Melatonin for sleep

[Mikegs96]

15 hours ago, Songbird said:

 

Are you able to cut it into smaller pieces?  e.g. if you could cut it into quarters that would give you a 0.75mg dose.

I ended up getting the natures bounty brand and it's 1mg. Apparently as long as I don't take more than that I should be fine.

[Onmyway]

I just wanted to say that a friend recommended and I am using now an extender release version of melatonin but it comes in 3 mg (from Amazon). Not sure if it makes a difference but thought I'd try it to help with the cortisol awakenings. It seems OK so far but I also had a window so not sure the sleep improvement was due to this or to the window. The wave is back and so are cortisol mornings. 

[Gridley]

2 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I just wanted to say that a friend recommended and I am using now an extender release version of melatonin but it comes in 3 mg (from Amazon).  

 

Onmyway, 3mg is high for those of us in WD.  We recommend starting out with around 0.25mg or 0.5 mg.  3mg can have a paradoxical (stimulating effect).  Something I've been doing that is helping a bit with sleep is taking my .5mg melatonin when I go to bed, and then taking 100mg magnesium glycinate when I wake up (usually around 3am) and then another 100mg magnesium around dawn.  We're all different, but it does help a bit, and sometimes "a bit" means a lot.  

[Songbird]

7 hours ago, Gridley said:

Onmyway, 3mg is high for those of us in WD.  We recommend starting out with around 0.25mg or 0.5 mg.  3mg can have a paradoxical (stimulating effect).  Something I've been doing that is helping a bit with sleep is taking my .5mg melatonin when I go to bed, and then taking 100mg magnesium glycinate when I wake up (usually around 3am) and then another 100mg magnesium around dawn.  We're all different, but it does help a bit, and sometimes "a bit" means a lot.  

 

My understanding is that the 3mg dose would be released gradually over a period of time, so it wouldn't be the same as taking 3mg immediate release.

[Onmyway]

@Songbird, yes, that is what I assumed too. I took it and did not have adverse reactions. However, I don't see on the tablet that it is saying not to break etc. as it usually says on extended release tablets. So initially I started at half a tablet. I did look for lower mg extended release but couldn't find any. During a window I was able to sleep longer and it made a huge difference. Now back in a wave and missing that!

 

[Greggie]

Holy Crap, wait a second here...

 

I've been taking 6mg a night?! I've been having weird dreams, feeling groggy the next day, and have lots of day time anxiety... could it be related to taking such a high dosage? 

 

If I reduce my dosage tonight to say 1mg... I'll have to cut the pill, will by body have a hard time adjusting to the fact that I have been taking so much?

[Onmyway]

I don't think you need to taper melatonin. Just try 1 mg and see. The grogginess could be from melatonin for sure. Sometimes I take extra in the middle of the night and it has that effect in the morning. Re: anxiety not sure. 

[Altostrata]

If you take too much melatonin, it can have a paradoxical effect -- keeping you awake -- or cause an uncomfortable pressured feeling or other reaction, or cause grogginess the next day.

 

This is a caution repeated, like, 30 times in this topic. Read it from the beginning.

[NorthStar]

Hi, all; I'm BRAND new here (see: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/21026-northstar-postpartum-year-hell-~20-meds-on-and-off-brain-feels-like-a-limp-rag/). I just read the entire thread. Though I might have missed some things, there doesn't appear to be advice on the slow-release dosage. Bottomline re: my question: Is it okay to take a higher dose of melatonin if it's extended / slow release - or no?

 

I was taking 10mg slow-release melatonin (+10mg B6 combo pill) at night for a couple/few months and recently reduced to the 5mg version (still slow-release with B6). I recently went off Seroquel 5 weeks ago, had a window of okay sleep (with the 10mg), then hit a wave of really poor sleep. In the last 2 weeks, after the poor sleep started, I've moved to the 5mg slow release and sleep remains variable - but I'm usually waking throughout the night, and in the early morning in a panic. So...

- Do the rules of 1mg or less apply to slow-release melatonin to the point where I should make a change?

- Anyone seen any benefit for slow release vs instant?

 

Thanks!

[Onmyway]

The scientific literature recommends 0.3 mg of  melatonin, so 10 and 5 seem really high even for normal people (i.e. those not in wd). Unfortunately, for reasons no one knows, most melatonin comes in 3 mg (10x higher). It is also not clear what slow release really means when it comes to supplements. My tablets don't show how that is achieved at all. If it doesn't say not to cut your pills, I'd cut to 1/4 and see. People have also noted on some of these threads that B vitamins and vit D can be activating so unless you have a deficiency that needs to be corrected maybe check and see if they contribute to the anxiety? 

[NorthStar]

32 minutes ago, Onmyway said:

The scientific literature recommends 0.3 mg of  melatonin, so 10 and 5 seem really high even for normal people (i.e. those not in wd). Unfortunately, for reasons no one knows, most melatonin comes in 3 mg (10x higher). It is also not clear what slow release really means when it comes to supplements. My tablets don't show how that is achieved at all. If it doesn't say not to cut your pills, I'd cut to 1/4 and see. People have also noted on some of these threads that B vitamins and vit D can be activating so unless you have a deficiency that needs to be corrected maybe check and see if they contribute to the anxiety? 

Thanks. I've read that - that less is more, so it speak. And I'm also unsure if the timed release does anything (sounds like we all are). Being careful to take a change at a time, I'm looking for a melatonin without the B6 that also contains less melatonin. Although I've also read that B6 helps with akathisia, so who knows. Anyway - yes - plan is to find a smaller time released melatonin or cut this one down (it says there's an instant release outer-layer and a time-released center, so cutting it wouldn't be an issue?).

[Onmyway]

1 hour ago, NorthStar said:

Thanks. I've read that - that less is more, so it speak. And I'm also unsure if the timed release does anything (sounds like we all are). Being careful to take a change at a time, I'm looking for a melatonin without the B6 that also contains less melatonin. Although I've also read that B6 helps with akathisia, so who knows. Anyway - yes - plan is to find a smaller time released melatonin or cut this one down (it says there's an instant release outer-layer and a time-released center, so cutting it wouldn't be an issue?).

It might be an issue then if the outer layer is different. I guess the outer layer would dissolve first and then the middle would dissolve later. It might be worth calling the company to check. L-theanine helped with anxiety/restlessness for me but caused nausea.  

[Mikegs96]

Is 3mg's of melatonin considered too much? Cause on Dr. Oz's website it said that 3mg's is more than your body naturally produces. But on other sites it says 3mg's is fine to take. So should I just stick to taking 1mg of melatonin? 

 

Cause I accidentally took 3mg's last night and it worked really well

[Mikegs96]

Also is melatonin something you have to taper before you stop taking it? 

[ChessieCat]

Please read Post #1 of this topic for answers to your questions.

 

Something to remember is that when tapering/experiencing withdrawal, our nervous systems may have become sensitized, so when trying anything new it is better to start with smaller amounts than recommended on the label (or elsewhere) to see how it affects you. 

 

Keep it Simple, Slow and Stable

[Songbird]

10 hours ago, Mikegs96 said:

Is 3mg's of melatonin considered too much? Cause on Dr. Oz's website it said that 3mg's is more than your body naturally produces. But on other sites it says 3mg's is fine to take. So should I just stick to taking 1mg of melatonin? 

 

Cause I accidentally took 3mg's last night and it worked really well

 

I would take the minimum effective dose.  So if 1mg is working well I would stick to that.  If 1mg is not working well, try small increases (e.g. go up to 1.5mg) until you find the lowest dose that works well.

[SouthernFreeze]

Meletonin gets me to sleep, but the real problem is waking up at 3am and not being able to get back to sleep. 

[julia955]

For some reason melatonin helped me a ton with digestive issues I was having like heartburn/bloating. I saw these studies https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2821302/ 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18616070

 

and decided to try it myself and it was the only thing that worked (other than PPIs, which I didn't want to take). 6mg is a big dose but it's still preferable in my opinion to PPIs and I've only had benefits from it, which is unusual for me because I'm very sensitive to most supplements

[RM123]

Thank you for this helpful thread. Is it ok to use melatonin if I am on mirtazapine? I am able to get to sleep atm but I wake up after an hr and can’t go back to sleep again. 

[DD44]

Yes it is

[RM123]

1 hour ago, DD44 said:

Yes it is

Thank you. As I said I can fall asleep but will it help me stay asleep? I’m waking up after an hr and haven’t slept more than that everyday for the last week. Before that I would get 3-4hrs. This is too much for me to handle and I just want to sleep again 

[DD44]

I don’t know your circumstances 

but I would reach out to moderators to get advice 

[Onmyway]

On 12/29/2019 at 5:00 PM, RM123 said:

Thank you. As I said I can fall asleep but will it help me stay asleep? I’m waking up after an hr and haven’t slept more than that everyday for the last week. Before that I would get 3-4hrs. This is too much for me to handle and I just want to sleep again 

Hi RM usually melatonin helps you fall asleep but not stay asleep. We are not sure about the extended release versions. The waking up is the real problem usually.

[RM123]

10 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Hi RM usually melatonin helps you fall asleep but not stay asleep. We are not sure about the extended release versions. The waking up is the real problem usually.

Thank you for clarifying this. I didn’t sleep last night and I’ve barely slept for the last 3 months. I feel like giving up. This is torture. 

[RM123]

19 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Hi RM usually melatonin helps you fall asleep but not stay asleep. We are not sure about the extended release versions. The waking up is the real problem usually.

I went to see the Dr today and they would not prescribe me melatonin as their practice does not justify prescribing any sleeping aids. I just want to sleep again without waking up. I feel like throwing in the towel. 

[Onmyway]

On 12/31/2019 at 5:59 PM, RM123 said:

I went to see the Dr today and they would not prescribe me melatonin as their practice does not justify prescribing any sleeping aids. I just want to sleep again without waking up. I feel like throwing in the towel. 

I am so sorry to hear that you are in the thick of it, RM! 

Insomnia is absolutely awful. I don't know why UK doctors are so reluctant to prescribe it. I was able to get clonazepam so easily but not melatonin. I got mine from the US eventually. If you know anyone who is going abroad (in Spain it's also without prescription but expensive) you may ask them. I also see that online it may be possible to get it but never tried it. Found this: https://uk.iherb.com/pr/Natrol-Melatonin-Maximum-Strength-Citrus-Flavor-10-mg-100-Tablets/69078?gclsrc=aw.ds&gclid=CjwKCAiAo7HwBRBKEiwAvC_Q8UPzSRjVbpnvAEivhlC4hp81ehUfoX6KKN_dR4bR06TsSRmMdFwzGRoCrTwQAvD_BwE

 

The one thing that helped me the most with the insomnia was to not worry about not sleeping. I was driving myself crazy worried that I would end up in a psychosis. When I decided I was going to be ok even with very little sleep, things got better. I didn't sleep much in the beginning at all 2-3 hrs most nights, waking up multiple times.

Then in months 2-3 managed about 4-5 hrs on a good night. Then got better in windows up to 6 hrs/night and sometimes much longer but bad again during waves down to 3-5. In the last 35 hrs I've slept 2hrs and am wide awake. Not worrying helps but if you have to go to work the next day it's not easy. I was practically home bound the first few months.

 

Tips that helped from the forums here:

1) complete darkness (foil your windows if need be). I have cardboard that I can remove with Velcro, then extra curtains on top. Or eye mask. Or both.

2) ear plugs (if necessary)

3) no blue light on computer or phone (there are apps for that - my favorite is Blue light filter by Leap Fitness Group, setting: color temperature 500 K)

4) Sleep hypnosis worked wonders at times  (Sleep Cove on Spotify was what worked for me - also on YouTube)

5) L-theanine worked a bit (I think) but made me nauseous, same with magnesium (stomach issues with Mg citrate but ok with Mg glycinate)

6) Absolutely no caffeine and only rarely chocolate

7) walking during the day

😎distracting myself by opening a window or watching TV or playing a game when waking up with panic (multiple times a night, still every night 10 months out)

9) a warm shower before bed, cool room

10) I do think the slow release melatonin keeps me sleeping longer but not more than 5-6 hrs, it definitely helps me to fall asleep quickly though

 

Things that work for others but didn't for me:

1) white noise or music in the background

2) a more disciplined/rigid sleep schedule (I sleep when I can and don't feel guilty about it any more but others find going to bed at the same time at nightfall and getting up early morning helps)

 

Things that seem to work for others but I haven't tried:

 

1) Epsom salt baths - either whole body or just feet

 

I can't think of anything else but know that this does get better. And trust that your body will survive this and heal from it even if slowly.

[RM123]

@Onmyway thanks for the reply. It is absolutely horrible. I bought Montmorency cherry capsules today and will give that ago but not sure when to take it and how much tho. I’m also taking mag gly. Do you take fast acting melatonin as well?  Not sure where to purchase outside the UK.  
 

My sleeping hasn’t got any better. Been only sleeping 1-2hr night for last two weeks and some days with no sleep at all. I have to work as well and I really don’t know how I do it everyday with this much sleep. I even go to the gym after work. I was sleeping 4hrs before I reinstated Mirtzapine because I panicked. Thinking I should of just stayed cold turkey. 
 

I’m doing everything in terms of sleep hygiene as well. Can’t find a good app for blue light filter on iPhone. Supposedly research says the built in on does not work. Really appreciate you taking the time out to message. 
 

I’m just extremely fed up and want it to end. On top of this I’ve developed eyes bags and look horrible. This makes things worse. I look like I’m so tired and ill  I go back to work soon as I took holiday and everyone will notice and wonder what the hell happened to me. 

[emilie]

i , i was wondering for sleep problem, there is 

melatonin,

but since melatonin come from serotonin that comes from tryptophan (from food).

have some of you tried tryptophan supplement? 

[emilie]

On 7/12/2019 at 11:26 PM, Onmyway said:

The scientific literature recommends 0.3 mg of  melatonin, so 10 and 5 seem really high even for normal people (i.e. those not in wd). Unfortunately, for reasons no one knows, most melatonin comes in 3 mg (10x higher). It is also not clear what slow release really means when it comes to supplements. My tablets don't show how that is achieved at all. If it doesn't say not to cut your pills, I'd cut to 1/4 and see. People have also noted on some of these threads that B vitamins and vit D can be activating so unless you have a deficiency that needs to be corrected maybe check and see if they contribute to the anxiety? 

thanks.

it seems literrature say if more 0,3mg is taken, it is like if you take nothing. 

https://www.lanutrition.fr/bien-etre/le-sommeil/la-melatonine-est-elle-efficace-contre-linsomnie-

"Richard Wurtman (MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts), one of the world's specialists in melatonin, has shown in his publications that when administered to people over 50, this hormone is only effective if the dose ingested before night does not not exceed 0.3 mg. Indeed, he explains that in the brain if the melatonin receptors are exposed to an excess of hormone, they stop working. In your study, the dose administered is 2 mg. "

 

i think it need extanded liberation to do not exceed 0,3mg

in the article it speak about circadin brand which is a 2mg pill, but extanded liberation"

 

http://news.mit.edu/1993/melatonin-1117

 peak melatonin levels following the 0.1mg and 0.3mg treatments were comparable to the normal night levels of the hormone. Levels following the 1.0 and 10 mg treatments were greater than normal night levels.

 

http://news.mit.edu/2001/melatonin-1017

According to our research, the physiological dose of melatonin of about 0.3 milligrams restores sleep in adults over the age of 50,

The researchers also discovered that the typical health food store dosage of melatonin, which is about three milligrams (or 10 times the dosage in the study), is less effective in treating insomnia. 

"Our study has shown that less is more as far as melatonin is concerned

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-dark-side-of-melatoni_b_8855998

According to Dr. Wurtman, melatonin supplements may work at first, but soon “you’ll stop responding because you desensitize the brain. And as a consequence, not only won’t you respond to the stuff you take…you won’t respond to the stuff you make, so it can actually promote insomnia after a period of time.”

Mauricio Farez, an Argentinian sleep researcher, has similar reservations. “I have some issues, in terms of the pharmacology, and…it’s really hard to have stable levels of the drug in our blood.”

Grandner agrees. “Taking melatonin for an extended period of time your body may acclimate and re-adjust and produce less over time which will work against you.”

 

https://touchneurology.com/low-doses-of-melatonin-promote-sleep-onset-and-maintenance-in-older-people-an-update/

A very small dose (0.3 mg) of melatonin is usually sufficient to restore nighttime plasma melatonin levels to those characteristic of young people, 

[Onmyway]

7 hours ago, emilie said:

thanks.

it seems literrature say if more 0,3mg is taken, it is like if you take nothing. 

https://www.lanutrition.fr/bien-etre/le-sommeil/la-melatonine-est-elle-efficace-contre-linsomnie-

"Richard Wurtman (MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts), one of the world's specialists in melatonin, has shown in his publications that when administered to people over 50, this hormone is only effective if the dose ingested before night does not not exceed 0.3 mg. Indeed, he explains that in the brain if the melatonin receptors are exposed to an excess of hormone, they stop working. In your study, the dose administered is 2 mg. "

 

i think it need extanded liberation to do not exceed 0,3mg

in the article it speak about circadin brand which is a 2mg pill, but extanded liberation"

 

http://news.mit.edu/1993/melatonin-1117

 peak melatonin levels following the 0.1mg and 0.3mg treatments were comparable to the normal night levels of the hormone. Levels following the 1.0 and 10 mg treatments were greater than normal night levels.

 

http://news.mit.edu/2001/melatonin-1017

According to our research, the physiological dose of melatonin of about 0.3 milligrams restores sleep in adults over the age of 50,

The researchers also discovered that the typical health food store dosage of melatonin, which is about three milligrams (or 10 times the dosage in the study), is less effective in treating insomnia. 

"Our study has shown that less is more as far as melatonin is concerned

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-dark-side-of-melatoni_b_8855998

According to Dr. Wurtman, melatonin supplements may work at first, but soon “you’ll stop responding because you desensitize the brain. And as a consequence, not only won’t you respond to the stuff you take…you won’t respond to the stuff you make, so it can actually promote insomnia after a period of time.”

Mauricio Farez, an Argentinian sleep researcher, has similar reservations. “I have some issues, in terms of the pharmacology, and…it’s really hard to have stable levels of the drug in our blood.”

Grandner agrees. “Taking melatonin for an extended period of time your body may acclimate and re-adjust and produce less over time which will work against you.”

 

https://touchneurology.com/low-doses-of-melatonin-promote-sleep-onset-and-maintenance-in-older-people-an-update/

A very small dose (0.3 mg) of melatonin is usually sufficient to restore nighttime plasma melatonin levels to those characteristic of young people, 

 

An anecdote about Wurtman, he is the one who repurposed fluoxetine to treat PMDD, patented it and sold it under the name Serafem. Not that that impacts on his opinion on melatonin, just an interesting tidbit. 

 

I found the following article on melatonin on the interwebs. It seems well researched and has a lot of melatonin

information and some theories on how it works. Can't attest to the veracity of said information as I haven't fact checked it, though. 

https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/

 

This is, arguably more important as it shows how different brands of melatonin/strength fared in lab tests on purity. What's interesting here is that some brands have more melatonin than they advertise on the bottle and some have substantially less. I'm bookmarking labdoor from now on for useful infor on supplements. 

 

https://labdoor.com/rankings/melatonin

 

 

[SouthernFreeze]

15 hours ago, emilie said:

i , i was wondering for sleep problem, there is 

melatonin,

but since melatonin come from serotonin that comes from tryptophan (from food).

have some of you tried tryptophan supplement? 

I once saw a naturopath who gave me a good quality tryptophan supplement. I didn't use it for sleep but I remember it definitely relaxed me in a non drowsy sort of way. 

[LaurafromCT]

I was taking 3mg melatonin in the evenings for a while but then I thought it was making me feel worse.  So I asked my Dr whether melatonin could be increasing my serotonin levels and here is what he said.  FWIW... just to add to the discussion. 

 

"So, first serotonin is the PRECURSOR for melatonin and there isn't, to my knowledge, a reverse flow back to serotonin.  3 mg melatonin is considerably more than the pineal secretes. 

But, on the other hand, I'm not sure how well melatonin passes the blood-brain-barrier, so it's not clear how much melatonin gets through to the brain.  Also, I'm not sure what the concentration of pineal-generated melatonin turns out to be in the rest of the brain. 

 

However, data suggest that melatonin stimulates serotonin release:  

 

J Pineal Res, 17 (4), 170-6

Nov 1994

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7536843/

Effects of Single Doses and Daily Melatonin Treatments on Serotonin Metabolism in Rat Brain Regions

 

J M Miguez  ¹ , F J Martin, M Aldegunde

 

Abstract

The acute effects of two doses (0.5 and 1 mg/kg) of melatonin on the levels of tryptophan, serotonin, and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid in several rat brain regions were studied. Tryptophan content in the brain regions was unchanged by the treatments. Melatonin at a dosage of 0.5 mg/kg increased medial hypothalamic serotonin levels at 60 and 90 min after the injection. However, the dose of 1 mg/kg increased the levels of this amine or its metabolite in the preoptic area-anterior hypothalamus, medial and posterior hypothalamus, amygdala, and midbrain. These results suggest a specific regional sensitivity to melatonin as well as a dose-dependent response. The stimulatory melatonin effect on the serotoninergic system was also observed after a daily treatment with this hormone (0.5 mg/kg, twice daily during 10 days) in both intact or pinealectomized rats. In intact rats, melatonin treatment increased the levels of 5-hydroxyindole-3-acetic acid in the preoptic area-anterior hypothalamus and medial hypothalamus, while in pinealectomized rats melatonin increased the serotonin content in the medial hypothalamic region. The data support the idea that melatonin has a selective action on serotonin metabolism in regions that contain serotoninergic terminals, especially at medial hypothalamic level.

 

Generally, benefits from evening melatonin wane over a few days to a week of regular dosing.  Also generally, stopping has no significant adverse effect to the best of my knowledge."

[Lzieb]

@Altostrata, hi I was wondering about the melatonin. I started with 3/4 of a half the first day and went to sleep. But it nothing the second day. I went up to 3/4 of 1 last night and I had a terrible headache. I am going to go back down. Thoughts?

 

Also, what can you use if you can't use melatonin?

 

Can I use it for a few weeks to power through my insomnia and reset my sleep cycle? Like it's not harming anything because I have a headache?

 

Btw, I read everything on the sleep forum. Can insomnia eventually be fixed even if it's due to a drug harm?

 

Thx

[Altostrata]

Please read this topic from the beginning. As little as 0.25mg might be effective. You may have to experiment to find the melatonin dosage that works for you.

 

Melatonin is most effective when used in a regular sleep schedule aligned with cycles of dark and light. Also see

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration

 

What is the sleep cycle?

 

TV or computer use in evening can disrupt sleep: Bright light signals the brain that it's daytime

 

 

Melatonin is not a sleeping pill, it will not compensate for a bad habit of staying up late playing video games, for example.

[neverknew]

@Altostrata  any thoughts on pineal gland stimulators?  I know someone who's integrative psychiatrist prescribed one for her, I assume to stimulate the production of melatonin. She was on it for a couple of months but then it started to not work any more. Sort of like when OTC melatonin poops out. Other than that, I don't know any thing about them. I'm always looking into things that might help sleep. But at the same time, I'm always leery because I have so many paradoxical reactions.

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, neverknew said:

but then it started to not work any more.

 

1 hour ago, neverknew said:

I'm always leery because I have so many paradoxical reactions.

 

I think you've answered the question yourself.