KLA324 - Need guidance to get off this cocktail please

[starburst]

Hi Karen

I have read through your post and it sounds like you have had a difficult time. A lot of doctors are very quick to throw Antidepressant drugs/anti anxiety meds in to the equation without first attempting more natural approaches to dealing with the stress of life. We are fed the lie that we have a 'chemical imbalance in our brain' and readily accept medical help in the form of Antidepressants. Here is a link to the topic on the myth of chemical imbalance http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4291-again-chemical-imbalance-is-a-myth-stop-the-lies-please/page-2?hl=%2Bchemical+%2Binbalance#entry98109

 

You mention that you feel worse first thing in the morning. This seems to be a common thing and is associated with early morning cortisol rises in the body. Here is a link to that topic http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/33-waking-with-panic-or-anxiety-managing-cortisol-spikes/page-5?hl=cortisol#entry27272I personally find that getting up and taking a glass of water with magnesium  seems to settle me down. I also try to keep busy and distract my brain. Usually by lunch time the feeling has lifted somewhat and just knowing that seems to help me deal with it, knowing that it will get better. 

 

You also mention that you feel a bit 'out of it' as though you are standing outside your body and watching from afar. I have never experienced this but have heard that it is also a common withdrawal symptom. You can read about other people's experience with that issue here http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1766-derealization-or-depersonalization/

 

At the moment it is probably good that you stabilise on the current medication before attempting to taper. My personal opinion favours a slow and steady tapering from the medication.  I found this particular thread very encouraging 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2364-the-slowness-of-slow-tapers/

 

Try not to be too hard on yourself at this time. It is very easy to become overwhelmed with our symptoms and to think that this period of life will never end. Do whatever you can to help yourself. It is different for every person but some things that I find helpful are watching youtube videos of 'healthy eating vloggers' it really distracts my mind! I just recently bought some adult colouring books which I find amazingly therapeutic. Here is a link to that topic http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/8666-art-therapy-mandala-circles-adult-coloring-books-etc/ When my anxiety is bad I prefer to stay home but I do try to distract myself as much as I can. Focussing on the negative thoughts has been detrimental to me and has led me to the ER on more than one occasion. I try to spend time researching healthy natural alternatives to help me with my anxiety. Sometimes I get sucked in to expensive products that have proven to be useless but these days I check here before buying any new 'miracle cure'. Some people do experience extra sensitivity whilst withdrawing and are unable to tolerate anything new in the way of supplements. I love human touch and just asking my husband to brush my hair has given me a tremendous sense of peace. I know you are on your own but you do have two gorgeous little dogs who need you and the love that they can give will be very beneficial to you. In many ways I envy people who are withdrawing without the added stress of a family to take care of. I wouldn't be without my family but it doesn't allow me the luxury of laying in bed all day and taking care of myself. I have to cook and clean and take care of young children. For me that is the reason that I will be taking this withdrawal thing slowly. I just can't afford to crash along the way. In regards to your work colleagues I think that you have every right to keep your story private. It is probably safer for you emotionally to put a barrier around you that will protect you from having to answer too many questions when you are feeling quite vulnerable. Most people should be understanding of that. If in time you find that there is someone that you feel you can trust then you many change your perspective.

 

 

Every little new twinge or slight pain that comes up I am over-analyzing. I feel very fortunate that I have not suffered a lot of the symptoms that many on here have...no brain zaps, migraines, etc. - but I worry about that daily. I must keep focusing on what "may" happen in my RI/WD journey and focus instead of what "is" happening. Otherwise I am going to make myself crazy.

 

 

 

It is a bit like childbirth the first time. Everyone wants to tell you what it is like from their perspective. But for everyone it is different, no two stories are the same. I have a tendency to worry about every symptom that I read about and how it might affect 'me'. I read a book recently and the author said that when you go out for a day picnic you only take the food and water, picnic blanket etc that you need for that day. You don't take enough food and water and equipment to last a year. And yet that is often what we do when we worry, instead of focussing on the 'now' or the moment in hand we start obsessing about the future and every potential problem. It is no wonder that we can't cope with that. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wish you all the best in your journey. You are already showing that you are a loving and kind women by posting very thoughtful and caring messages on other people's threads. I can see that you have a soft and gentle heart. Sometimes it is so easy to be self centred in this journey and I understand that completely but I also think that reaching out and offering help to others when you feel so bad is a wonderful gift.

[KLA324]

Starburst -

 

I was so touched by your message - it came at a time when I REALLY needed it! Thank you so much for all the heartfelt information and links you left for me! I have taken them all to heart. I just cannot tell you what your post means to me...

 

I went to day and bought Magnesium along with some other items such as Probiotics and some Braggs Vinegar that I've been meaning to try. Nothing too "over the top" and I will definitely listen to my body as I begin their use. I am luckier than many as I have been able to sleep most nights by using only Chamomile Tea and an OTC sleep aid. Fortunately, even though my doctor/pill pusher gave me Amitriptylene and then Trazodone for sleep, I didn't take either one consistently - which I think has helped in my discontinuation.

 

Now I just need to get stabilized and then start weaning from this Citalopram.

 

I hope you are having a good weekend and experiencing some joy in life. It is so comforting to know we have one another to lean on for support in this journey.

 

Karen

[KLA324]

Today started bad. Lots of self-loathing, regrets and the pain of being alone. Then a friend reached out to me and asked me to lunch. As difficult as it was, I went. For the first time in awhile I actually felt a bit normal. Must have been a window. This is the first day I actually ate 3 meals. That's good because I've lost too much weight too quickly.

 

I've now had my nighttime tea and sleeping aids and I pray I sleep and wake with another window.

 

Karen

[starburst]

Hi Karen

I'm glad that my post was encouraging to you. I wondered afterwards if it wasn't too long winded with an overdose of links!!

 

I'm really pleased that you accepted the lunch date. Sometimes the thing that we feel the least like doing is often a blessing in disguise. I lost quite a bit of weight over the past two weeks which was good but now that my anxiety has kind of stabilised the weight has too. I wouldn't recommend 'The Anxiety Diet' to anyone ;-)

 

Have a good sleep and I pray you wake up feeling refreshed tomorrow. 

[KLA324]

Tomorrow I see my dr to get all the results from my blood tests. I hope something shows in my thyroid or hormone levels to explain what I'm going through, but I doubt it. That will mean that I then need to convince her that what I have been experiencing is WD from the lethal combo she had me on.

 

I feel I have done well - I have only taken the Xanax once. I have taken some Propanolol a few times but not very much (3-4). So basically all I am on is the Celexa (generic) and I want her support in my decision to wean from this drug. I am prepared for her to not support me since the last time I was there she said I may need to be on an AD for life. My plan is to ask for 10mg tablets so that I can begin to taper.

 

Either way, once I get the prescription, I plan to change doctors. It turns out that one of the doctors recommended here, Mark Foster, is in the same town where I live. Hopefully he can guide me thru this journey in a compassionate manner.

 

Karen

[starburst]

Either way, once I get the prescription, I plan to change doctors. It turns out that one of the doctors recommended here, Mark Foster, is in the same town where I live. Hopefully he can guide me thru this journey in a compassionate manner.

 

That is good news Karen. All the best x

[KLA324]

(((Hugs to you, Starburst)))

 

Well had my dr appt. I think she was rather taken aback at how I stood up for myself. It was easier to do this time since my last visit I was a wreck...sobbing uncontrollably, shaking, unable to sit still. 

 

Went through all my blood tests and (as I thought), nothing stood out on the thyroid results although there are some results out of range (she said this is normal?). Testosterone was in range but my progesterone was elevated - again, she said that was OK? The big red flag (to her) is that my Vitamin D level was 9. She said it should be in the 60-80 range? Therefore she prescribed 100,000 units of D2 per week. She said Vitamin D (especially that low) has been linked to depression and anxiety?

 

Next up was the discussion of the AD meds. What she wants me to do is drop the Citalopram from 20mg to 10mg for 2 weeks and then drop to 5mg and see how I feel. I am definitely not comfortable with that. Ideas anyone?

 

I flatly told her that when I came in for the kidney stone in Aug (saw her counterpart), that I specifically said I had come OFF the Zoloft several months ago so I was very confused WHY the other doctor would give me not only Trazadone but also Tramodol to take on TOP of the Phentermine they knew I was taking to lose the Zoloft weight. I reminded her of the frantic condition I was in when I came to see her 2 weeks ago as a result and that I definitely went thru a delayed reaction to coming off then going on another AD combo. To my surprise, she agreed. BUT, when I then followed up with not feeling comfortable to conduct a taper in the 20mg to 10mg t0 5mg manner and that I had done a lot of reading in the past 2 weeks about WD and the need to taper at a SLOW rate...almost shaving pieces off - her response was "Oh that only applies to Paxil...all the other SSRI's are much safer but, yes, it has been proven that the WD from PAXIL can be quite brutal". 

 

Ummmm.............WTH?

 

I challenged that with "well there are 1000's of stories about people who have seizures, worsening depression, anxiety, obsessive thoughts and more while coming off ALL AD's and there have been NO long-term studies done on their safety" and she said "yes, they have 10+ years of safety studies done in Europe prior to them coming to the US. Plus, you have only taken Zoloft for 2 years and it's not until 3 years that there's any concern with their use."

 

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............REALLY???

 

So, in the end, she supported my intention to come OFF the AD's but is WAY off-base when it comes to her knowledge of the harm they can do! 

 

I told her I had only taken the Xanax once and that I had used the leftover Propanolol a few times when I felt I had no other option. She was happy about that and was very encouraging. 

 

So away I went with a prescription for Vit D, Citalopram and Propanolol. 

 

Karen 

[starburst]

Hi Karen, I can't believe how low your vitamin D was at 9! I thought mine was low at 49. Yes, low Vitamin D has definitely been linked to increased anxiety and depression https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201307/vitamin-d-deficiency-and-depression. I am amazed at just how many people seem to be low in Vitamin D. Even here in Australia where we get a lot of sunshine it seems to be a common deficiency. 

 

Next up was the discussion of the AD meds. What she wants me to do is drop the Citalopram from 20mg to 10mg for 2 weeks and then drop to 5mg and see how I feel. I am definitely not comfortable with that. Ideas anyone?

 

 

 

That seems to be the common prescription from most doctors regards tapering off anti depressants. Knowing what I know now it is a very unwise option. You have not even stabilised on you 20mg of Citalopram and yet she wants you to drop down to 5mg within a two week period. I can only begin to imagine how that would affect your nervous system. I would follow the advise from people here and stabilise on the 20mg of Citalopram before attempting  further cuts. Once you are feeling more stable you can begin to taper at the 10% rule http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1024-why-taper-by-10-of-my-dosage/

 

I challenged that with "well there are 1000's of stories about people who have seizures, worsening depression, anxiety, obsessive thoughts and more while coming off ALL AD's and there have been NO long-term studies done on their safety" and she said "yes, they have 10+ years of safety studies done in Europe prior to them coming to the US. Plus, you have only taken Zoloft for 2 years and it's not until 3 years that there's any concern with their use."

 

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............REALLY???

 

 

It would appear that your doctor has very limited understanding about the real cost of withdrawing from these medication. I would probably smile politely at her comments but rest assured that you probably know more than her at the end of the day!

 

Karen, I've just finished reading the biography of Nathan Pritikin. I found it interesting because he battled with the medical fraternity for most of his life. It was only after his death that his findings were validated by many in the medical community. He wasn't pushing drugs he was pushing food! In the same way you have the ability to fight your battle the best way that you can. Arming yourself with knowledge is powerful. Keep researching, keep reading and listen to your body. You will know when you are ready to take the next step in this journey. 

 

Thank you for the update. I look forward to hearing how you go on the vitamin D. Much love xx

[KLA324]

Thank you for that link, Starburst!  Maybe that really is a "portion" of my issue? I'm taking your advice and not lowering my AD at all right now. I've only reinstated less than 2 weeks ago and, although I feel a bit more stable, I'm still not at the point to make a drop. I was thinking of a 10% drop per month, if I was stable. 

 

I definitely agree that my doctor (like most of ours) is very under-educated in the use, WD and long-term effects of AD's. This should be a mandatory part of medical school, IMO. 

 

Concerning my Vitamin D level - since I knew it had been tested previously, I asked if it had ever been that low and she said "no". That's good to know and hopefully I can get it back up to an acceptable level. 

 

Karen

[KarenB]

You are sounding so strong and empowered Karen, it's inspiring to hear . 

Hugs,

KarenB

[KLA324]

(((Karen)))

 

Thank you.

 

I'm still very new and afraid of what's happening to my body but I am trying to stay strong.

[KLA324]

Yesterday was the pits.

 

My daughter has completely stopped talking to me because she can't deal with my current condition. I can understand in some ways - I mean, I don't want to be around anyone when I feel like this but to completely cut off all communication seems excessive. I went by her house after work (5 min from me) wanting to see my grandkids before they all left for a vacation in Mexico the next day. She had locked the entry gate and has my calls/texts blocked. Needless to say, I was upset. I went home and cried...for the first time in 3 days. I then called my mom and cried/talked for 3 hours until I got it all out. After that experience I had a raging headache and my eyes were swollen...I had no dinner...so yesterday I just worked from home.

 

I seem to be having a slower time adjusting to this AD after RI. It's not that I am in the deep throes of depression that I was at the beginning of the month before RI, but I am not back to my normal self. Or do I even remember what my "normal self" is after all this time on AD's? Either way, I constantly have this almost lingering, nagging thought of impending doom on my shoulder and, while I am able to function in the world and my job (which is very demanding), it's like I am just going through the motions instead of being fully engaged. Does that make sense to any of you??

 

On this journey I have found many people who are on AD - for supposedly "non depression" reasons. My 78 year old mom - she has been on Cymbalta 60mg (pain after hip replacement) and Amitriptylene 20mg (for sleep) for over 10 years. Then a guy I work with who is on Lexapro for anxiety. Yet both of them say "I was given the meds for XXXX...not because I am depressed". It makes me want to shout at the top of my lungs "TRY TO GO OFF THEM THEN AND YOU WILL HAVE A NEW FRIEND - DEPRESSION"!

 

Today I am feeling better - let's call it a Cloudy Window day.

 

Karen

[Martina23]

Karen, I am sorry that you are not feeling well. I find it not nice from your daughter. I dont understand why she does not take time to check which problem you have and that the withdrawal really exists. You took care of her when she was little, I think she ows you at least a bit consideration. I am sure that if you would see the grandchildren you would also manage the problems with antidepressants better.

 

By me, my mother is problem. She is such a type who "knows everything". She starts every sentence with "I say".  She also thinks that the Lyrica or any other antidepressants does not have any withdrawal. And if I say how unwell I feel, she says immediately that I should go to psychiatrist  and take antidepressants. It is hard with such a person, but what you should do. I try to learn that the people you can not change, they change only if they want and we have to accept they are as they are. But always tell yourself that it is not your fault and you are not the bad one here, that she has a problem with her behaviour and not you. Maybe once when she will be ill will recognize that her behaviour was not ok and changes herself.

[KLA324]

Thank you, Martina.

 

Yes, when this depression first hit me I sat my daughter down to tell her what I was going thru. I told her that I just wanted her to know in case she ever went thru anything like this. Her response was "Oh, I will never go thru that!". Well, I hope that is true, but you never know.

 

I'm sorry your mom is not more supportive. You could really use her help and understanding at this moment. That would maybe even help you heal faster.

 

I hope you were able to have some good times on your holiday with the children.

 

Karen

[KLA324]

I am excited! Today is the first day since RI that I woke up without the cortisol pulsing thru my body and giving me a sense of doom. I guess this window started yesterday...I was able to slow down my thinking and, when I felt a bit of anxiousness coming on, I was able to breathe thru it. No anxiety meds. 

 

I plan to stay on this current dose (10mg) for another week or two and then start weaning. 

 

I pray this mood stays. I even dressed up for my office Halloween party. I am Tippi Hedren from Hitchcock's "The Birds". 

 

Healing thoughts to all,

Karen

[Martina23]

That is great Karen. We will also go with children on one Halloween party which will be made by the Philipinese community here. Last time it was quite ok, there was such a singer dressed like Tina Turner, so my daughter immediately started to dance and we were all happy. My son Benny liked much more refreshments on the table, he is not so much on dancing or singing...

[KarenB]

Enjoy enjoy .  What lovely evidence of healing for you.

[KLA324]

Martina - I hope you and the children have a lovely time at the Halloween party.

 

(((Karen))) so nice to see you. 

 

I hope both of you ladies have a nice weekend. 

 

Karen

[starburst]

Hi Karen

I am sorry to hear about your daughter. It is hard when those we love the most struggle to understand what is happening with us on this journey. When I look back at my own relationship with my mother it was quite selfish on my behalf. If she didn't meet my needs then I deemed her to be a 'bad mother'. I cringe when I reflect on that. It is only as an older woman who now realises that life isn't quite what I thought it was when I was younger that I understand my mother much better. I wish I could go back and change the behaviour, the years of non communicating, but I can't. I just feel blessed that she is so forgiving and today we have a better relationship than ever. Life is a great teacher and your daughter is one of the students. She has shut you out and that is hard. I did the same to my own mother. But she will grow and learn and eventually come back. Keep loving her, save a place in your heart for her return which will be inevitable. As hard as it is you need to focus on "YOU" right now and getting yourself back to a place where you feel safe, well and able to deal with what life throws at you. 

 

I am so glad to hear that you are feeling better. Enjoy this window of reprieve. Don't be in too much of a hurry to taper whilst you are feeling so well. Do you know that I have a phobia of birds and can you guess where that phobia stemmed from? That movie 'The Birds' with Tippi Hedren. Oh how I loved/hated that movie!!! I managed to watch it again a few years ago and couldn't for the life of me see how it had managed to frighten me so. Enjoy your office party and make the most of feeling 'normal' again (whatever that is!)

[KLA324]

Thank you for those kind words, Starburst. I am trying to not let my daughters behavior affect my healing. It's difficult.

Today was Day 2 or not waking with anxiety and panic. I pray tomorrow will be the same. I also hope for the same for everyone here.

Karen

[KLA324]

Update - waking up in the morning is still anxiety clear. I do have problems getting out of bed - not from being anxious but more with troubling thoughts about what the day may bring. I am noticing that the surreal mindset I've had since RI has started to lift a bit. I hope that is a good sign and that maybe it is time to start tapering? I am sleeping probably 6 hours straight at a time so I consider myself lucky. 

 

I'm still on 10mg Citalopram alone - along with Fish Oil 2xday, Magnesium 25mg and Simply Sleep at night for sleep. Oh and the 100,000mg Vitamin D per week. 

 

Sending healing thoughts to everyone,

Karen

[AliG]

Hi Karen,

 

Sending positive thoughts your way !!     You are sounding good .  You are lucky to be sleeping. It makes things so much easier.  I have problems with insomnia, and it's the " pits". !!   Brain can't function .    

 

Hugs,

 

Ali.

[KLA324]

Thank you so much, Ali. 

 

I agree that sleeping is KEY to this recovery - whether you are in WD or RI. I actually look forward to bedtime. It's the one time each day when I can lay totally still, sip on my Chamomille Tea, cuddle my dogs, and after about 30 mins, drift off to sleep. 

 

I don't know if it's the addition of the Fish Oil and Magnesium, but I do not lie awake with racing thoughts, trying to calm my head down. When I feel my mind trying to "go there", I either concentrate on the TV or sing a song in my head. 

 

Karen

[starburst]

I agree that sleeping is KEY to this recovery - whether you are in WD or RI. I actually look forward to bedtime. It's the one time each day when I can lay totally still, sip on my Chamomille Tea, cuddle my dogs, and after about 30 mins, drift off to sleep. 

 

 

Oh yes, I get that! Since quitting alcohol six weeks ago I have found that my bed has become a place of solitude and rest for me once again. My sleep pattern is back to normal, even after a whole day of anxiety I can still sleep........blessed!

[KLA324]

Starburst - you quit alcohol...that is wonderful news! Congrats, my friend!

 

Karen

[KLA324]

Well wish me luck - I've decided to try a small taper. The only thing (as far as prescription drugs) I'm currently on is the 10mg of Citalopram. I guess I will try to reduce by 10% and hold for a few weeks?

 

My sleep has been good (despite this darn time change on Sunday) and I haven't awoken in a state of panic/anxiety in almost a week. I'm functioning better at work and have not cried in almost a week as well.

 

So I think it's time. I pray I am doing the right thing....

 

Karen

[starburst]

Good luck Karen.

[KarenB]

Just a thought: since you so recently crashed from a CT, and have only had a week without crying at work etc, I'd tend to hold a bit longer and allow some real stability to build up in your nervous-system.  Of course you know best where you're at.  Best wishes which ever way you decide to go,

 

Hugs,

KarenB

[KLA324]

Thank you, Karen.  I think you are right. As the day went on and I thought more about it, I'm thinking about waiting another week just to make sure I am ready. I mean one more week won't be too long to delay things, correct?

 

Thank you for thinking of me.

 

Karen

[starburst]

Thank you, Karen.  I think you are right. As the day went on and I thought more about it, I'm thinking about waiting another week just to make sure I am ready. I mean one more week won't be too long to delay things, correct?

 

Thank you for thinking of me.

 

I'm glad that Karen said what she did. I was thinking the same thing. It is so easy to forget the bad days when you are feeling good but because it was such a short time ago that you were not feeling so good I think waiting a bit longer before tapering is a good idea. 

[Fresh]

Hi Karen ,   good to hear you're starting to feel better.

 

If you want to be sensible about this , you should wait MINIMUM a month before even thinking about tapering.

 

By that time , you'll have a good sense of a baseline that you want to return to after each drop.  

And your central nervous system will have had a chance to recover from the past month or two.

It needs the time , and starting to taper in a week is asking for trouble.

 

Since you stopped sertraline in April things seem to have been a bit all over the shop , if you know what I mean.

There are no credits for hurrying this process.  

btw , your dog is gorgeous!

 

Best wishes ,  Fresh

[AliG]

Hi Karen,

 

I , so agree with Fresh , and others. It's too soon.  Wait and get stable, first.  This is not a race!  The main objective is to be even and functional. Throw away the calendar, and listen to your body.  Slow and steady, is the way to go.

 

Hugs,

 

Ali.

[KLA324]

Starburst, Fresh and Ali - THANK YOU for reminding me that this is not a race but a journey. You are right...I got overly anxious due to my recent "good luck" with windows.

 

I will wait until Nov 15th and then, if things are like they are now, I will start my SLOW taper.

 

You guys are the BEST resource and I so appreciate your caring nature.

 

Hugs and healing thoughts to each of you.

 

Karen

[KLA324]

Oh and Fresh - thank you for your comment on my 'lil guy, Tucker. He has the sweetest face and disposition. When he wags his little stump/tail, his whole body shakes. It's so adorable!

 

Having him and my other Cocker, Ella, to snuggle with have helped in my healing. No matter WHAT - they are always exited to see me.

 

I also use them as a gauge of my emotions. They can be a bit sneaky (Ella likes to unravel toilet paper) and demand attention (Tucker likes to bark at dogs at the TV if I don't pay attention to him) - but I don't lose my temper or get inpatient. That's how I know I am not "crossing a line". I've never really had a bad temper but so many people on the forum seem to develop that trait while being on AD's or after stopping. Luckily I've not had that symptom - and I pray it continues.

 

Karen

[AliG]

 Yay Karen,

 

So glad to hear that !!      You need to be a slow " turtle" or " snail" , if that's what you prefer !!  LOL.   

 

Hugs, 

 

Ali.

[Fresh]

WOAH NELLIE . . . I meant a month from today , not from when you reinstated.

 

It may be longer , that's not an academic decision you should make now.

As Ali said , throw the calender away.

 

I believe the ideal is to wait until you are having NO withdrawal symptoms any more ,

(i.e. stabilize)  then wait another few weeks for your brain to strengthen in it's new

functioning.  

You may or may not still be having symptoms in a month , and if you are then

beginning to taper is silly.  You'll just have to wait and see.

 

Remember that it's not just the trazodone w/d you're recovering from.  The phentermine

you took for years is an amphetamine , so you're dealing with that too.