Redmanone: Withdrawing from invega sustenna

[Redmanone]

Sorry if i offendended anyone, im so depressed. Its either this feel suicidal for me. I really am hoping im on the way to recovery.

[AliG]

 I don't think you offended anyone, I just think no one understood , what you were saying.  I know I didn't.  I don't know what "drunk, af means. Wishing you well. Hang in there.

[Redmanone]

Thanks aliG it means i was really drunk at the time, im sober now though. Thanks for the best of wishes!

[AliG]

 I understand, Red.  This is a "nightmare".  Stay strong.  These feelings will pass.

[Redmanone]

Are you going through neuroleptic torture as well?? Im sorry but tonight i kinda splurgged and let myself go....:

[AliG]

 I'm going through "torture" for sure.  Neuroleptic ??  Maybe.  What do you mean - splurgged & ley myself go.?

[Redmanone]

Nuerolepric means an antipsychotic. And i mean that i got really drunk and took some stimulants in hope that id see some what of a good time tonight.

[AliG]

 I can understand that, but having said that, it's probably not a good idea, particularly in "withdrawal".  However, I understand, what you're going through.

[InvisibleUnless]

hey man, i definitely understand the urge to alter your mental state to try to get back to anything more normal than total antipsychotic-induced destruction.  i think, for some people, it may be inevitable that certain attempts are made.  so, ill give the same warning everyone else has been, which is that you may be delaying your recovery or complicating problems that already exist.  but i do understand, and ive done a bit of drinking or smoking weed here and there in the past three years for social enjoyment.

 

the important thing to remember, if you are indulging in that sort of behavior, is to give yourself time to recover from the additional stress of added substances---more than youd normally give yourself (if you werent a daily user sort of guy or at least took a breath every now and then).  going at things less hardcore than before meds, knowing when to pull back instead of pushing over the edge, and having ample rest and recovery (good foods, sleep, neurological downtime, etc) are central to balancing enjoyment of emotions with not totally derailing your recovery.

 

you may feel that its worth it, or that your body is handling things alright enough to have binges or whatever, but pay close attention to your state of mind each time, because you may not always react in the same manner.  wishing you some peace.

[Redmanone]

Invisible. Would using adderall be beneficial or hinder my progression to recovery. Btw i tried 30mg last night and felt pretty good. Not high, just good. So my question is would it hinder my recovery or help it as it is a stimulant.

[Redmanone]

Would it be beneficial for my receptors or would it hurt them?

[LucaDiProspero]

hi redmanone,

I searched a lot about stimulants on the web in the past months, also I asked for them to some doctors.

Same answers: instant addiction, low tolerance, good emotions for the first 1-2 weeks then anhedonia worsens so I kicked stimulants away from my list.

I tried 1 pill of wellbutrin some days ago and all I got from it was a racing heart and some insomnia. Bleh!

[InvisibleUnless]

Invisible. Would using adderall be beneficial or hinder my progression to recovery. Btw i tried 30mg last night and felt pretty good. Not high, just good. So my question is would it hinder my recovery or help it as it is a stimulant.

 

 

Would it be beneficial for my receptors or would it hurt them?

i dont know enough about stimulants as a class to really be specific, but i can look into it more for you. but the bottom line is this: drugs like that are fatiguing, and they act neurologically. this means there is a high likelihood of it interfering with your recovery, either now or in the future through continued use or continued progress through your recovery phases.

 

as a short term measure to situationally feel like you have your wits about you again, a few days here or there, it may or may not kick up a massive shitstorm and cause you serious regret. it could be that you could have a bit of temporarily returned functionality through taking that gamble, but they impact your physiology through continual use, and the reaction you have (both beneficial and potentially negative) is not fixed over time---you could one day find yourself quite intolerant of it or in a serious state of mind because of toxic overload or brainfry.

 

without yet researching the receptors involved, recovery from meds usually takes both rest (so diminishing your neural stresses and workload) but also exercise (so you can help rebuild connections and show your brain that its time to exploit its plasticity to regain greater connectivity and ability). i found weed and socializing and approaching new ideas and situations to be some of the ways to exercise and stretch my brain beyond the humdrum that can prevent healing from proceeding, and i bet adderall could increase your brain functioning (temporarily) in ways that induce a preferential regrowth of pathways/pathway usage. but i am talking very sparing, very occasional use, and not just because of the risks involved.

 

be prepared to risk paradoxical reactions, or diminished/partial benefits if the adderall is competing with your withdrawing neurology or physically damaged tissues. it is a stress on your system, and could reverse some of your recovery process. but, as i stated, novelty is a good thing in safe moderation. i dont advise involving yourself in other psychotropics so quickly or early, but these ideas are my non-clinical, non-deterministic opinion.

 

and, as LucaDiProspero noted, there is often a limited degree to which you can get habitual benefit from something like adderall, and you can increase your vulnerability to current withdrawal symptoms or add new withdrawal or withdrawal symptoms to your current experience. ive had 5 healthcare appointments in 2 days, including a sleep study this morning, so i cant research immediately, but pop back in here if i dont drop some additional information within a few days.

[Redmanone]

Well invisible, what i got out of that is that every once in a while, a little adderall wouldnt hurt nothing? And also was weed beneficial for your recovery process or should i stay away from that?

[Redmanone]

Please correct me if i didnt understand what you meant

[InvisibleUnless]

hey, sorry it was confusing.  a little every once in a while is still risky, but less risky than taking it often, or taking huge doses.  you asked if there can be benefits to taking it, or if it is only a bad idea.  to that i say that there can be limited benefits to very occasional use, but you might be taking a significant risk.  it messes with your brain, and that can cause your withdrawal to worsen, or lengthen in duration, and it might even add new symptoms.

 

i understand your wanting to at least have a higher degree of functioning than your invega injection allows, and adderall can spruce you up a bit in the very short term, but this is stressful and exhausting for your system.  if you want to take the risk, in order to benefit in the very short term, then take precautions like low doses,  and have lots of rest periods (sleep, proper food, resting your brain) between the days you take it.

 

it is not a friendly thing to be doing, on the biological level, and i dont recommend it.

 

weed has helped me with some withdrawal symptoms, on occasion, and has helped me reconstitute my thoughts when my brain was all slowed down and mucked up by the antipsychotics.  but that is only on rare occasions and in severe moderation---like one small portion of a normal hit, perhaps once a month.  in my own withdrawal, substances like weed have the capacity to throw the emotional disarray, psychosis, and sensory disturbances into overdrive, so there has to be a balance.  and most of the time i just outright avoid it.  the same with alcohol---i very, very rarely drink, and when i do, it is just a few small sips.  these things are really taxing on your nerves and internal organs, and though its important to have some fun and feel alive, moderation is defined differently in withdrawal than when you were in a more 'normal' state before you took the psych meds.

 

and i wanted to explain how your reaction to adderall on one occasion does not necessarily determine how you will react during other days of using it.  stress, toxins, and damage all accumulate, and your body needs to be able to deal with these factors effectively before you reach a state of equilibrium and predictable responses to drugs.  it is not wise to assume your reaction to introducing psychotropic substances to your body while you are withdrawing.  that means being careful, and sparing, is often the safest approach.

[Redmanone]

Okay invisible thanks again. So what you suggest is no adderall and only a little weed? Or no weed at all. Im about to give up my life is so stressful right now. Benzos dont even work for me it seems like.

[bluebalu86]

Benzos and alcohol don't work on me ever since I started taking the AD and AP. I think it's because of the AP. 

I wouldn't use drugs the way you use them. It seems reckless and dangerous to me. You're only messing up your brain even more imo. 

[Redmanone]

I was not trying to be reckless. And i dont use them reckless. Benzos dont work for me. Im so tired or this ****** anhedonia and lack of empathy. I dont even know why im existing.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Petunia
edited out offensive language

[oskcajga]

I was not trying to be reckless. And i dont use them reckless. Benzos dont work for me. Im so tired or this ****** anhedonia and lack of empathy. I dont even know why im existing.

 

The anhedonia is probably the most difficult of all the symptoms to cope with.  You're not alone.  At some point over the last 2 years of having anhedonia, I just learned to accept the fact that I was going to be like this forever - but I sort of just didn't care about things anymore, and decided to proceed with living because I only get one life.  I don't know how long yours will last, but eventually everyone comes out of it.  You're going to have to figure out a way to cope with this and find a way to make time go by.  It could get better in a month, or two months, or 3 years - no way to tell.  Just have to wait it out and see what happens.  Eventually it does go away, however.  So keep that in mind.

 

Eventually you'll start having "windows" of emotions, that will help give you hope of a full recovery.

 

I wish I could tell you how long it was going to last.

 

By the way - how does your body react to marijuana, adderall, and xanex?  Did you just get no feeling, or did you get strange and new odd sensations that seemed to be very very wrong?

Edited July 25, 2015 by Petunia
edited out offensive language in quote

[InvisibleUnless]

the weed helps more with the dystonias, mindshaftedness, nausea, and general emotional issues (depression, humorlessness).  whether or not it can meaningfully address outright anhedonia depends on your specific biological state.  sometimes it can get me back to feeling more, but sometimes it cant.

 

i wouldnt just outright suggest the use of marijuana, for several reasons.  one is that it hits multiple receptor types, just like complex psychiatric drugs.  another is that weed has at least one element of antipsychotic action, so that can worsen or prolong your current withdrawal from antipsychotic action, or can result in paradoxical antipsychotic action.  sometimes it can give your body a WAY smoother ride, as it has natural checks and balances to its influence and if you dont have some ridiculous, hyper-bred THC slugger then maybe you can even out some of your withdrawal symptoms and ease your brain into a state of greater balance.

 

i dont think CBD pills are a good replacement for expert-recommended CBD-high strains of bud that still contain THC.  its not just about ratios, or lineage, but the specific properties of each individual strain, so if you can consult at the place of purchase, that is way better and more reliable than trying to find stuff on the street.  most dealers these days seem to either have no idea what theyre selling or no idea about the chemical properties of strains altogether.  plus, if you cannot directly trace its provenance, it could have become mislabeled, misunderstood, or adulterated somewhere between a grower and your jar of goodness.

 

i could not scientifically state that adderall would be better or worse for you than marijuana, and that seems to be something only you could truly figure out, even if you look for help in interpreting your experiences and reactions.

 

as for what i DO suggest...if you absolutely must chemically alter yourself through drugs to achieve a more liveable state, follow the same principles as responsible psychiatric drug administration: use the lowest effective dose necessary for sufficiently and reasonably treating your issue, give yourself rest and do not rush tapers or dose amounts, be aware of potential interactions, and be prepared to cut something out if its too much trouble or if you can find something that is less risky.

[Petunia]

Would using adderall be beneficial or hinder my progression to recovery.

 

If you are trying to recover from withdrawal from any psychiatric medication, then ingesting any psychoactive substances are likely to slow the healing process. The idea of recovery is that you no longer create an artificial balance in brain chemistry with drugs and other substances, so you can allow your receptors and other sub-systems to revert back to their default setting.

 

Every time you throw some strange pill or potion in there, you are exacerbating the chaos which you are trying to undo. In the short term, you may feel better, temporarily, but long term, you are delaying recovery by causing more NS instability.

 

Alcohol, adderall and weed are all psychoactive substances.

 

3. Keep it stable.

 

The nervous system is delicate and very complicated. Normally, the autonomic system runs your body with numerous checks and balances, constantly gauging what hormones and transmitters need to be increased and which need to be decreased. Its job is to keep your body stable, at a tolerable temperature range, with everything running smoothly.

 

Psychiatric drugs (and all psychoactive substances) interfere with the entire nervous system, not just the brain. This is why changing dosage of just one drug can affect your eyesight, your digestion, and your sleep. Taking psychiatric drugs (and all psychoactive substances) affects the functions of the nervous system....

 

...Thus, the nervous system does best in a stable environment. Help your nervous system adapt to life without drugs by maintaining as much stability as you can. This is the way you can take care of yourself and help your nervous system to recover. We are our own worst enemies when it comes to stressing our nervous systems! Examples:

 

...

 

3.b. Avoid binges. Even if you had no problems with them before, avoid overindulgence in alcohol, food, partying, sugar, staying up late, even exercise. All of these put the body and the nervous system under stress.

 

See: The rule of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.

 

Also see:

 

Alcohol & withdrawal syndrome - Surviving Antidepressants

 

Tips for tapering off Adderall - Surviving Antidepressants

 

cannabis, THC or marijuana to ease withdrawal symptoms ...

 

 

[Redmanone]

Oskajga, weed recently has tended given me paranoia as i'm no longer used to THC. Adderall however recently gave me a "window" of feeling for a short while. Thats why i was so glad to have tried it. But now what everyone is telling me that it will harm my CNS and that i should just leave it alone altogether. Xanax however has little to no affect on me whatsoever. I snorted 1mg last night and got somewhat of a relaxed feeling i believe. Im so scared for my receptors and feelings and want them to return fully. If i must give up all drugs in order to let them repair itself then I will. Its gonna be hard but I will try my best. ????????????

[Petunia]

If i must give up all drugs in order to let them repair itself then I will.

 

I'm really glad to hear this Redmanone because snorting xanax is definitely NOT going to help you recover.

[Redmanone]

I know petunia but i was going through a hard time yesterday.

[oskcajga]

Oskajga, weed recently has tended given me paranoia as i'm no longer used to THC. Adderall however recently gave me a "window" of feeling for a short while. Thats why i was so glad to have tried it. But now what everyone is telling me that it will harm my CNS and that i should just leave it alone altogether. Xanax however has little to no affect on me whatsoever. I snorted 1mg last night and got somewhat of a relaxed feeling i believe. Im so scared for my receptors and feelings and want them to return fully. If i must give up all drugs in order to let them repair itself then I will. Its gonna be hard but I will try my best.

 

You can ultimately do what you want to do to your body, but if you want the QUICKEST recovery, I'd strongly recommend avoiding all central nervous system acting drugs - as Petinua stated.

 

If you get into a moment of utter despair and you are going to use a drug, no matter what (again, I don't recommend this rout, it's dangerous but it seems like you tend to be a bit impulsive, so I figure I'll just write it down so you know what to expect) - then here's some tips you might want to consider, based on my experience:

 

Word of warning about adderall from someone who took it for 7 years and quit 10 months ago:  The "emotions" you felt on it will go away after about 1-2 weeks, then you'll feel even LESS emotions than you do now when you're not taking it.  You will have to increase your dose to get those same emotions after a 7-14 day period - which can lead to serious addiction.  So if you insist on using adderall, I'd recommend following invisibleunless's advice:  do it once every 4 days at most - if you take it too close between doses your dopamaneric recpetors will downregulate, and you'll just become an adderall fiend.  Once you get to that point, it's probably going to be a long recovery process (months and months and months).  Also - I know that you have a history of using drugs like most normal drug users do (i.e., snorting, and other such methods), but orally ingesting your pills is manatory in your current condition - the sudden increase in blood levels of drugs can throw a damaged CNS into utter despair. 

 

So if you wish to take adderall or any stimulant, you may wish  to start at a low dose and slowly work up (e.g., 2.5mg, wait 30 minutes, see how you feel) - don't just crush up a 20mg pill and snort the whole thing all at once - that's a wonderful way to end up in a psychosis and back in the hospital for a shot of invega.  Also note that the adderall comedown can last for hours, and is notable for it's ability to produce psycosis in otherwise healthy people - so be judicious about the dose you take, and wait it out for the 8+ hours that the drug is in your system to figure out how you're going to react. 

 

- Again I wouldn't recommend adderall, it's notoriously addicting, can cause psycosis, and will ultimately slow down your CNS recovery process.  The only reason I took it was because I had been on it every day for so many years that I had no choice but to keep taking it until I graduated from my college program.  Along the way I learned a little bit about its use, however.

 

If xanex does nothing for you, I wouldn't recommend taking it anymore - it's just too addicting (4 hour half life is bad news) and can cause all sorts of serious problems that will compound your current ones.  Petunia and invisible are correct and I second their advice.  I'd highly recommend anything over a benzodiazepine in your current condition.  Same thing with drinking alcohol - getting drunk may have lasting repercussions.  

 

Weed is something some members of this board do, some don't.  I personally got really really messed up from marijuana - it set me back over a year and I'm still recovering.  I got a little too high a little too quickly and then managed to take too large of a hit without realizing it and I ended up going into a full on psycotic crazy overdose mode.  This lasted for many many months, and in the process what little joy I had was destroyed and I ended up homeless and totally destitute.  If you're getting paranoid, that could easily turn into depersonalization/derealization if you have a panic attack - a state you definitely do not want to end in.  Probably best to avoid weed.

 

*I'd recommend re-reading invisibleunless's post about marijuana above - he/she is very knowledgable on the subject.

 

Just some thoughts - I understand what you're going through, and understand the desire to use drugs to escape the misery and to try to activate your brain again.  Personally, I didn't find drugs to be very effective, and they almost always set me back.

 

-

 

This is now a waiting game for you, and thus finding a method for making time go by quickly would be a much better use of your "energies" than trying to figure out which CNS activating drug can help you cope.  I personally found videogames that are highly addicting, such as WoW or LoL, etc, to be great at making time go by quickly.  Weeks and weeks and weeks can disappear into these videogames, and I can't think of a better way to make time go by when that's the name of the game.  Other people find meditation useful, or exercise, or being out in nature, etc - so there are a lot of options. 

 

Stay in touch, and hang in there buddy!

[Redmanone]

Thanks oskajga, im going to have to avoid all drugs it seems to let my CNS recover. It was just so odd like a window, i was walking through walmart and had some feelings. I was kinda happy. I hope my body returns to its normal happiness. -also- i smoke cigarettes... They are psychoactive do i need to quit them?

[oskcajga]

Thanks oskajga, im going to have to avoid all drugs it seems to let my CNS recover. It was just so odd like a window, i was walking through walmart and had some feelings. I was kinda happy. I hope my body returns to its normal happiness. -also- i smoke cigarettes... They are psychoactive do i need to quit them?

 

You'll have more windows as time goes on.  Remember, the invega isn't out of your system yet - it's still going to be there for a while.  I think you'll experience a full recovery eventually - most people do (as long as they haven't taken the drugs at high doses for years and years and years).

 

I wouldn't recommend changing anything.  Cigarettes are probably a huge confounding factor - all those chemicals in the cigarettes cannot be helpful (there's plenty of research backing up this claim).  There's like 1000 chemicals that you put into your bloodstream every single time you smoke a cigarette - so that's definitely on the list for things to get rid of in the future - if you wish.

 

As with any other psychoactive substances that one has taken for a long time, cigarettes need to be tapered.  I'd recommend cutting down 1-2 cigarettes per month, and just keep doing that.  A lot of people fail quitting cigarettes because they don't understand neuroadaptations and drug addiction.  They think "oh I'll just quit the cigarettes cold turkey and I'll just tough it out" - but their brains are totally different now after consuming cigarettes for a long time - so they feel horrible for months and months and months and then eventually just give up.

 

The way to avoid any of that misery is to just start tapering down a couple cigarettes per month (try to aim for that 10% reduction per month that this website suggests).

 

Again, it's up to you when you want to quit those guys, but I think it's probably a good idea to wait a couple of months at least until the invega has been metabolized by your liver and is totally out of your body.

 

Good luck, you're doing better and things will continue to get better!

[Redmanone]

Oskajga, i had a plasma level test done a month and a half ago and the levels were low. (9.4ng/ml) and im thinking about getting another done. When do you think it will completely be gone. Note is has been a little over 4 months for me.

[oskcajga]

Oskajga, i had a plasma level test done a month and a half ago and the levels were low. (9.4ng/ml) and im thinking about getting another done. When do you think it will completely be gone. Note is has been a little over 4 months for me.

 

I thought you got the injection back in late May?

[Altostrata]

Redman, you've gotten such excellent advice here, there's not much I can add.

 

Going on and off and on and off neuroactive drugs, even occasionally, will keep your nervous system in a state of chaos. If you want to heal, that is not taking care of yourself.

 

To recover from psychiatric drugs, you need the discipline to take care of yourself and, as Petunia reminded you,  3. Keep it stable.

 

This is a challenge for most of us, but it seems that if you're in the habit of recreational drug use, it's going to be even harder for you. But if you ever want to be free of "the system," it's in your best interest not to rock the boat with the occasional drug adventure.

 

Otherwise, you run the risk of acting odd in public and being put in the hospital again, or going to the hospital yourself when a drug experiment goes wrong, and being drugged again with psychiatric drugs.

 

Have you ever talked to a therapist or counselor about your urge to escape with drugs?

[Redmanone]

Yes i see a therapist every two weeks and oskajga i got the shot on march 16th

[Altostrata]

I suggest you use your time with the therapist talking about why you don't let yourself take charge of your life.

 

Please focus on taking care of yourself, don't idolize those pills, they've gotten you into trouble.

[Redmanone]

Ik alto, but its just so hard dealing with this anhedonia. I know someone on bluelight who used Ritalin during his recovery process and now hes almost fully recovered. I felt somewhat of a window when i used the 20mg of adderall.....

[oskcajga]

 I know someone on bluelight

  Not exactly the most reputable website

[Altostrata]

bluelight is all about drug experimentation. Good for that person.
 
I strongly recommend you let your nervous system settle down and use non-drug means to deal with the emotional anesthesia. See

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Anhedonia, apathy, demotivation