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☼ Toulouse: My Paxil Withdrawal Journey

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Toulouse

I am so glad I toughed through the hard times and didn't reinstate. I was so close for a time. Finding the right therapist who is helping me with Mindfulness and meditation since June has made the difference I believe. (and of course, time).  Right now I am feeling pretty darned good. Still sleeping nicely and my anxiety is much much better. I'd say a 2 on a scale to 10. (very manageable).  I feel like my old self again.

 

Chief complaint is the muscle twitches that have returned. Again, like last February/March, it's in my right hand (predominant hand) but muscle twitches all over random spots on the body. I'm pretty sure it is BFS (benign fasciculation syndrome) because I also get the random muscle cramp.  My hand/thumb issues could coincidentally be from overuse on the keyboard, strain, overuse, and it's also a little tender.  In any event, I know a lot of us in WD deal with the twitching, buzzing muscles.

 

I'm only taking magnesium and probiotics on a routine basis. Though I may restart the Omega 3s. (i have taken Omegas sporadically the last few months and no ill effects, not sure what it's helping but I understand it helps reduce inflammation, which I have a lot of).

 

I believe that my healing process has been non-linear. One thing heals, goes away and something new develops. My anxiety and sleep issues went away last month and were replaced by physical symptoms (the twitching/cramps).  Hoping this goes away on its own soon and that I don't suffer any further setbacks. I do feel that I'm nearing the end of the long dark tunnel. I'm not out yet, but I feel like I can now see the light.

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KarenB

So happy for you Toulousse :)

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Toulouse

Just wanted to tell folks on here that at about 1.5 years off of Paxil (14 yrs use), I am feeling 85%+ back to my old self lately.  I get the odd ache, or pain. I get muscle twitches occasionally still.  My anxiety is still there, but much improved and manageable. I just rejoined the gym and am starting off slowly as I have not lifted a weight for 1.5 years. Old men were lifting more than me, so yes, I'm being careful to start and will stay very light with the weights and mix it with just brisk walking on the treadmill.  I don't want to overdo anything, and think I can build up eventually to a normal workout again, but I'm in no rush. Just going to the gym is a big deal.

 

Anyway,  I'm not 100%.  I still feel a little off here and there. But I feel finally the end of the tunnel is approaching and I'm starting to hit the light. I know there might be a setback in the future, but I now know they are temporary and I will be okay again.

 

Have a great Holiday and New Year.

 

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scallywag

Great news Toulouse!  Thanks for posting this hopeful update.

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Junglechicken

Well done Toulouse!! That's amazing, you have walked a very long walk.

 

One of these days I hope to see that light at the end of the tunnel.

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Toulouse

Well done Toulouse!! That's amazing, you have walked a very long walk.

 

One of these days I hope to see that light at the end of the tunnel.

Thank you! And you will.  Taking it one day at a time was key. Each day had different challenges.  Finding a good therapist to help me calm my mind down, and help me naturally deal with the anxiety issues I was having, and meditation helped a great deal.  I still have a little ways to go I think. But it's a huge improvement from even just 4 months ago.  Good luck to you, that your tunnel ends soon.

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KarenB

So encouraging for everybody :)

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Toulouse

Hi gang, I'm checking in again to let you all know of my continued progress.  I have to say that I feel really good.  I feel like I have my old self back, pre-Paxil.  I was just remembering this morning the journey I've had, all the aches and pains, insomnia, heavy anxiety, panic, dizziness, tinnitus, and more. Most of that is gone.  Every now and again I'll have some brain fog.  But I don't know if that's just the way I've always been, or diet.  I think I still have histamine issues. I still don't eat dairy, gluten or soy. And don't know if I should reintroduce any of them.  Still no coffee or alcohol.

 

I'm back at the gym and lifting weights again. Slowly, I have regained my strength and I'm starting to get muscles again.  My eye floaters, which really were bugging me a few months ago I don't notice anymore.  My night vision seems a bit better too.  

My wife went through a double mastectomy for stage 1 breast cancer in January, and through all of that, and the horrible emotions and toll that takes on a family, I did not regress.   I cried a lot, but I think I'd be more worried if I didn't.  (Her outlook is fantastic and she is doing really well in her recovery).

 

So in 2015, about this time, I was already into my taper. Now, 2 years later, I am finally feeling like my old self.  There is hope for others.  If you read through my old posts you will find times when I was feeling hopeless, felt like giving up and trying a new SSRI.  Times when I was scared for my life too.  I thought I was going to die at times because of this.

 

I'll state again that meditation and mindfulness practice is what turned it around for me last summer.  If you haven't tried it, please look into it. It can't hurt you.

 

This site was so helpful to me and I credit it with my recovery.  Thank you to everyone here who has posted to me, and to the wonderful moderators.  I will keep coming back so people know there are success stories out there.  

 

Best of health to you.

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snostorm

I would like to thank you for updating its heartening to hear success stories.  My road is just beginning.  Knowing healing happens helps.

 

Congratulations on your ongoing recovery

 

All the best

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KarenB

Thanks Toulouse, it really does give us all a boost to hear of your healing. 

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Altostrata

You are so very welcome, Toulouse. Very happy to hear you're doing better.

 

I added our cheerful "here comes the sun" symbol



to the title of your Intro topic, to show you're recovering.

Please continue to let us know how you're doing. I hope you will add your story to our Recovery Success Stories eventually!

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Toulouse

Just an update.  It's been a long time since I posted here.  I want to let everyone know that though a lot of my issues went away, or improved,  anxiety has been pretty much nagging me this whole year.  90% of it has been manageable anxiety I can live with. 

 

 I have weeks of feeling great,  but then come waves of anxiety that last weeks at a time. Then I'm pretty good again.  I've been on and off practicing mediation which helped me through the worst of it last year, but now I've learned I need to keep at it, and treat it as my daily medication or the anxiety will start to surface.

 

I am frustrated because I feel fine for the most part. But lately anxiety starts kicking in when I'm in restaurants (in particular) or large places.  I managed to go to one rock concert with not much anxiety. A little (a 3 on a scale of 10).  Then a couple weeks later I went to another concert,  and though it was a folk artist, very mellow music, my anxiety was at an 8 or 9 and we had to leave early.  


For the last two months my anxiety is getting worse. I have had work related stress. Someone close to me also recently destroyed their lives by careless and bad behavior. I think this triggered my anxiety, or added fuel to the fire. 

 

It's so frustrating, that it's gotten bad these last few weeks, that sometimes I long for the comfort of a pill that would take it away.  I can't, not after how far I've come.  I know it's anxiety and it won't last.  I've recovered so much, so hopefully this is just a hiccup and I'll get this anxiety back into the 'manageable' area. 

 

I am starting to think I might have to deal with anxiety the rest of my life. Maybe I'm just down after doing so well before. 

 

Tomorrow I am getting a diffuser to use with some essential oils (lavender) as I'm willing to try what I can to help calm my mind down.  I will do a search here and see if anyone has had any comfort using these.  If not, stay tuned here and I'll let you know how my meditation and lavender oil scents work.  Wish me luck.

 

I still think I am in the recovery, healing process.  I am not 'back' yet but building towards it. It's taking a long time, and I've had windows of normalcy. Large windows, which makes the return of anxiety all the more frustrating. I just want to be rid of this and move on.  I am 2.5 years off of Paxil.  I heard it takes 3 years to heal your brain somewhere. I am approaching the 3 year mark soon enough.  Hopefully a few months of healing will make all the difference. 

 

Toulouse

 

Edited by Toulouse

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Toulouse

Writing a new update.  Well, the last 8 or 9 months have been mixed. Mostly good, but then some bad creeps in.  I've had recurring periods of anxiety still.  Sometimes very bad, where I feel I wish I had a pill to make it go away.  But of course, I push through it and eventually things get better, usually after a few days. I meditate, see a therapist, and I think that helps. I also exercise regularly. I find when I stop exercising for a couple weeks, that's when the anxiety symptoms start up again. 


Last week I had two cavities filled, and since then, my anxiety revved up.  This week, the last three days or so, my toes feel a little tingly / numb.  That used to happen to my left middle toe before, but only in the morning and it would go away after a few minutes of being up. But now, after being gone for at least a year, it's sprouted up again, and it's giving me those sensations pretty persistently, and for three days now.  Also, it seems my other foot now is a bit tingly.  So I don't know if it's a nerve thing, something compressed, or if it's WD related? I looked the symptom up and of course MS pops up.  A lot of our symptoms look like MS, so I'm trying not to go down that rabbit hole. 

 

It's really frustrating because I've been doing so well, for so many months, and then to have this period of WD issues come back, is really upsetting.  I am contemplating Nuerofeedback to see if that can help me any.  

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bhasski
On 11/14/2016 at 5:25 AM, Toulouse said:

Chief complaint is the muscle twitches that have returned. Again, like last February/March, it's in my right hand (predominant hand) but muscle twitches all over random spots on the body. I'm pretty sure it is BFS (benign fasciculation syndrome) because I also get the random muscle cramp.  My hand/thumb issues could coincidentally be from overuse on the keyboard, strain, overuse, and it's also a little tender. 

 

This is the first time in SA I got correct definition of twitches I suffered for a long time.

My left predominant hand thumb feel jammed.. Also I had gone through ulnar neuropathy surgery  in the se hand after CT of meds. 

Still the hand feels jammed. Diffilculty to move fingers and thumb ( not if there is pain, but response when holding).

 

 

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Toulouse
10 minutes ago, bhasski said:

 

This is the first time in SA I got correct definition of twitches I suffered for a long time.

My left predominant hand thumb feel jammed.. Also I had gone through ulnar neuropathy surgery  in the se hand after CT of meds. 

Still the hand feels jammed. Diffilculty to move fingers and thumb ( not if there is pain, but response when holding).

 

 

My hand twitching stopped, this was a couple years ago now, but a few months ago, it came back for a few days.  The last couple weeks I'll get an odd twitch in a random leg muscle.  It happens more when I'm feeling heightened anxiety I think. And yep, BFS is what they call this.  I'm not worried now when I get a strange twitch. 

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LexAnger

If I were you, I would stay away from anything, I mean anything including neuro feedback. Just do what you did in the last couple years letting time to heal naturally.

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Toulouse
9 hours ago, LexAnger said:

If I were you, I would stay away from anything, I mean anything including neuro feedback. Just do what you did in the last couple years letting time to heal naturally.

Thank you, Lex. I'm so happy to have your input.   You are right, I am not going to take anything else, just my exercise and meditation and good diet.  And I'm no longer considering the Neurofeedback.  I was up reading horror stories from people it messed up and it's not something I'm going to risk.   I will just let time heal me.   My toe/foot is less tingly so far today, so that's a good sign. 

 

 

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LexAnger

Great to hear the sxs is less and you will stay the course of natural healing!

you are doing great with a rather fast taper and relatively fast recovery. I am sure you will have a success story of full recover very soon.

 

best,

lex

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Toulouse

So it's about 2 weeks now with the tingling in my left toe. I feel a tiny bit in my right foot now too. I sit down all day, so maybe that's it. But I read that numbness and tingling can be anxiety symptoms, or maybe it's still SSRI protracted WD symptoms.   

I'm trying not to worry, but I can't help it because it's every day and not going away so far.  It feels fine for a few hours at a time, then I feel the sensation again.  Really not happy with this. 

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Dalalea
7 minutes ago, Toulouse said:

So it's about 2 weeks now with the tingling in my left toe. I feel a tiny bit in my right foot now too.

My protracted WD actual started with tingling and numbness in my feet. I thought it was a lower back problem at the time. It progressed to burning on the soles of my feet and lots of numb feelings. It lasted a month or two and has gotten much better. At the time, I could feel every fiber in my socks! Now, I have a tiny bit of a numb feeling on the bottom of my toes but it isn't all the time so I hope it finally goes away.

Maybe it's just a stage in the brain restructuring process?

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Toulouse
42 minutes ago, Dalalea said:

My protracted WD actual started with tingling and numbness in my feet. I thought it was a lower back problem at the time. It progressed to burning on the soles of my feet and lots of numb feelings. It lasted a month or two and has gotten much better. At the time, I could feel every fiber in my socks! Now, I have a tiny bit of a numb feeling on the bottom of my toes but it isn't all the time so I hope it finally goes away.

Maybe it's just a stage in the brain restructuring process?

Thank you for writing, Dalalea.  Usually for me when one symptom would go away, a different one would take its place soon after.   This is similar in that sense, as right before this, I suffered some acute anxiety for a few weeks.  Now the anxiety is gone, but this symptom has taken its place.   I hope it goes away soon because it's giving me a new anxiety.    But knowing other people who've gotten off the SSRIs have also dealt with this symptom makes me feel not so alone in this.   I can only speculate that my CSN is just hypersensitive as I'm also very sensitive to gluten and soy after coming off, possibly a histamine intolerance.  The insomnia or sleep disturbances, aching joints, anxiety...  All of this is connected.  I've had many months of feeling about 80%, and recently this pops up out of nowhere. (as do occasional spikes in anxiety).  It's really frustrating because right when I get comfortable, and think I'm out of the woods, I'm reminded I was on this powerful drug for 14 years. 

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Dalalea
49 minutes ago, Toulouse said:

It's really frustrating because right when I get comfortable, and think I'm out of the woods, I'm reminded I was on this powerful drug for 14 years. 

I totally get it! Keep healing!

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nz11

Toulouse

Will keep this brief 

refer my drug sig 

thanks 

nz11

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samanthaelizabeth

Hello- Your story is very inspiring!  You got through it in 2 years.  I will have to taper for about 6 years!  Please come back an tell us how you are doing.

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Toulouse

Dear friends,  my update is a good one. And one that,  I only hope, brings hope to others.  I've passed my 3 year mark off of Paxil back in August.  I have been feeling much better overall.  The tingling I had in my feet ended up being neuromas and not a big deal, corrected with shoe inserts.   This past July I got stricken with GERD.  It was pretty bad, and relentless. After a couple of months I took my doc's advice and did an upper endoscopy. I was terrified of course that it would show something horrible.  It showed just mild reflux.  Was prescribed a PPI that I can take (raberprazole) because I am a fast metabolizer for the other PPIs.  I disobeyed the doc's orders and tamed the condition with Zantac instead.  Occasionally I'll take the PPI, but overall the last month I've been getting much better.


I had a pharmacogenomics panel done earlier this year and besides PPIs,  I also am to avoid any and all psychiatric drugs.  The documents state that I am a fast metabolizer for these drugs and that I am at greater risk for medical failure and adverse effects.  Of course, Paxil is on the list, which I took for 14 years.  Also the document explains to use great caution coming on or off this drug.  Which would explain why I had such a hard time getting off the drug and dealing with WD for the last 2 + years.  


I always had a vision of a door, an open one on the horizon, that one day, with enough walking, I would reach and step trough and for this to finally be over.  So many times, I felt the door was getting closer, then other times, the door seemed so far away, like I would never reach it and I was walking on a treadmill.   

But this 3rd year I really turned a corner.  I somehow, along the way, reached the damned door. 

 

Outside of the physical ailments, the Gerd, the foot neuromas,  (either can be WD related, or not, who knows?) I've been doing much, much, much better.  My anxiety is pretty low, almost gone.  I rarely get it or think about it.  This was my main symptom in WD, so it's a huge relief and I finally felt like I got my life back.  (aside from the GERD, I have been doing great this year).  The only nagging issue is occasional periods of insomnia.  It comes and goes.  Sometimes for a week or two, then I'm back to normal. I think it's stress related and I need to start practicing my meditation again. 

 

I have small WD issues like eye floaters,  and once in a while, muscle twitching, but it's been pretty rare.  I think the first 2 years were hellish for me and the last year and a half, a slow, gradual build towards normalcy.  I've put off writing here for fear it might jinx me, but I thought folks out there struggling should hear of my progress.  


What I do now to stay healthy:  I either walk 30 minutes a day or I go to the gym for some light cardio and light weights.  I eat pretty healthy, but I do like my cookies. I am no longer gluten free.  I discovered I had another allergy all together that was causing my hives. However, I limit soy and am still dairy free.  I am a healthy weight for the last 3 years when this began.   I drink decaf coffee (1 cup with almond milk).   So, no caffeine really.   I also rarely drink. I was 0 alcohol for most of these 3 years but recently I'll have one glass of wine every few weeks. Not a lot, but it's nice to enjoy a nice glass if I feel like it.  I can't and won't dare take up drinking more than that. 

 

I try to have as little stress in the house as possible.  Things are fairly calm at home.    I have lowered my pace / workload professionally. Luckily I can control my schedule.  After a stressful first half of the year, I made adjustments when I saw the stress was creeping back up.    

 

I do believe the drugs took their toll on me and I have suffered quite a bit, during and off the drugs.  I think some of the damage will last my lifetime, but whatever WD symptoms I get these days have been mild enough for me to brush off as something else (which is itself an testament to how far I have come).  

 

So as a guy in his late 40s, having been on Paxil 14 years. I'm 3 years out and feel pretty damned close to healed.  

 

I hope each and every one of you finds the door. 

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ChessieCat

That's a wonderful update.  Congratulations and thank you for letting us know.

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Centime

Thank you for this post! I’ve been on Paxil for 30 years, since it first appeared, and have been struggling now for ten years to get off it (repeated failed attempts). Now I’m on a very slow taper, down to 30 mg.s, feeling terrible but determined. Grateful for this site. Your story gives me hope.

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Toulouse
55 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Hi Toulouse,

 

SA has a success-stories-recovery-from-withdrawal forum.  It would be great if you could add your success story there. :D

 

 

ChessieCat, Yes, I most definitely will.  I will summarize everything in a way I hope is most useful.  
 

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Toulouse
36 minutes ago, Centime said:

Thank you for this post! I’ve been on Paxil for 30 years, since it first appeared, and have been struggling now for ten years to get off it (repeated failed attempts). Now I’m on a very slow taper, down to 30 mg.s, feeling terrible but determined. Grateful for this site. Your story gives me hope.

 

Sending you warm wishes.

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Longroadhome
On 7/27/2015 at 6:31 AM, Toulouse said:

Hello everyone, I am a first time poster, long time Paxil user.   I have been on Paxil for about 12 years or so, prescribed by my doctor to combat anxiety.  My anxiety was never severe, I just fell down the slippery slope of Paxil use after what should have just been a bump in the emotional road for me.  Long story short, I've decided to taper off of the Paxil 20mg (down from 40mg a couple years prior). 

 

This year my doc advised me to cut from 20mg to 10mg. (I know now, way too much and too fast).  I had brain zaps, irritablilty, and vivid dreams (which I actually don't mind since they are usually pleasant) and some dizziness.  After a few weeks I was feeling OK enough to go from 10mg to 5mg. I was good for about 3 weeks.  But the next two weeks I suffered from severe anxiety - unlike any kind of despairing feeling I've ever had in my life! I suddenly became an emotional wreck and was just at wits end.  So I went from 5mg Paxil back up to 10mg.  A week or so later - hives.

 

Hives, - small ones, on my neck or forearms. They'd go away after a couple hours so I didn't put too much worry into it.  Then a week after these small hive appearances, I had a really bad outbreak of hives on my legs, which I thought was just a heat rash. I didn't take an anti-histamine, I hate the way they make me feel.  Big mistake. I ended up waking up at 4 in the morning, itching terribly all over my body.  I was searching for Benadryl downstairs when my wife found me - at which point I was getting dizzy and nauseous. I was going into anaphylactic shock.  My wife and I both thought I was dying, my children sobbing as they waited by the front door for the ambulance to arrive. 

 

I've never had allergies really.  I am allergic to cats, it turns out, but I've had my cat for 3 years (a Persian which I found to not feel allergic reactions to in the past- and who has since been living with my brother till this all gets ironed out).

 

So this anaphylaxis was not something I was prepared for.  An amulance ride later, they told me I had some kind of allergic reaction.

 

A few weeks later, after seeing an allergist, he suspected my bizarre reaction to be caused by a medicine (not a food or other allergen).  I only take Paxil, and Propecia. (which I've stopped last week to try to rule that out as a cause of the hives).  I still get small areas of redness on my skin, primarily when I wake up in the AM.  And for now I'm on antihistimines, which I dislike greatly.

 

I am wondering if the traumatic, despair-like anxiety feelings I suffered, and then yo-yo-ing back to a higher dosage of Paxil did a number on my body and made me overly sensitive to histamines, or my cat.  Since my allergist suspected Paxil as a possible cause of the hives/anaphylaxis, I have since tapered back down to 5mg, and three days ago down to 2.5mg.  I suspect its not the actual Paxil causing the hives, but the withdrawal itself, the toll it takes on my body and mind. 

Just hoping putting my story out there, if anyone can relate to such a physical reaction like what I experienced, and if they too, think it is related to the Paxil withdrawl.

 

Thanks for reading.

Cheers

Hello there 

I see you are feeling back to normal 

can you tell me how did your hives/itchy rash go? How long did it take ? 

Great to see another survivor of Paxil

thank you  

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Mchaidez

Hi there,

 

The same thing happened to me with the hives after tapering off of Paxil. I had severe hives that would exacerbate with stress or anytime I’d get sick, like catch a cold, or any time I’d start my menstrual cycle. Heat also made them worse, as did high pollen counts. It was miserable. For me it lasted about 2 years. I went to doctor after doctor and no one could tell me why this was happening to me. After this, I got pregnant and I haven’t had any other episodes besides the occasional stress hive that’ll pop up on my face. Getting off of Paxil basically threw my immune system into overdrive. I think it made my mast cells react. After googling “mast cells and anti depressant” I found articles with people having the same experience as me. 

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Toulouse
37 minutes ago, Longroadhome said:

Hello there 

I see you are feeling back to normal 

can you tell me how did your hives/itchy rash go? How long did it take ? 

Great to see another survivor of Paxil

thank you  

So, here's what I think happened.  I think my body was just really messed up after coming down from the Paxil.  Whatever was going on, created a sudden allergic reaction, but I didn't know what.  Until just last year.   After finding a 3rd allergist, this one was able to diagnose what was causing me the hives.  Rice.   I apparently developed a rice allergy during my  weening / withdrawal from Paxil.  I no longer get the hives because I stopped all rice ingredients.  But I am still sensitive to things I wasn't before, like dust mites, and environmental.  I never had a problem with allergies (except for cats) until that crazy experience.   The night I almost died was because I drank a concentrated rice whey protein shake.  I had no idea about what caused such a deadly scenario until last year. So I had major health anxiety for the last 3 years, worrying if some other anaphylactic event would strike without a moments notice again.   Luckily, that fear is no longer with me and I am happier and healthier having come out the other end of this.  

 

I still get a little anxious, usually when I'm overstimulated.  Loud places with too many things happening at once sometimes.  But even then, I am okay. I can go to concerts again, large gatherings, and I no longer feel anxious.   

 

Meditation helped me a couple years ago, get over the hump.  I don't meditate anymore, but I aim to try to get back to it soon.  I can't believe I went through all of that.  I took me 3.5 years maybe to feel normal again. 

 

Only strange things that I attribute to the Paxil usage are sometimes I get aches and pains.  Cramps in certain muscles.  Sometimes muscle twitches.  They stick around a few weeks then go away.  I have really itchy ears that I can't fix.  My feet both have neuromas (which is strange for me).  It could be just getting older (I'm almost 50).  But I'm in pretty good shape otherwise.   I'd say my anxiety is gone for at least the last 1.5  years now, maybe longer.   

 

It's been 4 years since my last pop of the pill. 

 

Hope this message gives others hope. 

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Longroadhome

Thank you for your prompt reply! 

I too get very itchy ears . 

So  many symptoms of ADs . 

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Longroadhome
On 10/9/2019 at 4:35 PM, Mchaidez said:

Hi there,

 

The same thing happened to me with the hives after tapering off of Paxil. I had severe hives that would exacerbate with stress or anytime I’d get sick, like catch a cold, or any time I’d start my menstrual cycle. Heat also made them worse, as did high pollen counts. It was miserable. For me it lasted about 2 years. I went to doctor after doctor and no one could tell me why this was happening to me. After this, I got pregnant and I haven’t had any other episodes besides the occasional stress hive that’ll pop up on my face. Getting off of Paxil basically threw my immune system into overdrive. I think it made my mast cells react. After googling “mast cells and anti depressant” I found articles with people having the same experience as me. 

Thank you M for your reply did you get heat rash too as this is what has started happening to me ? 

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Toulouse
1 hour ago, Longroadhome said:

Thank you M for your reply did you get heat rash too as this is what has started happening to me ? 

No heat rash, but I would get hives working out sometimes, if I pushed myself too hard. I think it still happens from time to time.  But I agree, something messed up my immune system and the mast activation, I don't think anyone will ever figure that out.  We just have to be careful not to have an overload like I did.  Take Benadryl if you're having a lot of hives.  I take Claritin from time to time if I see small hives.   I'm much better than before with the hives, but I've been avoiding rice.  (so maybe also it's wise to try a second or in my case, third allergist to get to the root of it).  There is something that we're sensitive to, so finding that piece of the puzzle can help a lot. 

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