe you should just hold where you are at for a while. No need to rush, although I understand the concerns. 

 

Much love. 

[Katy91]

Is it okay to make a cut when you have a heavy cold?  I never got sick when I was on a full dose of Olanzapine it must do something to your immune system.

 

As an aside I'm stressing about a new job I've been offered and the references they are asking for.  Because I have so many gaps in my employment history they are asking for an additional reference from a professional who has known me for the last 3 years.  I only have one friend to ask and I've texted her and called her but she hasn't responded.  Also I suspect she gave me a dodgy reference in the past.  She also has suggested that I should work in a supermarket.  I think she just wants me to do badly and also that she is self serving and worried that there could be some negative consequences for her in providing me a reference given my involvement with the police and psych services in the past.  Of course if I wasn't isolated and friendless this wouldn't be a problem.

[Katy91]

My friend has said she will provide a reference.  I shouldn't be so quick to think the worst of people (but I do) and catastrophise.  I feel a bit guilty now but relieved all the references should be sorted.

[Altostrata]

Good to hear, Katy.

 

As to your question above, when you're sick, it might be a good idea to postpone a drug increase.

 

How are you doing now?

[Katy91]

I'm not too bad, thanks for asking Alto.  I'm worried about starting this new job, whether I'll be talkative enough for them.  I've still not been given a start date so I think they are still doing the checks which worries me.

 

I've quit smoking because of the cold I caught.  Gone from 20 a day to zero though I am using the nictotine gum.  I don't think it's true that quitting smoking raises the dose of your drug by 50% because I would have felt that like a ton of bricks.  I've not been sleeping well for the last week or so, it's hard to say what the cause is it could be the cold, the smoking cessation or the nicotine gum.  So I'm not going to decrease again until my sleep is better.  I'm on 3.25mg at the moment.

 

One big improvement I've experienced for the last couple of months is that I'm no longer bored.  Even though my job didn't change in terms of daily tasks I noticed that I stopped clock watching every minute of the day.  The drug induced apathy has started to lift!

[Katy91]

I do think I need to make a cut due to quitting smoking. The Royal college of psychs says 25% in the first week and 50% in the following 4 weeks. I've felt horrible today despite sleeping a solid 8 hours last night. I think its an olanzapine hangover. So worried about starting a new job when I feel like ****. I've already made a bad impression.

[JanCarol]

Actually Katy, it's amazing that you got the new job!  (do I understand that correctly?)

 

Starting a new job would be a good time to HOLD, to stop cutting for awhile.  Any time you have a change - like a cold, or moving, or changing jobs, or a breakup, or even losing a pet, or even based on how you feel - are good reasons to hold.  Holding, waiting in between cuts helps you heal, and increases your chances of getting off the drug successfully.

 

I realize you are doing tiny tapers, but you are doing them weekly.  Sometimes your brain needs about a 3 week break from changes, which is why we usually cut every 3-4 weeks - it gives the brain time to build more neurons before adjusting to another decrease.  Many micro-tapers include a break, a hold, every 3-4 cuts, so that the brain can "catch up."

 

I understand your desire to get off the drug quickly, but better safe than sorry, eh?

 

How's the new job going?

[Katy91]

Hi Jan Carol the new job is going okay considering the problems I'm having sleeping due to nicotine withdrawal.  My brain has totally scrambled from stopping smoking.  Some nights I'm only getting 2 hours sleep though last night I got 5 hours which is doable.  I've increased melatonin to 2.5mg extended release in an attempt to improve my sleep.  Today I've felt dizzy and had a headache.  How long does smoking withdrawal last? Really there is a lack of information about it on the internet.  One site said it can take 3 months for the receptors in your brain to go back to normal.  I'm on 3.05mg Olanzapine and I'm holding until I have some decent regular sleep.  I think I've screwed my brain through smoking.  The first time I went crazy (before I took any psych drugs) I had quit smoking 4 months before it happened.  Does this mean my brain is predisposed to stress now for the rest of my days, making it inevitable I will go nuts again?  

[JanCarol]

Oh Katy, I don't think you are screwed.

 

It just takes time, and it may be scary sometimes - but the chemical compound called "cigarette" (I won't even grace it with a "tobacco" misnomer) does all kinds of things to the neurotransmitters, including serotonin and GABA and surely others.

 

The Olanzapine will do 2 things:  It will soften the blow of the cigarette withdrawal, and it will lower your impulse control, making it too easy to give in and go back.

 

I still think you would benefit from holding an extra week a month.  A relentless, linear taper - you might need some extra time for your brain to catch up to your taper schedule.  I recognize that it is a microtaper - but if you keep pounding, with no breaks, your symptoms will overwhelm your intentions.  GIve yourself a break, take a break.  Hold for 3 weeks every now and then.

 

Rhis's Start Small Listen to Body Taper Plan

 

I just found a bunch of notes for you - I don't know why I missed them before, but I did.....

 

You said:

 

 I'm just sick of every day being the same, a feeling of boredom and pointlessness, watching the clock all day at work and then even watching the clock when I get home. 

 

See:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2873-anhedonia-apathy-demotivation/

 

This is really common on the drugs and in withdrawal.  By numbing the "bad emotions" (sadness, "depression") the drugs do an excellent job at numbing the good ones, too.

 

Feeling does come back - and usually the first ones to come are the ones you wanted to repress in the first place.  Sadness, helplessness, anger, fear.  When those feelings come, remind yourself:  "I'm having feelings, and this is a good thing.  I'm learning to feel again."

 

You write:

 

The fact is I do have a depressing life with or without psych drugs.  I hate my job, have very few friends and have no social life or hobbies 

 

What can you do about that?  Follow your pleasure instead of running from the pain.  If you have anhedonia, this may be more about distraction until the anhedonia passes.  But if this is the way you've structured your life, your depression is telling you something:  that you need a change.

 

Some people find a community in church, or in craft (I was never good at craft, so I do colouring books), or in volunteering to feed the hungry, or clothe the homeless.  Maybe there is a local charity or animal shelter where you could volunteer?  Would you consider a pet?  Even people who have fish for pets (i.e., not cuddly) can get involved in creating an optimum environment for their pets.

 

A depression is an opportunity.  It is your body's way of telling you something.  What is that something?  What would you like to do?  Set your imagination free:  if you could do anything, what would it be?  Safari in Africa?  Pilgimage to India or Israel? 

 

Also - how much time do you spend in nature?  Even a short 10-20 minute walk per day and you can find yourself observing more.  They call it Forest Bathing, and there are groups who do this?

 

Engage your senses, to the best of your ability.  Strive to taste your food, to smell your soap, to touch the fabrics you wear, to see beautiful things, to hear beautiful music or birdsong or waves on a beach.  This is called mindfulness, and there are a million ways to practice it.

 

Here are just a few:

Mindfulness and Acceptance

 

More to come...

[JanCarol]

Hi Katy - you wrote:

 

 I had thought it was going quite well but then last week I started waking up at 5am.  I thought I was okay with a bit less sleep but on Friday I felt wrong.  Like I had a hole in my chest and stomach and that there was something wrong with me.  It was like an anxious, fearful feeling and also feeling upset. 

 

I think you will be helped by learning about cortisol cycles and cortisol spikes:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/33-waking-with-panic-or-anxiety-managing-cortisol-spikes/

 

Some people use melatonin to help with these.  Some people find very little helps, other than a cool cloth, a dark room - what works for different people is unique, as you will find when reading the thread.

 

Then you wrote:

 

I can't seem to find threads on gaba or passion flower so I don't know what other people think of them.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/8933-kavinace-phenibut-or-phenyl-gaba-for-sleep/

 

I was on GABA for awhile - but switched to inositol.  They seem to work about equally for me.   I haven't been on any GABA based psych drugs, either.  I cannot tell that either supplement has done anything other than cost money.   You might wish to avoid it.  My ortho-doc says GABA or Inositol can be used for calming, but only one or the other, never both.

 

Thing about supplements, most people find they work for a short time, then poop out, sometimes just after a couple of days.  They are at worst, a dangerous experiment, and often at best, a waste of time and money.

 

And

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2836-supplements-what-helps-what-doesnt/

 

As well as:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/606-important-topics-about-tests-supplements-treatments-diet/

 

You wrote:

 

 I'm sure I could qualify for a diagnosis of CFS but I'm not in the market for anymore diagnoses. 

 

LOL!  It is what I tell people when I communicate to outsiders about my condition.  It is easier for me to say "CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia" than is to say, "iatrogenically induced adrenal and kidney fatigue with bone pain and IBS."  My doctor does the same, when she wants to order tests, she just tells the lab I have "Hashimotos" when I never did.  It's just easier to communicate than the truth!

 

There are many in here who believe that their "CFS" or "Hashimotos" were induced by the gut, hormonal, amino, and neurotransmitter cascade disruptions caused by the psych drugs.

 

Also - you mentioned headaches.  I was watching a video by Dr. Stasha Gominak - a headache specialist.  She started running all of her headache patients through sleep studies.  A large percentage of them got better when she put them on CPAP treatment (but she didn't like CPAP, as patient compliance was difficult).  THEN, she tested them all for B12 and Vitamin D.  What she found was that only the severest cases (and these are not just headaches, but a whole practice of symptoms) was B12 deficient - but that in 99% of her patients, there was a D deficiency.  I don't know whether you headaches are just a withdrawal symptom, or something you've had often in your life (like me) - but I found that information to be fascinating.

 

I hope you are feeling better.

[Katy91]

Thanks for your posting JanCarol I do appreciate you taking the time.  Today is the first day I've felt overally positive.  I have recovered from the insomnia induced by quitting fags and sleep fairly well.  I've had a few days of feeling hungover and tiredness but today I felt okay even though I didn't sleep any better.  I keep having the feeling I want to cry which is a nightmare when you're trapped in an office and even worse if you're in a meeting room and there is nowhere to hide.  

 

I've reached 2.5mg olanzapine which is a major milestone.  In the past I would drop from 5mg to 2.5mg and would immediately develop intractable insomnia that did not resolve even a year later.  I think melatonin has a lot to do with me sleeping well now.  In fact I will go so far as to say I never need end up in the mental hospital again on the basis that I have an on tap powerful sedative that I am willing to take.  Melatonin is a sedative even if it is classed as a natural supplement.  A couple of weeks ago I was taking  2.5mg melatonin and it knocked me out and made me feel groggy in the day - what would happen if I took 5 or even 10?  Of course there is the question of would melatonin work if I was put under extreme pressure but I believe it would.  Anyway aside from dealing with mild feelings of being hungover and tired and also wanting to cry I think the rest of my withdrawal from olanzapine should be a breeze.  I should be off at the end of April 2016 continuing to cut at 0.1mg a week.

[Altostrata]

Hi, Katy -- most probably, if you took a lot more melatonin, it wouldn't do anything. Melatonin is one of those things with a "sweet spot." In fact, you might find if you took less, it might work as well for sleep without the grogginess.

 

Good to hear your taper is going well. Don't rush it -- now you're down to 2.5mg, cutting 0.1mg a week amounts to .4mg a month or a 16% decrease. It sounds like that is starting to affect you. You might want to take a hold now through the holidays and resume decreasing at perhaps .1mg every  2 weeks.

[simack]

Hey Katy just checking in to see how your going, hopefully the taper is going well

[Katy91]

Things aren't going great.  I'm on 2,2mg Olanzapine now and I'm not sleeping well.  I mostly get off okay but for the past couple of weeks I cannot sleep past 5am and in some cases I wake at 3am.  I also feel the urge to jump out of bed at this time, there's no yawning and cosying up in bed, just pure alertness.  It takes me right back to how things used to be last time I withdrew.  I am probably having these days where I feel like I can't take it for 50% of the week.  I'm upping the melatonin to 2.5mg tonight.  Trying to read the cortisol page but feel to knackered to be able to concentrate.  Maybe l'll give 5-htp a try next.     

[simack]

Hey Katy, sorry to hear to hear things aren't going that well for you, hopefully the increase in melatonin will help with the insomnia, and things will start leveling out soon. I've been having similar troubles trying to switch over to liquid olanzapine, just need to be strong and hang in there I guess.

[JanCarol]

Hey Katy, I wouldn't recommend 5HtP or SAM-e or St John's Wort - they all work on the same neurotransmitters.  See what other people have experienced here:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9933-5-htp-5-hydroxytryptophan-and-l-tryptophan/

and

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/572-sam-e-s-adenosyl-l-methionine/

 

You would do better to get your vitamin D levels checked.  Are you taking Magnesium and Omega-3 fish oil?  These will help you heal more smoothly.

 

The 3-5 am awakening is definitely in the pattern of cortisol awakenings (I posted a link above).  Some people take cool showers, or use eye masks or blackout curtains to prevent cortisol awakenings.

 

I wonder about the melatonin you are using - do you buy it in the UK or import it from the US?  Because the UK is like Australia - the melatonin available is only homeopathic, which contains no active ingredients - only the "vibration" of them.

 

And Alto is right - sometimes less of the melatonin is better than more.  It's not a sedative, it's only a signal that tells your brain it's okay to sleep.  If the signal is too strong, it will go paradoxical on you.  1 mg is a common dose.  Some people take less.

 

Please slow down your taper - you are having symptoms.  If you hold now, and hold for awhile - a month or two (always good to hold over Christmas anyway) your brain will have a chance to catch up to your symptoms.

 

I hope you see the sun today!

[Katy91]

I feel like an absolute sack of sh*t.  I cannot stop waking at 4am and I am throwing every supplement I have at it.  I am taking 2.5mg melatonin and it is imported from the US, 5-htp, gaba and passion flower.  I'm giving it 3 more nights then I'm yanking the olanzapine back up to 2.5mg.

 

I been suffering from obsessive thoughts, my brain just keeps going on and on and on and I know it's doing me no good.  I'm constantly reading psychology books to try and find some hope.  I've got no friends, it's my birthday next week and I have to lie to people at work that I do go out and have friends so that I come across as a 'normal' person.  I do have feelings again now, a lot of pain and sadness but maybe this is only natural given the mourning I have to do for how my life has been ruined and how it could of been different.  I don't experience joy or happiness but occasionally I have a feeling of peace.  I've lost about 7 pounds in a month and I don't think about food all the time now.  I am holding the taper now for at least a month or until my sleep improves.  I have started to lose confidence that I can get off this drug.

 

I go for a half hour walk every day so I don't think there is a problem with my vitamin d levels Jan.  I have an adverse reaction to magnesium where it keeps my awake all night I've tried enough times with that.

 

I hate my mother.

[wantmyhubbyback]

hi, katy -- my hubby has the obsessive racing thoughts issue also and finds that it helps to get out of bed (yes, even at 3am) because it's worse to just lie there trying to calm down.

 

he's a fan of reading paul david's book "at last a life," which has some useful ideas about how to cope with anxiety and dread. (of course, it's hard for hubby to be able to concentrate long enough to read, but he will try to get thru a paragraph or 2 at a time, and it seems to help calm him down).

 

hang in there -- might be useful to read back thru your thread and see that, at turns, you've felt better. you will again. hang in there.

 

 

 

 

I been suffering from obsessive thoughts, my brain just keeps going on and on and on and I know it's doing me no good. 

[Marsha]

Hi Katy. I am tapering off geodon also antipsychotic drug. This is my third attempt. I also have autonomic instability in the form of insomnia. Some nights 0 sleep. I get reassurance from the members here to try to stay calm that it will pass. I know its really hard not to let myself become overcome with anxiety about what bad thing is going to happen next. I think we share a lot in common in our struggle to free ourselves from antipsychotic drugs. It is so very hard. But I must have the confidence that I will succeed in getting off this drug that has plagued me for so many years. For some of us the journey is fraught with so many seeming roadblocks. I understand completely your struggles as I am going through the same thing. Maybe just knowing someone else is experiencing the same struggles can be a way to cope. Just reading your posts helps me because I am not alone.

[JanCarol]

Hey Katy, I'm sorry you're having a rough go of it.

 

5HtP is famous for causing problems, maybe consider stopping that before updosing your Olanzapine?

 

You wrote:

 

 

I go for a half hour walk every day so I don't think there is a problem with my vitamin d levels Jan.  

 

Actually, anyone who lives above the 34th parallel doesn't really get much from the sun, especially in winter.  Something like 40-60% of people in these latitudes have some form of D deficiency, that is why I suggested you check it.

 

The daily walk is awesome though!  I don't always love my daily walks, but I do feel so much better when I do them.

 

Have we told you about Neuro-emotion ?  It's really important to recognize that these extreme emotions are not you, they are withdrawal.  It takes away their power over you, if you can say, "this feeling is just a symptom," or "this is a neuro-emotion," It helps stop the cycle of rumination.

 

Again, and again, I've said this every time.  Please hold and stabilize.  Rhi said it like this:  

 

You can't get off the drug (without major instability) faster than your brain can re-adapt itself to the absence of the drug. 

 

You can succeed, and the best way to do this is to slow down and let your brain catch up to your taper.  I see that you are planning to hold through Christmas, but please throw away the calendar.  Just plan on holding until you feel well enough to try again.  You can do this, you are so close now.  The times we hold, are the times we heal.

 

I hope you feel better, and that you see the sun today.

[Katy91]

I am now convinced that the reason I am suffering obsessive thoughts is due to my brain being flooded with dopamine.  Dopamine also plays a part in the sleep wake cycle.  Melatonin reduces the impact of dopamine.  I'm increasing the Melatonin to 3mg.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12043836

[Petunia]

Hi Katy,

Why do you think your brain is flooded with dopamine?

 

Obsessive thoughts are very common withdrawal symptoms and from your signature it looks like you have come off several drugs over the last 2 years and now are tapering olanzapine. Your nervous system is probably very destabilized from all the drug changes. Did you taper Lithium, Lorazapam and Diazepam?

 

And you are throwing a lot of supplements in there too, this also can have a destabilizing effect.

 

 

... I am throwing every supplement I have at it.  I am taking 2.5mg melatonin and it is imported from the US, 5-htp, gaba and passion flower.  I'm giving it 3 more nights then I'm yanking the olanzapine back up to 2.5mg.

 

 

This is not good. You need to make changes slowly and one thing at a time. Please read:  The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

 

As JanCarol wrote above, please hold and give yourself a chance to stabilize. You can do this, but its going to take some time.

[Katy91]

Hi Petunia,

 

Olanzapine is a dopamine antagonist so reducing the dose is like taking the break off. Really I am attempting to explain my obsessive thoughts though the first time I became obsessed was in my 20's and then I was not on.prescribed drugs but lots of alcohol and some street drugs so I don't know. Part of me wonders if the obsessive thoughts are really not a distraction from facing a painful truth.

 

I have dropped the 5-htp. I have caught another cold which I think may be contributing to my continuing insomnia, surprisingly I don't feel that bad though. I am holding until I get some decent sleep.

[Katy91]

I barely slept last night.  I was still awake at 4am then I got up at 8am.  I'm not sure if I'm experiencing passion flower extract withdrawal because I tried to stop it 2 nights ago.  I'm going to do a 12 day taper off it.  I'm also going to reduce the melatonin because that is clearly not working at 3mg.  I was very upset yesterday.  I spent the whole day and night crying.  That made me think it was the passion flower which I've been taking for maybe 3 weeks.  I was dreading going back to work today, there are so many aggressive people around and now I'm not so drugged and I have quit smoking I can feel a lot more and most of it is unpleasant and mean.  I do think quitting smoking has scrambled my brain.  I haven't really slept well for the last 3 months since I quit.  I am increasing the olanzapine to 2.75mg tonight and will probably increase again to 3.0mg on Friday.  I really need to hold my nerve.  I keep thinking that I'll end up in the mental hospital again.  I was even wishing that it was a good place to go to the other day.  But I know it is a prison staffed by hateful people who just want to pump you full of drugs.  I feel incapable of doing my job when I'm barely sleeping.  I am feeling low and fairly hopeless.

[Fresh]

Hi Katy , I suspect you're feeling so terrible because of the delayed fallout from decreasing

Olanzapine too fast.

Going through this page , things started to get rocky mid November , when Alto wrote:

 

"Good to hear your taper is going well. Don't rush it -- now you're down to 2.5mg, cutting 0.1mg a week amounts to .4mg a month or a 16% decrease. It sounds like that is starting to affect you. You might want to take a hold now through the holidays and resume decreasing at perhaps .1mg every 2 weeks."

 

More and more from what I read here , I believe you need holds during a taper , and you haven't allowed your cns to rest as you've decreased every week for the past 8 months

 

By December 9 , you'd gone down to 2.2 , and your system hasn't been able to recover yet.

Did you updose yet?

[Katy91]

Yes Fresh I updosed last light to  2.75mg. I slept for a solid 4 or 5 hours and dozed for the rest so today I have felt functional.  I might try 2.6mg tonight...oh I don't know I've been on 2.4mg for over a week and still haven't slept well.  I have serious black bags a sure sign of drug toxicity.  The insomnia could still be due to the cold aswell as quitting fags.  Some woman was telling me today she can't sleep at the moment due to a cold.  It has been a traumatic 3 months with starting a new job, 2 bouts of cold and quitting smoking so perhaps it will settle down a bit now.  

[Katy91]

I'm having a good day today even though I went to bed late-ish and woke up twice. I slept in till 9 and feel refreshed and relatively healthy.  However yesterday was sheer hell. I startled awake at 4.30am and could not get back to sleep.  Spent the whole day at work feeling weird, afraid and exhausted, trying to not speak to anyone so they won't see something is wrong with me, just waiting for the hellish day to be over.  So I've had 3 good days and 3 bad days this week.  50/50.  I'm holding at 2.75mg for a month. 

[wantmyhubbyback]

hang in there, katy. i'd give my eyeteeth for hubby to be at 2.75mg. how has the last month gone for you?