Punarbhava Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Thank you so much Punar - you don't know how much your support means to me. xxxx You're most welcome Lor. I'm trying to share and pass along as much as I can since, believe me, I know you are not exaggerating the degree of suffering you're in. Lor, just to let you know, I'm not always able to discuss this topic and I cannot relay too many details of my experience since, I'm suffering from PTSD. I don't have enough distance from my experience, not to mention, my CNS is not fully recovered and thus, I can get shot into bad states and thus, need to retreat to get my system calmed down. Recounting my experience and those who are in similar situations, can get my F&F system badly activated. Consequently, there are many days when I cannot post on this subject. Just thought I'd better relay this to you so you don't personalize my inability to respond at times. Day 3 and Day 4 have been similar to the first 2, although I will be more specific in my next post. This is Day 5 and I think it may even be worse. This is what would happen to me when tried dose reductions of 5 percent or 8 percent etc. It took me awhile and lot of experimentation to find the right percentage. Lor, I'm really hesitate to make recommendations since, it does get my F&F going and I fear advising the wrong thing. The responsibility factor feels extremely high for me. I will only relay what I had to do but I'm not saying it's the right thing for you to do right now. When a 5 percent dose failed to "take" I was forced to make anohter reduction. However, it was not pretty. IF, at all possible Lor, I would try to hold at your current dose for at least 10 to 11 days, although believe me I know this may not be possible for you. I'd be interested to hear what your friend would recommend. I really think I am deteriorating at this dose. I can understand what you're saying. The question is now, how long to hold and whether to make my next one a little bigger. I would very much like to cut to 14.5 next, that would be a 6.5% cut (bigger than I've made so far) but it may give me a moral boost knowing that it's past my "achilles heel" - 15mg. Just a thought. I truly wish I knew, with certainty what percentage would work best for you. Lor, I do know of many people who were able to make 5 percent drops. While I was so happy for these people, I would cry/grieve that I wasn't able to utilize this percentage. Believe me, I tried several times and it just did not work. Right now you're making 3 percent drops right? Maybe try 5 percent rather than 6.5? BTW, I really need to stress this point. Making larger drops does NOT mean that one will be able to hold for longer than 2 weeks, especially when one gets down to these doses. I was sadly mistaken ........ believing that a larger cut would provide me longer holding phases however, this was not the case. Same was true for others. So, it's best to find the lowest percentage as possible but not so low as to not hold back the tolerance factor playing out. See, as far as I can tell (from experience and that of others) the brain will updose at the same rate regardless of the percentage that one has dropped. The number of receptors involved has little to do with the up-regulation rate itself. However, the percentage rate does affect the degree of suffering as well as the "holding time" between drops. This is why it's best to try to find the lowest percentage as possible and to hold as long as possible. I hope I've articulated things clearly enough. BTW, if anyone disagrees then please do share since, I'm open to be proven wrong (lol). Punar To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Nadia Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 You might have to change to a dose that is more stable. Remember the dripping tap example? If you have a water tap on as hard as it goes, the water sprays out evenly in tiny droplets that look white. The spray it produces is uniform and predictable in its shape. If you turn the tap down a bit though, you'll see the stream go clear and it will appear to twist and wriggle around in a far less predictable shape. If you turn it down even more, it will change again into a thin and very straight clear stream, which is predictable again. Turn it down even further and the thin stream will start to break into droplets and depending on how much you've turned it down, the droplets will come out at either regular or in wildly irregular intervals, switching again between predictable and unpredictable effects all the way down. By analogy, I expect the trouble with reducing your medication in such small amounts is that you are going to hit all of the doses that produce unpredictable effects on the way down. You need to be aware of that and tune your dose to one that is stable at each stage, which might mean reducing by larger steps on some occasions and smaller steps on other occasions. Interesting, huh? Yes... very interesting... I don't know if this is related or not, but I've been thinking a lot about how anything I try to do to improve my situation, except for walking and meditating, I think, seems to stop working or backfire after a while: acupuncture, massage, magnesium sulfate baths, maybe other stuff as well. I had thought that if I did things very regularly and established a rhythm that I would calm my nervous system down. But it seems to WANT to be ramped up... like it thinks that's it's job somehow, or perhaps it's trying to compensate for something else. This I think might also relate to what Alto has said about stuff going paradoxical, and any strong or overt attempt to try to calm down can have an opposite effect. I had started wondering if there was an approach one could take of some pattern of irregular repetition that could help. Though most times people will tell you to have a disciplined pattern and stick with it... for example, go to sleep and wake up at the same time always. But so many times I've found a new, surprising thing to help. I wonder if there is a connection here... maybe this is getting too esoteric, but it DOES seem like nature works that way, with points of stability and instability (even the course of getting better, or think of how you learn things in spurts, or how evolution is not linear). I don't know that there is any way to magically find the stable points, though. I wonder if for dose tapering you could do it with some kind of fractal math or something! Or by noting which dose reductions went relatively OK and which didn't and getting a math genius to find the right algorithm. Maybe just good old trial and error. Whatever it is, I hope you hit a "stable" does soon and get some respite. In any case, don't feel like you are alone. I'm sure there is a huge range of suffering going on here, but yeah, we all feel like it is the worst thing ever. I know compared to other people on here I'm probably pretty lucky (I don't have physically debilitating symptoms to the point of not being able to function at all, and I've managed to hold onto work by a thin thread, I don't have constant horrible pain, etc.)... STILL, I can really relate to the feeling of just not being able to survive much more of this... Anxiety and exhaustion account for a lot of it. So much of my existence feels like a living nightmare. It's kind of the nature of the whole experience, and it doesn't much have to do with any kind of "real" measure. It's not self-indulgent. That's what this site is for, I think... to learn and share but also to vent! '94-'08 On/off ADs. Mostly Zoloft & Wellbutrin, but also Prozac, Celexa, Effexor, etc.6/08 quit Z & W after tapering, awful anxiety 3 mos. later, reinstated.11/10 CTed. Severe anxiety 3 mos. later & @ 8 mos. much worse (set off by metronidazole). Anxiety, depression, anhedonia, DP, DR, dizziness, severe insomnia, high serum AM cortisol, flu-like feelings, muscle discomfort.9/11-9/12 Waves and windows of recovery.10/12 Awful relapse, DP/DR. Hydrocortisone?11/12 Improved fairly quickly even though relapse was one of worst waves ever. 1/13 Best I've ever felt. 3/13 A bit of a relapse... then faster and shorter waves and windows. 4/14 Have to watch out for triggers, but feel completely normal about 80% of the time. Link to comment
Punarbhava Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 BTW Lor.......... I don't wish for you to censor or numb down your posts due to my PTSD status. You need to do what is best for you during this time in order to receive support and assistance. So please, do NOT concern yourself with this. It's my responsibility to be mindful of my exposure to things and consequently, manage my PTSD. It's not your problem nor anyone elses and I do not wish for you to feel any degree of responsibility in regard to how I may react to anything that is posted. I just wanted to mention this since, I don't wish for you to feel restricted in any way. One other point, I do have to dampen down my emotions, as much as possible, in order to relay certain information as well as distance myself from my emotions and my experiences. So, I may appear more "subject" oriented than emotionally oriented. I truly feel for what your going through more than you know. It's extremely painful to witness and I feel very deeply for you. I'm glad though, to hear you a partner who can provide, some degree of support and assistance. Please know that you will get through this. Someday you will be free .........I promise you! Pun To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Yes... very interesting... I don't know if this is related or not, but I've been thinking a lot about how anything I try to do to improve my situation, except for walking and meditating, I think, seems to stop working or backfire after a while: acupuncture, massage, magnesium sulfate baths, maybe other stuff as well. I had thought that if I did things very regularly and established a rhythm that I would calm my nervous system down. But it seems to WANT to be ramped up... like it thinks that's it's job somehow, or perhaps it's trying to compensate for something else. This I think might also relate to what Alto has said about stuff going paradoxical, and any strong or overt attempt to try to calm down can have an opposite effect. I had started wondering if there was an approach one could take of some pattern of irregular repetition that could help. Though most times people will tell you to have a disciplined pattern and stick with it... for example, go to sleep and wake up at the same time always. But so many times I've found a new, surprising thing to help. I wonder if there is a connection here... maybe this is getting too esoteric, but it DOES seem like nature works that way, with points of stability and instability (even the course of getting better, or think of how you learn things in spurts, or how evolution is not linear). I don't know that there is any way to magically find the stable points, though. I wonder if for dose tapering you could do it with some kind of fractal math or something! Or by noting which dose reductions went relatively OK and which didn't and getting a math genius to find the right algorithm. Maybe just good old trial and error. Whatever it is, I hope you hit a "stable" does soon and get some respite. Oh Nadia!!! So interesting you say that.....there is another thing my friend said that I left out, along those lines. I will post it tomorrow. Pun and Nadia, my friend has not actually been through withdrawal, nor does he know anyone else (besides me) that has. He is just really clever!!! Lots of love to you both. xxx Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 BTW Lor.......... I don't wish for you to censor or numb down your posts due to my PTSD status. You need to do what is best for you during this time in order to receive support and assistance. So please, do NOT concern yourself with this. It's my responsibility to be mindful of my exposure to things and consequently, manage my PTSD. It's not your problem nor anyone elses and I do not wish for you to feel any degree of responsibility in regard to how I may react to anything that is posted. I just wanted to mention this since, I don't wish for you to feel restricted in any way. One other point, I do have to dampen down my emotions, as much as possible, in order to relay certain information as well as distance myself from my emotions and my experiences. So, I may appear more "subject" oriented than emotionally oriented. I truly feel for what your going through more than you know. It's extremely painful to witness and I feel very deeply for you. I'm glad though, to hear you a partner who can provide, some degree of support and assistance. Please know that you will get through this. Someday you will be free .........I promise you! Pun To dear dear Pun, After my last experience at 15mg, I could not speak to anybody about it, I couldn't express some of the horrors and I couldn't even cry about it. In fact, I don't even think I would have ever had the courage to try tapering again had I not suspected that I didn't have much choice. The day of my first tiny cut, I felt as if I was throwing myself off a cliff. Literally risking my life. Because I had had a taste of it already. There's a beautiful saying; it goes something like: "When you come to the edge of all the light you know....and you are about to step off into the darkness There will be something solid to stand on.... Or you will learn to fly". I tried to keep that close to my heart. I have always been of the opinion that if I ever get through this, there will be a lot of PTSD issues to work through slowly without a doubt. Pun, you are yourself still healing...I deeply value and appreciate your support in whichever form it comes. Big healing hug, Lor Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Punarbhava Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Lor..... I just posted this in the Symptoms forum. Found out about this place a couple of days ago BTW. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1108-ad-benzo-help-line-and-email-buddy-support/ Hope this can be of help to you. God, I wish there had been something similar in my country when I was in such desperate need. Punar To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Thank you Pun for that link. xxx I hope you haven't missed my message to you (post #98). Btw, I AM deteriorating at this dose - 15.5mg. I am surprised I am even able to hold down food, when I am able to force it down. My mind is doing stanger and stranger things...it goes into states I can't even describe. I am finding it harder and harder to do the simplest things. I would like to cut to see if I can hit a stabler dose but at 6 days it is way too soon. Pun, I'm sure that you can understand the terror of being stuck, knowing that updosing is no longer an option (and never was). Lotty Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Nadia Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 "When you come to the edge of all the light you know....and you are about to step off into the darkness There will be something solid to stand on.... Or you will learn to fly". Nice. '94-'08 On/off ADs. Mostly Zoloft & Wellbutrin, but also Prozac, Celexa, Effexor, etc.6/08 quit Z & W after tapering, awful anxiety 3 mos. later, reinstated.11/10 CTed. Severe anxiety 3 mos. later & @ 8 mos. much worse (set off by metronidazole). Anxiety, depression, anhedonia, DP, DR, dizziness, severe insomnia, high serum AM cortisol, flu-like feelings, muscle discomfort.9/11-9/12 Waves and windows of recovery.10/12 Awful relapse, DP/DR. Hydrocortisone?11/12 Improved fairly quickly even though relapse was one of worst waves ever. 1/13 Best I've ever felt. 3/13 A bit of a relapse... then faster and shorter waves and windows. 4/14 Have to watch out for triggers, but feel completely normal about 80% of the time. Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Not interesting....for my records. Day 3 & 4 Similar to days 1 & 2, however symptoms stronger. Day 5 Again, similar but a little stronger still, with the addition of noticeable cognitive deterioration - difficulty typing (letters get all mixed up), can't find the words, frequent spelling mistakes, difficulty expressing myself verbally and in word form, feel confused and disorientated. It actually FEELS as if there's so much brain activity going on that there is no space for every day function. I see somebody on television I KNOW I recognise but I can't place them, can't remember their name. I say all this lightly but believe me, it's severe. I am usually very articulate and precise with my spelling, but even writing this I have had to go back and correct about a fifth of the text, which has been misspelt. I keep spelling "without" as "withought"!!!! I'm not being cute btw, I truly feel disabled. Xanax intake as normal, 0.5mg about 8am and 0.5mg about 8pm. Day 6 Even worse. After waking and literally DRAGGING myself up to get dressed and go to work (I work in administration, nothing too taxing, for a "normal" person), I felt as if I didn't know where I was, my "mind" was far, far away. I didn't feel like I could even make a cup of tea, it was beyond my capability. I did it to prove myself wrong, but I knew I could not work in this state as a terror-type feeling was starting to creep in and I was starting to feel very confused. Xanax 0.5 as usual at 8am, which seems to help on some level but I can't put my finger on how exactly. I think it helps me think a bit straighter but that's about it. This level of withdrawal is far too strong for it to make much difference. At midday I started to feel some akathesia which felt very disturbing. I just "tried" to keep calm, and LITERALLY take one step in front of the other which is the only thing I can do...I feel completely helpless. I seriously don't know how I manage to work in this condition, I really don't, and I tasks that I used to achieve without even thinking need to be done carefully and with a lot of effort and checked over and over again, because I lose my train of thought over and over again. Who knows how many mistakes I haven't picked up. I don't know how much longer I will be able to work if there is no improvement. I certainly would not be working without xanax. This is all done with feelings of nausea, moderate level fear and complete lack of motivation, I feel no distraction by any of it. It's just something to do besides rotting at home. This was then overtaken by severe cognitive deterioration. I was having real trouble writing simple emails, and I kept completely quiet among my colleagues for fear of not making sense. The few things I said were not coming out right and just sounded loony, out of context. It's very hard to describe and very disconcerting. Xanax 0.5 at 7.30 this evening and still not doing well. I have felt all this before, at 15mg last time. Definitely steady deterioration at this dose. Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Punarbhava Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Thank you Pun for that link. xxx I hope you haven't missed my message to you (post #98). Hi Lor....... please forgive me but I have not read post 98 yet. Things have been really difficult here and thus, I've been unable to submit the many thoughts I wished to convey. I've only partially completed. The thing is: this is very complicated, especially with xanax in the mix. As well, your situation is quite a bit different than mine re: it appears that you were able to stabilize to a reasonable level at various stages along the way. Btw, I AM deteriorating at this dose - 15.5mg. This deterioration could be merely be WD setting in from your last dose reduction (which is to be expected) and may not be the tolerance factor playing out. Many people who are not in tolerance WD can experience great difficulty when reaching these lower doses and thus, must make tinier dose reductions in order to avoid the "crash" (as termed by many who experience it). I am surprised I am even able to hold down food, when I am able to force it down. My mind is doing stanger and stranger things...it goes into states I can't even describe. I am finding it harder and harder to do the simplest things. I very much understand what you are experiencing. color] I would like to cut to see if I can hit a stabler dose but at 6 days it is way too soon. I don't know if it would be wise to make another dose reduction at this time. It's unclear as to what is going on since, there are too many possibilities that can be occuring. It's best to sit at this dose for now since, 6 days and getting worse can be a good sign and not a bad one. You may be experiencing the full effects of the drop at this time and things could improve within a week or so. Pun, I'm sure that you can understand the terror of being stuck, knowing that updosing is no longer an option (and never was). Yes, I do understand and there is no other way other way to describe it other than psychological torture. I can't elaborate anymore since, even typing this sentence throw my CNS into PTS mode. Lor, I'm trying to get my thoughts together to present to you but I've been too sick these past days to even think straight and my computer sensitivies have been too significant which further limits my ability but please know I have every intention of following through. BTW, Have you contacted David Healey? Lor, TBH, I'm at a loss as to what to advise since, I'm uncertain as to what is causing what and when. If xanax wasn't in the mix, it would be more straight forward however. Even if xanax was out of the equation, things aren't always as they may appear. I will elaborate on this thought in my next post. In the meantime, I think it's far too soon to consider making a dose reduction. Remember you just reduced by 3% (those receptors are up-regulating ATM). Now if you make another cut in dose eg. 5%, you will then be dealing with a total of 8% (5 up-regulating while 3 in mid-up-regulation). This may be too much for your system to handle. God, you don't know how much I wish I had a defintive answer for you. Unfortunately, I really don't know and neither does anyone else. One must experiment in an effort to try to figure out will work as well as what will not work. It's wiser to reduce a little this time around and then, if need be, cut more the next time rather than vice versa. When I was told this I remember feeling so devastated since, I had NO IDEA what percentage to cut nor how long to hold. As you know, it is beyond psychologically terrifying to be caught in such a dilemma. My C/T WDs were easier to deal with psychologically since there were no decisions to made, no more wrong moves to anticipate and/or fear. What was done was done and I only had to focus on enduring (which was torturous enough). With that said, I am, in no way, advocating C/T. It's brutal, not to mention, dangerous. I better post this ASAP. I need to get off-line and hope to write more in a few days. I know how incredible horrid this is for you. Please hang in there and I'm glad to know that you are not alone during this time. Let's hope this wean plays out to your benefit. Even in classic WD, after a drop in dose, symptoms will peak and then they will begin to lessen and eventually stablizie. Oh, forgive my inability to word things well. My mind is not in good shape but I wanted to quickly send this off to you this evening. Sincere Healing Energy being sent your way! Punar To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted August 20, 2011 Administrator Share Posted August 20, 2011 At Pun's request: The correct link for the UK support line is http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/615-uk-australia-new-zealand-support-services/page__view__findpost__p__9765 This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 Thank you Pun for that link. xxx I hope you haven't missed my message to you (post #98). Hi Lor....... please forgive me but I have not read post 98 yet. Things have been really difficult here and thus, I've been unable to submit the many thoughts I wished to convey. I've only partially completed. The thing is: this is very complicated, especially with xanax in the mix. As well, your situation is quite a bit different than mine re: it appears that you were able to stabilize to a reasonable level at various stages along the way. Btw, I AM deteriorating at this dose - 15.5mg. This deterioration could be merely be WD setting in from your last dose reduction (which is to be expected) and may not be the tolerance factor playing out. Many people who are not in tolerance WD can experience great difficulty when reaching these lower doses and thus, must make tinier dose reductions in order to avoid the "crash" (as termed by many who experience it). I am surprised I am even able to hold down food, when I am able to force it down. My mind is doing stanger and stranger things...it goes into states I can't even describe. I am finding it harder and harder to do the simplest things. I very much understand what you are experiencing. color] I would like to cut to see if I can hit a stabler dose but at 6 days it is way too soon. I don't know if it would be wise to make another dose reduction at this time. It's unclear as to what is going on since, there are too many possibilities that can be occuring. It's best to sit at this dose for now since, 6 days and getting worse can be a good sign and not a bad one. You may be experiencing the full effects of the drop at this time and things could improve within a week or so. Pun, I'm sure that you can understand the terror of being stuck, knowing that updosing is no longer an option (and never was). Yes, I do understand and there is no other way other way to describe it other than psychological torture. I can't elaborate anymore since, even typing this sentence throw my CNS into PTS mode. Lor, I'm trying to get my thoughts together to present to you but I've been too sick these past days to even think straight and my computer sensitivies have been too significant which further limits my ability but please know I have every intention of following through. BTW, Have you contacted David Healey? Lor, TBH, I'm at a loss as to what to advise since, I'm uncertain as to what is causing what and when. If xanax wasn't in the mix, it would be more straight forward however. Even if xanax was out of the equation, things aren't always as they may appear. I will elaborate on this thought in my next post. In the meantime, I think it's far too soon to consider making a dose reduction. Remember you just reduced by 3% (those receptors are up-regulating ATM). Now if you make another cut in dose eg. 5%, you will then be dealing with a total of 8% (5 up-regulating while 3 in mid-up-regulation). This may be too much for your system to handle. God, you don't know how much I wish I had a defintive answer for you. Unfortunately, I really don't know and neither does anyone else. One must experiment in an effort to try to figure out will work as well as what will not work. It's wiser to reduce a little this time around and then, if need be, cut more the next time rather than vice versa. When I was told this I remember feeling so devastated since, I had NO IDEA what percentage to cut nor how long to hold. As you know, it is beyond psychologically terrifying to be caught in such a dilemma. My C/T WDs were easier to deal with psychologically since there were no decisions to made, no more wrong moves to anticipate and/or fear. What was done was done and I only had to focus on enduring (which was torturous enough). With that said, I am, in no way, advocating C/T. It's brutal, not to mention, dangerous. I better post this ASAP. I need to get off-line and hope to write more in a few days. I know how incredible horrid this is for you. Please hang in there and I'm glad to know that you are not alone during this time. Let's hope this wean plays out to your benefit. Even in classic WD, after a drop in dose, symptoms will peak and then they will begin to lessen and eventually stablizie. Oh, forgive my inability to word things well. My mind is not in good shape but I wanted to quickly send this off to you this evening. Sincere Healing Energy being sent your way! Punar Pun, please don't worry!!!! I am cautious by nature and would never cut this soon. I am certainly not expecting that my experience is going to match yours exactly - every single story is unique - so I am not going to go do something stupid based on something you may have said (*big reassuring hug*). I believe I am in some form of "poop-out" in that I do not stabilise at any dose in a predictable fashion, however what exactly my situation is seems unclear. The people that seem to get the sort of symptoms I am getting are all at a very low dose. I am at 15.5mg from 20mg and that is still very high (I am not taking into consideration the 30mg I was on originally as I didn't have many problems getting from 30 to 20mg). However, I did speak to someone recently who told me that his most difficult time was from 17mg to 14mg, contrary to the experience of most. I guess the reason I so appreciate your support, Pun, is because I know that the symptoms were very severe for you, and just describing something I experience and someone saying "yes, I experienced this too" is soooo important to me. By the way, I HAVE contacted Dr Healy and he has yet to get back to me. Pun, I sincerely hope you have a beautiful window soon (and me too). Healing energy gratefully received and a big virtual hug being sent in return. Lor xxx Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Punarbhava Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Hi Lor....... Please forgive me if I'm repeating points that were made in previous posts or even within this post. I've tried to organize and edit however, it becomes too overwhelming for me. I suppose I'm trying to summarize all points, along with adding a few new. I reviewed your whole story and all of your posts. I see from your signature that you also C/T Paxil (three times), along with reinstatements, up-dosing, decreasing, then up-dosing again, decreasing again and so on. Xanax added into the mix here and there for periods of time and in varying doses and then stopping the xanax at some stages. All of the above provoke repeated fluctuations in the brain's biochemistry........ to varying degrees (large and rapid dose reductions and/or C/T are particularly taxing to the brain and CNS, although even rapid small dose reductions can be too much for the brain due to the cumulative effect). Long story short: all of these changes can produce bio-chemical chaos/confusion etc. After so many repeated changes the brain sometimes may not settle down and/or it may take a very long time for it to do so since, it's ability to adapt has now become seriously compromised. A very crude and unscientific analogy: If you stretch an new elastic band, to its full potential, and then release the tension, it will spring back to it's original size. You can do this over and over again and each time it will bounce back, retaining it's strength and shape etc. However, at some point, after repeated usage, the elastic begins to lose this ability (due to repeated stressors) to spring back to it's original condition. In other words, it's lost its resilience and structural integrity and consequently, is now in a weakened/compromised state (no longer able to perform as effectively). Now to continue my thought in the above second paragraph..........An additional problem, in your situation, is that all previous drops (however small) can start catching up (banking up) with each other and thus, can produce, a cumulative delayed effect. One may believe that their recent destabilized state is the result of their last drop but in reality it may be more of a case of the "cumulative or domino effect" It appears that you have been able to reasonably or partially stabilize (at times), at various points along the way however, destabilization then occurs once again due to changes in dose and/or switching to liquid (which could also create an unintentional dose discrepancy if not accurately calculated and measured), not to mention switching from brand name to generics where there can be up to 20 percent difference in active ingredients) and then when you try to correct the problem whether by up-dosing or adding xanax, the brain must once again adjust to a new chemical environment/conditions. The brain can only tolerate so many curve balls being thrown at it and, at some point, it may no longer be able to sort things out in a short period of time. It may take some time for the brain to adjust to ALL prior mixed messages that were being sent and/or the brain many just rebel (become so destabilized that it is unable to adjust to any more changes). Many times, tolerance WD can manifest due to the numerous changes as I've described above. Even a kindling effect can occur (which unfortunately happened to me as well as others). There are so many different stories about tolerance WD, reinstatements,. up-dosing and the variation of outcomes that result is mind-boggling and thus, there is no single formula in regard to navigating through such a time. In other words, one size does not fit all. In the most complicated cases, tapering then becomes more complex. The most distressing part is that one must experiment with dose percentages, holding times etc. until one finds an approach with is more tolerable. For the purposes of clarification: When I utilize the term "more tolerable" this does not imply "easy", nor symptom free, nor stabilized. For example, in my case, "more tolerable" meant completely bedridden, violently sick, hanging on minute by minute each day which was the lesser degree of suffering compared to full blown C/T WD state that my receptors would quickly lapse into IF I did not hold to a very specific taper schedule. The "more tolerable" scenario in my case, was still violent and unbearable. I wish to stress this since, I don't wish for you to believe that making larger dose reductions and holding for less time, is going to provide stability and clear sailing. Those who experience mild or moderate levels of tolerance do not suffer to this degree although, it's still no picnic by any means. Although with that said, due to the kindling effect that I experienced upon my last reinstatement, I was walking a very fine line ...........bordering as well as easily lapsing into C/T states at all times IF I did not keep the taper going. A mere 10 percent dose reduction resulted in very violent reactions...........beyond more severe than a full 10 MG cut (during my first taper attempt). In essence, each time I made a dose reductions I dealt with several forms of WD simultaneously: 1) ongoing, severe tolerance WD, 2) kindling effect along with WD effects from each dose reduction. The state I was in was very, very extreme. There was no way possible that I could get out the door....barely could make it to the bathroom. I can't elaborate any further since, it's counterproductive to my recovery at this time. BTW, I'm not a weak person by any means. I do my own home renovations, utilize a variety of power tools, heavy landscaping, shovelling 40 cm of snow etc. etc. So, when I state that I was incapacitated to the extreme..... it is an accurate representation of my experience rather than an emotional dramatization. Anyway, despite tapering, I was rendered more incapacitated than all of my previous C/T experiences (some of which involved C/T off multiple meds simultaneously). I only share this because you had asked in a previous post and I hesitate to respond to this specific question since, I don't like to engage in comparisons since, I'm not out to prove I was in worse shape than someone else since, I don't wish to minimize the degree of suffering experienced by another. I'm sharing upon your request since, you mentioned you needed hope and that if you knew of others who have gotten through that it would be helpful to you. With all that said, There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you are suffering profoundly and I KNOW you are not exaggerating the intensity of your symptoms. The nature and degree of my WD experience does not negate the serious degree of incapacitation that you are experiencing. To return to your situation........ in your particular circumstance (although not unique since, so many people are on a combo of psyche drugs) the xanax seems to be covering some of the AD WD effects (to a degree although I realize it's not fully doing so, at the current dose you are ingesting). BTW, Xanax has also been reported to have antidepressant properties to it. So, in light of all this, it can be very difficult to determine what is causing what, at this point. There is no way of determining IF you are building tolerance to the xanax, since, any warnings of such happenings going on could be interpreted as being symptoms of AD WD. The only way that one could perhaps determine if xanax is a problem (at this stage) is to pay attention to when the half-life wears off and IF you get worse symptoms once the half-life of xanax drops out of your system then it could be a significant player in this equation (causing xanax inter-dose WD symptoms that BTW, will very much resemble AD WD symptoms). However, even this cannot be relied upon IMHO since, once the xanax wears off your AD WD could appear to come forth stronger (since, it didn't disappear when xanax kicked in but rather, is just dampened down, to a degree). With all that said, you may be able to reasonably stabilize at some point,. as you have in the past. Some people need to hold for a very long time to allow all previous assaults (drug yo-yo effects along with the cumulative effect) to completely settle down before proceeding any further but that of course is only possible IF one is NOT in severe tolerance mode and/or kindling effect. Others, such as myself, got caught in such a violent chemical nightmare, of inhumane proportions, that regular taper schedules no longer could be applied since, no degree of reasonable stabilization was ever going to occur, at any point in time. AS well, the need to rapidly taper only added more inhumane insult to an existing inhumane situation. Nothing would settle things down except to get off the drug sooner rather than later. Another point the needs to be highlighted: you mentioned that you aren't able to see a pattern. If you are in some degree of tolerance then you will not likely exhibit a clear pattern when dropping a dose if you have not dropped the proper percentage. Secondly, the utilization of xanax will most definitely interfere with any WD cycles playing out. See, xanax it interrupting the natural WD sequence of events and thus, this can leave one confused as to what to do since, one cannot clearly note a pattern. Point worth mentioning............I have seen people in tolerance WD states who do start to feel better once they get down to lower doses. So, you may be at the most difficult stage and once past it, things could get a bit better. Again, there are so many different scenarios that could play out. Dear Lor, I can only relay information and experiences to you however, I hardly feel qualified to advise due to the complexities involved, as mentioned in the above paragraphs. I truly wish I had a concrete answer and solution however, that's the nightmarish reality of these situations, especially when other drugs are involved. Each person must experiment with dose percentages and holding times until they find one that will minimize the suffering as much as possible. Now, if you're not in tolerance WD and/or milder or moderate degree, you may have to utilize the option that was initially recommended by Alto re: tiny drops in dose especially at this stage (15 mgs) since, many people do start to incur a greater degree of suffering at this stage of WD (even those who are not in tolerance). One other point, as Alto mentioned, re: the drug metabolizing itself at lower doses is likely a relevant factor, coupled with the "yo-yo" effect that I described in the above paragraphs and then the tolerance factor, if it's present. You may believe you are in tolerance however, you may be experiencing the consequences of the "yo-yo" effect which may appear as a tolerance issue at this point in time. The cumulative effect, from all previous cuts may now be manifesting in full force and thus, it may take a long time for all of these previous cuts to fully up-regulate and for the brain to reach a degree of balance. As Rhi mentioned in one of her posts, I don't know if it would be wise to drop the xanax C/T at this point. You've been utilizing it for some time and if it were me, I would very, very slowly taper from the xanax in the future or you may be able to taper from it simultaneously while you continue with the Paxil taper however, that can be very tricky. Rhi is the only one I have heard of who is utilizing such a strategy and it seems to be working for her however, I don't believe she's in tolerance WD situation. With all that said, I do understand that you will have to make whatever decisions you feel are appropriate for yourself. I'm merely offering some feedback and/or presenting some possibilities as to what may be occurring in your situation. One other important point: Just because you were able to stop the xanax before without incurring any significant problems does not mean that this will occur in similar fashion. Your receptors, due to previous xanax exposure, could latch onto the re-introduction of xanax a lot quicker since, receptors do have a memory of the past drugs they were exposed to. Thus, tolerance and addiction more easily occurs in such situations. Also, the "yo-yo" effect of xanax use also needs to be taken into consideration as well. Regardless of all that is mentioned above, people do get off these drugs one way or another. You only have 15 mgs left to go. That's better than having to taper from a much higher amount, in your present state. So many of us have been housebound, bedridden and violently sick getting off these drugs from much higher doses but WE DID IT!! No matter how torturous this may be for you, please always remember that so many people have been where you are and have freed themselves from the clutches of the drug. You will too Lor. I know it's so hard to see at this time and it's so frightening but it has been done by so many. In regard to symptoms and intensity, you have to believe that anything and everything you experience is not unique. You are never alone in this suffering. Far too many people have been in the exact same place and even worse, but they have made it through to the other side. In regard to your question re: my decision not to utilize other drugs: I have too long of a past history of repeated psyche drug exposure and thus, my decision was to endure whatever I had to so I would NEVER, EVER have to endure such torture again. Trust me, I second guessed my decision repeatedly, throughout WD since the violence was so extreme and for so long that I wanted relief of any kind but I just couldn't give into the temptation since, I've learned too much about these drugs and thus, I knew it wasn't a path I was going to go down ever again. Lor, there are recovery stories over the net that you can read to keep yourself hopeful. I printed out such stories (since computer use was out of the question 90 percent of the time) and kept reading them over and over again, as a means to reassure myself that I was not alone in spirit....... that others had endured and they made it through. I have never felt comfortable, nor will I ever feeling comfortable stating that I am/was the worst case out there since, such a statement that would imply that I'm beyond unique or that God or the universe really had me on a hit list big time! (lol). I've always believed the opposite since, these drugs are prescribe indiscriminately to thousands upon thousands of people and patients are C/T, cold-switched and/or tapered far too rapidly and then reinstated on psyche drugs, poly-drugged etc. and thus, there is NO WAY that you, I nor anyone else can be the only case out there, nor the worse case of them all. Rather, we are only ONE of COUNTLESS cases. The most important thing to always remember is that others have made it through and so too will you! I better send this off ASAP. Please forgive me Lor but I have only very quickly scanned your other posts but will respond as I am able. Punar To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Punarbhava Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 At Pun's request: The correct link for the UK support line is http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/615-uk-australia-new-zealand-support-services/page__view__findpost__p__9765 Thanks Alto on both acct's. Pun To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 No problem Pun. Thanks very much for your thoughts....I am overwhelmed that you take the time to write in so much detail to someone in need.....I don't know quite how to express my gratitude. Just a note though, the cold turkeys were done a long time ago (more than 10 years ago) and I completely stabilised after each one of them. So I don't figure these into the equation really. It looks as if I will just have to hold, with an iron will, until I feel some improvement. Oh I wish, I wish, I hadn't updosed from 15mg to 20mg the last time. As you know, I held for 3 months at 15mg and kept deteriorating. I panicked. After I updosed, it took so long to get any relief that I figure in retrospect that it was possible that it may have taken that long to improve even if I had held. If you know what I mean...I'm not expressing myself properly at all tonight. I know you don't necessarily have any answers Pun. But I still appreciate you being here with me. Lor xxxxx Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 And Anj, Thanks for your support hun. One day.....one day.....we will meet and laugh together. Lots xxxx Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted August 21, 2011 Administrator Share Posted August 21, 2011 Pun's long post above makes sense to me. Unfortunately, we are presented with 4 choices: Increase dosage, decrease, stay the same, or quit. Focusing on the paroxetine, we can assess the risk-benefit of each decision: - Does increasing make sense? If yes, how much? - Does decreasing make sense? If yes, how much? - Does maintaining dosage make sense? - Does quitting make sense? I might try to eliminate the worst options, then make a decision about the most promising ones. Lor, the Xanax may have gone paradoxical on you, adding to symptoms. You don't have to take it regularly for this to happen. The only way to tell is by closely observing how it acts after you take it. I used to get rebound at every stage of Valium metabolization. For Xanax, this is tricky since its metabolization is so varied, half-life being a range of 6.3–26.9 hours, with a mean of about 11.2 hours. Some of that is alprazolam itself and some is an active metabolite. You might record what you feel 11 or 12 hours after you take a dose. (When you are working with 2 drugs, the permutations yield 16 choices (increase drug1, maintain drug2; decrease drug1, maintain drug2; maintain drug1, maintain drug2; etc.) This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Punarbhava Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 No problem Pun. Thanks very much for your thoughts....I am overwhelmed that you take the time to write in so much detail to someone in need.....I don't know quite how to express my gratitude. First off Lor........I really agonized about posting all this, since, I realize that hearing such news is very, very upsetting. I know exactly how you are likely reacting at this moment especially when you CNS is already in such hypersensitized state. However, when people don't understand what is happening and why (as was the case with myself and most people actually) they land up panicking and thus, embark on another serious of bad choices in an effort to attempt to receive relief. I'm truly sorry to relay such frightening information to you and believe me I truly understand how you are feeling right now. But knowledge is power IMHO. Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to psyche drugs. BTW, it's NOT your fault that you got into this situation. How could you have known? Bloodly doctors don't even understand how these drugs work and thus, they get their patients into this mess to begin with. Just a note though, the cold turkeys were done a long time ago (more than 10 years ago) and I completely stabilised after each one of them. So I don't figure these into the equation really. I know it appears to be irrelevant but it is all relevant in the grand scheme of things. As I mentioned re: the elastic analogy........your prior C/T (no matter how long ago and regardless of the fact that you stabilized, does not negate the fact that your brain went through repeated trauma. Even if the trauma was short term and quickly resolved/corrected, the fact remains that your brain went through a shock. Yes, it did bounce (spring back) like an NEW elastic does when stretched to the max but each repeated stretch does influence how the brain is going to respond to future, similar assaults (yes, even years later). People get lured into believing that their previous experiences with such things will pan out in the same manner, in the future, but this just isn't the case. Like you, I saw no relevancy in such things until I started researching the subject. color] It looks as if I will just have to hold, with an iron will, until I feel some improvement. Yes, for now I believe the only option is to hold and see how things play out. You haven't been at this present dose long enough to clearly make decision. I pray that there will be some degree of clarity that arises from this so you can proceed with some sort of plan. I don't believe it would be wise to make any more changes prior to seeing Dr. Healey. Hopefully you won't have to wait too much longer to get in to see him.color] Oh I wish, I wish, I hadn't updosed from 15mg to 20mg the last time.[/color] I completely understand the self-recrimination since, I myself regretted the decision to reinstate. I had no idea I was making the most dangerous decision of my life. Had I just stayed completely off the drug the first time I would have been fully recovered by now. With all that said, we can't go back and thus, blaming ourselves is, IMHO, a form of self-abuse. There is no way we could have known and to believe that we should have been psychic is just not being very kind to ourselves is it? However, with that said, we have to live the consequences of making an uninformed decision. Personally, I blame the government, Pharma industry and the doctors. It's criminal and medical negligence, unethical when Informed Consent has been intentionally omitted in the process. So, I'm NOT going to beat myself up over and over again about this. RAther, I'm placing the responsibility where it belongs. Lor, I'm going to respond to your next paragraph by creating another post. I don't wish to type out a response, only for my computer to time-out on me and/or to lose it in cyberspace. Pun To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Punarbhava Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Oh I wish, I wish, I hadn't updosed from 15mg to 20mg the last time. As you know, I held for 3 months at 15mg and kept deteriorating. I panicked. After I updosed, it took so long to get any relief that I figure in retrospect that it was possible that it may have taken that long to improve even if I had held. If you know what I mean...I'm not expressing myself properly at all tonight. Lor, my original plan was to respond line by line to your first lengthy post detailing the sequence of events. However, I changed my mind and decided to present various points all in one lengthy post, however, in retrospect I should have followed through with my original idea. In regard to your paragragh above, I forgot to detail this specific section of your journey. Dr. Joseph Glenmullen writes about this in his book "The Antidepressant Solution". I will paraphrase here since, I don't have the book close by ATM. When one makes a dose reduction, even if it is tiny and even if one does not exhibit overt signs of WD symptoms, one's receptors are still up-regulating. He also mentions that even when one does exhibit WD symptoms, no matter how minor, that one should hold at a dose for a couple of more weeks (at least) AFTER one APPEARS to have stabilized since, the disappearance of WD symptoms is NOT indicative of what continues to occur within the brain. The brain is still up-regulating from that specific dose (no matter how small). So, when you made these repeated drops in dose (0.5 mgs) on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, without waiting many weeks between such reductions, the cumulative effect then manifested months later. This is what I was referring to in my previous post. Once you reached 15 mgs (down from 20 mgs) all of those previous dose reductions began to manifest in a huge way. At that point it's not surprising that you lost all sense of any daily, weekly and/or even monthly pattern playing out. For the purposes of over-simplification, although you only made 0.5 mg drops ......by the time they banked up on each other, you were feeling the cumulative effects of a 5 mg drop. Also, you did switch to liquid prior to these subsequent weekly drops. I won't repeat what I mentioned in my previous post about how this switch could have had a negative impact on it's own but when coupled with rapid, small dose reductions that followed, it becomes more clear that the cumulative effect was manifesting. When you decided to up-dose again after this, the up-dose likely couldn't "take" quickly since, the receptors were already long on their way into the up-regulation mode/process. Perhaps the brain just couldn't reverse things at this point anymore. Perhaps you did develop tolerance at this stage but there's no way to know for certain since, xanax was then introduce OR your brain could have required many, many months (far more than the 3 months that you held at 15 mgs) to achieve a reasonable degree of stabilization. I know you don't necessarily have any answers Pun. But I still appreciate you being here with me. Regardless of why this happened and/or the theories of how such things happen, the question is: what do you do from here on out? Alto's post clearly outlines the options as well as highlights some really important points that I very much agree with. I think, at this time, the most prudent option is to HOLD at the present dose. Once a couple of weeks have passed, you may obtain a better sense of things. Right now your brain in processing the drop ....up-regulating and thus, I wouldn't be interrpting this process. Believe me I know this is very, very distressing for you and feel for what you are going through. Lor, I'm trying to relay as much as I can to you since, soon I will be leaving town for a few months. I'm sure I'm overwhelming you with too much info all at once. So sorry to do this to you. I know it's a lot to process especially when one is ill, scared and has an over-active CNS to contend with. I better post this now. Sorry I haven't been responding to your posts in chronological order. I'm trying to post in order of urgency and I apologize for taking so long to construct my long post but I had to construct it in increments. Much More Healing to You! Punarcolor] To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 I am definitely getting sicker with each passing day at this dose. Besides the usual things already detailed in my notes earlier, the cognitive deterioration has worsened. The nausea has really kicked in badly, I am very weak. I pretty much survive on meal replacement drinks but they seem very heavy for my stomach so it makes the nausea worse. Still, I must consume something. I am very underweight. This is the 11th day at 15.5mg, and pretty much where I gave up last time and increased to 20mg again. I am pretty surprised I haven't collapsed yet, I feel like I am going to much of the time. Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 This is the 11th day at 15.5mg, and pretty much where I gave up last time and increased to 20mg again. Can I just clarify on the above post. When I say this, I meant that I updosed when the SYMPTOMS got about this intense....not at the same holding time. Last time, I tried to hold for 3 months at about this point before I gave in. The symptoms have gotten to this intensity way more quickly this time, over the 16 to 15.5mg range. I also want to point out the fact that although I tapered fast from 20mg to 15mg the last time, this time it has taken approximately 8 months to get to this point. It seems as if when I reach about this dose range, severe c/t-type symptoms develop. I am becoming more and more debilitated each day. Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Punarbhava Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 This is the 11th day at 15.5mg, and pretty much where I gave up last time and increased to 20mg again. Can I just clarify on the above post. Most certainly. I appreciate clarifications. When I say this, I meant that I updosed when the SYMPTOMS got about this intense....not at the same holding time. Last time, I tried to hold for 3 months at about this point before I gave in. Yes, I understand and this is what my previous post was about re: delayed cumulative effect etc. BTW, Lor, I'm just repeating so you will understand that I understand. (lol). Many times, via written communication, both parties can become confused and/or misunderstood etc. so, I'm glad you've taken the initiative to ensure that we are understanding your situation and please feel free to correct us if we are missing something. The symptoms have gotten to this intensity way more quickly this time, over the 16 to 15.5mg range. I understand what you're stating here. However, xanax has been in this equation for a lot longer this time and thus, this "may" be a factor playing out re: xanax rebound effect and/or tolerance developing. I can't say with certainty. If no other drugs were in the picture we'd be able to have a clearer picture of what is going on. BTW, I don't intend to harp on this dear Lor. I just wish to bring forward any possibilities that may be playing out at this point in time. I also want to point out the fact that although I tapered fast from 20mg to 15mg the last time, this time it has taken approximately 8 months to get to this point. It seems as if when I reach about this dose range, severe c/t-type symptoms develop. I am becoming more and more debilitated each day. I fully understand what you are stating. I've made note of your signature and there appears to be a few problems in your taper that could be part of what is currently beng manifested at this time. please read below: Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. You held at 20 mgs for approx. 7 months but did not fully stabilize right? According to one your long posts, you did start to feel significant improvements two weeks before you switched over to generic and the two weeks you were on the generic. It appears that you likely would have been okish (relatively stable) IF you had not switched to generic. As mentioned, there could be up to 20 percent difference between brand and generic and thus, that's a substantial decrease in dosage for someone who's CNS is in a sensitive state. Afterwards, things went bad again and that's when you switched back to brand right? Then you started to taper again despite not fully stabilizing. Is this correct? Dec 2010~19.5 .5 mg drop (although not certain how many weeks you held at the above dose but I'll assume it was 1 month) 07/01/11~19 .5 mg drop - held for 5 weeks. 11/02/11~18.5 .5 mg drop (held for 5 weeks) 12/03/11~18 .5 mg drop (held for 4 weeks + 1 day) 28/03/11~17.5 .5 mg drop (held for 2 weeks + 2 days) 09/05/11~17 .5 mg drop (held for 6 weeks) 22/06/11~16.5 .5 mg. drop (held for 6 weeks + 3 days) 23/07/11~16 .5 mg drop (held for 3 weeks ) 13/08/11~15.5 .5 mg drop (currently holding at 11 days and counting) Lor, please try to keep in mind that you were originally prescribed paxil for panic and anxiety disorder. Now, when one tapers off these drugs and especially when one gets down to these lower doses, the drug rebound effect will manifest in way of increased anxiety and panic sensations. In fact, this rebound effect is always far more intense than one's original anxiety/panic disorder. With all that said, I have calculated the "holding phases" between your drops and it appears that you only held for 2 weeks with one of the drops, 3 weeks for another. I need to refer to my previous post regarding Glenmullen's statements. You should not have proceeded to initiate another drop in dose so soon after the previous drop. Your receptors , from the previous drop, were still in mid-upregulation mode when you initiated your next drop. A delayed cumulative effect could now be playing out. In regard to your present drop. Try to think back to all of your previous drops. Even though they may not have been as severe symptom wise, you must have noticed that symptoms peaked and then slowly subsided at some point or you wouldn't have initiated another drop in dose. So, you are now on day 11 of this drop. You report deterioration (which is understandable since, many people are still suffering on day 11 of a drop). I know you feel worse this drop than previous drops however, you did not hold for very long on some of your previous drops. Also worth noting: gastrointestinal symptoms do become more severe at these lower doses even for those who are NOT in tolerance WD. Sometimes, there is no way to avoid this experience and one must ride out the drop until things ease up a bit and then hold for quite some time afterwards. IF this drop evolves as I've just mentioned, then you may wish to implement Alto's suggestion re: making tinier drops in dose. This will likely mininize the degree of suffering but certainly will not eliminate suffering. These drugs are not easy to get off of, especially at the lower doses. Please try not panic regarding how you are feeling ATM and don't assume that it's tolerance WD playing out. I believe you cannot make this assumption so soon after this drop. You need to hold at this dose for at least 2 weeks or longer. Even if you are in tolerance WD, most people in such states hold for at least 2 weeks or longer. To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Punarbhava Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 another point..... you mentioned in one post that a friend of yours had a very difficult time during a certain phase in his WD but then things weren't as severe from that point forward. I've witnessed many people who have reported similar experiences. So, you may have to ride out a series of drops to get past the worst of it all (BTW, holding for proper lengths of time between drops). So, please keep the faith. Things may get easier from that point on. Punar To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 Dearest Punar, Thank you so much for taking the time to list a summary of my drops....it is a tiny bit inaccurate however. Because my cognitive skills have been so bad the last few days I was finding it very difficult to get it together to write such a summary; and also because the more I looked at it all, the less I could find any patterns and I found it upsetting. However, now that you have written a template I would like to tweak it a bit and add some more detail if I can. So thank you again. xxxxx The reason I have made some drops early is because of my observations of people on the other site who report some improvement when making a small drop. For example, I was (relatively) ok at 18.5mg which I held at for 4 weeks. Then I noticed substantial deterioration for the last couple of days on this dose, so I dropped to 18mg. I had 4 very bad days at the beginning at 18mg then 9 days were up and down. Days 14 to 16 were horrific. In essence the drop to 18mg was very bad. For the reason above, I dropped to 17.5mg to see if it might help. The first 4 days on this dose were still horrific. Then I noticed SOME improvement (up and down) for a few days, then more improvement. I held on this dose for 6 weeks, the last 2 weeks I felt the most normal I had felt in a long time!!!! This makes no sense whatsoever, well at least not to me. I would really like to read Glenmullen's book that you speak of but I am scared that I will read something in there that will frighten me senseless. I will write more later Pun.... Big hug, Lor xxxxxx Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 Pun's long post above makes sense to me. Unfortunately, we are presented with 4 choices: Increase dosage, decrease, stay the same, or quit. Focusing on the paroxetine, we can assess the risk-benefit of each decision: - Does increasing make sense? If yes, how much? - Does decreasing make sense? If yes, how much? - Does maintaining dosage make sense? - Does quitting make sense? I might try to eliminate the worst options, then make a decision about the most promising ones. Lor, the Xanax may have gone paradoxical on you, adding to symptoms. You don't have to take it regularly for this to happen. The only way to tell is by closely observing how it acts after you take it. I used to get rebound at every stage of Valium metabolization. For Xanax, this is tricky since its metabolization is so varied, half-life being a range of 6.3–26.9 hours, with a mean of about 11.2 hours. Some of that is alprazolam itself and some is an active metabolite. You might record what you feel 11 or 12 hours after you take a dose. (When you are working with 2 drugs, the permutations yield 16 choices (increase drug1, maintain drug2; decrease drug1, maintain drug2; maintain drug1, maintain drug2; etc.) Thanks Alto. I wish I knew which way to proceed. I don't want to updose....so that is out of the question. Cold turkey does not make sense and is dangerous, even in tolerance I imagine? Staying at this dosage is not yet bringing any improvement. This is Day 13 at 15.5mg. I have reduced my xanax usage over the past week from 0.5mg in the morning and 0.5 in the evening, to 0.5 in the morning and 0.25 in the evening. It hasn't seemed to make much difference. Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Administrator Altostrata Posted August 25, 2011 Administrator Share Posted August 25, 2011 Lor, we don't know definitely which way to proceed, we just have to select what seems to be the best choice. Reducing the benzo may not make a difference right away. It takes some time for it to work out of your body. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 In answer to Pun's questions..... You held at 20 mgs for approx. 7 months but did not fully stabilize right? According to one your long posts, you did start to feel significant improvements two weeks before you switched over to generic and the two weeks you were on the generic. Correct, there was VERY SLOW improvement overall, but no stabilisation, and it was up and down. It appears that you likely would have been okish (relatively stable) IF you had not switched to generic. As mentioned, there could be up to 20 percent difference between brand and generic and thus, that's a substantial decrease in dosage for someone who's CNS is in a sensitive state. Would possibly not have had a mini-crash, but I highly doubt I would have been stable. What I don’t get is why didn’t I react to the generic straight away? I believe it was 12-14 days before hell broke loose, and I was GOOD during those 12-14 days. Afterwards, things went bad again and that's when you switched back to brand right? Then you started to taper again despite not fully stabilizing. Is this correct? Correct. I really did not think I would fully stabilise. My current taper: 08/12/10~19.75 or so (no scales) .25 mg drop – held for 16 days In general, tolerable but noticed deterioration on 16th day (esp. cognitive problems, random nonsensical streaming in sleep states) 24/12/10~19.5 or so (no scales) .25 mg drop – held for 14 days Up and down, noticed slight improvement Day 11 to 14. Dropped when scales arrived. 07/01/11~19 .5 mg drop – held for 35 days In general, tolerable. Dropped due to deterioration at end. 11/02/11~18.5 .5 mg drop – held for 29 days In general, tolerable. Dropped due to deterioration at end. 12/03/11~18 .5 mg drop – held for 16 days Very bad drop, decided to reduce due to horrid deterioration. 28/03/11~17.5 .5 mg drop – held for 42 days First 4 days very bad, then up and down rest of drop tolerable then good. 09/05/11~17 .5 mg drop – held for 44 days In general, tolerable. 22/06/11~16.5 .5 mg. drop – held for 31 days In general tolerable, but reduction due to deterioration at end. 23/07/11~16 .5 mg drop – held for 21 days VERY bad drop all the way through with only a few “better” evenings here and there. Reduction to see if it would help. 13/08/11~15.5 .5 mg drop (currently holding at 13 days and counting) Anyone see anything I don't??????????? Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Punarbhava Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Hi Lor..... I'm only able to respond to one post this evening. I wish I knew which way to proceed. I will share my opinion however, in the end it will be your decision as to how you wish to proceed, based on all the information you've been given, weighed against all other opinions and options presented to you from other sources, along with researching what has been presented to verify and/or refute. I don't want to updose....so that is out of the question. I think we can agree, based on your history that up-dosing likely isn't a viable option any longer since, it appears that it will not produce positive, sustainable results. Cold turkey does not make sense and is dangerous, even in tolerance I imagine? C/T indeed is a dangerous option and there's plenty of information regarding that subject so I won't expand. C/T from a tolerance W/D situation is even worse than C/T from non-tolerance WD scenario. Trust me, I've lived both (several times) and I can verify this.color] Staying at this dosage is not yet bringing any improvement. Two weeks at any given dose is not a long time. You held much longer for most of your other drops. The good news is: you seem to be able to hold for quite some time between drops before you exhibit the tolerance factor rearing it's ugly head in more intense fashion. The longer you hold between drops the better. So, this is the good news and it works in your overall favor even though it may not feel like it ATM. Believe me, you wouldn't wish to be forced into making drops every 11 days or 2 weeks for the remainder of your taper. With that said, the possible bad news is: you may not feel well while tapering at these lower doses. Many people have had to accept that this is the price that must be paid in order to get off these drugs. The name of the game is to minimize the suffering as much as possible however, feeling okish is a gift that is not commonly received by many who are in these situations. Some of your drops seemed to go better than others and again, this also is common and thus, not unusual at all (from what I've witnessed, on various forums over the years). Sometimes, one must ride out a few really bad drops OR Sometimes one drop is utterly difficult but yet the next drop goes much better. One cannot predict how each drop will play out in regard to the symptom intensity factor. The best one can do is to ensure accuracy when measuring one's daily dose, cut by the right percentages and then hold for as long as possible before making the next drop in dose. Other than that, there's really not much more one can do I'm afraid. I realize this isn't good news but unfortunately, this is the sad reality of these situations. This is Day 13 at 15.5mg. I would try holding longer if possible. I have reduced my xanax usage over the past week from 0.5mg in the morning and 0.5 in the evening, to 0.5 in the morning and 0.25 in the evening. It hasn't seemed to make much difference. Dear Lor, may I ask what provoked you to make such a large drop in xanax? I believe Alto and I recommended that you spend some time observing how the xanax was playing out (if possible) based on the half-life factor. Did you notice some paradoxical effects playing out as mentioned in one of Alto's post? To make such a significant drop in one medication during a difficult stage (current drop) in your AD WD just isn't a prudent unless of course you were paradoxical. I believe I mentioned, in an earlier post, that it would be prudent to refrain from altering xanax dosage at this time and instead wiser to do so in the future but to do so very slowly . I also mentioned that it would be very tricky attempting to do so while still tapering your AD. With all that said, you must do what you feel is right for you regardless of what others would do in a similar situation. I hope this all works out okay. I hope I can respond to your other post sometime tomorrow. Hopefully, you will obtain some relief over the next few days. Punar To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Punarbhava Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Presenting a possibility that may be playing out during this taper......... Your recent and significant decrease in xanax, for the past week, could be a relevant factor in explaining why this drop is not going well. Of course, you will have to decide whether you feel this is indeed the case. I know you did mention that you've noticed no difference from dropping it however, you did also mention, in a previous post, that you were becoming sicker by the day with no let up, as well as this taper being far worse and hitting more quickly than that last time you were at this same dose. (hope I'm remembering correctly) Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there since, it may be part of the problem. Punar To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Punarbhava Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Hi Lor........ the list you provided re: your drops and how they played out, is indeed most helpful. This is why I had requested such information in one of my earliest post. It allows one to view when drops were made, how long one held, as well as how each drop played out etc. etc. With that said, I do realize how it can feel mind-blowing to put such a list together when one is feeling so incredibly sick. It certainly appears that you are experiencing tolerance WD. I'm very sorry this has happened to you and I'm also sorry for questioning your assessment in this regard. I was sharing thoughts based on general information, while, at the same time, trying to present any and all possibilities that could be influencing your current state of health. I just wish to mention though, that those possibilities still remain but at least I can see that tolerance WD IS manifesting when you hold for too long. As the saying goes, "a picture is worth a thousand words"..........well, so too does a chart, list, graphic etc. hope to post more later today when my mind is functioning better. How is today going for you? It's day 14 right? Keep hanging in there. This drop may be horrid but the next drop may go much better. Peace, Healing and Full Recovery will Happen for you Lor. Always remember that this suffering brings you one day closer to freedom. Hugs Punar To Face My Trials with "The Grace of a Woman Rather Than the Grief of a Child". (quote section by Veronica A. Shoffstall) Be Not Afraid of Growing Slowly. Be Afraid of Only Standing Still. (Chinese Proverb) I Create and Build Empowerment Within Each Time I Choose to Face A Fear, Sit with it and Ask Myself, "What Do I Need to Learn?" Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 Punar, thanking you for your thoughts just wouldn't be enough. I have reinstated the 1mg xanax as, even though I really don't feel it has contributed to the deterioration (remember, at 15mg last time the symptoms were pretty much the same, increasing in severity over 3 months despite NOT using xanax). But while I am feeling this horrific, I do not think it's a good idea to reduce now either, although I HATE myself for taking it. I feel as if the seroxat is by far the most brutal beast, at this point in time. The question is..what options do I have now? Day 14, even more brutal, I won't elaborate, but trust me. Day 15, today probably worse, we'll see how it goes. It appears, like last time at 15mg, steady deterioration at this dose, with no days of improvement. The only reason I am not bed-bound or running to ER is because of the xanax. Although even with it I am struggling to do anything but the most basic things, and even then god knows how I manage. Lor Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
stan Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 hi Pun and Lor and ... how less suffer with psychiatric meds: not re-instate not updose when bad, do nothing, suffer and wait, better days will come stay on the less dose possible take the dose daily and regularly, at the same hour, keep in mind you are on a poison which has burned a part of your receptors and after 15 years there are damages it is not the drop the culprit, it is the 15 years taken the solution is not in a drop, it is to be meds free to stop nerves alteration and begin the improvements after my 13 years, i knew one thing : i will suffer from 13 years body deterioration ; and i suffer for anxiety 12 years paxil - cold turkey 1,5 month - switch celexa 1 year taper; total 13 years on brain meds 67 years old - 9 years med free in protracted withdrawal rigidity standing and walking, dryness gougerot-szoegren, sleep deteriorate, function as have a lack of nerves, improving have been very little Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 hi Pun and Lor and ... how less suffer with psychiatric meds: not re-instate not updose when bad, do nothing, suffer and wait, better days will come stay on the less dose possible take the dose daily and regularly, at the same hour, keep in mind you are on a poison which has burned a part of your receptors and after 15 years there are damages it is not the drop the culprit, it is the 15 years taken the solution is not in a drop, it is to be meds free to stop nerves alteration and begin the improvements after my 13 years, i knew one thing : i will suffer from 13 years body deterioration ; and i suffer Hi Stan, I really admire you and thank you for supporting me, it means a lot. I believe your taper was not as problematic as when you were off? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but that's what I think I remember you telling me. Were you in tolerance? How quickly did you drop? Did you stabilise in between drops? Lor Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
Lor95 Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 Just a clarification... I have reinstated the 1mg xanax as, even though I really don't feel it has contributed to the deterioration (remember, at 15mg last time the symptoms were pretty much the same, increasing in severity over 3 months despite NOT using xanax). But while I am feeling this horrific, I do not think it's a good idea to reduce THE XANAX now either, although I HATE myself for taking it. I feel as if the seroxat is by far the most brutal beast, at this point in time. The question is..what options do I have now? Day 14, even more brutal, I won't elaborate, but trust me. Day 15, today probably worse, we'll see how it goes. It appears, like last time at 15mg, steady deterioration at this dose, with no days of improvement. The only reason I am not bed-bound or running to ER is because of the xanax. Although even with it I am struggling to do anything but the most basic things, and even then god knows how I manage. Lor Paxil 20mg 1995 for panic disorder/anxiety. 3 attempts to w/d c/t. Horrific w/d hit after 1 month each time. Straight back to 20mg. 2003-2007: 30mg. 30mg to 20mg slowly over 2007. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Jan 2009) - big problems, back up to 20mg (pill) immediately. Recovered slowly. 20mg to 15mg (liquid) (Dec to Feb 2010) - suicidal. Back to 20mg May 2010, could not stabilise. Dec 2010 to 31/01/2012: 20mg~9.6mg in tiny drops. 21/02/12~9.0 08/03/12~8.4 22/03/12~7.9 12/04/12~7.5 03/05/12~7.1 24/05/12~6.7 14/06/12~6.3 05/07/12~6.0 26/07/12~5.7 17/08/12~5.5 ALSO ON 1MG XANAX Link to comment
stan Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Hi Stan, I really admire you and thank you for supporting me, it means a lot. I believe your taper was not as problematic as when you were off? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but that's what I think I remember you telling me. Were you in tolerance? How quickly did you drop? Did you stabilise in between drops? Lor in tolerance maybe 6 years, i was slowly more bad; the hell begin when i decided to wean; i knew i had only one road to save what can be saved:be off. I never stabilise in between drops; i had depression, anxiety and many hormones disrupt(today less disrupt), i was from very bad to bad every day; i catched akathisia severe at 9 to 14,5 months off; all my functions have been deteriorate; my taper was hell, the two years after off were hell; and today i am better but have many physical problems, unable to walk far, to exercise, i never had nothing before ; it is all paxil related; i have receptors destroyed in all body; one thing i never had is head pressure; for anxiety 12 years paxil - cold turkey 1,5 month - switch celexa 1 year taper; total 13 years on brain meds 67 years old - 9 years med free in protracted withdrawal rigidity standing and walking, dryness gougerot-szoegren, sleep deteriorate, function as have a lack of nerves, improving have been very little Link to comment
angie007 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Hi Lots, It will be an interesting thing to see, you below 15mg and see how that makes you feel, as you have never in 15yrs been below 15mg, I too agree with Stan and Pun, if you need the xanax then take it, and please we know your not going to abuse it, but some days are just bad, WE KNOW, use the xanax, and i think, forgive me if anyone disagrees, but i do feel the only option you have now is to drop, even a small amount might bring you some small relief, as looking at your history i dont think you are one that is going to improve between drops like many of us here can attest too, me and stan and pun in particular. Hang on in there huni, better days are coming your way, no matter how bad the bad days are, we know, we are all routing for ya xxxxx Began taking 30mg Seroxat on 15th Jan 1997 for grief issues. Remained at that dosage until Dec 05, did doctor ct, akathesia set in along with being non functional and overly emotional, brain fog. Doctor prescribed prozac, propranelol and diazeapam to counteract side effects, and told me to ct those 3 after 2.5/3 months use, induced wd seizure on 2nd day after ct. Was reinstated on seroxat 20mg in april 06, remained at that dose until Nov 07 and began a very slow taper lasting 56 months, finally DRUG FREE on 11th may 2011. Link to comment
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