success Hibari: tapering Remeron and want to start tapering Lamictal

[Hibari]

1 hour ago, Songbird said:

 

Did you try the relaxing yoga video?  Doing this three times a day was the only thing that helped my extreme akathisia.  

 

I also used a sleep hynosis recording which enabled me to get to sleep.  I woke up each time it finished, so just replayed it again, to get through the night.  The one I used doesn't seem to be on YouTube, but there are lots of others there you could try. 

 

Also check out our topic where people have posted their favourites: Relaxation exercises, guided meditations, calming videos, sleep hypnosis

 

Thank you Songbird. 

 

Nor, not the yoga video but sowm breathing exercises I can do lying down.  

[Songbird]

I really recommend the yoga one, because with akathisia it's hard to stop moving, and this video begins with gentle movements, working to very gradually slow the body down.

[Rosetta]

I'm sorry you were crying.  I'm sorry this is happening to you.  I know exactly what you are feeling.  I came to the point that Xanax made it worse for me.  I have nothing else in the category of substances to offer you, of course, because taking drugs other than mag and Omega 3 are risky.  Even taking mag and Omega 3 can cause problems.  

 

I believe I kindled myself with Trazodone and Xanax.  I believe I started getting well because I stopped trying to add substances.  That's what I want for you -- for you to get well, but more than that I don't want you to get worse.  I assume you know all about the concept of kindling.   I think it can kill people, quite frankly, by causing them to give up on healing.  You will get through this.  You will get well.  I'm sorry that suffering through until your system calms down is the only option I can see, but I honestly believe that kindling can put you in the hospital.  I could be wrong, and you have to decide for yourself.  I hope you make the right choice.  

 

I'm so sorry this is happening.  Songbird's yoga idea is a good one.  I know it's hard to make yourself do it, but keep trying until it helps.  Do you have a heating pad?  That helped me.  

 

I'll be thinking of you, R

[Hibari]

10 hours ago, Rosetta said:

I'm sorry you were crying.  I'm sorry this is happening to you.  I know exactly what you are feeling.  I came to the point that Xanax made it worse for me.  I have nothing else in the category of substances to offer you, of course, because taking drugs other than mag and Omega 3 are risky.  Even taking mag and Omega 3 can cause problems.  

 

I believe I kindled myself with Trazodone and Xanax.  I believe I started getting well because I stopped trying to add substances.  That's what I want for you -- for you to get well, but more than that I don't want you to get worse.  I assume you know all about the concept of kindling.   I think it can kill people, quite frankly, by causing them to give up on healing.  You will get through this.  You will get well.  I'm sorry that suffering through until your system calms down is the only option I can see, but I honestly believe that kindling can put you in the hospital.  I could be wrong, and you have to decide for yourself.  I hope you make the right choice.  

 

I'm so sorry this is happening.  Songbird's yoga idea is a good one.  I know it's hard to make yourself do it, but keep trying until it helps.  Do you have a heating pad?  That helped me.  

 

I'll be thinking of you, R

Thank you Rosetta. I understand your concern and I take it to heart.  

 

I've looked a lot through the self-care section on the site to make some conscious choices.  I'm going to keep things at a minimum.  

 

I did see Altos suggestion to try melatonin for sleep and I tried it last night. I was able to sleep and remembered it had helped me once before.  If I can turn to it to get some some nights of sleep underneath me, it will so helpful.  I dont think that falls into the kindling category.  

 

While keeping things simple for the body is important I can't put all supplements and vitamins in to the kindling catagory.

Monica in Beyond Meds explored and used a lot of amino acids, supplements and herbs to heal herself. I know other members here rotate different aminos and herbs to get relief.  

 

However I do agree with you that using medication or medication like substances would lead to kindling.  

 

I do appreciate your care and concern for me.  

[Hibari]

Slept last night after taking a small amount of melatonin. So happy it worked.  

 

Anxious today and very tired from from the all day akathisia yesterday.  

 

I am gong to keep my focus on letting this reinstatement of 0.40mgs settle in my body and see if that will help reduce the other acute symptoms.  

 

I also have to just keep reminding myself that all of this is the result of being overmedicated due to the heavy handedness of numerous psychiatrists. That getting better is the job I have chosen.

 

 I get very down when I'm focus on how far I have fallen and what I need to rebuild but for now, I can't do anything about it.  

 

I know others have rebuilt their lives and continue to do so.  

 

[Rosetta]

I know you have been struggling a long time.  I hope the anxiety wears off and you can rest a bit today.

[wantrelief]

I am so glad you were able to get some sleep, Hibari.  I hope the anxiety dissipates and you can rest.  Thinking about you - WR.

[Hibari]

59 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

I know you have been struggling a long time.  I hope the anxiety wears off and you can rest a bit today.

Hi, the anxiety has worn off but I am not in a state of rage.  I guess that's better than akathisia.  

[Hibari]

54 minutes ago, wantrelief said:

I am so glad you were able to get some sleep, Hibari.  I hope the anxiety dissipates and you can rest.  Thinking about you - WR.

Thank you WR.  I am so angry today, I can barely stand it.  

[wantrelief]

41 minutes ago, Hibari said:

Thank you WR.  I am so angry today, I can barely stand it.  

I am so very sorry, Hibari.  It is understandable that you would feel anger given everything you've been through with these drugs.  This journey can be beyond frustrating.  

[Altostrata]

HIbari, we need to see those daily notes! What is happening before and after you take Lamictal?

 

We have many people here in dire  straits. We can't prescribe, we don't know what to prescribe, all we can do is tell them to hold on. The nervous system tends to stabilize, but it does so slowly.

 

It could very well be that the small amount of lamotrigine you reinstated finally took effect and calmed your nervous system enough so you respond well to melatonin. How much melatonin are you taking? Be sure not to take too much. More is not better.

 

This subtle effect of Lamictal is what we expect. It seems to me this low dose is going well. Please don't change a winning combination, even if you hit a rough patch.

 

As Rosetta said, you are kindling yourself by taking various things out of desperation. We see a lot of this, too. The way to avoid kindling is 1) take only tiny trial doses; 2) keep notes about what happens; 3) if you get a bad reaction, reduce the dosage!

 

You will have to surf the waves. Your error has been always to increase the dosage when you hit a bad patch. Although it seems the advice you get from staff is ineffectual, since we so often tell you to stop changing things and hold on, that's what you need to do to give your nervous system time to settle down.

 

If we knew of a drug treatment that would straighten you out, we wouldn't keep it from you. You need to get past the idea that the only fix for your situation is some drug or special combination of drugs. As a matter of fact, Lamictal is one of the few things we know about that can help settle the nervous system, but you have to use it carefully and not expect an immediate fix.

[Hibari]

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

HIbari, we need to see those daily notes! What is happening before and after you take Lamictal?

 

We have many people here in dire  straits. We can't prescribe, we don't know what to prescribe, all we can do is tell them to hold on. The nervous system tends to stabilize, but it does so slowly.

 

It could very well be that the small amount of lamotrigine you reinstated finally took effect and calmed your nervous system enough so you respond well to melatonin. How much melatonin are you taking? Be sure not to take too much. More is not better.

 

This subtle effect of Lamictal is what we expect. It seems to me this low dose is going well. Please don't change a winning combination, even if you hit a rough patch.

 

Yes, Alto I think the 0.40mgs of Lamictal in a divided dose may be working. 

 

Here Is the past two days (including today's notes).

 

Sunday, 12/2/18     Day 9 of reinstatement

No Sleep

Morning Cortisol Spike:  (Sweating, anxiety, adrenaline surges, trembling, mental anguish (no nausea or headache) 

8:00AM  75 mgs Thyroid

8:30AM  0.20 Liquid Lamictal      Cant's tell if there is any reaction due to the corisol spike

9:30AM  .25 Clonazapam              Doesn't do anything

12:25     ..25 clonazapam              Doesn't do anything

Akathesia all day

3PM                                                  Take some milk peptides capsules

8:30PM   0.20 Liquid Lamictal     Feel tiny speedy but not bad

Akathesia till about 9PM             

10PM   0.625 mg Melatonin        Feel sleepy

Sleep

 

Monday 12/3/18

Sleep

Morning Cortisol Spike: Sweating, headache, low grade anxiety (No nausea)

8:00AM 75 mgs Thyroid

8:30AM 0.20mgs liquid lamictal       1/2 later don't feel any reaction Don't really feel any reaction

10AM-12                                               Feel uncontrollable rage about this process and about my former psychiatrist, so some hitting and yelling into a pillow.

1-4                                                          Eat lunch, therapy, grief, anger frustration and a headache. 

 

 

[Hibari]

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

t could very well be that the small amount of lamotrigine you reinstated finally took effect and calmed your nervous system enough so you respond well to melatonin. How much melatonin are you taking? Be sure not to take too much. More is not better.

 

This subtle effect of Lamictal is what we expect. It seems to me this low dose is going well. Please don't change a winning combination, even if you hit a rough patch.

 

As Rosetta said, you are kindling yourself by taking various things out of desperation. We see a lot of this, too. The way to avoid kindling is 1) take only tiny trial doses; 2) keep notes about what happens; 3) if you get a bad reaction, reduce the dosage!

 

Melatonin dose:  0.625  I only have 5mg tablets so I keep halving them to the smallest amount and it seemed to work.

 

Does taking things include vitamins or supplements?   Meaning if I can't sleep and I try milk peptides and they work, can I still take them? 

[Hibari]

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

You will have to surf the waves. Your error has been always to increase the dosage when you hit a bad patch. Although it seems the advice you get from staff is ineffectual, since we so often tell you to stop changing things and hold on, that's what you need to do to give your nervous system time to settle down.

 

If we knew of a drug treatment that would straighten you out, we wouldn't keep it from you. You need to get past the idea that the only fix for your situation is some drug or special combination of drugs. As a matter of fact, Lamictal is one of the few things we know about that can help settle the nervous system, but you have to use it carefully and not expect an immediate fix.

 

I think I did not understand what reinstatement stabilizing looked like.    What would that look like Alto? 

 

Since I have experienced excruciating waves of akathesia for 8-9 hours a day, I thought that meant things were not working. 

 

I truly believe you are all trying to help. 

 

Believe or not, my intention is to get stable on this Lamictal dose so I can stabilize and eventually taper.  

 

My desperation was not about the lamictal, it was more about how to get through the 8-9 hours of akathesia  and mental anquish that have been happening every other day since mid October.   Both before and after I stopped taking the med for that two week period.

 

I was looking for ways to get through that and made the assumption that a tiny increase in the Lamictal would ease it. 

 

Also the lack of sleep, which usually signals a day of mental and physical akathesia devastating to my system. 

[Altostrata]

I understand how bad it is, Hibari, and why you are desperately trying things. We see many people doing this.

 

You saw things get worse after you quit. If things improve just a little bit after reinstating a little Lamictal, that's a good sign that you're on the track. Your nervous system is complicated and is not going to settle down right away. It settles down little by little.

 

You don't want to take so much Lamictal that it upsets your nervous system, which is what you did before. You really need to stop thinking more is better.

 

Stabilizing is a process, it doesn't happen all at once. It has ups and downs. You need to give it time. With your current dose of Lamictal, you're sleeping better. This is a small but significant improvement. If I were you, I would stay the course.

 

Your occasional use of clonazepam is of great concern to us. You can also overshoot on clonazepam dosage and cause adverse or paradoxical reactions that are quite severe, such as excessive alerting and akathisia. Please stop bringing clonazepam into the mix.

 

You have anxiety over your anxiety. You must work to remove that layer of self-generated distress. You need to step back and observe. You are separate from your iatrogenic (drug-caused) condition. We know this requires an almost superhuman

 

24 minutes ago, Hibari said:

Melatonin dose:  0.625  I only have 5mg tablets so I keep halving them to the smallest amount and it seemed to work.

 

Does taking things include vitamins or supplements?   Meaning if I can't sleep and I try milk peptides and they work, can I still take them? 

 

You can talk milk peptides. Melatonin should not contain any other vitamins. Look on your package to see.

 

Since this dose is working, I would stick with it. Please keep your daily notes.

[DMV64]

Hi Hibari 

 I was just popping in and reading parts of your story. And I just want to say hello and also say I have several times tried to updose  to help alleviate one symptom or another. I’m on quite a cocktail of drugs. So far it really hasn’t worked out for me to do that. It either makes it worse on my body adjusts almost immediately and the helping effect goes away. Anyway that’s my experience. I hope you’re feeling better!

DMV

[Hibari]

46 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Stabilizing is a process, it doesn't happen all at once. It has ups and downs. You need to give it time. With your current dose of Lamictal, you're sleeping better. This is a small but significant improvement. If I were you, I would stay the course.

Yes, I plan to stay the course of the divided dose of 0.40mgs twice a day.   I also think the fact that I'm not getting so speedy after the doses is a sign of stabilizing too. 

47 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Your occasional use of clonazepam is of great concern to us. You can also overshoot on clonazepam dosage and cause adverse or paradoxical reactions that are quite severe, such as excessive alerting and akathisia. Please stop bringing clonazepam into the mix.

 

You have anxiety over your anxiety. You must work to remove that layer of self-generated distress. You need to step back and observe. You are separate from your iatrogenic (drug-caused) condition. We know this requires an almost superhuman

 

It concerns me too Alto.   Please understand it was a choice of last resort after days of akathesia, mental anguish and insomnia. 

 

I could not shutdown my body-nothing was helping.   I know others have felt this way-but when I want to go to the hospital 2 days in one week, it became very frightening to me and the people around me. 

Even in those awful, awful moments I knew and know it's the withdrawal and not me but I could not relax my body and mind.  

 

Having something help me sleep is a godsend for me.   I will plan to keep using the melatonin to sleep and it's a small dose.   If that dosen't work, I will rotate in another supplement. 

 

I can handle the headaches, nausea, dizziness and even the acute rebound depression.  It's the akathesia and maybe that's the wrong word for what's going on.   It's this ungodly physical/mental/emotional adrenaline state that I can't handle well at all. 

 

Thank you as always for your support of me. 

 

 

[Hibari]

8 minutes ago, DMV64 said:

Hi Hibari 

 I was just popping in and reading parts of your story. And I just want to say hello and also say I have several times tried to updose  to help alleviate one symptom or another. I’m on quite a cocktail of drugs. So far it really hasn’t worked out for me to do that. It either makes it worse on my body adjusts almost immediately and the helping effect goes away. Anyway that’s my experience. I hope you’re feeling better!

DMV

 

Yes, I know.  I am holding now to let things settle. 

 

Thank you for stopping by and I hope tings are okay with you now.

[Altostrata]

5 minutes ago, Hibari said:

I also think the fact that I'm not getting so speedy after the doses is a sign of stabilizing too. 

 

You were getting speedy from the Lamictal because your total daily dose was too high. You were having a paradoxical reaction to the doses.

 

Please continue to keep daily notes. You need to track your symptoms before and after Lamictal doses. It could be that your nervous system will eventually signal again the dosage is too high. Do not panic and increase the dosage! You'll need to very gradually reduce it to a good level.

 

This may also happen with the melatonin. While it's a fraction of your 5mg tablet, it may well be that you'll find a lower dose works better. But for now. it's working, so stick with it.

 

Don't get overanxious and add stuff like you tend to do -- you might trigger kindling.

[DMV64]

6 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

you might trigger kindling.

I see this mentioned a lot lately here and other places. This is when multiple ups and downs make each withdrawal worse right?

[Hibari]

10 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

You were getting speedy from the Lamictal because your total daily dose was too high. You were having a paradoxical reaction to the doses.

 

Please continue to keep daily notes. You need to track your symptoms before and after Lamictal doses. It could be that your nervous system will eventually signal again the dosage is too high. Do not panic and increase the dosage! You'll need to very gradually reduce it to a good level.

 

This may also happen with the melatonin. While it's a fraction of your 5mg tablet, it may well be that you'll find a lower dose works better. But for now. it's working, so stick with it.

 

Don't get overanxious and add stuff like you tend to do -- you might trigger kindling.

 

Yes I remember.  

 

I will keep tracking my reaction to the Lamictal. 

 

Good to know that if I have a speedy reaction, it means I will need to gradually reduce.  I will check with you first though! 

 

I will also keep an eye on the melatonin. 

 

I will not add stuff but I will reach out for sleep help if I need it.  Not just sleep hygiene but actually things to help with sleep. 

[Altostrata]

No, kindling means you trigger worse activation symptoms, such as anxiety surges and akathisia. Please use search on this site for our discussions about kindling.

[DMV64]

11 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Please use search on this site for our discussions about kindling.

Ok. I had just googled it and it had said the thing about withdrawals being subsequently worse. I'll search here, thanks.

[Rabe]

Thinking of you Hibari...take care of yourself!!  Reach in...inside yourself and in this forum...not out...k? Love and hugs!!!💜

[Rabe]

@Songbird Could you tell me what the relaxing video is Songbird?  Thanks so much!!

[Songbird]

3 hours ago, Rabe said:

@Songbird Could you tell me what the relaxing video is Songbird?  Thanks so much!!

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/6122-relaxation-exercises-guided-meditations-calming-videos-sleep-hypnosis/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-390065

 

[Hibari]

So last night at 2am I started trembling again.  (melatonin did not work for sleep)  

 

I did some research and really believe it's the cortisol surges that start and can't stop.  There's is a phase that happens between 10pm-2am and then the one later at 4am. 

 

I am honoring my commitment not to just take anything to jolt my system but if any of mods have suggestions for this cortisol dumping condition, I would be grateful.  

 

I don't feel depressed but it is very physically painful to be in this state.  Again, I tried breathing exercises but it's deeper than that.  My cortisol is over producing and keeping me from relaxing.  

 

I maybe asking the same question I have asked before but I never made the cortisol connection so clearly before.  

 

 

 

 

[Hibari]

Log:

Monday 12/3/18

Sleep

Morning Cortisol Spike: Sweating, headache, low grade anxiety (No nausea)

8:00AM 75 mgs Thyroid

8:30AM 0.20mgs liquid lamictal       1/2 later don't feel any reaction to the med.

10AM-12                                               Feel uncontrollable rage about this process and about my former psychiatrist, did  some hitting and yelling into a pillow.

1-4                                                          Eat lunch, therapy, grief, anger frustration and a headache.   5-10 Stress

4PM                                                       Talk with a friend

6PM Dinner

8PM                                                      Cry on phone with a friend,

8:30  0.20mgs liquid Lamictal         1/2 later a little bit speedy

9PM                                                      Heat flash

11PM Bed  0.625 Melatonin             feel Relaxed but not sleepy, still have headache

11:30PM 81mgs Baby Aspirin

2AM                                                      Start trembling, wide awake

 

Tuesday 12/4/18

No Sleep

Morning Cortisol Spike:                  Wired and Tired,  Extreme physical tension, can't relax, adrenaline surges, no nausea, no headache

8AM       75 mg Thryroid

8:30AM  0.20mg Liquid Lamictal    Wonder why I am continuing to try to keep going with wd.  

  

 

[Rabe]

Hi Hibari, just wanted you to know there is link for the cortisol spikes if you put it in the search here.  Most are more familiar with them than they would like to be. Rosetta might be a good one to talk to about them and what might help as she has been having them for a long time.  I woke several times last night with them...some worse than others.  I am so sorry you are dealing with these.  They talk about black out curtains and or an eye mask to keep the darkness out...I use a blanket I have but obviously that is not as good.  I know you will get help with it and admire you strength in sticking to your commitment to ask for help.  As always, thinking  about you and sending big hugs!!💜 

[Hibari]

8 minutes ago, Rabe said:

Hi Hibari, just wanted you to know there is link for the cortisol spikes if you put it in the search here.  Most are more familiar with them than they would like to be. Rosetta might be a good one to talk to about them and what might help as she has been having them for a long time.  I woke several times last night with them...some worse than others.  I am so sorry you are dealing with these.  They talk about black out curtains and or an eye mask to keep the darkness out...I use a blanket I have but obviously that is not as good.  I know you will get help with it and admire you strength in sticking to your commitment to ask for help.  As always, thinking  about you and sending big hugs!!💜 

Thank you Rabe. It means so much to me that you keep stopping by my thread to offer support.  

 

Yes, I sleep with a mask and have very dark curtains. 

 

I dont have any perspective on my progress at this point.  I feel I'm stuck in limbo right now.  I was hoping I would start to see some relief in my symptoms, though I know I have upset my system in the past few weeks.  

 

Gosh, I wish I saw signs I was getting more stable and healing.  It would offer me so much optimism.  

 

I'm back on the couch today and underneath the covers with a heating pad.  

[Rabe]

If it means anything I think you have come a very long way though it may not feel like it because right now is more challenging.  You have more perspective, you are asking for advice and help rather than what you were doing before...you are very much better I think but I understand what you are saying as most days I feel I have made no progress at and when in the waves it is hard for our minds to think of anything else.  

Im grateful you are resting with the heating pad...I did nothing all weekend...it is so hard but it will help you to rest your system.  💜

[Hibari]

Thank you Rabe.  I know you know how hard it is to just endure these days. 

 

On one level I know how courageous it is and on another level in feel like a complete failure for not getting better faster.  I guess the biggest fear is, what if it never happens for me?  

 

All the medication withdrawal sites I visit say, everyone heals but its hard to believe on days like today.  

 

I guess I am needing reassurance that I can make it and will heal from this awful experience.  

[Rabe]

2 hours ago, Hibari said:

On one level I know how courageous it is and on another level in feel like a complete failure for not getting better faster.  I guess the biggest fear is, what if it never happens for me?  

 

All the medication withdrawal sites I visit say, everyone heals but its hard to believe on days like today.  

 

I guess I am needing reassurance that I can make it and will heal from this awful experience.  

I understand the above Hibari...I worry about that everyday...what if I am NEVer the person I was...what if this is endless?  I had such awful anxiety and panic for as long as I remembered and tried any different therapies and techniques but nothing helped, hence the medication.  I do fear I will not be able to function and yet that my system will not be able to make it through all of this.  

But i read over and over how people do...you will heal...maybe not as fast as any of us would wish...but you will heal.💜

[Hibari]

I wish that for you too Rabe.  

[Hibari]

Ongoing Logs:

Log:

Monday 12/3/18                                                    Day 10 of Reinstatement

Sleep

Morning Cortisol Spike: Sweating, headache, low grade anxiety (No nausea)

8:00AM 75 mgs Thyroid

8:30AM 0.20mgs liquid lamictal                              1/2 later don't feel any reaction to the med.

10AM-12                                                                       Feel uncontrollable rage about this process and about my former psychiatrist, did  some hitting and yelling into a pillow.

1-4                                                                                   Eat lunch, therapy, grief, anger frustration and a headache.   5-10 Stress

4PM                                                                                Talk with a friend

6PM Dinner

8PM                                                                               Cry on phone with a friend,

8:30  0.20mgs liquid Lamictal                                   1/2 later a little bit speedy

9PM                                                                                 Heat flash

11PM Bed  0.625 Melatonin                                       Feel relaxed but not sleepy, still have headache

11:30PM 81mgs Baby Aspirin

2AM                                                                                 Start trembling, wide awake

 

Tuesday 12/4/18                                                    Day 11 of Reinstatement

No Sleep

Morning Cortisol Spike:                                             Wired and Tired,  Extreme physical tension, can't relax, adrenaline surges, (no nausea, no headache)

8AM       75 mg Thryroid

8:30AM  0.20mg Liquid Lamictal                              Wonder why I am continuing to try to keep going with wd.  

9:00AM                                                                         Feel some nausea but only took the med with a banana

12:00PM 1 omega, 1 mag

1PM                                                                              Cried with a friend over the fear I won't heal

1-3                                                                                 Still wired and tired

  

[Hibari]

This has continued to be a hard day.  

 

I an trying to separate out me from my drug caused condition.  

 

The cortisol surges really stay with me all day.