LucyJed: Persistent and intense anxiety after 2.5 months of Luvox and Paxil

[LucyJed]

My wife's not sure what the non drinking alcoholic is either.... The therapist she goes to doesn't understand about AD withdrawl and believes that my erratic behavior, mood swings and anxiety are alcoholism. I don't drink much now, I used to have a few in the good old days though.

Just had a nice window that lasted about 8 days. Now on day 2 of wave... Harsh.

Symptoms are anxiety but a little more depression this time. More sadness. I'm not sure if that's better but at least the anxiety is not as intense. Of course I'm talking my wife's ears off and she gets mad, says I'm too negative and bails on me. This is such a lonely condition that we al are going through. Also, my mom wants me to try some new psychotropic drugs to get better, but I keep telling her I am getting better , it just takes time... I don't have a mental illness - I have a drug withdrawl problem.

 

I worry a lot and OCD about everything - my counselor keeps reminding me about mindfulness and my meditation, but the thoughts keep getting away from me. Hard not to go negative, worry about the future, regrets of the past - all the things they tell you now to do.

I know there is a better life out there for me, I'm just trying to mess up to bad as I'm going through this hell...

[JanCarol]

Hi LucyJed, it's good to hear from you!

 

Actually, it sounds good that you are having Waves and Windows.  That means you are healing.

 

Think of it like this - when you are in a wave, it is like that part of your system - your neural roadworks - is "closed for repair," and it really sucks while you are there, because you have to work around it until it comes back online - and sometimes that feels extremely difficult.

 

But that also means that, after a few "tests" that road, that pathway, that network can come online. 

 

There are only about a million possible pathways that might need healing, but it is a really good sign that you're in the windows and waves part of the pattern.

 

Soon, you can consider tapering the lithium - but not until you have been stable for over a month.  Wait until you are ready to introduce new symptoms into the mix.  Lithium is famous for "holding on to symptoms" from other drugs (that's what I meant by protective) - that the symptoms you would have had from the withdrawal may come out as you taper the lithium.  Does that make sense?

 

This has been a challenging new year.  I've been looking for cosmic reasons for it, and I can't find anything other than the general speed and ruthlessness as our society is accelerating.  I guess that's enough!

 

Take care, I hope we hear from you soon.

[LucyJed]

Hi JanCarol

Thanks for your reply. I can't wait to get a month of no symptoms in. The Windows are so strange, because I actually feel at the time that phew, I'm finally over this weirdness, now back to my life. But then a few days later it comes back. Like right now I'm so depressed that I can barley not cry. Before my symptoms were mostly anxiety, now heavy depression and some agitation. Not sure which is worst...

They say this is healing and it will be over with soon enough. My therapist gets on me because when I have symptoms I start the negative thinking again and also my wife turns against me when I get a wave, she can't stand to be around me. So it's very lonely.

Hopefully his will be over with soon.

As far as the lithium is concerned, I'm not even thinking about it yet. As you said, if I can get a long term symptom free window where I feel strong enough, maybe that's the time. May be awhile. I didn't realize lithium was so hard to dump....

At least that's what my pdoc says.

What does t mean general speed and ruthlessness society accelerating. Is it that we as a society have no time anymore for compassion and contemplation ?

[LucyJed]

"Lithium is famous for "holding on to symptoms" from other drugs (that's what I meant by protective) - that the symptoms you would have had from the withdrawal may come out as you taper the lithium. Does that make sense?"

 

Hey JC. Not sure what this means.......

[LucyJed]

Hello

Need help. Is anyone there?

10 months off and having intense wave after some nice progress that lasted a few weeks.

I am becoming severely depressed, agitated, hopeless and negative. Spiraling down.

It's very frustrating to think maybe I'm at the end of this thing and then to be hit hard with symptoms.

I can't really meditate or relax. I've been swimming some but not sure if it helps or prevents me from calming down. It feels good at the time...

I want to take a benzo. But I fear it will hinder my progress. I've been taking a small amount of hydroxene which is like a Benadryl, it does make me relax some.

I have very little support. Only a therapist that helps with meditation and mindfulness .

I realize there is progress but I'm sad and frustrated .

Anyone with some positivie thoughts????

[KT38]

Hi!  I am 10 months off, too, and get the same.  The last couple months I had a couple weeks each where I was able to go more places by myself and do more with my kids.  Yesterday I even helped put my daughter's furniture together and was all excited about going mattress shopping today, but woke with the extreme anxiety, agitation and electric head like my brain is trying to rip itself into two (not headaches, but a feeling of electric current).  So, hold on tight during the waves.  It seems the better the window, the worse the wave after.  I just hope hope hope the waves get less intense. 

[JanCarol]

Hey LucyJed, you asked:

What does t mean general speed and ruthlessness society accelerating. Is it that we as a society have no time anymore for compassion and contemplation ? 

 Exactly.  That no matter what we do, how fast we go - it's never fast enough, it's never enough - life accelerates at a pace that is stressful and astounding.

 

For example, if you watch a commercial from the 70's and even 80's, you will be stunned at how SLOW and DULL it is compared to the frame changes, music, whiz-bang of a current commercial.  Movies, too.  It's like everything has to be geared for "short attention span," when really, what we need to focus on - like you said - compassion and contemplation - is extending our attention span, not shortening it!

 

I wrote:

"Lithium is famous for "holding on to symptoms" from other drugs (that's what I meant by protective) - that the symptoms you would have had from the withdrawal may come out as you taper the lithium. Does that make sense?"

and you ask:

Hey JC. Not sure what this means....... 

 

Fair enough.

 

Let me try again.  Lithium protects you from withdrawal symptoms of other drugs.  But it's not like it prevents the symptoms - it just holds them in storage somewhere - so that they will be waiting for you as you taper off the lithium.  So - if you had some akathesia coming off an SSRI, for example, the lithium will protect you from some of that - and "store it up" so that when you withdraw from the lithium, there may be some akathisia waiting for you as you come down off the lithium.

 

This is not scientific, it's come from discussions between myself and MeiMeiQuest - it seems like it is protective (in other words, without the lithium, your withdrawal symptoms would likely be worse) - but as you taper down off the lithium, all the things it was protecting you from still have to come out.

 

Is that a better explanation?

 

How are you feeling about your symptoms?  Are you able to function at all?  Or is it fine during a window, but useless during a wave? 

 

I'm sorry you are not feeling supported.  There are many ways to meditate besides just sitting still and being mindful of thoughts. I have a lot of issues around meditation, since I am a cultic abuse survivor.  

 

My favorite way to meditate is through movement, like Tai Chi or Chi Gung (or yoga or dance).  Try this, and see how it sits with you.  What I like about it is that it is just 7 minutes, so you've got no excuse for not doing it (sometimes it's hard to commit to a whole session of 20 minutes or more!). 

 

 

I hope you see the sun today!

[LucyJed]

Hello

I'm still having chronic anxiety with overall nausea.

Also, brain fog and I'm depressed and often liar hope.

I feel that because this has been going on for years I will never get healthy

My kid is growing up and in not there 100% because of this damn WD. My work is stressful and often have panic attacks at work.

Can someone share some hope and successes with me. I'm 10 months off but before that I went through 3 years of pharmaceutical hell with a crazy psychiatrist who kept creating cocktails for me. I am overwhelmed and exhausted

I need some support and help now

Thanks

LJ

[JanCarol]

Hey LJ, it does get better.

 

Usually, when someone is better they stop coming to SA - that's why it seems so difficult in here sometimes.  The better people usually go away.  Most of the people only come here when there's trouble!

 

It's kinda like the evening news that way - only the dramatic stuff makes it to air.

 

But it does get better.  You're coming up on a year after what amounts to a lot of fast switches followed by a cold turkey.  Really, it could be worse - and it will get better, if you are patient enough.

 

Did you like the qi gong?  If not that, what are you doing to promote your own self healing?  Have you tried Magnesium and Omega-3 fish oil ?

 

Here are some of my favorite success stories:

Aria Permanent Damage after polydrugging - but happy to have her brain back

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5232-hello-charliebrown-script-free/

 

Hudgenss Story successful taper

 

Introducing Jemima - example of too fast taper and successful reinstatement

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/8232-nicoleflys-life-after-prozac/?p=150939

 

and

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3523-success-recovery-from-protracted-zoloft-withdrawal-and-pssd

and here are some from offsite:

http://http://igotbetter.org/videos

http://igotbetter.org/stories

 

and

 

http://cepuk.org/recovery-stories/

 

I hope this gives you some good stuff to look forward to - and I hope to hear what helps you, too - is it reading success stories?  Taking a walk?  Listening to music?  Please, let us know!

[JanCarol]

Here's my own description (this is coming off the lithium, so not "withdrawal symptoms" like yours):

 

 

In my case (lithium taper, a different animal) it was like walking out of a deep, muddy, swampy lake.  At first, I see nothing.  I feel nothing, I want nothing.  Nice, dark, bottom of the isolated lake.  But as the lithium fell away, I came up higher until I could tell there was a sun shining on the lake.  I could feel firm ground under my feet, and had an idea where I was going.  And I wanted to go there!  As my head came above water and I took a breath of air, I was astonished to find that - I could breathe!  I wanted to breathe!  I wanted to live!  I wanted to give it my best shot!  I'm still not on dry land (I suspect I'm about knee deep, with waves up to the hip and chest on occasion) - but it does get better over time.

[LucyJed]

Thank you JanCarol

 

The Qui Gong is terrific. You feel nice afterwards!!

 

Couple of things. You know the reason I tapered fast is because the ADs turned on me and actually were substantially increasing my anxiety and tremors and raging panic attacks. I guess most people decide to get of ADs. I was just living my life with a stressful job and then wham! Not only did the Zoloft not work but it turned paradoxical .... That's when I went on the psychiatric merry go round .. I didn't have much choice except to taper faster because the horrible symptoms made me non functional.

 

With all the anxiety and depression I am experiencing, I am wondering if this is me or is it the withdrawal? I'm getting very little joy from life. Even my therapist is getting tired of me because of my improvement is so slow.

 

I come from a dysfunctional alcoholic family so I've always had some problems most my life. But this is different because sometimes I have bad effects with nothing going on. I have financial problems and work stress and a wife who can't deal with my issues or help with the financial part. She lost her job 5 years ago and now makes a third of What she was making... Money is always tight ....

 

So life is stressful. Work is stressful as I work in TV advertising sales. Wife is not really Helpful, I can't talk to her about my withdrawl or anxiety and she wants me to act like everything is fine. She says she is burned out on me . And We have a 13 year old boy who's sensing somethings wrong too.

 

But 5 years ago I was relatively happy , however I did hate having to rely on Zoloft

 

I am still hopeful that I can become healthy and happy and get out of this financial quagmire. This is the most difficult time in my life and I pray daily for God to help me and heal me.

 

LJ

[JanCarol]

Hey LJ, it sounds like your moods and struggles are not without cause!

 

(that's one of those DSM things, "depressed for no reason" - but I find - there are ALWAYS reasons)

 

I can't imagine keeping it together in advertising sales while going through withdrawal - that's a huge accomplishment!  Even if you are only hanging by the skin of your teeth - you're still hanging!

 

And times are hard right now - the "white collar world" is contracting, and has become very dog-eat-dog.  I can't imagine how dog-eating it is in your profession.  I just can't imagine.

 

Glad you like the Qi Gong - I got a few videos of his, I really like him, and there are others - kazillions of sample chi gun videos on YouTube!

 

Here's another one I really like - it's supposed to produce "total health," from Taoist practice, called the "8 Brocades"

 

but like I said before, there are prillions of them on YouTube.  

 

What else seems to help you?  Can you eat?  Sleep?  (sometimes these are affected - I've lost tolerance for some foods)  Any of the other gentle mindfulness reminders I mentioned before, like walking or music?

[LucyJed]

Hello

I'm having a very tough morning. Anxiety and depression. My emotions are taking over. Lately I've been up and down. Hard to focus. People seem to be wondering what's going on with me.

I'm telling my wife and kid that I want to move. I'm focusing too much on my financial problems. I'm just losing it.

On the positive side my symptoms are less intense than before.

It does maje me sad to realize that most of my friends have left me and don't want to hang out. I think this is because I am too negative and too anxious. I'm too worried about everything and too intense. Waves and Windows come and go faster now. I wish I could get on some kind of steady ground. This is hard when you don't know who you are and what is coming next.

[JanCarol]

Hey LJ - I think it is even harder being a man going through this.

 

I mean, you're the bread winner, and if you've grown up in our culture, not on a desert island, much of your identity and personality is wrapped up in what you do and how well you provide for your loved ones.

 

Give yourself a break if you can.  Try and find other parts of your identity (in spite of the drugs, which make it harder) - like - you are a bicyclist.  Or you are a bowler.  Or you are a good friend, father, husband. 

 

I know, I hear your depression saying that you've been too messed up to be these - but you have to look at the simple things, lest the large ones overwhelm you!

Look for the moments.  The moments when your wife smiles at something you said, or you were able to actually engage and make eye contact with your child/ren.  Or maybe you had a moment you shared with a pet, or a tree or a flower, or a piece of music.

 

There is no such thing as enlightenment.  You don't arrive at happiness and stay there.  I find that these things are moments - and the more you give attention to these moments - the more power you have, and the easier it becomes to string more and more moments together.

 

Because you were young when you started the drugs - you never got a chance to form your "adult self" - before you knew it you were locked into a career, a family, and a mortgage, and now that you are coming off - you may have to explore the lessons of "growing up" that you were never able to do before because you were numb on the Zoloft.  It's a tough row to hoe, and different people use different approaches.  

 

I think Fresh said it something like this:  the antidepressants cured her depression, because once she went through withdrawal, she knew she never wanted to be depressed ever again!

 

I hope you see the sun today.

[LucyJed]

Thank you Jan Carol

 

Yes, you have some great points. I wonder that maybe I'm freaking out because I'm waking up to see all the financial and emotional weight that is on my shoulder. Perhaps when I was on the drugs and then going through heavy withdrawl I didn't notice the pressure as much.

Also, with these intense feelings, I was reading about borderline personality disorder ... Maybe I have that. I've never been diagnosed for it but have symptoms of anxiety, depression and anger bad relationships. Or maybe it's just AD withdrawl...?

All I can tell you is that some days are better than others. Yesterday was tough . I told some friends att work about my financial situation and my expensive house and they got me all hopper up about selling my house. Then I called my wife and told her we got to sell the house!! My wife tells me I'm crazy and that I'm irrational.... Who knows who's right. I'm stressed about money, work, marriage, kid and my health. Need some relief.

I appreciate your support

LJ

[LucyJed]

I'm back checking in. I had about a 10 day window. Then back with tough anxiety. Feels like a gremlin jumping out of my chest.

Negative thinking and going into past sadness and regrets. Tough to overcome.

Work is hard and intense. I took some time off and went to the beach but wasn't that great because of the symptoms.

I drink some wine from time to time as it calms me, but I wonder if it is effecting the healing process of my central nervous system.

When will my serotonin return?

The Windows I get from tome to time only last a week but God they give me hope.

I'd appreciate any help and encouragement and support.

Thanks

LJ

[ChessieCat]

It's great that you've had a window. 

 

Drinking alcohol is not recommended.  Also caffeine and cola drinks.  Why not learn some non drug techniques instead of turning to alcohol?

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes

 

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

lithium ↔ food

Alcohol can increase the nervous system side effects of lithium such as dizziness, drowsiness, and difficulty concentrating. Some people may also experience impairment in thinking and judgment. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with lithium. Do not use more than the recommended dose of lithium, and avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medication affects you. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist if you have any questions or concerns.

 

lithium ↔ Caffeine

Using caffeine together with lithium may increase the effects of caffeine. Contact your doctor if you experience nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, drowsiness, muscle weakness, tremor, lack of coordination, blurred vision, or ringing in your ears. If your doctor does prescribe these medications together, you may need a dose adjustment or special test to safely use both medications. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

[KT38]

A 10 day window???? That's amazing!!! We both jumped about the exact same time and I have had some hours here and there feelinh a little better, but not a 10 day window. You are getting better!!!!! You will have longer wwindows!

[LucyJed]

The windows are nice. Sometimes a day or too but like I said I had a 10 day one !! CC maybe your right about the lithium. I'm still on a small dose but still will have a glass of wine or coffee ever so often. Maybe the alcohol or caffeine is hindering further progress????

 

KT hang in there. It was very tough for me but when I started getting better Windows I got more hope. Now I'm sick in bed with food poisoning or a virus. Dang if this ain't hell I don't know what is?

Still optimistic though. I believe God wants us to be healthy and strong .

[JanCarol]

Hey LJ - withdrawal can sometimes mock the flu.  They call it "flu-like symptoms."  So much so - that sometimes it is difficult to tell when you actually have the flu, or if it is just withdrawal.

 

Because you are on lithium, you likely cannot drink too much water, good, clean water.  

 

Waves and Windows - you are improving but it is not linear.  Three steps forward, 2 steps back = is still progress.

 

What are you doing to improve your capacity for coping?

 

All work and no mindfulness makes LJ a tense provider/husband/father.  

 

I hope you see the sun today.

[JanCarol]

Hey LJ - how are you?

 

I missed this before, where you wrote:

I was reading about borderline personality disorder

 

As our own NZ11 says - diagnosis = diag-nonsense!

 

Yes, some people are cruel and selfish, others have much to learn about "the borderline" = where I stop and you begin.  Some people let other people walk all over them, and some people walk all over other people.

 

Do we need to put a diagnosis on it?  Really?  Especially that one - because if you study deeper, there's not much can be done for "Borderline."  

 

I've had a few friends with that diag-nonsense over the years, and yes.  They have had problems.  But you know what?  It's not like psychiatrists say.  A psychiatrist says, "They have this disorder, they can improve, but they can't be fixed."  I believe that there are not borderline PEOPLE so much as borderline BEHAVIOURS.  And if you cannot control your behaviour - who can?  The drugs?  Jail?  Hospital?  

 

There are tools to help borderline behaviour, probably the most well known one is DBT.  Here is a DBT self-help course, see if it makes any sense to you.  http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/

 

You said:  

 I told some friends att work about my financial situation and my expensive house and they got me all hopper up about selling my house. Then I called my wife and told her we got to sell the house!! 

 

Well, that's kind of borderline behaviour - where you are easily influenced by other's opinions.  BUT - that said - if you are sooo stressed in your big expensive house, maybe the answer to your symptoms is to downgrade.

 

Maybe you will find, even if it is not "the life you are accustomed to," that you need to simplify.  If you own 3 cars, sell one.  Move to a smaller, simpler house.  Sell the stuff you don't use.  BUT I DON'T KNOW (I have to emphasize that) - it is just a clue.

 

It is something that came up while you were talking about your feelings.  Something that is putting stress on you that affects your symptoms and functioning.

 

Many of us feel that the symptoms are a guidepost, a navigational tool.  I had a friend just quit her job and go on disability because she knew that if she persisted, she would end up in hospital again.  She still has income, she has had to sell her car, and simplify her life a lot - but she is clearer and healthier as a result.

 

I simplified my life a lot back in the late 90's.  I gave up the idea that I would ever be a CPA, a high powered accounting execuive, a controller or private practice accountant.  I gave up the idea that I would drive the sports car or live in a certain neighborhood.  I even had to give up the idea of marriage, and children.  It was a lot.  I had to constrict and simplify and manage my life one day at a time.  It's scary scary stuff, but it was what I needed to manage my emotional states.

 

Turns out, now, decades later, I am married again.  I still am too disabled to work - but - I am now being offered money for skills that I have that I thought nobody, in a zillion years, would ever pay me for, holding a type of meditation workshop.  I didn't even ask or advertise it - it just happened!

 

So - if in your conversations with your friends - this came up as important to your mental state, it is worth looking into.  Not impulsively (which is the borderline part), but make a plan, make a commitment, look for alternative solutions and stick to it.  

 

I suspect it is the impulse which frightened your wife - but - also the lifestyle change frightens her, too.  There was a famous Hollywood Starlet - maybe it was Mae West, or Betty Grable (I forget) who said:  "I've been poor, and I've been rich.  Money doesn't buy happiness, but it sure is a lot easier to be rich."  Having creature comforts is, well, comforting.  

 

It's not like you said, "We have to sell the house and live in a campervan on remote land without toilet or electricity."  (though I've had friends who took the "simplicity" thing to that level.)  But what were you thinking?

 

Fantasize a little bit?  Is there a smaller house that you and your family would like living in?  Maybe you could downsize your vehicle fleet?  Maybe you don't need (however many) so many things?  Would it ease your load?  In an extreme situation, could you find a less stressful job?

 

These are the kinds of repairs that are lasting, and the kinds of repairs that our extreme mental and emotional states are often pointing to.  But by all means, take your time, do it carefully, discuss it with wife and kids (moving schools can be traumatic, too).

 

Chessie's links:  

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes

 

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

are really excellent to!

 

I hope you see the sun today!

[LucyJed]

Hello

Well it's been 6 weeks since I last posted. My symptoms have changed a bit. The intense anxiety have diminished a lot and I am having an easier time functioning.
I am still being plagued by negative thoughts and some very depressive feelings. Sometimes suicidal ideation creeps in.
Also, I'm 57 and wonder often how long a can keep doing the advertising sales because it's stressful and unfulfilling
. But I keep pushing myself, mainly because of my wife and kid. They like the house and neighborhood where we live and our lifestyle. As I mentioned before, my wife is incapable of helping me with the withdrawl aspect I am experiencing and have endured for almost 4
Years. Our expenses are getting better, but it has taken me a long time to get her to help with keeping expenses in line. With regards to moving, I just don't think that I am emotionally and health wise capable of moving. And I keep thinking that once I recover I'll be sad that I moved ... Also, real estate in my area, Dallas Tx. Is very expensive and over valued.

It's been 14 months since my AD and benzo taper and I am doing better. Counseling, acupuncture, magnesium and massage help greatly. I keep making the mistake of thinking it's ok to drink some alcohol on the weekend. Which I pay for dearly on Sunday and Monday. I'm trying to slow down at work and keep my stress down. Also, missing a lot of work and taking time off. These deco operation days help, but they make my managers unhappy.
All in all I'm doing better and hoping that I can make a full recovery while still keeping my job, wife, home and being a god father. It's a lot to ask but I'm getting there.
It's sad that my wife cannot help me more, but my counselor says she's just not capable of helping and doesn't know what to do!
Who does? It's such a strange situation that we are going through, that very few understand, doctors deny, and has such a wide and bizarre set of symptoms. Plus I was always the strong leader and my wife is more passive and dependent.
Relationships are hard enough without the horrible drug withdrawl that persists for years. I guess I'm lucky she hasn't left. I can't imagine how hard a divorce would be in WD!
Sugar, alcohol, stress, lower back pain, junk food, negative thoughts and thinking in the past are my enemies.
My brain and nervous system are doing a good job healing. I'm getting 2 day and 3 day windows at a time and recently had a 10 day window where I thought I was better. Stress from work knocked me out of it. But I'm back, to eating better, swimming, counceling, drinking more water and meditating. I have been meditating most days, just not when I'm having anxiety - it's too hard.

I'm looking forward to my recovery and renewal.

LJ


years.

[Petunia]

Thanks for updating LucyJed, I'm happy to hear you're doing better now, it sounds like you're having some decent windows. You have some good self care tools in place and I'm sure that helps.

 

I look forward to your next update, where I'm sure you'll be even more recovered.

[LucyJed]

I have not written in a while. I'm still suffering from anxiety and insomnia. I need help because after quitting Luvox and Ativan 2 years ago I'm still suffering.

I still take 300 mg of lithium carbonate which is left over from a Dr that gave it to me because he said it would help my ssri work better. Now that I'm off the ssri and c/t on the benzos for 2 years im still having intense symptoms.

Does anyone know if lithium could be hindering my progress?

I'd like to get off of it but when I tried before it put me in a downward spiral so I reinstated.

Thanks for any help.

LJ

[ChessieCat]

Hi Lucy,

 

I'm asking the other mods for their thoughts on your situation.

[Altostrata]

LucyJed, are you getting regular kidney and liver function tests? Lithium use needs to be monitored.

 

Has it ever done you any good?

 

What is your daily symptom pattern. Please keep daily notes on paper about your symptoms, when you take your drugs, and their dosages.

[JanCarol]

Hey LJ,

 

I'm the lithium girl at the moment.

 

In general, lithium kind of "pads" or softens withdrawal.

 

Think about that for a minute.

 

It's like a cache, where stuff is buffered, to keep you from feeling the worst of it.

 

300 mg is not awful - but Alto is right - be sure to get your kidney and liver function tested.  Additionally - my tests looked "fine" according to my p-doc, but I was having symptoms of diabetes insipidus (peeing a lot, waking up in the night every hour, just to pee).  So - watch your symptoms, too.

 

Keep drinking plenty of water, and look at your electrolytes, too.  I have found that meat protein & fish oil, are great for stabilizing mood and anxiety.  I'm also a huge fan of tai chi (or chi gung) for settling the nerves.  This is my favourite video, but I've since developed my own 7 minute routine which addresses my specific hip and knee pain:

 

The symptoms you are describing don't sound like lithium symptoms, which are usually described as "heavy, flat, anhedonic, numb, wrapped-in-cotton-wool" sort of feelings.  Tapering the lithium when you are having anxiety runs the risk of releasing some of what might be in the buffer.   

 

I have no scientific evidence of that - it's from a conversation I had with a lithium-sister here on SA; we talked about how tapering the lithium seemed to release long blocked emotions and traumas.   If you went to a doc now, with the symptoms you describe, he'd be inclined to increase, rather than decrease the lithium (or add on a bunch of difficult "anti-anxiety" cocktails).  If it were me, with your symptoms, I would hold on the lithium until you feel better.

 

So - as Alto was talking about:  Keep notes on paper

 

I think what we are looking for is

Is there a time of the day when you have anxiety more often?  Do you wake with anxiety in the early morning?  Or have a spike of anxiety in the afternoon?  (these are normal cortisol spikes, but can be intensified in withdrawal.  If this is the case, you may be helped by an adaptogenic herb such as ashwaganda - see:  Ashwaganda for Anxiety, Stress and Toxic Overload).

 

Is there a pattern to the insomnia?  Is it worse after the weekend alcohol (or have you given that up?)?  Is it worse during the week, when you are churning the cement-mixer-of-your-mind and ruminating about what needs doing, what you shoulda-coulda-woulda done?  This is rumination, and can be addressed with cognitive and mindfulness based techniques.  Here's what I wrote about rumination elsewhere:

 

Rumination used to be a part of our survival, when we were living rough - how to protect the children from the bear, where to hunt next, what techniques for hunting work better, was that root really good to eat? - and many other survival items that we would ruminate on, after the sun went down, and talk about with our family or tribe.  It was a key part of learning and surviving.

 

The problem now, is that these survivals are now handled by modern society (when was the last time a bear was seen in your neighborhood?).  But our brains are thinking machines, it's what they do.  

 

So instead, the brain has other things to focus on:  should I have said that?  what did she mean?  I definitely shouldn't have done that!  Maybe I could've done better?  What if I'd said this instead?   These problems are unsolveable!

 

Then, the judgements come in (because the brain is a thinking machine, and you've exhausted all the scenarios, and your emotions are engaged, so you start to judge:  I am such a failure!  All I do is hurt people!  I am a burden to those around me, I am useless!

 

The first step is to disengage the emotions; as you found, the silly children's song is useful for that!

Then - learn to observe the thoughts, back away from judging them.  They are only thoughts, it is only your brain doing what it was born to do.  

 

The images I have used for thoughts are train cars, rattling by on a track.  You can jump on any one of them and go for a journey - but the goal is to let them go by - they are just thoughts on a track.  Let them go by.  As soon as that thought goes by, then another will take it's place.  Your brain is doing it's job.  You can even use the rhythm of the train tracks to tell yourself:  thinking, thinking, thinking.

 

The best way to separate yourself from thinking is to pay attention to your breathing.  When you focus only on your breathing, that connection between your body and the rest of the world - air - inhale, exhale, breathing - then you notice that the thinking is not so important.

 

Another image I have used is clouds.  You can't control thoughts, anymore than you can control clouds.  They come and go as they will, doing what they do.  (The Sound of Music has a line:  "How do you catch a cloud, and pin it down?")

 

The difference between me and a zen master, is that the zen master still thinks, but he has run so many thoughts down that track that his thoughts are more efficient.  He has traced the thought generating mechanism to its source in the brain, and manages to pay attention only to the thoughts which are useful.

 

He still has clouds in his skies, but they are clearer, brighter, and more likely to be productive.

 

Are there things which seem to set you off? Many of us are affected by foods - whether it's high histamine foods, or dairy or gluten.  Some people have been completely relieved of their anxiety just by quitting wheat.  I know - wheat is in nearly all American foods - but there are a number of issues with it:  modern wheat has more than double the chromosomes of ancient wheat, and is grown with high pesticide and herbicide practices that can affect your endocrine system.  Or maybe it's not food that sets you off - but loud noises, traffic, bright lights, fluorescent lights (what lights do you work under) - any sorts of "inputs" can fire your system.

 

Is the anxiety primarily physical?  Heart rate, blood pressure, firing of the nerves under the skin, jumpiness, restlessness, all physical symptoms of cortisol (adrenaline) firing in a fight-or-flight response.  I'm not suggesting that you ignore them - but perhaps if you can greet them with an ironic, "oh, it's you again, body, reacting when everything is just fine."

 

Or is the anxiety emotional? This is fear based thinking about "how will I make it?" and I won't go into the ruminations of fear - just know that it can spiral in on itself until you are afraid of fear itself.  This is best addressed, also with mindfulness.  Our BrassMonkey has come up with an excellent article on emotional spirals, and how to catch and address them, here:  Dealing with Emotional Spirals

 

At some point, you are going to want to come off the lithium.  If it's not going toxic on you, if you are well hydrated (and that includes electrolytes - my favourite way to get these is in pink himalayan or Australian gourmet salts), and are not suffering symptoms of kidney disfunction, and your lab tests for kidney and liver are coming back clear, you are probably fine on your lithium.  It is fairly low dose anyway - I was on 3x that at my peak, and have friends on 4x what you are taking.  Regardless, when you are anxious is not the best time to start a lithium taper.

 

I still think you can relieve some of the stress in your lifestyle, but I know that's a hard choice to make.

 

Keep up the amazing work with the magnesium, and the mindfulness - and I hope you see the sun today!

[LucyJed]

 Hello

it's been about a year since I last wrote in,  I was a little bit better And feeling well enough to attempt to withdraw from the luthium

the lithium wd has been two months and three weeks.

10% per month ...

everything was fine until a week ago and now I'm having horrible anxiety and agitation symptoms along with insomnia.

 I'm down to 210 mg from 300 mg what should I do is this normal ??

miserable again 

lj

[bubble]

Hello Lucy.

 

If you think you can't ride it out, you can updose a bit.

 

A longer hold after that will be very helpful. Also, this shows that your brain could really use smaller cuts or/and longer holds.

 

It's not really good news but with every cut you will be taking less and also have a decent quality of life.

 

Did you maybe have a chance to the WD survey?

 

https://roehamptonpsych.az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_6gSHZN88sOmHDlr

[LucyJed]

Hi Bubble

 Yes I took the survey hope it helps I guess I need to adjust my lithium reduction time to last more than 30 days I'm going to keep on the same dose for  hey while longer to see if my nervous system will calm down hopefully it will 

[JanCarol]

That's good to hear LJ, it sounds like a plan.

 

I did it like this:  I would taper for at least a month.  Then, in week 3 of the month, I would evaluate how I felt.  

 

If I was crunchy, moody, irritable, I would then hold for another month.  If I was in smooth sailing, I would prepare to taper again.

 

Listen to how you feel instead of the calendar.

 

How are you tapering?  Dry cutting?  (lacks accuracy)  Liquid tapers? (requires adjustment, as liquid is fast-release)

 

What form of tablets are you on?  If they are slow or extended release, you may need to take the lithium 2x a day.

 

Fire me another PM when you answer these, and I'll try to help.

 

And - I hope you see the sun today!

 

ps - what are you grateful for?  Keeping a gratitude journal is an awesome practice for building up your wellness and recovery bank!

[LucyJed]

 Hey JanCarol I'm using a compound pharmacy to get more accuracy it's expensive but  it seems the best.

after your lithium Taper was over did you feel better?  100%

I'm never really I had more than a 3 week window, where I felt 100% healed.

im hoping one day the sun will shine.

my gratitude is low unfortunately as I wake up every morning at 430a with anxiety attack.

work is rough and pressures of life are often overwhelming.

any positive healing truths will be appreciated 

LJ

[LucyJed]

Hello

im really sinking low    Lithium taper is not going well

need help with symptoms.  Insomnia for days.  

Anyone have experience?

[ChessieCat]

Q:  Are you keeping a symptom log?  Is yes, please post it here so that the mods can see what is happening.

 

Q:  What are your current symptoms?  Is it only insomina or do you have other symptoms?  If other symptoms we need to know them.

[JanCarol]

Hey LJ - 

 

KT said this:

On 08/02/2016 at 0:25 AM, KT38 said:

  It seems the better the window, the worse the wave after.  I just hope hope hope the waves get less intense. 

 

I would tend to say - that's not the case.  It's when you do too much in a window that the wave afterwards comes down like a ton of bricks.  

 

On 16/02/2016 at 1:53 AM, LucyJed said:

With all the anxiety and depression I am experiencing, I am wondering if this is me or is it the withdrawal?

 

Yes, and yes. 

 

There is a reason you started the drugs in the first place.

 

What have you done for your anxiety?

 

Here's what Claire Weekes has to say:

Dr. Claire Weekes - Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

On 26/02/2016 at 9:40 PM, LucyJed said:

I think this is because I am too negative and too anxious.

How much of this is chemical (amplified by drug withdrawal) and how much of it is your native, "glass half empty" or worse "glass half full of poison" state?

How much energy do you put into rumination?

 

How can you feed the right wolf?

 

 

I would add that one wolf is fear, and the other is courage.  Worry is abuse of your imagination - using it to harass your nervous system with worst case scenarios.

 

Here is one I just copied down from the Cowboy Havamal by Jackson Crawford:

 

"You should lie down to sleep and not think about tomorrow.

You'll take care of it then.

If you worry at night, you get nothing done,

and you're in worse shape for the day."  

(not bad for 1200 AD, eh?)

 

I asked a lot of questions in this post - that really, until we have the answers to these, we won't know what is going on with you.  Also, please update your signature so we can see how fast you tapered the lithium.  For now, plan on holding.

 

I do hear that you have a 4:30 "panic attack" in the am.  

 

What if it is just your body firing, and has nothing to do with "anxiety?"  Our normal cortisol spikes can fire in the early morning, and it seems to come out of the blue - but really - it's just an extreme (dysregulated) example of a normal state.  See:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/33-waking-with-panic-or-anxiety-managing-cortisol-spikes/ 

 

 

I do know that 2 years out from CT paxil and benzo withdrawal is sadly, a normal timeframe to still be suffering.

 

I'm sorry it's so hard, and that you are still struggling.  We have seen people struggle at the 2 year point, and still pull through - you can do this!

 

But you have to help yourself!  You need to reduce your stress patterns (it's extremely challenging to go through withdrawal and hold a high-powered job, maintain a marriage, support your kids - all of that)  - or improve your techniques for dealing with them.  Can you get counseling to help you with rumination and worry?  Just 10 minutes of meditation per day for 3 weeks (minimum) is enough to start improving your stress response, lower blood pressure, and improve sleep.  If nothing else, it helps you "dump" those extra thoughts and still your mind before trying to sleep.

 

I hope you see the Sun today - and perhaps find a way to reduce some of your stressors.

 

 

[JanCarol]

Hey LJ - 

Just checking in!

How you going?

 

Does your work get more frantic over Christmas (scrambling to get it all done for those few days off?)?  Or do you get a break coming up?

Still going to meditation?

How are your symptoms?

I encourage you to look over your thread - and maybe compare your symptoms when you came here with the symptoms you are having now.

The improvements may be subtle - but I'll bet you will find that you are better than you were a year ago!

You can use this as a tool for comparing symptoms:  Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's Most Common symptoms of Withdrawal

 

I hope you see the sun today!