simack: Trying to taper off antipsychotic's (saphris/zyprexa).

[KarenB]

No need to apologise - you're writing how things honestly are for you, which is the right thing to do.  I'm going to run this past the other mods, and we'll get back to you soon. 

 

When you say 'occasional failed attempts at tapering in between' do you mean since you started holding in February, or before then?  Because a hold can only be counted from your last dose change.  When was that date? 

 

The c/t won't be fatal - just requiring a longer healing period. 

 

Talk soon,

Karen

x

[simack]

Thanks Karen, Yes, I attempted a 10% reduction of pristiq over Easter, it lasted two days before reinstating then last week I attempted to cut the zyprexa from 3.75mg to 3.725 then four days later 3.7mg. This lasted a week before I was again hit with insomnia.

[frasier23]

when you say complete insomnia arent you even tired then?

[Shep]

Thanks Karen, Yes, I attempted a 10% reduction of pristiq over Easter, it lasted two days before reinstating then last week I attempted to cut the zyprexa from 3.75mg to 3.725 then four days later 3.7mg. This lasted a week before I was again hit with insomnia.

 

 

Hi, Simack.

 

I wanted to offer support and encouragement as a fellow antipsychotic survivor. 

 

Also, please note in addition to the above changes, you also recently came off benzos on July 2 - http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9363-simack-trying-to-taper-off-antipsychotics-saphriszyprexa/?p=234562

 

It only takes 2 weeks for some people to develop a dependency, and this can happen even with "as needed" use. The half life of Valium is about 200 hours, so it stays in your system a really long time.  It's possible you're dealing with benzo discontinuation at this point, as you were also using Temazepam prior to that.

 

I'm glad you decided to stop using them, but depending on if you had any dependency develop, it may take awhile for your system to stabilize. So please be very cautious with making any more changes for awhile. 

[Altostrata]

If it makes you feel worse, stop tapering!

 

Too many changes -- you may feel you're not making progress, but you need to be much more patient. You need to let your nervous system settle down.

 

Is your signature up to date? What is your daily symptom pattern? Please keep daily notes on paper about your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages.

 

Kindling occurs when you introduce a drug. Daily notes as above will indicate whether any of your drugs is causing the symptoms.

[simack]

Thanks everyone for the advice, it's greatly appreciated. .

when you say complete insomnia arent you even tired then?

Yes extremely, I just mean that I'm unable to get any sleep at all, usually on my worst night's I can manage 2 to 3 hours.

Thanks alto, I'll try holding for a longer period.

[frasier23]

Simack: do you know if youre sleeping or not or are you just guessing

[simack]

Hey mate, yeah I can usually tell when I'm not able to sleep because I have a bad habit of watching my bedside clock. Although, I may be managing to sneak some micro sleep in between that goes undetected.

My usual weekly pattern is, one solid night's sleep (8hrs), two average (5hrs) one poor night's sleep(-3hrs) then back to three average again. Lately thought I've been feeling terrible even after my good night's sleep, it hasn't been restorative at all, and feel just as bad as my night's with no sleep.

[Altostrata]

Are you keeping regular hours? Please see Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

[simack]

Thanks alto, I try to keep my sleep routine as regular as possible. My main concern at this time is if SSRI/antipsychotic kindling works the same as benzol/alcohol. Say If I were to CT an SSRI then reinstate it, will the next taper be made even harder, and then does this continue to stack up with each further CT?.

At the very start of my withdrawal, before I found this site, I attempted at least 9 consecutive CT's of saphris, each time lasting only a few days before reinstating. I never fully stabilised in between attempt,s which were usually made weekly.

Is it possible I've made myself this sensitive to tapering due to the kindling effect, and if I hold long enough can i heal myself to a point of being able to resume tapering?

Sorry to bother you all with this question again, but the though of being permanently kindled, is wearing a hole in my hope.

[Shep]

Hi, Simack.

 

I've never heard of "permanent kindling", although "kindling" is definitely real. If you haven't already read this, you may find it helpful:

 

Limbic Kindling -- Hardwiring the brain for hypersensitivity

 

I came off 5 of the 6 drugs in my last cocktail either cold turkey or rapid taper (I didn't know any better at the time), and I'm slowly healing, so I really don't think any of this is permanent. It just takes longer to heal. I also have a long history of coming off my drugs over the past 30 years, and this time I did get a lot sicker. But again, I'm still slowly healing. 

 

My advice is to hold and stabilize and give yourself time to get stronger before making another cut. Also, please try not to make so many changes with supplements and using other drugs like benzos. All of this destabilizes the CNS. 

 

But there's no evidence this is permanent. Have you heard of neuroplasticity? This video explains it, including a short explanation from Dr. Norman Doidge, who is a researcher involved in the research of neuroplasticity. It gives a lot of hope because it takes away the "permanent" aspect. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mea-NdKBpUQ

 

Sending healing vibes your way, simack. This really does get better. 

[simack]

Thanks shep I greatly appreciate your time and advice. The last few weeks have seen a shift in symptoms for me, I was experiencing a weird light headed dizziness that came and went. It has now evolved into extreme depersonalisation/ derealization. it's terrifying, a have a fear that I'm not in control of my thoughts and actions, and will do something horrific and end up hospitalised again or worse. I can't pinpoint anything that may have triggered this. I was chewing nicotine gum to try and counteract the antipsychotic side effects, but had to stop due to it being overly activating

[Shep]

Hi, Simack.

 

Dp/dr can be set off by just about anything. That's my worst symptom, so I do know how you feel.

 

Mindfulness is really good for dp/dr. When it's triggered, think to yourself - what do I feel, hear, see, touch, taste? Be as specific as you can. The idea is to keep from going too far into your head, to stay grounded, to stay present. 

 

You mentioned trashing your Valium on July 2, so you may be getting hit with benzo withdrawal. Benzos are notorious for causing dp/dr.

 

You may wish to explore the members-only benzo forum for more information:

 

 

Members only benzo forum

 

 

The Ashton Manual will give you more information on what to expect with benzo withdrawal, including information on dp/dr: 

 

The 2002 Ashton Manual is at http://www.benzo.org...anual/index.htm

 

The April, 7 2011 Ashton Manual Supplement is at http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashsupp11.htm

 

This post within the dp/dr thread really helped me understand what was happening:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1766-derealization-or-depersonalization/?p=7949

 

Please be very careful because dp/dr can affect your balance, vision, and make your job in construction difficult. Learning as much as you can may make dealing with this symptom a bit easier. 

 

[simack]

Hey everyone, I seem to have destabilised myself again and was wondering where to go from here. It could have been caused by a possibility of three things. I have the usual insomnia, intense anxiety and inner restlessness.

Thursday night I started taking a zinc b6 combo supplement, but I didn't notice anything Friday.

Friday night I switched to using liquid seroquel, I didn't change the dose at all, just dissolved the 50mg tablet into 50ml of water and drank the lot. Saturday was fine, although I started having trouble sleeping Saturday night.

Saturday night I was having trouble sleeping so I decided to try a little thc oil. It worked but from Sunday on until today(Tuesday) I've been having difficulty sleeping, internal restlessness and anxiety.

I've ditched the thc oil, am considering stopping the zinc b6 supplement, and should I switch back to solid seroquel or should i try and wait and see what happens from here?

[ChessieCat]

Hi Simack,

 

Making those changes within a short period of time means that you can't tell what is causing what.  B6 can be activating so there is a possibility that is causing an issue.  When changing from tablet to liquid it may be better to do a gradual change over, taking part tablet with part liquid and gradually decreasing/increasing respectively over a few days to reduce the possibility of it causing an issue.

 

My suggestion would be to stop zinc and thc oil (which you have already done) and go back to Seroquel tablet.  Stabilise for a while and then do the tablet/liquid crossover.

 

Remember, too, when introducing something new, test one at a time at a small amount and build up gradually.

 

I've just had a thought that maybe taking the same quantity of Seroquel as a liquid may be too much and also it may be that you will need to split the dose throughout the day.  I'll check with the other mods and get their opinions.

[simack]

Thanks chessiecat, I will make the switch back to tablet seroquel and hopefully things will settle down again. I wasn't really expecting to experience any major side effects from switching.. maybe I'm missing some of the dose by drinking it instead of having it dissolve completely in my stomach.

I'm having trouble telling if I'm experiencing akathisia or anxiety, I have a terrible feeling of inner turmoil that is coming and going in short waves, say 30min at a time.

I thought that a three month hold would be long enough for my cns to stabilise, I was wrong. How will I know how long to hold this time?

[ChessieCat]

"taking the same quantity of Seroquel as a liquid may be too much" - I realised after posting that what I mean is dose-dumping which could be the cause of your symptoms.

 

Take notice once you get back on tablet if these abate.  Good luck.

[simack]

Thanks again Chrissie, does this effect still hold true for instant release forms of tablets? I'm using 200mg instant release tablets cut into writers to get my 50mg

[Shep]

Hey, Simack.

 

Sorry you're struggling so much right now. Like CC said, you're doing too many changes at one time. Also, please read over what I wrote about benzo withdrawal, as you are only a month off of those meds. 

 

Are you able to get a prescription for the 25 mg tablets of Seroquel instead of the 200 mg tablets? This will make your taper much easier.

 

Please let us know how you're doing. Ideally, it would be best to not make any changes for a long while and simply allow yourself to stabilize. 

[JanCarol]

Hey Simack:

 

Thanks Karen, Yes, I attempted a 10% reduction of pristiq over Easter, it lasted two days before reinstating then last week I attempted to cut the zyprexa from 3.75mg to 3.725 then four days later 3.7mg. This lasted a week before I was again hit with insomnia. 

 

Please put all drug changes in your signature.  You see this as a "failed attempt" but I see it as "you caught the eye of the bear and now it's breathing down your neck!"

 

When I last visited your thread, I had great hopes that you would hold and stabilize before things came to this.

 

Please, this is not "permanent damage" it is drug changes.  When you make a drug change (whether that is CT off Seroquel, or a 10% reduction in Pristiq) you bounce the basketball (brain) again.  You really need to get your doses and symptoms still before attempting any tapers.

 

This includes supplements and changes in routine and exercise, sleep, and stress.  Stressful events can bounce your brain as surely as a vitamin or supplement, as surely as even a drug change.  You want to be boring.

 

B-O-R-I-N-G.  Same thing, every day.  Some of us even ate the same foods for a year, while waiting for things to settle.  

 

Boring is good, after you've been through antidepressant withdrawal.  And it's a good goal to keep in mind.

 

I remember one time going to the bank.  This is perception - not necessarily fact.  I looked at the pert little bank teller with her lovely hair, and her photo of her kids, and her tidy outfit and fit and trim young body, and thought:  "Normal.  OMG.  That's what NORMAL looks like!"  I had forgotten.  I realized then, that boring can be very good.  

 

And trust me, there is good stuff on the other side.  Just be prepared to be boring, stable, and simple for a few years, and then you will have the rest of your life to be passionate, engaged, and excited about things.

[simack]

Thanks everyone for your time and advice, it is greatly appreciated. I will update my Sig when I find the time, I just wanted to clear up that I only used 5mg of valium twice, after both times experiencing horrible rebound anxiety once the effects wore off.

Also I was hoping that three months was long enough for things to stabilise for me, I'm sorry but I keep growing impatient due to the side effects of the antipsychotic's being intolerable, then I worry that I'm not going to stabilise on zyprexa and seroquel because i originally went into WD from saphris.

I'll try and hold again for a longer time, hopefully I'll be able to heal enough to resume tapering one day

[Shep]

Simack, I feel for you. I really do. I've been there.

 

Before you were on Valium, you were taking temazepam, which is also a benzo. I believe you were only on it for a few days, so hopefully you've escaped the benzo withdrawal trap. But please be very careful of adding these kinds of drugs, as dependence can set in within 10 days. Also, Ashwaghanda is listed in your signature. Ashwaghanda affects GABA and can make benzos more potent, so even supplements can create havoc, especially in an already destabilized CNS. 

 

You also recently mentioned using nicotine gum to counteract the side effects of the antipsychotic in this post here.   That may very well have rattled your CNS enough to create more problems, especially if you're not used to using it. I'm glad you stopped. 

 

What Jan said carries so much truth - boring is good. Boring brings stability. 

 

I came off many drugs taken over many decades, but keeping it simple really is helping me recover. I'll have plenty of time to live my life on my own terms once I've healed, and I want that to happen faster. And it will happen faster if I avoid drugs, supplements, and try to keep my stress as low as possible. 

 

For now, look at your CNS as an open wound. Anything - drugs, supplements, caffeine, stress - can create damage. Lots and lots of damage. 

[simack]

Thanks shep, I switched back to solid seroquel last night and seem to be back to a more stable state. Going to hold until Xmas this time. I wasn't aware that ashwaghanda effected gaba... This news has me worried, I've been taking it for a few years now, can I expect WD if I decide to stop taking it?

[ChessieCat]

Hi Simack

 

I've ask the mods their thoughts on how to go of the ashwaghanda.

[Shep]

Hi, Simack.

 

As CC says, the mods are looking at this, but if you could add in the dosage you're taking of the Ashwaghanda in your signature, that will be helpful.  You may also want to add in the doses for your other supplements, as well. Melatonin at too high a dose can have a paradoxical reaction, especially for those of us with a compromised CNS. 

 

For now, I would hold everything steady because you have made so many changes recently, I fear you may destabilize. I'm glad you're sleeping now, but I'm not sure you're ready for another change quite yet.

 

The fact that you're off benzos is great because of the interaction.  When you do come off the Ashwaghanda, you may want to taper, but this is true of many supplements.

 

[JanCarol]

Hey Simack - ask yourself:  what is the boring thing to do?  

 

I agree with Shep, staying on what you are on is probably the most stable thing.

 

There is a huge discussion on Ashwaganda here, it does so many good things, too, and you have been on it for a long time:

Ashwaganda for Anxiety, Stress and Toxic Overload

 

I'm gonna hold you to this:

Going to hold until Xmas this time. 

 

!!!!!!!!!

[simack]

Thanks again everyone, I'm currently taking four tablets of ashwaghanda which works out to around 2.28 grams I think. They contain some calcium and it states on the bottle only 70mg of root extract per tablet. I recently cut my melatonin down from 5mg instant release + 5mg xr , to just 3mg instant release.

Thanks Jan I promise I will hold my word on this. I can handle the boredom part of holding well enough, it's just the anhedonia and cognitive impairment that gets me down.

[simack]

I slept pretty good last night, although upon waking today I've have intense anxiety, I'm guessing this is fallout from the thc oil..... Lesson learned I guess

[simack]

Think I'm back at square one again, I've had horrible relentless anxiety all day today, could this be from using 1ml of thc oil Saturday night? Would it intensify after four days since ingesting it?

[ChessieCat]

Hi Simack,

 

Within the last week have taken B6, thc and tried liquid seroquel.  It could have been caused by any one of these.

 

Practice acceptance, it is what it is for the time being, and keep things stable.  Worrying about what caused it is not going to change anything and (I believe) causes stress which means the brain has to divert to dealing with that instead of working on getting better.

1. Acceptance
2. Acceptance and Mindfulness
3. Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System
4. "Change the channel" -- dealing with cognitive symptoms
5. Change cognitive framing - Redirect - Another Way
6. Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) for anxiety, depression
7. Cognitive Behavior Therapy lessons

[simack]

Thanks chessie just hoping things don't get any worse and definitely not changing anything after this ordeal

[simack]

I'm sorry to keep posting on here, but I had another day of intense panic waves today, I'm hoping this will pass soon as I'm terrified of losing my job or worse being sectioned.. I'm holding everything, crossing fingers and toes my sleep doesn't completely go, I'm trying my hardest not to focus on the panic, I'm repeatedly telling myself this is just and adverse reaction and will pass in time

[JanCarol]

Your fear of the symptoms is what is known as "secondary fear," and you can feed that wolf, or starve it.

 

Please work on some Non Drug Techniques for Coping with Emotional Symptoms

 

Tell us what you are trying.  Really try them.

 

For a roofer, I recommend Chi Gung, it will help you feel your body and improve your balance:

 

 

or, if that is too much, just put your legs up on the wall, it calms your nervous system, and helps redeem you from Fright, Fight, and Flight.

Legs on the wall - shorter, no blanket

 

Non drug techniques are a vital tool to surviving these things.  Waiting is what you really need, the passing of time.  But it is easier if you are mindful, concentrating, or distracting from your symptoms while you are waiting.

 

These are 2 gentle ways to Change the Channel.  There are others, but you may have to find your own.

[ChessieCat]

"Waiting is what you really need, the passing of time."

 

This can be hard because it can feel like you need to do something or take something to improve.  This is why we are making the suggestions we are.

[simack]

Thanks everyone, im trying hard to ignore this and some non drug techniques, but I'm in a constant state of panic... I contacted the person I bought the THC oil from and they said it is the non psychoactive type that I bought.... This makes me think that maybe I'm having a kindling reaction to switching back to solid Seroquel?

[ChessieCat]

Hi simack,

 

It's only been about 1 week since you started adding/making changes to things.  As I said in a previous post, because it was several different things, we have no idea what is causing the issue/s.  It could also be a combination which caused it, not one particular thing.

 

We understand how hard it is, but for the time being you just need to stop worrying about what it might or might not have been/is and allow yourself to stabilise.  You need to take it day by day, hour by hour or minute by minute if that is the case.  You are not the only one here who has destabilised themselves and had to live with the consequences until time has settled things.  It is the in between bit which is hardest and probably seems longer than it actually has been.  And that's one of the reasons why being here at SA is helpful.  To get support through the tough times.

 

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