Hi, so glad to be here! -- from Lor95

[Rhiannon]

Healing, thanks so much for your kindness in replying to me.

I really don't think the xanax is the problem - I don't seem to get adverse affects from, say, taking 0.5 mg for a few days, then 0.25 then nothing the next. In the early days when I ignorantly cold turkeyed and went to hell after a couple of weeks/months, I would updose and take up to 2mg of xanax whilst stabilising, be fine within a month and just cold turkey the xanax with NO problems.

Updosing seroxat doesn't work like that anymore for me. Last time I updosed back to 20mg it took 4 months to feel noticeably better (nowhere near well though) and then crashed again after a couple of months.

It's the seroxat/paxil. I'm pretty sure I'm in tolerance but scared to drop in case it ruins everything I've done so far. I don't think it's an option anymore to updose.

A lot of people get terrible anxiety in withdrawal, I get absolute soul crushing depression AS WELL..that's another thing that scares me. I feel so alone with that.

 

up and down dosing xanax is a very bad idea IMO...

 

I actually know a lot more about benzos and benzo wd than about ADs although I have taken ADs for 19 years and am tapering off one now. But please take my word for it until I get the chance to explain more--intermittent use of Xanax at variable updosing and downdosing can be contributing to your problems more than you know, especially since you do have a past history of cold turkeying it in the past, and with benzos a past history of cold turkey bodes poorly for future use.

 

Please try to not do this! far far better to pick a specific dose, break it into four parts and take some every six hours, or split it up even more often (xanax only stays in your plasma for a short time so you will actually get withdrawal between doses--called "interdose withdrawal--if you don't take it in multiple evenly spaced doses).

 

Benzo withdrawal can feel very much (or even exactly) like Paxil withdrawal. My friend Gianna who has known so many people on so many meds says that all the drugs cause overlapping and similar w/d symptoms that can be impossible to distinguish.

 

You may have no idea how much trouble that stuff is causing. I was absolutely dumbfoundedly amazed how much better I felt once I got proper control over my xanax blood levels. I'm more stable and functional now, although tapering and in withdrawal, than I ever was back when I was taking xanax only once a day. (I dose Xanax every three hours, liquid titration.)

 

Far better to find a dose, dose evenly throughout day and night, and stay consistent from one day to the next.

 

Xanax is not your friend, trust me. And definitely not like aspirin, something to take just when you feel bad. It's another psych med that remodels your synapses just like all the rest, and if you up and down dose it scrambles them just like the SSRIs do when you up and down dose those.

 

You wouldn't take Paxil just here and there, some days and not others; it's no safer to do that with benzos than it is with Paxil. These drugs are ALL like that. You can't just take them when you feel like it and expect them not to produce neurochemical chaos.

 

And it also is very quickly addictive, and will produce withdrawal symptoms even a few hours after a dose, and those symptoms can be sneaky and really make you think they're "just you" or coming from something else.

 

And just because it was not a problem in the past means nothing now--so many people I have met c/t'd off their first benzo and got over it, then years later took another one and went into protracted horrible wd.

 

So please please please...! be careful and controlled with the Xanax! Aaaaaaaah! It is SO powerful.

 

Plus, look at it as an opportunity--perhaps if you did use Xanax in a manner that would result in stable blood levels rather than chaos, you might find yourself feeling quite a bit better, and that would be a good thing, no?

 

Also: I can't agree with the people who say just stop taking the Xanax now and don't use it. You don't need Xanax withdrawal on top of what you're already going through. That would be a fresh hell you don't want to visit.

 

IMO better to take control of it and use it in a way that will provide stable, consistent blood levels, and stick with that until you're in good enough shape to taper off of it properly.

[Rhiannon]

"I HATE taking the xanax, but I only do so when I feel suicidal due to the mental anguish of it all and I feel I have no other option. Since my crash in April last year I have taken it but not consistently, as yet never more than 1mg a day for a period, then start weaning it down as soon as I feel able. I don't think I've taken 1mg for more than 2 weeks in

succession (YET). But my symptoms are SO severe. There was even a period of a couple of months late last year when I don't think I took any."

 

1 mg of Xanax is equivalent to 20 mg of Valium. The "minimum therapeutic dose" of Xanax, sort of like 10 mg of Paxil, is 0.25 mg. So 1 mg of Xanax is not a small dose. It would not be unusual for someone to have to take a year to taper safely off 1 mg of Xanax. I have never taken that much in a single day myself.

 

What you are describing is absolutely a recipe for benzo withdrawal hell, even if Paxil wasn't in the picture.

 

Now that I have reread your post on this I feel all the more strongly that I must urge you to treat your Xanax withdrawal, which you are undoubtedly experiencing, since benzo withdrawal can go on for years,

 

as every bit as serious and probably contributing just as much to your suffering as the Paxil withdrawal.

 

Like AD withdrawal, benzo withdrawal isn't something that just happens for a few days. It can take many months or years, and it will be affecting you and causing a whole range of unpredictable and varying symptoms throughout that whole time.

 

ALL OF THESE MEDS ARE SERIOUS.

 

I usually don't scream at people and I try very hard not to frighten people, but this is quite serious, please believe me. Using benzos in this way is absolutely a recipe for producing poor outcomes. Ouch. Yikes.

 

This is why we need forums for polydrug situations! YAAAAARGH! I could have kept you from getting into such trouble if I had known, but I was over on the benzo forum! Oh, I'm so sorry--dammit, I hate hate hate the people who make these drugs, who prescribe them so irresponsibly and give out such poor information or none at all--and they're getting fat and rich and none of us are getting paid a penny for helping their victims. GRRRR!

 

okay, going to put away the computer.

 

Please don't panic, but do take this very, very seriously.

[alexjuice]

Hey Lor,

 

I feel for you. My symptoms are somewhat different, I don't get depression so much as anxiety, stress, fear and resultant dysfunction. But I know what it's like to be in a tough situation where there is no sinlge authority to provide one answer that you can trust. I find myself in the same situation. Not knowing. Fear. Will this last forever.

 

From everything I have learned, it is very, very likely that it will NOT last forever. That you will, in time, recover. I often have to remind myself of this in my own case when I am feeling very badly. I know it's possible that my nightmare will last forever. But it is possible that the Earth will explode tomorrow. The ODDS are dramatically in favor of my healing and the Earth continuing on for another good while. So I accept the notion that even though it seems to never-end, I have to guard against projecting my feelings in the moment into infinity for my own sanity and will to carry on. Others have walked in my shows and tell me that it does end. I have to trust them because they have experience and odds on their side. All I have on my side is my own thinking which is influenced by my feelings which are influenced by the fact that I am in withdrawal hell.

 

 

Alex.I

 

ps - I believe in you.

[alexjuice]

So 1 mg of Xanax is not a small dose. It would not be unusual for someone to have to take a year to taper safely off 1 mg of Xanax. I have never taken that much in a single day myself.

 

What you are describing is absolutely a recipe for benzo withdrawal hell, even if Paxil wasn't in the picture.

 

This is totally true in my experience.

 

If you are taking it daily for a period of two weeks then quickly dropping down to 0, then taking everyday for two weeks again, and repeating the process then there is a reasonable chance that you are inducing w/d on each stopping. Xanax w/d symptoms have a reputation as probably the most unbearable of any of the benzo drugs. And benzo w/d has produced as much pain as antidepressant w/d, if not more.

 

Xanax is probably not the ideal drug for symptom alleviation unless you were using it very sparingly, like one small dose a month or so, since it induces such horrific distress upon stopping once any kind of dependence develops. I've been completely dependent on benzos (though not Xanax) and then I stopped them essentially cold turkey. This reduced me to a shell of a human being.

 

I have so much sympathy for your situation.

 

The longer-acting benzodiazepines, often diazepam (Valium,) are often recommended as a substitute to Xanax and are considered more accommodating (generally) to tapering. You can google The Ashton Manual by Dr. Heather Ashton, if you haven't already, to get a better understanding of some of the issues involved in benzo dependence. There are also a couple of very good forums on issues related to benzo withdrawal, though I am not sure if I want to publish a link. But contact me through PM, or whatever messaging, and I'll tell ya what sources I've found reliable and useful. Rhi also sounds very experienced with this.

 

That said, there are no easy answers. For instance, I am still taking benzos at this time. However, everything Rhi said is correct in that the start and stop Xanax use might actually be causing some of your problems or making existing problems worse.

 

Best wishes to you. And remember that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. The light will get brighter and brighter, believe in this, even if this light is, as yet, not discernable.

 

Alex.i

[Rhiannon]

"The longer-acting benzodiazepines, often diazepam (Valium,) are often recommended as a substitute to Xanax and are considered more accommodating (generally) to tapering. "

 

Valium (diazepam) breaks down into metabolites that are also active benzos themselves, so the "down" from Valium is slower and smoother than with the "new" benzos like Ativan, Xanax and Klonopin. Unfortunately many doctors are under the false impression that Valium is somehow more dangerous or more addictive than these "new" benzos. (After all, that's what they're taught--by the KOLs paid by the pharmaceutical companies, who of course LOVE these highly addictive drugs.)

 

Actually just IMO if I were going to recommend a "rescue" dose of a benzo to someone to help with withdrawal symptoms (which I probably never will do) I think Valium would be my first choice.

 

Xanax really only produces a calming effect for about four hours and then wears off, leaving you feeling worse than you felt to begin with. It quickly produces tolerance and rebound anxiety. (Really the only "safe" or appropriate use of Xanax would be for short, intense panic attacks, used no more than once a week.)

 

At least with Valium you get a more gradual wearing off effect, less of a spike, more of a curve.

 

There is no benzo that's not bad news though.

 

On the benzo forums I generally advise people not to take ADs to "help" with their withdrawal symptoms (as they are so often advised to do by their doctors) unless it's to the point that they're considering self-harm or going into the hospital. I would have to say the same with using benzos to help with w/d symptoms from ADs. And in both cases people need to understand that they are taking another addictive drug that they will have to taper off of eventually, AND that adding any new psych drug into the mix is always a crapshoot.

 

But enough with Benzos 101. I do think that an alternative worth considering in this situation might be using Valium instead of Xanax as a "rescue" medication. Preferably, however, getting onto a consistent dosing schedule and staying with it until one is ready to taper off slowly.

[Altostrata]

Lor, how are you doing?

 

Are you using Paxil liquid? According to this UK site, it's available. Perhaps if you made tinier decreases while tapering?

[Altostrata]

Lor, what did you decide to do? Are you still tapering off paroxetine?

[Tricia]

Hi Lor. I am new here and not giving much advice since I am going through this as well. I too experienced the severe depression once I started tapering my Effexor and now while off as well. I have only been off for about 3 weeks and I am still having issues. I wish I had advice to give. The only thing that really helped me is 5HTP and you can not take that while still taking an SSRI. At this point all I can say is hang in there. Take it one day at a time. Lean on the people here since we know all too well what you are going through!

[SaveMooses]

Actually just IMO if I were going to recommend a "rescue" dose of a benzo to someone to help with withdrawal symptoms (which I probably never will do) I think Valium would be my first choice.

 

Actually, for the rough spots for me, I'm using 5 to 10 mg Valium AS NEEDED. It definitely helps me especially with that "crushing depression" so far. Lor, please listen to these people because they are definitely understanding to what we are going through. And after discovering this web site and doing what they tell me, I have vastly improved.

 

I personally thing Paxil is one of the worst to try to get off of. I was on it for 2 years (and lost most of my memories) and was able to get off of it because I got back on Zoloft. I only got prescribed it when I started having anxiety attacks over a "situation" that would have passed within the year. Now I wish I just had Valium at the time for "as needed". It took me about 5 years to get my memories back. To do that, I just started taking classes galore and tried learning a new language (brain exercises).

 

Hang in there! I understand that crushing depression. Please don't let it win. Just remember it is how we physically feel right now and it will pass. You will see the sunlight again. In fact, make yourself sit in it once in a while.

[Lor95]

Hi there lovely folks at SA....I really am so glad you're here for me.

 

Alto, thank you so much for all your work on this site.

Alex, your post touched my heart - thank you.

Rhi, thank you for your insightful input.

Pun, I have worked out who you are and I almost started crying when I realised (I wonder if you remember me from the other place?)

And EVERYONE who has posted on my thread.

 

I survived March 31st, one of my worst days ever. I was going to give up everything and escape to my family in Italy to have them look after me. But this would mean leaving my partner indefinitely, giving up my job (and therefore losing our house), losing my valued therapist, and everything else that is familiar and a "comfort" (sometimes nothing helps).

 

Somehow I limped on.

I even experienced some good days towards the end of April and the beginning of May.

 

My father passed away at the end of June. Funny thing is, I can't seem to grieve in this state. When he died, I was having a good few days and I felt I was grieving as a "normal" person would. I even flew back to Italy and was pretty much "fine" for that entire week. Whilst I thought this event on top of withdrawal would have to mean the end of me, it wasn't. When I came back home I fell back into withdrawal symptoms and I no longer grieved. It was just survival. Even now I only grieve when I don't feel overwhelming symptoms. It's like the body can't do both at once.

 

I continue to drop (I have now added this in my signature). At the moment I am having very dark days.

I can do nothing but take it day by day, hour by hour.

And reach out for your support.

[Ucfgemini]

Hi Lor,

 

I can relate to how you're feeling. My feelings are all over the place- sometimes I have anxiety over my health and am scared of dying, other times my anxiety and obsessive thinking make me feel like I want to kill myself (even though I don't). When I have those overwhelming feelings I take half of a xanax as well.... I have taken half a pill in the 4 weeks I have been withdrawing. It seems like once my body slows and relaxes it is easier to manage the thoughts. I have been reading alot of "self-help" books and I definitely noticed a pattern in the way I think. One of the things they tell you do is literally change the channel. When I have that glimpse of a thought about death (which is usually what starts my depression) I have to literally say change the channel and try to think of something else... it is so hard, but if you're like me you have to stop the thought train.

 

I started taking Paxil when I was 19 and stayed on it for about 6 years before switching to Zoloft. The withdrawals were VERY difficult. I had such emotional withdrawals that I went on a different SSRI probably a month after stopping. The way I have had to treat this whole thing is (and I'm not saying this is the way to do it)... I knew that my Lexapro was not doing what I needed it to do anymore, and I also knew that I wanted to have a baby. I do NOT want to be on ANYTHING when I'm pregnant. BUT, if it gets to the point where my health was so compromised that my life or the baby's life was in jeopardy from depression.. yes, I will take something. I spoke with three Doctors who all said none are 100%, but Prozac and Zoloft have the best results. SO, I told myself- knowing that meds are an option (even though I don't want them) helps me in a way. I know that I am doing this for me because I want to, not because I have to. One thing that has been invaluable to me is acupuncture... you may want to try it out!

[angie007]

HI lOR,

 

Well am i glad to see you here today, although i really do wish it was under different circumstances my dear friend.

I am so sorry to hear that your in that dark place yet again, but i guess, some of that is down to the sad fact that your dear dad died recently, and i'm so sorry, there is never a good time to lose someone you love,and certainly while tapering and in wd is far from the right time. The guilt we feel while going through this is indescribable, we feel we don't react in the right way, we don't grieve in the right way, and that is all so normal - our lives are so far from normal while in this state, so it makes sense that our thinking would appear to us, not to be normal either. I know you loved your father and i know in you way you are really going to miss him and grieve just as you would if paxil was not involved, and in time you will come to terms with what has happened here.

 

The darkness will pass in time , just as all the other symptoms do from time to time, and you will get through this time, with the help of everyone here, and im here for you too, you know how to contact me anytime, it will be so good to catch up hun, whenever you feel up to it.

Remember, you are so not alone, we do understand, and we do care, and we are always here to help in any way we can.

Just keep putting one foot in front of the other and you will get there.

Speak soon and GOD BLESS xxxxxx have been thinking of you.

[Altostrata]

Lor, is there a way you can make drops of .125mg instead of .25? I know this sounds ridiculous, but maybe this would be a little easier for you and you might be able to decrease more often.

[Lor95]

Lor, is there a way you can make drops of .125mg instead of .25? I know this sounds ridiculous, but maybe this would be a little easier for you and you might be able to decrease more often.

 

Hi Alto,

 

I'm making 0.5 drops......just curious, what leads you to suggest this? That would mean smaller drops in quicker succession, right? Is this what you did? or maybe you've seen some success in tapering this way?

I know Rhi is doing something like that, but she is much lower in dose and she seems to stabilise between drops. I don't stabilise in any recognisable pattern.

[Altostrata]

It may be the .5mg drops are too big for your nervous system. What you want to do is make drops your nervous system will hardly notice.

 

Yes, I've had success in making extremely tiny drops more often. I believe this is a method that can work.

 

Given that you're feeling so poorly, why not try a .25mg drop next time and see if it's a bit better? Or even a .125mg drop?

[Lor95]

It may be the .5mg drops are too big for your nervous system. What you want to do is make drops your nervous system will hardly notice.

 

Yes, I've had success in making extremely tiny drops more often. I believe this is a method that can work.

 

Given that you're feeling so poorly, why not try a .25mg drop next time and see if it's a bit better? Or even a .125mg drop?

 

Alto, were you dropping this slowly from a high dose?

That would mean my next dose would only be a 1.56% drop (if 0.25 mg), if my maths is correct. Does that sound right to you?

[Altostrata]

I wasn't tapering paroxetine.

 

The percentage doesn't matter as much as the effect on your nervous system. We suggest a 10% drop as a starting point.

 

If you have to make smaller decreases, you can do that, to minimize suffering and damage.

 

Your body will tell you how often you will be able to make smaller decreases.

[Lor95]

I am in crisis. I haven't posted this in my intro thread because I need advice and support urgently. I reach out especially to Pun, who I know experienced severe tolerance withdrawal, and indeed everyone who would describe their withdrawal experience as extreme. I am weaning about 3% drops at the moment, and trying to go very slowly. But I can't seem to hold without at some point (and this varies in time with each drop)being hit with extreme withdrawal. Today (day 19 at 16 mg) I am house-bound. I feel sick to my stomach with anxiety, severe depression, and nonsensical type thoughts and images running through my mind. I try to sleep but as soon as I close my eyes, this phenomenon is extremely severe, time seems to pass and indescribable rubbish is running through my mind. It's a bit like a stupor of some kind, and extremely scary. I am seriously confused at times, I feel truly insane. The reason I think I might be in tolerance w/d and I might be holding too long is that when I started my last wean in 2010, I was doing ok until I had a "break" at 15. I decided to stay there for a few months but over the course of 3 months, things kept getting worse until I reached the stage I am now and felt I had to updose to 20mg. Who knows, maybe I should have dropped instead? But the updose only bought me a little relief and I held and held for months but didn't stabilise. I CANNOT stabilise, although at some stages during the wean I have been doing ok, and then I reach a crisis point like now (my last really bad crisis was March 31 - I posted here). I know some of you have suggested even smaller drops, but I don't know. It sounds like tolerance to me. Please help - I am desperate and feel as if I'm holding on to my sanity by a thread.

[tramond]

Hoi Lor

 

Thanks for your words in my blogg!!

Iam verry sorry and sad, you are in the same situation!!

The sun is out, there is summer outside and we are like in grave!!!

 

Warm cuddles to you!!

 

tramond

[tramond]

éor

 

Can I ask you what are your symptoms??

[Lor95]

Hi Tramond,

 

My current symptoms are described in the section on "Tapering" - I posted a new thread today in desperation.

You see, I'm still tapering and I don't know what to do.

[Baxter]

Lor, I am so sorry that you are suffering so. I am going to offer a suggestion as you seem to be in tolerance and feel horrible, why not try another small drop? Try to see if the level of suffering that you now experiencing gets worse, stays the same or if you maybe even feel a little better. I have been in poopout twice, (Paxil, then Celexa) it is hell. If you're in hell, keep going, right? Healing vibes to you.

[Lor95]

Thank you so much for replying Baxter! xxx

It's so hard, because my drops do not seem to display any reliable pattern. Maybe as Alto suggested, going 0.25mg at a time instead of 0.5 and at 2 week intervals might be better, seeing as I can't always seem to hold long before horrific withdrawals hit. The thing is, I WAS able to hold for 4-6 weeks at 17.5, 17 and 16.5......some of the latter days on 17.5 and the early days on 17 were good.

Do you think it's possible to be in tolerance and for "too long" holds to catch up with you, just the opposite of cumulative too fast tapers if you are stable??? Do you know what I mean?

Can you tell me a bit more about your experience of tolerance, if it's not too much trouble?

[stan]

hi Lor95,

 

if you had not updosed, you would be less than 16, you have losed time and prolonged your suffering, there is nothing to won to try to stabilize, the body do not want.

If you trippled the dose, maybe you will have relief temporarely, but the price to pay will be more higher with more risks.

i was in tolerence 6 years and do not know what happened, i never stabilize during my 11 months taper.

 

the only road in tolerence :

wean reasonably : each 15/20 days a little drop, agree you will have bad days and some less bad, a day you will be free med, then try to wait two three months( at this point you will not retake after)

and then, unfortunately, you will have to pass months and months

the chemical depression and anxiety will slowly lessen

not updose, wean regularly, when suffer:wait better moments,

after 15 years taken, you are maybe since a while in tolerence: there exist slow tolerence(mine) and fast;

[Altostrata]

Lor, I merged your posts in Tapering with your Intro topic. Believe me, Intro topics get plenty of attention. I look at them first.

 

If Pun is able, she'll visit here, too.

 

I do think perhaps the decreases you're making are too much for you. It doesn't matter what the percentage is. If your nervous system can only tolerate decreases of .01mg, that's what it needs.

 

I've tapered by hundreds of a milligram, and at times I would have tapered by thousandths if I could. I made .01mg drops every 4-5 days (Lamictal).

 

You can't go by your tapering history to predict how much of a taper you need, you have to go by how your system is reacting. Withdrawal from Paxil gets more difficult as you lower the dose because Paxil inhibits its own metabolism. As you decrease the dose, it leaves your body faster.

 

Have you contacted Dr. Healy? He has been working with people who have difficulty withdrawing no matter how small the decreases. It may be the Prozac switch would work for you. He may be able to refer you to a doctor in your area who knows how to do this.

[Punarbhava]

Hi Lor....

 

 

First off, I'm very sorry for your suffering. I know how frightening and disabling things can be.

 

 

I have a lot that I can share regarding my own experience, as well as witnessing many others who were in tolerance WD. I will try to construct a separate post on that topic since, the art of tapering during tolerance (depending upon the degree of tolerance) is a more complex than classic tapers.

 

Let's take things one step at a time. The priority right now is to answer the question re: is it time to make your next dose reduction?

 

Before I respond to this it would be important to clarify a few things and thus, if you're up to it, it would help if you can answer a few quick questions. You can place your responses below each of my questions. This will keep your mind, as well as mind, more focused.

 

1) Have all of your dose reductions been 3%?

 

2) What initially occurs when you make this reduction?

 

3) Do you feel an initial bit of symptom relief as soon as you make a dose reduction before WD (from this wean) kicks in?

 

4) How long does your WD last from each wean before you begin to feel symptoms ease up?

 

5) Do you begin to feel worse after this bit of ease and if so, when?

 

6) What is the half-life of your AD?

 

 

I agree with all that was presented by Baxter and Stan, but I will elaborate in another post. In the meantime, it would be helpful if you could answer the above questions.

 

Then, a team of us can assist you in way of tailorizing your taper, in an effort to reduce the degree of suffering as much as possible.

 

 

Try not to be afraid. I know it's so hard since, your F&F center is being highjacked by the tolerance issue. I know one can feel literally out of their mind and in extreme states of organic induce terror.

 

You're going to be okay and you WILL WIN this battle and get your life back. So many of us have been where you've been and we have made it to the other side. You will too!

 

 

Peace and Healing,

 

 

Punar

[Lor95]

Alto,

 

Thanks for the reassurance about people seeing me thread - you read my mind. xxx

 

I would consider tapering by smaller amounts, but I don't want to switch to liquid (both my past failed attempts were with liquid), and I don't think a scale will be accurate enough. How did you do it?

 

About switching, prozac is stimulating and my depression is a very anxious depression. It is a big risk. I would like to speak to Dr Healey but in a way I'm scared, I don't want to hear any horror stories he might have. I'm probably being a big baby but Alto, I'm scared.

[Altostrata]

Thanks for joining in, Pun.

 

You'll need the liquid for the very small dosage reductions, Lor.

 

I'm sure Dr. Healy won't frighten you with horror stories. He's a doctor, he'll try to help.

[Baxter]

 

Do you think it's possible to be in tolerance and for "too long" holds to catch up with you, just the opposite of cumulative too fast tapers if you are stable??? Do you know what I mean?

Can you tell me a bit more about your experience of tolerance, if it's not too much trouble?

 

I don't know about "too long holds" but it is an interesting idea. I held at 30mg for a year then dropped about 5% and had to go back up and hold again because I fell apart.

 

My experience with poopout: deteriorating mood (increased anxiety, depression), extreme irritability, restlessness, dizziness and balance problems, nausea, intermittant diarrhea. Then I moved on to bad sleep, insomnia, inability to sleep more than about 45 minutes at a time. then I cried incontrollably at least once a day for about a month. I went out on medical leave before getting fired for acting bizarre. During my "time off" both times, I had difficulty leaving the house and staying in touch with friends. I used benzos as prescribed to get over some of the worst symptoms of agitation/anxiety/fear.

 

Both times I went through this (once on Paxil, then on Celexa) my career took a huge hit while I quickly stopped the current drug and switched to the next one. I am so, so sorry that you are going through this. I wish with all my heart there were something I could do or say that would ease your passage to a better state.

[Lor95]

Thank you all so much for pulling together and being here for me; I am in floods of tears as I write this.

 

Pun, I wonder if you remember me from another site - Lotty. You always had me in tears there too (because you have such a beautiful soul).

 

As indeed all of you who have taken the time out of your day to comment on my thread.

 

I will try to answer as best I can your questions, Pun. This may take a bit of time. And it's a problem because it has been so inconsistent. Everyone seems to have a recognisable pattern; I don't. At least it doesn't seem so. Maybe when I write it all down in an orderly fashion others may see things I don't.

 

Much love.

Lor/Lotty

xxxx

[Punarbhava]

Thank you all so much for pulling together and being here for me; I am in floods of tears as I write this.

 

Pun, I wonder if you remember me from another site - Lotty. You always had me in tears there too (because you have such a beautiful soul).

 

Oh, yes, I do remember you. I didn't know you were here. TBH, I don't read many intros since, it's too overwhelming to keep up and I still deal with computer senstivities so it makes it hard for me to read very lengthy posts.

 

I'm humbled by your lovely compliment but I sincerely thank you.

 

 

I will try to answer as best I can your questions, Pun. This may take a bit of time.

 

It's okay, take your time. I'm sorry to put you through this questioning but it's very important in way of assisting you. I had to keep a journal about such details as well as pay very close attention to how my symptoms played out, in what degree and for how long.

 

This can be a very, very confusing road to travel and thus, it requires an astutenes (sp?) that, in of itself, can feel mentally draining. However, the more attention that is paid to details, the better equipped you will be to determine when to make dose reductions.

 

 

And it's a problem because it has been so inconsistent.

 

Yes, I can understand. Inconsistency can occur and this is what makes things very confusing, not to mention frightening. Unfortunately, I've been there, so I understand how hard it is to figure things out.

 

Everyone seems to have a recognisable pattern; I don't.

 

Not every dose reduction will play out the same. Unfortunately, some weans will be more difficult than others. Some may be a bit easier, despite making the same dose reductions.

 

HOLDING Time is also critical. IF you hold too long, it can upset the tapering pattern (sequence of events). I know this sounds so complicated and that's becausse it is complicated.

 

However, it won't be as confusing for you once, we help you get this figured out.

 

At least it doesn't seem so. Maybe when I write it all down in an orderly fashion others may see things I don't.

 

Yes, writing things in an orderly fashion helps to keep a WD induced terror stricken mind, a bit focused.

 

If I may make a suggestion Lor. I believe it would be very helpful for you to keep a separate calendar as well as a journal. I needed to do this. My mind was so messed up, extreme states of OCD, terror and memory problems that I couldn't remember things and/or I'd become confused.

 

the calendar and journal allowed to to track, and keep track of what was happending and when and in what degrees and this helped me to determine when to make dose reductions.

 

It's also important to keep precise record of how many days you have held at each dose.

 

Stan has brought forward so many points that I completely agree with. He demonstrates a clear understanding of how tolerance can play out in many of us and so, if you don't mind, I will likely respond to his post, section by section.

 

BTW, if you're like I was, I couldn't answer questions or even think straight early in the day. My mind would settle a bit in the late evening hours (thank God). So, it may be best for you to respond to my questions later in the day when your mind is not high-jacked by high levels of cortisol.

 

We'll help you get this figured out. just hang on and try not to worry.

 

Pun

 

[Punarbhava]

I'm experiencing apprehensiveness in regard to navigating through this thread. Before I can share anymore of my experiences and thoughts I feel that I need to cover a few points.

 

 

1) The subject of tolerance WD is so complicated and there are so many different degrees of tolerance and thus, various scenarios that can occur within this WD category. It makes it difficult for me to share my thoughts without coming across as challenging what others may be posting in this thread. It's causing me a large degree of stress and apprehension.

 

 

2) BTW, I don't disagree with the various advice being presented since, this MAY work for Lor. Each approach IS and can be effective, but IMhumbleO, may not applicable in all tolerance WD circumstances. Thus, what I present may appear to be challenging. That's not my intention although it may come across that way (especially in written form since, there is no opportunity to clarify or interject along the way and thus, offense can be taken).

 

3) I've come to understand, through painful personal experience, as well as witnessing so many others on various forums, that some people do better with tiny dose reductions however, the opposite can occur with some people. To clarify: too small of a dose reduction can make a person worse and not better. Finding the appropriate percentage can be tricky and for some people it must be very precise, no wiggle room one way or the other. So, I'm in conflict as to how I should proceed in regard to posting my thoughts.

 

This will be very confusing and frustrating for Lor as well. I know because I experienced frustration trying to figure out what to do when I receive conflicting information.

 

As well, I understand how scary information and reports of extreme WD situations can shoot's one's CNS into more extreme states of fear and terror. Lor, my story isn't pretty and the last thing I wish to do is add any further fear into your equation. Thus, I think it's best if I leave out as many graphic details as possible and stick to presenting strategic tapering methods and/or refining your present method.

 

I'd like to respond to individual posts within this thread to keep my mind focused, as well as present thoughts however, responding in such a fashion, can appear as if I'm challenging the origingal poster since, some of my thoughts could be opposite of what is being presented. This causes me distress since, my aim is not to challenge anyone but rather, to seek out the best method that will aid Lor's situation, while, at the same time, respecting that everyone has presented very valid points and important information.

 

As well, my aim is to SHARE so we can, as a group, learn from each other. This will better serve SA community in the present as well as the future.

 

I've come to understand that the level of tolerance and the type of tolerance is unique to the individual. Hence, the process of navigating through such a journey can be fairly straight forward for some individuals while for others, it will be more complex.

 

 

Okay, I'm starting to go in circles. Time to take a break from the computer. (lol)

 

 

Pun

[Lor95]

To dear Pun - I understand and appreciate completely what you're saying and why.

I have read practically all your posts elsewhere and I have put together what I believe is a fair idea of what situation you were in while tapering doxepin, and that it was unique to YOU and may not apply to others who have had success with other tapering percentages and strategies. However, I still feel it will be valuable to me (if you care to share some of it - I am also aware that some things are traumatic for you to talk about at this point in your recovery)....as indeed will EVERYONE's opinion.

 

And rest assured, the repercussions of any decision I make according to someone's suggestion/experience will NEVER be held against them. I just want as much information as people are willing to give to that might shed some light on my situation and how to proceed.

[Lor95]

 

My experience with poopout: deteriorating mood (increased anxiety, depression), extreme irritability, restlessness, dizziness and balance problems, nausea, intermittant diarrhea. Then I moved on to bad sleep, insomnia, inability to sleep more than about 45 minutes at a time. then I cried incontrollably at least once a day for about a month. I went out on medical leave before getting fired for acting bizarre. During my "time off" both times, I had difficulty leaving the house and staying in touch with friends. I used benzos as prescribed to get over some of the worst symptoms of agitation/anxiety/fear.

 

Both times I went through this (once on Paxil, then on Celexa) my career took a huge hit while I quickly stopped the current drug and switched to the next one. I am so, so sorry that you are going through this. I wish with all my heart there were something I could do or say that would ease your passage to a better state.

 

Thank you so much for this Baxter. So as I understand it, you reached tolerance on 2 drugs whilst still on your full dose, and switched completely to another, without tapering the the one you had developed tolerance to?

 

I know you are tapering the Cymbalta slowly....what percentage/mg drops do you take? Do you stabilise in between?

 

I had hoped to do the same thing as yourself, going ever so slow and stabilising between doses...unfortunately my brain has other ideas. However, I was not stable when I started this wean from paroxetine.

 

Thank you again. xx

[ajay]

Lor, I can't help you on the tapering topic, but I wanted to give you a virtual hug and maybe a foot massage (trip to the virtual spa?)

 

It feels terrible when your brain has been hijacked. Please know that we're all pulling for you.

I wish you calm. and peace of mind.

[Punarbhava]

Hi Stan........

 

I hope you don't mind me using your post as a guide to respond to Lor. You've made a few points that I feel are very important and I wish to expand upon.

 

hi Lor95,

 

if you had not updosed, you would be less than 16, you have losed time and prolonged your suffering, there is nothing to won to try to stabilize, the body do not want.

 

I agree with what Stan is saying here. Many times (although not always) people try to up-dose in an attempt to stabilize however, tolerance keeps following them all the way up, no matter how much they increase the dose.

 

Now, this is what occurs when someone is in a severe tolerance WD state, where the drug has completely stopped working and has turned against them.

 

In milder or moderate states of tolerance WD sometimes people can updose and achieve a relative or partial stabilization and then taper from that point forward.

 

I also believe that a more severe form of tolerance can develop IF one has previously engaged in a rapid taper or C/T and then reinstated the drug.

 

 

The FIRST TIME I tapered from Doxepin (rapid taper) I was sick, but despite large dose reductions, I was able to stablize after each drop. I even up-dosed several times and stabilized each time, however, I was NOT in a tolerance state. lt was a classic WD scenerio where one makes a dose reduction, experiences a couple weeks of WD symptoms and then stabilizes.

 

However, I jumped off my AD at 10 mgs. (twice), after engaging in a rapid taper and then reinstated. The first time I reinstated I completely stabilized. The second time (believing that the same would occur) I did NOT stabliize. I kept up-dosing in large increments from 0 to 5 then back down to 4 (since I felt drugged out) but then it completely pooped out on me within days. I became violently ill so I up-dosed to 10 mgs, obtain a a degree of relief for about 5 days then back into C/T state of WD.

 

I then up-dose to 60 mgs, believing that this large increase would surely stabilize me. Again, I obtained partial relief for less than a week but then went back into C/T state. I then kept up-dosing to 80 then 90, 100 and 110 holding for about a week each time (obtaining partial relief but then going back into C/T states).

 

I was at a point of no return. With all this said, I have seen many people updose and obtain a decent level of functionality. In regard to my case, the multiple rapid tapers and reinstatements etc. likely created massive confusion within my brain and created a chemical storm that just couldn't be doused with any amount of the drug. The drug completely turned on me, tolerance following me all the way up, with each increase in dose. I became sicker and sicker to the point where I couldn't up-dose any longer.

 

I was becoming extremely toxic on the drug. I believe a kindling effect was happening and I developed paraxodical effects as well. It's one confusing nightmare to try to figure out and get out of.

 

If you trippled the dose, maybe you will have relief temporarely, but the price to pay will be more higher with more risks.

 

Yes, Stan, this is what happened to me, as I have written above.

 

 

i was in tolerence 6 years and do not know what happened, i never stabilize during my 11 months taper.

 

So sorry this occurred Stan.

 

I believe (and I'm not saying I'm right here) but there is a different biological dynamic that occurs upon reinstatement that does not occur when a drug stops working while on full dose.

 

In other words, developing tolerance while still on the drug is a bit different than developing tolerance upon reinstatement after a rapid or C/T. More can go wrong upon reinstatement of the drug.

 

Although even that's not always the case. Since, I've seen people reinstate and partially stabilize and even fully stabilize. I myself full stabilized the first time I reinstated.

 

So many different scenarios that can occur, depending upon several factors, not to mention the person's biological make-up (genetics)etc.

 

the only road in tolerence :

wean reasonably : each 15/20 days a little drop,

 

I agree Stan however, reasonable drops can vary. Some people can make tiny drops, yet other people cannot. Tiny drops in dose will not hold back the tolerance factor for some people and they will become sicker if they don't drop enough. In my situation (although I've seen many others) I could not make drops any lower than 10 or 11 percent.

 

If I dropped by 8 percent or less it would not hold back the tolerance factor. I remained in C/T state of WD. However, if I reduced by 10 percent I reduced the violent factor however, was still very sick and bedridden. The fact that my brain could not accept lower percentages, meant that I suffered more with each drop. However, as I mentioned, if I dropped less than 10 percent I was in violent 911 mode. I was between a rock and hard place.

 

 

In regard to "holding time". The holding phase differs for each person and the holding time can change during different phases of WD.

 

Sometimes, the lower you get in dose the drug will poop out quicker and you are forced to make dose reductions closer together. For me, when I got down to the lower doses I had to make drops every 11 days. If I held even one day longer, the sickness erupted into violent proportions. Earlier in my taper, I was able to hold for 31 days.

 

Then par way through my taper, that changed. I had to make dose reductions every 14 days and then as I got to lower doses it became 11 days between reductions.

 

Again, I've seen this will many other people. So, I'm not a unique case in this regard. I've been around some of the worse cases, myself being only one.

 

 

agree you will have bad days and some less bad,

 

Not every drop in dose (despite utilzing the same percentage rate) will play out the same. Some drops will be more difficult and some a bit easier.

 

 

a day you will be free med, then try to wait two three months( at this point you will not retake after)

 

Yes, again to the above. Once you get off the drug this time Lor, do NOT reinstate ever again. You have to ride out. There's a good chance that you will feel less sick OFF the drug than what you now feel on the drug. I've seen this so many times.

 

I felt 50 percent better as soon as I got off the drug. While I still endured post taper WD and I was sick, I was not completely bedridden. But keep in mind, my taper was rapid and I had to make 10 percent drops which means my post taper would be more difficult than someone who tapered slower etc.

 

 

and then, unfortunately, you will have to pass months and months

the chemical depression and anxiety will slowly lessen

 

True, it takes time to recover post taper. Some people recover more quickly than others.

 

not updose, wean regularly, when suffer:wait better moments,

after 15 years taken, you are maybe since a while in tolerence: there exist slow tolerence(mine) and fast;

 

I developed rapid tolerance upon reinstatement. I think Stan is talking about tolerance developing while still on the full dose of a drug (never attempting to change the dose).

 

Tolerance to the dose can develop slowly over a long period of time. A person can develop a few symptoms never realizing that the drug is starting to lose it's effectiveness. Eventually, more tolerance can develop and more symptoms appear. This demonstrates a gradual development of tolerance, over the course of time.

 

Also, Stan mentions that tolerance can develop quickly. This is a true as well. One can be on their full dose of medication and then, almost overnight, they develop tolerance to the drug.

 

Then there is tolerance WD that occurs upon reinstatement.

 

When one is tapering, when in tolerance WD, tolerance can creep up quickly after a dose reduction and thus, one must make their next drop to avoid getting sicker. One must keep the taper going since, holding too long can make some people much worse. Other people can hold for longer periods of time and do okish.

 

I developed rapid tolerance and complete tolerance to the drug. Some people develop partial tolerance where they can still function despite experiencing symptoms. BTW, I'm not saying that they don't suffer. They do.

 

The degree of mental and physical incapacitation will vary, depending upon the degree of tolerance that one develops.

 

I better post this since, it's getting late.

 

 

Punar

 

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