Older female issues: perimenopause, menopause, and withdrawal

[Junglechicken]

11 hours ago, Junglechicken said:

So it's out!

 

Since Wednesday, Ive developed pain under my left arm pit.

 

I know, lymph nodes are located there, and I haven't felt any lumps (breast cancer scare).

 

Could also be referred pain from gut pain on my left side.   Oh, so many options 🤔

 

Have to weigh up how long to wait before getting checked.

 

Hopefully, it'll have disappeared before too long.

 

 

 

I let my HA get the better of me.

 

Thought long and hard about a possible cause, and remembered I had cleaned the house on Tuesday, and the pain started up on Wednesday.  Also, I had been up into the attic which is always awkward.

 

Anyway, if it doesn't go away after a week or more, I'll get it checked.

 

I didn't feel any lumps or bumps there, and didn't see anything out of the ordinary either.

 

[thecowisback]

i had this last week, and sore patches in my boobs too like bruising. it's gone this week but i hadn't been taking my evening primrose oil regularly and now i am. could be a coincidence but i'm sure it works. 

[Junglechicken]

11 hours ago, thecowisback said:

i had this last week, and sore patches in my boobs too like bruising. it's gone this week but i hadn't been taking my evening primrose oil regularly and now i am. could be a coincidence but i'm sure it works. 

 

There is no history of breast cancer in my family.  My aunt had it, but apparently that isn't an issue (genetically), according to the GP I saw at the time.

 

My "hit list" in no particular order is:

 

1) get rid of the post nasal drip (horrible)

2) sort out gut (reflux, IBS)

3) lose weight

4) get stronger and more flexible

 

All 4 are a challenge!  I'll have to try the evening primrose......

 

Still no word from my naturopath, not sure whether she's ok or not.

[thecowisback]

good luck!!!!

[Junglechicken]

7 hours ago, thecowisback said:

good luck!!!!

 

LOL, thanks!!!!!

[Junglechicken]

Hi Ladies,

 

Some further useful information on perimenopause symptoms:

 

https://indigonaturals.net/blogs/news/how-to-survive-perimenopause-hell-why-is-it-so-hard-for-some-women

 

It has certainly opened my eyes, that not everything is down to WD!

 

Take care,

 

JC

[LostRunner]

Hello, 

 

I am 30 years old and took Citalopram for 7 days in February this year. I had an adverse reaction to it and I'm still trying to recover 3 months on. Previous to taking the drug I have never had a problem with my periods and have always been regular like clockwork since they first began. Now I have only had 2 periods since stopping which have been 8 weeks apart and have lasted 1-2 days each. I have also experienced a lot of brown discharge which I never had before.

 

Obviously given my history this is not normal for me at all and to me it sounds like I may be suddenly pre-menopausal! I feel like my skin on my neck has changed consistency as well and seems saggy and not like It used to be even 3 months ago. 

 

Are there cases of these drugs causing Pre-menopause after such short term use? Would appreciate any knowledge anyone has on the subject and any similar experiences of this. 

[gardenlady]

Has anyone here tapered her HRT concurrently with an AD?  I'd like to hear of experiences and learn from those who have done so.  I am on the lowest dose available of estrogen and progesterone (oral tablets) and need to be off of them in 2 years.  I still have about 1 or so years left in my Cymbalta taper which has been a nightmare, despite going slowly.  Since it may take a year or more to taper the HRT, I need to decide whether to start now during my Cymbalta taper or wait until I've completed it.  My withdrawal symptoms are so severe that I doubt they will be better at the end of my taper....and may very well get worse once I'm off as happens to so many.  Thus, the dilemma.  I've been on HRT for 20 years and am 67.  I'm really scared about combining the Cymbalta withdrawal with HRT withdrawal, but I have no choice it appears. I've found menopausal forums to be of no help on this topic, thus, I'm asking here. 

[Jav1]

Hi @Altostrata I am on bioidentical progesterone and DHEA capsules as prescribed by my functional doctor. I am in acute withdrawal now. Will I have to taper the progesterone and DHEA and will these cause withdrawal? I have read progesterone acts on GABA. i started progesterone on feb 23 and developed tinnitus on mar 2 (7 days after starting) , week 10 of my withdrawal!!! Could this have caused the T since progesterone acts on GABA?? TIA. 

[ChessieCat]

SA is a site for tapering/withdrawal of psychiatric drugs.  We do not counsel about how to taper hormones.

 

I suggest that you speak to the doctor who prescribed the capsules.

 

You may be able to find online facebook groups, forums, support groups which may be able to assist.

 

Some of the search terms you could try:  progesterone, hormone, menopause.

[Altostrata]

15 hours ago, Jav1 said:

i started progesterone on feb 23 and developed tinnitus on mar 2 (7 days after starting) , week 10 of my withdrawal!!! Could this have caused the T since progesterone acts on GABA?? TIA. 

 

If you got an adverse reaction shortly after starting a drug, it's likely the drug caused it. Progesterone has a long half-life and might ramp up to full effect over a week. You might Google to find adverse effects of progesterone.

 

Suggest you speak to your doctor about adverse effects of your bioidentical hormones, that's why you're paying that person. 

 

If you've started these hormones only since February, you might go off them with a relatively rapid taper of 25% per week. Please consult with your doctor or an Internet group dealing with supplemental hormones about details. We do not support such tapers here.

[Kat66]

Anyone else dealing with menopause in addition to WD? How are you coping? I find one of my biggest issues is loss of a sense of identity. I literally don’t know who I am any more, and I’m sure that’s a combination of WD and menopause. Another one is irritability and anger, which are symptoms shared by both conditions. I wish I’d not started this journey slap bang in the middle of menopause!

[Believer]

Hi @Kat66

Yep, I started tapering in perimenopause and have been post menopause for about 3 years now. Agreed, many of the symptoms are the same but I think w/d makes them off the charts. Have you tried an HRT?

[Kat66]

On 8/22/2022 at 7:24 PM, Believer said:

w/d makes them off the charts. Have you tried an HRT?

Does it ever!!!

 

I am on a combined HRT but I'm not sure it's doing any good. I asked my doctor if I could change to another brand/type but she said it's unwise while I am tapering off citalopram. I know there are loads of different types out there, one of which could really help me but apparently I'm not supposed to change drugs while I'm coming off my AD. Are you on HRT?

[Believer]

@Kat66

No, HRT is contraindicated for me because I have a hemangioma on my liver, which was found on one of my w/d symptom scans, so there’s a silver lining. 
 

With all of the symptoms of w/d, I think it may be difficult to determine if an HRT was helping or not. I’ve read that they help some and not others. I have a friend who changes hers up ever few months trying to find symptom relief. I personally wouldn’t try one out in the middle of withdrawal if I could. Just another drug thrown in the mix. And with w/d symptoms being so irregular and transitory I wouldn’t know what was what. At least I know what I’m dealing with right now. 
 

Its interesting you’re doc doesn’t want to change yours, is she withdrawal savvy?

 

[Kat66]

22 hours ago, Believer said:

is she withdrawal savvy?

 

Is she heck! What doctor is? She only said that after I explained to her I am tapering off citalopram so I suppose at least she took the fact I was tapering into account before slapping me on another drug. But yes you're right a change would just mean another drug which probably wouldn't be wise.

I've come to the conclusion my symptoms are a horrible mix of WD and menopause and the only way to get through either condition is just to put my head down and push through.

 

What are your menopause symptoms ( if you can identify them that is)

[Believer]

36 minutes ago, Kat66 said:

What doctor is?

None that I have met…. The last visit I had with my primary doctor, after I learned I was experiencing W/D, was starting to come around, he was at least open to it. Then he retired. None of the younger ones I see now even consider it. One diagnosed me with anxiety, the other, with a carcinoid tumor. It sounds like your doc may be getting schooled by you?

I have come to the same conclusion. Hot flashes, night sweats, anxiety, irritability, dizziness, blah, blah, blah. All symptoms of w/d and menopause. Mostly withdrawal. Those on the forum not in menopause complain of the same things. Even the men. W/d just makes it far worse.

 

Yep, head down and keep going. It does help me to compare notes with you and others though. It really is a lonely, scary place to be.

[Kat66]

It's the loneliest. But the lovely people on here (like you!) make it slightly less so. I know I'll come through this experience but in what shape I just don't know. I hope it doesn't change me completely but sometimes I feel like a husk of who I was. I haven't smiled or laughed in months, perhaps the odd polite chuckle or fake half smile but nothing real.

 

I am schooling my doctor. All she wanted to do was put me on a mood stabiliser or try another AD. When I told her I was on 1.25mg (or whichever small dose I was on at the time) she had no clue that was a thing and I had to explain how I dissolved tablets in water and used a syringe yadda yadda yadda. 

 

We really are warriors going through this aren't we!

[EttaLouWho]

I have been experiencing perimenopause/menopause and withdrawal too. I feel so lonely because I’m 42 and going through this and no one I know in my age group is dealing with menopause yet, much less protracted AD withdrawal. I just woke up drenched from night sweats.  I have been experiencing perimenopause for a few years but have been on birth control per my doctor’s recommendation so it’s hard to know if I have progressed into menopause. All of the symptoms of withdrawal and menopause coincide so it’s like the perfect storm.  I too wonder what shape I will be in when I make it out of this. It’s a very scary feeling. 

[Kat66]

Hi @EttaLouWho you're not alone in this - it may feel like it but I reckon there must be a heck of a lot of us going through menopause +WD. Reading your signature, you've been through a hell of a lot and are still on a lot of things. What sort of things do you do to nurture yourself? I think that's what we have to do during this awful time, be very gentle and kind to ourselves - we are going through so much! What symptoms are you dealing with?

[EttaLouWho]

Hi @Kat66  I am trying my best to eat healthy, listen to some soft comforting music, and spend time with my animals. I work full time in a stressful healthcare position but I thankfully transitioned to working permanently from home or I would’ve lost my job. Working is so hard right now and I feel sick all the time. 
 

My main symptoms are severe anxiety, panic attacks, obsessive thoughts, nausea, tachycardia/heart palpitations, full body tremors and insomnia. I have also started having drenching night sweats. 
 

I am still on 200mg of gabapentin and 45 mg of buspirone a day and am worried I will never be able to get off of them and will feel like this forever. I guess that is everyone’s worry though. How are you doing now?

[Kat66]

Hi @EttaLouWho I'm taking it hour by hour, like you I have severe anxiety which sometimes ends up causing massive dizzy spells. I get the sick feeling too, not as bad as you but I think the anxiety sometimes gets so bad I just feel sick! I get insomnia too, I have some tools that sometimes help; a sleepmask, earplugs, and listening to a hypnosis/calm soundscapes/meditation. Doesn't always work perfectly but they help. You're doing all the right things - isn't it infuriating that we're doing all the right things and we still feel like ****?!! Yes it is a worry that we'll feel like this forever (but loads of people on here tell us otherwise) - how long have you been in WD and/or menopause?

[EttaLouWho]

Yes, it is super infuriating! I have recently really cleaned up my diet as well because I’m thinking withdrawal has precipitated reactive hypoglycemia. I’m not sure if that’s possible but I looked on here and it seems I’m not the only one dealing with this issue. Honestly if it just makes me feel any bit better, I’m willing to do it. Food pretty much disgusts me anyway these days and I feel like I’m having to force myself to choke it down. Are you having any issues like this?

 

I think I have been in perimenopause for at least three or four years now but my symptoms have gotten worse. I am on birth control so it’s hard to say if I have transitioned into menopause itself or not because the hormones ensure I’m still having a period. My doctor doesn’t want to take me off of them because drying out from the hormones in combination with the withdrawal could be disastrous.  I would have to go on some sort of hormone replacement anyway seeing as how I’m too young to be without estrogen. This in and of itself has been incredibly painful and emotional to deal with.  
 

I have been in withdrawal from ADs since December 2021 but I went through withdrawal from benzos earlier the same year. When I look back on it, I actually think I have been going through withdrawal for a couple of years—probably since about 2019 when I tried to come off Cymbalta after being on it for over fifteen years.  I didn’t realize what was happening at the time, just the intense rage was so bad I had to reinstate. My antidepressant was changed four times after that—three times in one year plus ketamine infusions and neurofeedback—because the doctors just thought my depression was getting worse. They always weaned me and switched me to new drugs over a few weeks period and I think now that my brain was just so kindled from the constant changes that it seemed like my depression and OCD etc were getting worse but I was actually in very intense withdrawal. I regret agreeing to the buspar and the gabapentin to help with withdrawal symptoms because now I need to deal with tapering from them as well. I just wanted to get better and would’ve done anything they told me to. It’s really hard not to feel bitter and resentful toward the entire medical community after all of this.
 

Do you feel the same? What do you do to handle your anxiety when it is bad? Are you currently working? Do you have supportive people around to help you? 

[Kat66]

I do feel resentful towards the medical community for foisting these meds on people without informed consent about what REALLY happens when you want to come off them. I never had any kind of reminder from the doctor to check how I was getting on with my meds, it was left to me to make the appointments; it was left to me to just keep renewing the RX. Yes it sounds like on top of your peri symptoms your different psych meds changing frequently have done a number on your system. Do you think the intense rage you experienced (which is one of my main symptoms currently btw) was down to both peri and cymbalta? Can you tell me a bit more about why the birth control/HRT issue has been so painful emotionally for you? I just want to understand more.

 

I don't have any issues with food. It's the one area left untouched by WD. I'm grateful for this as it seems a lot of people on here have food issues. It's good that you've cleaned up your diet - it can't do any harm. WD triggering hypoglycemia sounds like a hard thing to deal with. Just another thing to deal with on top of all the other ****

 

When my anxiety is bad I exist from hour to hour, deep breathing helps, as does listening to white noise or ASMR, curling up on the sofa with some comfort TV (currently Desperate Housewives), and being on my own in silence. Doing body scans helps too. I am currently working part time in a low stress job which is a positive and I have supportive family and friends. I am lucky I guess. How about you?

[EttaLouWho]

Hi @Kat66 I think the intense rage was definitely from the withdrawal at least for me. I find I have a very short fuse now and can snap very quickly if provoked (or even not provoked) and that may be down to a combination of the hormones and the protracted withdrawal. It’s different than the rage though. The rage always made me feel like I was just on the brink of really losing it and being so intensely angry that you wouldn’t even care who you hurt. It terrified me. That has settled down for me right now thank God. 
 

The perimenopause/menopause has been really painful emotionally because I always wanted to have children and it just never happened for me. Starting menopause this early has been a huge slap in the face that it will never happen which given all I’m going through with withdrawal I guess is for the best. It’s no environment to bring a child into but it’s been personally devastating. Also all of the health risks that come with an early menopause and the treatment for it just feel overwhelming in the face of everything else. 

 

I’m glad to hear that you have supportive friends and family and a job that doesn’t cause too much stress. My friends think I should be over withdrawal by now and have stopped calling or even asking how I am. My family is no help either and I moved to a new city right before Covid hit so I am pretty isolated here. 
 

The anxiety, fear, and ruminating intrusive thoughts feel so overwhelming and paralyzing. I feel like I can barely move or function when they come which for now is every morning and they last for hours. 
sounds like we have similar coping strategies though.  I wish there was something that would just make this all stop for all of us.
 

How long have you been in withdrawal? Are you having your citalopram compounded or are you measuring and reducing the medicine yourself?

[Kat66]

On 9/3/2022 at 7:59 PM, EttaLouWho said:

Hi @Kat66 I think the intense rage was definitely from the withdrawal at least for me. I find I have a very short fuse now and can snap very quickly if provoked (or even not provoked) and that may be down to a combination of the hormones and the protracted withdrawal. It’s different than the rage though. The rage always made me feel like I was just on the brink of really losing it and being so intensely angry that you wouldn’t even care who you hurt. It terrified me. That has settled down for me right now thank God. 

I went through the exact same thing with the rage - it felt so out of control it scared me. I worried I might end up hurting someone and getting arrested. I'd throw stuff around the kitchen and just not care. And it was always literally just below the surface. I still don't care to a great extent when I'm in that place but like you, it's a case of having a very very short fuse these days, getting super annoyed at EVERYONE for the slightest thing; people making stupid driving mistakes, that kind of thing. I wish I had a way of dealing with it but it seems to fester for a while after the anger causing 'incident', then fade of it's own accord. 

 

On 9/3/2022 at 7:59 PM, EttaLouWho said:

The perimenopause/menopause has been really painful emotionally because I always wanted to have children and it just never happened for me. Starting menopause this early has been a huge slap in the face that it will never happen which given all I’m going through with withdrawal I guess is for the best. It’s no environment to bring a child into but it’s been personally devastating. Also all of the health risks that come with an early menopause and the treatment for it just feel overwhelming in the face of everything else. 

I'm so sorry, that must be really hard for you. I hope you can find a way to find acceptance with this. 

 

On 9/3/2022 at 7:59 PM, EttaLouWho said:

My friends think I should be over withdrawal by now and have stopped calling or even asking how I am. My family is no help either and I moved to a new city right before Covid hit so I am pretty isolated here. 

I find it's impossible to find people who 'get it' unless they themselves have been through it. It's difficult for people to grasp just how long WD takes. I'm always having to re-explain what's going on as people forget what you've told them and just think you're depressed.

 

On 9/3/2022 at 7:59 PM, EttaLouWho said:

The anxiety, fear, and ruminating intrusive thoughts feel so overwhelming and paralyzing. I feel like I can barely move or function when they come which for now is every morning and they last for hours. 
sounds like we have similar coping strategies though.  I wish there was something that would just make this all stop for all of us.

I hear you. I have just entered a little 'dirty window' where things have calmed down (for who knows how long) and it's good to get some relief from the desperate and constant feelings of dread that arrive first thing in the morning and continue all day. I wish there was something too, but I've accepted it's just a waiting game.

 

On 9/3/2022 at 7:59 PM, EttaLouWho said:

How long have you been in withdrawal? Are you having your citalopram compounded or are you measuring and reducing the medicine yourself?

I started messing around with my dosage early 2021 and finally jumped off CT in July 21. I've been in WD ever since. What I do is measure out 10ml water and dissolve a 10mg tablet in it, from which I syringe my dosage every day. What do you do?

 

Sorry it took me so long to reply BTW, I'm not always at a computer and I don't like using SA on my phone, too fiddly! x

[EttaLouWho]

Hi @Kat66  I’m glad to hear you are having a bit of a window. I like the term “dirty window” because it perfectly describes the fact that symptoms are still there, they are just not as bad. I was in a bit of a dirty window myself for about six days but I just hit a major wave again. I don’t think I slept at all last night and whenever I would calm down enough to begin to drift off, I would jerk awake in pure terror.  I can’t even cry when the terror hits like this. I just feel frozen, shaking and rocking back and forth, and praying on a continuous loop for God or anyone to help me.  
 

I haven’t tried to taper my gabapentin or buspirone yet but I have watched a lot of the videos on how to make your own doses from pills and tablets. I just do not get the whole liquid suspension thing. I have tried to make it make sense in my head but my brain won’t latch on and I end up nearly in tears because I can’t get it. I guess when I do taper I will have to try a compounding pharmacy. 
 

So I read on here that you should achieve stability prior to tapering another drug but how do you do that with the waves and windows? What if it takes years to reach some sort of stability from them? Do we just continue taking all of our medicine until then? I did a 10% taper projection for both of my drugs and if I start tapering now, I would not be off of them until I was almost 60 years old. I just cannot fathom that and it scares the crap out of me. I’m at a loss for what to do. I don’t want to hurt myself more but I can’t taper for 17 years. Open to your thoughts. 

[Kat66]

I know exactly what you mean about stability. I was in the same panic state wondering what that meant and will I ever get there, when I first came on here. I'm not an expert but from what I gather from reading stuff on here, its when your symptoms are 'constant' and not getting noticeably worse or better. It's worth noting that that is when you're wanting to make a cut with one drug. When you're polydrugged, I'm out of my depth here as I'm only on one drug. It might be worth approaching one of the mods for that kind of advice. Try not to panic and go into a fear spiral though, it's all doable, it just takes time. That's where acceptance comes in. Once you accept this journey for what it is, it helps calm the fear and panic. Have you seen this thread in the tapering section? Might be helpful? When you say you don't get the whole liquid suspension thing, do you mean ratios and all that? I totally get the whole terror thing, that's a massive symptom of WD. I get it mostly in the morning, it tends to ease during the day, but it can be unbearable! 

 

[EttaLouWho]

16 hours ago, Kat66 said:

 Have you seen this thread in the tapering section?

 

Yes, I have seen it but I appreciate you sending it to me again.  I think I will try to taper the Gabapentin first and then move to the Buspirone.  I will wait until I am a bit more stable though.  Seems like I'd be shooting myself in the foot at this point if I did it now.

[EttaLouWho]

Just now, EttaLouWho said:

16 hours ago, Kat66 said:

 When you say you don't get the whole liquid suspension thing, do you mean ratios and all that? 

 

Yes, I watched a video/read the articles on how to dissolve your drug into a liquid then how much of that liquid you should take to get a certain tapered dose and it just went completely over my head.  I must have watched it and read the articles like thirty times. I am having such a hard time concentrating and grasping things lately.  I don't know if that's the withdrawal, the menopause, or both. 

 

[EttaLouWho]

Sorry for the multiple replies.  I guess I don't really know how to work the quoting on here but I will try to figure it out so you don't get 90 notifications next time.    In regards to menopause, is your stomach always bloated?  I can't figure out if the bloating is from AD withdrawal or menopause or both.  When I went into acute AD withdrawal my stomach bloated out like I was nine months pregnant and it hurt so much.  I had this same experience when I detoxed off the benzos and went into severe withdrawal.  They call it benzo belly and it can take forever to resolve.  However, bloating can also be associated with menopause so I just feel at a loss as to what is happening with my body and what to attribute it to.  I guess it doesn't really matter in the end what's causing it but menopause is just throwing a huge wrench into things.  Like am I up typing this reply at 3:54am after never having gone to bed because I have withdrawal induced insomnia or menopausal induced insomnia? There is just so much overlap between symptoms.  Figuring you feel the same but would like to hear more about your experience.

[Kat66]

I don't get bloating as such, just the usual weight gain (annoying!). Benzo belly sounds weird, and your bloating experience sounds really unpleasant. The thing with those of us going through WD and menopause is how can we know what's causing the symptoms as there's so much overlap as you say. Did you say you were on HRT, sorry I can't remember if I've asked you (another annoying overlapping symptom, awful memory!) You're not alone having a hard time grasping stuff and concentrating. It took me ages to grasp my simple ratio for my liquid. I have trouble with the simplest of concepts. I wish I'd tried to come off my AD before menopause hit, it really is a perfect storm of **** isn't it!!

[EttaLouWho]

Yes it really is. I am on birth control to help with my hormones. Been struggling with not sleeping for days on end and severe akathisia. Finally slept for two days in a row and have never been more grateful. I hope you’re doing ok. Please post an update on how you’re doing when you can. 

[Kat66]

What made it possible for you to finally sleep, can you put your finger on it? Sleep deprivation is horrible, and while I have experienced some akathesia I think you have it a lot worse than me. I just read your comment about the gulags, terrifying. It is a form of medically induced torture. Please let this nightmare be over for us all soon! I’ve posted a little update on my page. I’ll check out your page too when I’ve a minute.

 

 Take care xx

[Phoenixmama]

@GiaK thank you for this book rec , makes me think of peri memapause diffrently now , and im ready to embrace it , like i have wd 💪 , if i survived wd with very minimal meds (just  tylenol ) when needed  i can survive anything , im looking forward to embracing what my body will do.... 

[Phoenixmama]

can wd mimic peri menapause or menapause symptoms ?