Raphael: Getting off sporadic Valium and short term Prozac

[Raphael]

ADMIN NOTE Also see posts from Raphael's spouse Terry husband-getting-off-sporadic-prozac-and-valium

 

Link to Raphael's benzo topic

 

---

 

I had emergency surgery in February and a couple of follow-up surgeries/anesthesias. I was hospitalized a total of 4 weeks and spent about 10 days in transitional care. I have OCD (the obsessive type) and experienced much anxiety while hospitalized and to the present day. I had a prescription for valium for OCD, which I took only rarely until this situation arose. Since I left the hospital I have taken valium sometimes every day, sometimes every few days, or even up to 13 days apart. My primary care doctor gave me a prescription for Prozac which I took for 10 days and then stopped because of bad side effects. I had so many drugs while hospitalized, for pain, for sleep, and for anxiety. I was given antibiotics also to fight infection in the surgical wound.

I've been seeing a psychologist who believes I have medical PTSD, and thinks I should see a psychiatrist who will prescribe medication. Because I have heard what these kinds of meds do to the brain, my wife is trying to convince me not to start any new psych meds. However, when the anxiety gets too bad I turn to valium, and I wonder if I am either now dependant or will become dependant on it. I don't know which way to turn for help and I'm hoping someone here will be able to offer advice.

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by ChessieCat
Added admin note/CC link to benzo topic

[mammaP]

Hi Raphael, welcome to SA.  I think I can safely say that you are now dependent on valium.  you need to take it regularly to stabilise. When it is taken on and off it results in rebound anxiety. You take it for anxiety and it eases a little but then it causes anxiety. Trying to do without because of the fear of becoming addicted leads to withdrawal.  I think your wife is right to be wary, psychiatrists prescribe drugs, that is their job.  I am sure that if you take the benzo regularly you will start to feel much better and can then start to taper off when you are stable.  I can imagine how it was in the hopital, I have had several surgeries myself with all the trauma and drugs.   

 

It will be good if you fill in your signature for us, with your drug and tapering history, of the valium and prozac plus any others you may have taken in the past. 

You can find instructions here... https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/18343-please-put-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature/?do=getNewComment

 

 

This is your introduction to update when you make any changes or if you have any questions. You also need to start a topic in the benzo section, where you will be given specific advice about the valium and the best way to take it so that you can feel better. Don't worry about taking it, you will be ok and can taoer off when you have stabilised.   Here is the link, I will tell them you will be posting there and they will support you. 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/forum/29-benzo-tapering-and-recovery/

[Altostrata]

Welcome, Raphael.

 

Have you seen a therapist for health anxiety? This can be managed with Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) rather than drugs. Learning to meditate can be very helpful, too.

 

I agree with mammaP, rebound anxiety from Valium may be exacerbating your symptoms.

[Raphael]

7 hours ago, mammaP said:

I think I can safely say that you are now dependent on valium.  you need to take it regularly to stabilise

Because my doses have been sporadic and the amounts irregular, I don't have any idea what amount  or how often to take it  to stabilize.  The pills I have are 5 mg.

[mammaP]

Raphael, your spouse has told us that you have kept a journal, could you get the doses from there and post them here for us?  If you look through it you will find how often you have taken the valium and start/stop dates for prozac. It really is important, it will tell us how to help you space your doses so you can feel better.

 

Quote:   I had him start a journal back when he first got out of the hospital, writing what meds he took and what symptoms he was experiencing. That would be nearly 4 months worth of notes, so I doubt you would want that much data.  

•  

Edited August 5, 2018 by mammaP
added quote

[Raphael]

MammaP ---- My signature was posted last night.  Are you unable to view it?

[mammaP]

Thank you Raphael, I will ask the benzo mods to take a look. 

[Shep]

Hi, Raphael. 

 

Welcome to SA from me, too.

 

On 8/4/2018 at 7:42 PM, Raphael said:

Because my doses have been sporadic and the amounts irregular, I don't have any idea what amount  or how often to take it  to stabilize.  The pills I have are 5 mg.

 

Valium has a half-life of up to 200 hours (8 days), so it's possible to become dependent on Valium even taking it as little as once a week. 

 

I checked your signature and the majority of the Valium doses have been within an 8 day time period. So you've had some amount of Valium in your bloodstream since you started taking it in April. 

 

Some questions:

• Were you on any psychiatric drugs prior to 2018? If so, please list them. 
• Are you completely off of Prozac and Sertraline now?
• Is periodic Valium the only drug you are currently taking? 
• How many hours a night are you sleeping? Do you taking any drug or supplements to help with sleep? If so, please list them. 

As we know more about your history and how you are currently feeling, we will better be able to guide you. 

[Raphael]

1 hour ago, Shep said:

Hi, Raphael. 

 

Welcome to SA from me, too.

 

 

Valium has a half-life of up to 200 hours (8 days), so it's possible to become dependent on Valium even taking it as little as once a week. 

 

I checked your signature and the majority of the Valium doses have been within an 8 day time period. So you've had some amount of Valium in your bloodstream since you started taking it in April. 

 

Some questions:

• Were you on any psychiatric drugs prior to 2018? If so, please list them. 
• Are you completely off of Prozac and Sertraline now?
• Is periodic Valium the only drug you are currently taking? 
• How many hours a night are you sleeping? Do you taking any drug or supplements to help with sleep? If so, please list them. 

As we know more about your history and how you are currently feeling, we will better be able to guide you. 

I was on Prozac about 20 years ago for -just a guess--4 months---  I then took it for 10 days from about July 15 to July 25, 2018.   I'm off Prozac because I had some bad dreams.  During my 40-day hospital stay I had  ativan--not every day--and sequel twice for sleep.  I also had pain-killers and 4 anesthesias during 4 surgeries.   I now have taken Sertraline 50 mgs. for 4 days starting Fri., Aug. 3, 2018.  My last Valium was 10 mgs. on late Friday night Aug. 3.   I have slept well the last two nights, but before that had two near sleepless nights--one of 4 hours and one of 30 minutes: out of 5 nights.   I take no extra supplements for sleep except Melatonin  (took only 4 nights about a week ago--which doesn't seem to help.)

[Shep]

22 hours ago, Raphael said:

I was on Prozac about 20 years ago for -just a guess--4 months---  I then took it for 10 days from about July 15 to July 25, 2018.   I'm off Prozac because I had some bad dreams.  During my 40-day hospital stay I had  ativan--not every day--and sequel twice for sleep.  I also had pain-killers and 4 anesthesias during 4 surgeries.   I now have taken Sertraline 50 mgs. for 4 days starting Fri., Aug. 3, 2018.  My last Valium was 10 mgs. on late Friday night Aug. 3.   I have slept well the last two nights, but before that had two near sleepless nights--one of 4 hours and one of 30 minutes: out of 5 nights.   I take no extra supplements for sleep except Melatonin  (took only 4 nights about a week ago--which doesn't seem to help.)

 

Thanks for the additional information, Raphael.

 

Why are you starting the Sertraline? With such little use of an antidepressant prior to now, I would not advise going on an antidepressant. Please see:

 

Again, chemical imbalance is a myth. Stop the lies, please.

 

Now Antidepressant-Induced Chronic Depression Has a Name: Tardive Dysphoria

 

In this article on Prozac from 1999, the journalist at The Guardian writes:

 

Quote

The minutes further state that "in future studies the use of benzodiazepines to control the agitation will be permitted". So, from that point on, Lilly's trial subjects would be put on tranquilizers to get them over the akathisia experienced by some in the early days on the drug. Yet once Prozac was on the market, there was no warning to doctors that such action might be necessary. Source - They said it was safe

 

So decades ago it was known that SSRIs could induce severe anxiety, even akathisia, and in the drug trials, they had to use benzos to calm down the people in the research trials. 

 

I would be very hesitant to bring in a SSRI while you are battling anxiety. 

 

Since you are sleeping well without the Valium, do you feel you may not be dependent on it? 

 

You're playing with fire bringing in a SSRI while you are trying to come off a benzo. And with so many other drugs and drug withdrawals over this past year related to your surgery, I would hate to see you get caught on the SSRI/benzo trap. 

 

Please let us know your thoughts on this.

[Raphael]

A pharmacist I spoke to yesterday after I told her that I had taken about 20 5mg. Valiums over the last 4 months, she said she didn't think I was dependent on it because of the smallish amount.  I feel that it is the zoloft that is helping me sleep much better.  It seems to be calming down my over-active brain somewhat, too, after taking it for 5 days.  My therapist, after I told her my wife was against the zoloft, the therapist said, "Why are you so afraid of drugs?"   I told her my wife is an extremely smart person, and I value her opinion.   Another health professional told me he thinks I have "Medical PTSD."  I really needed some help, and zoloft seems to be going that way.  I thank you very much for your response.

[Surfchick]

hi Raphael, I hear you. but zoloft does not work in 5 days...it's not like a benzo. I hope you consider discontinuing the zoloft.. I wish i had someone to tell me that....

[Shep]

16 hours ago, Raphael said:

I feel that it is the zoloft that is helping me sleep much better.  It seems to be calming down my over-active brain somewhat, too, after taking it for 5 days.

 

16 hours ago, Surfchick said:

hi Raphael, I hear you. but zoloft does not work in 5 days...it's not like a benzo.

 

Raphael, Surfchick is 100% correct - Zoloft does not work in 5 days. SSRIs generally come with the disclaimer that it takes a month. 

 

What you likely are getting is a placebo effect. Dr. Irving Kirsch, a researcher at Harvard, has written and talked extensively about the fact that antidepressants do not work better than an active placebo. The below link is to a video where he's speaking about his book The Emperor's New Drugs: Exploding the Antidepressant Myth:

 

Dr. Irving Kirsch - The Emperor's New Drugs: Exploding the Antidressant Myth video (1 hour, 17 minutes)

 

16 hours ago, Raphael said:

My therapist, after I told her my wife was against the zoloft, the therapist said, "Why are you so afraid of drugs?" 

 

You may want to show your therapist this recent article from the New York Times:

 

Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

 

And there are two recent articles in Psychiatric Times, a trade journal for psychiatrists, that speak to the difficulty of withdrawal:

 

Antidepressant Withdrawal, Online Data, and a Bottom Line

 

Online Communities for Drug Withdrawal: What Can We Learn?

 

There are many non-drug ways for coping with depression, anxiety, and other emotional issues such as mindfulness, CBT, music therapy, art therapy, etc. that are proven to not only be more effective, but they come without side effects. 

 

Therapists who are pro-drug are the kinds of therapists who are really bad at their job. You may want to seek out a therapist who is more informed. This is a great provider directory that includes providers who are aware of the dangers of these drugs and are likely to know about effective alternatives. Place your city or state in the search box and a list will be provided:

 

MiA - Provider Directory

Edited August 8, 2018 by Shep
fixed typo

[mammaP]

You have choices Raphael, we are here primarily to help people to get OFF psychiatric drugs safely and with as little discomfort as possible.  Most of us here have been harmed by them and suffering for years because we did the very thing that you are doing now and trusted the medical profession. If you see drugs as the way forward for you then maybe we are not the place that is going to help. It literally makes me want to cry that you are now on a path that will see you dependent on zoloft , and combined with the benzo you will likely be in for a rough ride. It is a bit like a forum for recovering drug addicts seeing a new member who is starting to use heroin because it helps with pain/sleep/stress etc.  The sad thing is that heroin is easier to quit than SSRIs. 

Please read the links that Shep has left for you, and listen to your wife, she knows you well,loves you  and is concerned for you.

 

[Altostrata]

On 8/7/2018 at 12:15 PM, Raphael said:

A pharmacist I spoke to yesterday after I told her that I had taken about 20 5mg. Valiums over the last 4 months, she said she didn't think I was dependent on it because of the smallish amount.  I feel that it is the zoloft that is helping me sleep much better.  It seems to be calming down my over-active brain somewhat, too, after taking it for 5 days.  My therapist, after I told her my wife was against the zoloft, the therapist said, "Why are you so afraid of drugs?"   I told her my wife is an extremely smart person, and I value her opinion.   Another health professional told me he thinks I have "Medical PTSD."  I really needed some help, and zoloft seems to be going that way.  I thank you very much for your response.

 

Raphael -- Valium has a very long half-life, while you perhaps took it a handful of times, you were on it for much longer than you know. Your nervous system can become dependent on it with short, irregular use.

 

Benzos have additionals adverse effects: If you've become even slightly dependent on them, when they wear off, you can get rebound anxiety or panic when they wear off. If you've been taking Valium inconsistently, this can happen at random times.

 

If your nervous system has gotten sensitized by going on and off drugs, taking a benzo when you have anxiety or panic can cause a paradoxical reaction -- instead of being calming, the benzo makes the anxiety or panic worse.

 

After you're off the benzo for a while, the withdrawal symptoms may die down, especially if your dependency was not long-term. If you're not taking the benzo, of course you would not get paradoxical reactions, either.

 

This is why we've tried to get your benzo history from you.

 

Because it's highly likely you were suffering adverse effects from Valium, you probably are now taking 50mg sertraline for no good reason. However, if you believe you need it, that could be enough for you.

 

If you take it long-term, you will need to taper it to go off.

[Raphael]

Dear Altostrata,

   I thank you for your submission.  I think it is very good.   My wife entered my benzo history, which basically is 23 of the 5mg. Valiums, taken sporadically as you mentioned since April 3rd of this year.  On April 1st I got out of the hospital after being in for 40 days, and given many pain killers and other drugs.  Starting April 3rd sometimes I took 1/4 of a tablet up to two Valiums in a more panic situation.  I believe you when you say my nervous system has been sensitized by the going on and off.  My questions is if I am dependent on Valium (a pharmacist I go to told me she doubted I was, but I am having intermittent experiences you mention.)  Assuming you are correct, how do  take it, and how much daily to stabilize?  And for how long? And then tapering down 10% after that?  I had a crisis yesterday with anxiety.  (that was my 6th day on the Sertraline) Slept 5 1/2 hours, woke up,  felt more anxiety, and chose to take 5 mgs. of Valium to sleep a bit more.   I am confused by this whole thing.  My wife and I feel with the four anesthesias in the hospital, and all the drugs, that this started this syndrome.  I have had OCD for 50 years, but have been able to cope with it.   Please continue your communication.  I sincerely appreciate it.  I'm seeing my local therapist tomorrow and will convey your words to her.

[Altostrata]

Raphael, you've decided to take the route of adding Zoloft. It could be you are having an adverse reaction to Zoloft or a paradoxical or rebound reaction to the occasional Valium.

 

We can't tell where your symptoms are coming from without a daily symptom and drug pattern.

 

You should understand that interpreting this is a lot of work for us. Our mission is to help people go off drugs, not to help people get comfortable on a cocktail that we've warned them not to take. If that's what you intend, you should consult your doctor, he gets paid to get you on drugs, we don't.

[Terry]

I really tried to keep him from starting an AD, but he did OK many years ago with Prozac, and i think he's hoping an AD will help him.  I think it may be the Valium that's causing his problem, and when he's feeling really anxious he resorts to taking it again.  There again, I tried to convince him earlier on to stop taking them, but he seemed to feel a need to reach for a pill for relief.  He exercises every day, uses positive readings and music to calm himself, which is good.  I only wish it was enough to keep him drug-free.  

 

I can't be critical of him because just a year ago, In my desperation, I let myself be prescribed an AD and benzo.  I'm tapering pretty well off the AD, though I'm not feeling great.  But I'm sure I'll make it if I'm just patient enough.  

[Altostrata]

Thanks, Terry. Sometimes people have to make mistakes to find their own ways.

[Terry]

Raphael has been taking 50 mg. sertraline for 2 weeks now and experiencing problems with anxiety, nervousness, and insomnia.  If I could convince him to stop taking it, would he need to taper at this point or could he just stop?  If he continues much longer he will need to taper if he intends to quit altogether.  He is starting CBT next week with a psychologist who specializes in OCD.  

[Altostrata]

He can reduce it by 25% every few days, just to be sure to go off somewhat gradually.

 

We really need Raphael to participate so he can accurately report symptoms if he has them.

[Terry]

Thanks, Alto.  If I could get him off sertraline (and I'm really not sure that I can), then we're looking at dealing with the valium.  My guess would be that he takes a regular dose every day until he feels stable and then tapers off.

 

I wish he would participate here himself, but he seems to want me to do all this for him. (Sigh)  He doesn't like dealing with something like this when he is feeling so awful.  Then too, I think he is just so confused - doctors, pharmacists, therapists all indicating that sertraline is fine to take, that it's helpful for OCD, and then I'm telling him the opposite.  I keep telling him they're all following the party line, which was sold to them by Big Pharma.

 

[Terry]

On 8/4/2018 at 10:57 AM, mammaP said:

Hi Raphael, welcome to SA.  I think I can safely say that you are now dependent on valium.  you need to take it regularly to stabilise. When it is taken on and off it results in rebound anxiety. You take it for anxiety and it eases a little but then it causes anxiety. Trying to do without because of the fear of becoming addicted leads to withdrawal. 

Since his doses of valium have been so sporadic, how would he begin to know what dose to take to stabilize?  He is struggling so much with terrible insomnia, nervousness, and anxiety.  He is starting CBT with a therapist this week, and I'm trying to get him to stop sertraline according to Alto's advice.

[Raphael]

On 8/10/2018 at 4:47 PM, Altostrata said:

Raphael, you've decided to take the route of adding Zoloft. It could be you are having an adverse reaction to Zoloft or a paradoxical or rebound reaction to the occasional Valium.

 

We can't tell where your symptoms are coming from without a daily symptom and drug pattern.

 

You should understand that interpreting this is a lot of work for us. Our mission is to help people go off drugs, not to help people get comfortable on a cocktail that we've warned them not to take. If that's what you intend, you should consult your doctor, he gets paid to get you on drugs, we don't.

Dear Altostrata:

I have decided to quit Zoloft.  I have cut the prescribed dose in half for 3 days, and will cut it again in half for 3 more days, then stop taking it.  I met today with a Dr. who has prescribed 2 mgs. of daily Valium for two to four weeks.  I will report my progress to her weekly.  I then plan to cut the dosage by 10% (using liquid form when needed.)    I have also started cognitive therapy for my OCD, and am looking into acupuncture  to help that and sleep.   

 

Does 2 mg. sound like an appropriate dosage at this point?  Am I allowing enough time to stabilize?  Thank you very much.

[Altostrata]

On 8/17/2018 at 4:13 PM, Altostrata said:

He can reduce it by 25% every few days, just to be sure to go off somewhat gradually.

 

We really need Raphael to participate so he can accurately report symptoms if he has them.

 

21 hours ago, Raphael said:

Dear Altostrata:

I have decided to quit Zoloft.  I have cut the prescribed dose in half for 3 days, and will cut it again in half for 3 more days, then stop taking it.  I met today with a Dr. who has prescribed 2 mgs. of daily Valium for two to four weeks.  I will report my progress to her weekly.  I then plan to cut the dosage by 10% (using liquid form when needed.)    I have also started cognitive therapy for my OCD, and am looking into acupuncture  to help that and sleep.   

 

Does 2 mg. sound like an appropriate dosage at this point?  Am I allowing enough time to stabilize?  Thank you very much.

 

Raphael, it's not a good idea to change 2 drugs at once. If you reduce Zoloft and add Valium at the same time, if you get a bad reaction, we won't know where it's coming from.

 

Strongly recommend you change Zoloft first, then make changes in your benzo intake.

 

We still need your daily drug schedule and symptom pattern to be able to help you. Please keep daily notes and post this information as you reduce Zoloft.

[Raphael]

Dear Altostrata,

Today is my last day of Zoloft, 12.5 mgs.  I was on that drug for 17 days at 50 mgs.   So, with my wife's help,  in these six days I hope I can be off it.   My mind seems to be a little too active (which is the only thing Zoloft helped with), but I am hoping the cognitive therapy and acupuncture will help with my OCD. (very active, disturbing thoughts etc.)

I have taken 2.5 mgs of Valium before going to bed the last two nights, and have slept well.   And my plan is to take the 2 mg pills the Dr. recommended for two to four weeks, and as I said I will report symptoms to her and to you folks, too.  In what format should I post my symptom pattern?  Thank you for your continued advice.

 

[Raphael]

On 8/22/2018 at 2:14 PM, Altostrata said:

We still need your daily drug schedule and symptom pattern to be able to help you. Please keep daily notes and post this information as you reduce Zoloft.

Aug 21  Slept 7 hrs

              7AM - sertraline - 12.5 mg.

              Met cognitive therapist - caused some anxiety

              Met with new doctor (associate of PCP) - calming effect

             10 PM - 2.5 mg valium

Aug 22  Slept 7 hrs

              Awoke very calm

              7AM sertraline - 12.5 mg.

              10 PM - 2.5 mg valium

Aug 23  Slept well

               7AM sertraline - 12.5 (last dose)

               Awoke nervous, stayed that way for half day.

              Walked approx. 2 miles

              10PM - 2.0 mg valium

Aug 24  Good night's sleep, awoke very calm

               Had German Auricular Acupuncture for 1st time, impressed with testing and care

              10PM - 2.0 mg valium

Aug 25  Slept well, awoke feeling "unsettled". 

              12 Noon - 10 drops trace minerals

              10PM - 2 mg valium, 10 drops Para-Chord homeopathic remedy

              

Let me know if more days results are needed.

 

              

[Altostrata]

So far, so good. Thanks.

[Raphael]

I'm posting now on the benzo forum.

[India]

I can't find the quote but someone said getting off heroin or easier than getting off ssri's. I have two friends who went to rehab for a cocktail of drugs both echoed exactly this. They said that heroin withdrawal is less psychological than ssri's and much less prolonged. Plus with subutex it's a walk in the park. Personally i have never experienced something so prolonged and horrific in all my life and I'm just on citalopram. It's the incessant nature of it, the unknowns and the protracted nature of the ssri withdrawal. Never felt anxiety and insanity  like it!! Be warned.