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Liver detox, gallbladder flush, internal cleansing, enemas, fasting & other detoxification methods


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Has anyone done any reseach into the following article

 

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The liver is one of the most important organs in the body when it comes to detoxifying or getting rid of foreign substances or toxins, especially from the gut. The liver plays a key role in most metabolic processes, especially detoxification. (Article continues below...)

 

The liver detoxifies harmful substances by a complex series of chemical reactions. The role of these various enzyme activities in the liver is to convert fat-soluble toxins into water-soluble substances that can be excreted in the urine or the bile depending on the particular characteristics of the end product. Many of the toxic chemicals that enter the body are fat-soluble, which means they dissolve only in fatty or oily solutions and not in water. This makes them difficult for the body to excrete.

 

Fat-soluble chemicals have a high affinity for fat tissues and cell membranes, which are composed of fatty acids and proteins. In these fatty tissues of the body, toxins may be stored for years, being released during times of exercise, stress or fasting. During the release of these toxins, several symptoms such as headaches, poor memory, stomach pain, nausea, fatigue, dizziness and palpitations can occur.

 

Function; Reasons for Use 

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Simply speaking, the body's natural liver detoxification process involves two steps; Phase 1 and Phase 2. A toxin initially enters Phase 1, the P-450 cytochrome system, and is reduced to smaller fragments. These fragments then progress to Phase 2, where they are bound to molecules such as glutathione, glycine and sulfate. This process creates a new non-toxic molecule that can be excreted in the bile, urine or stool. In effect,

 

Phase 1 either directly neutralizes a toxin, or modifies the toxic chemical to form activated intermediates which are then neutralized by one of more of the several Phase 2 enzyme systems.

 

In Phase 1, a toxic chemical is converted into a less harmful chemical. This is achieved by various chemical reactions (such as oxidation, reduction and hydrolysis), and during this process free radicals are produced which, if excessive, can damage the liver cells. Antioxidants reduce the damage caused by these free radicals.

 

If antioxidants are lacking and toxin exposure is high, toxic chemicals become far more dangerous. Some may be converted from relatively harmless substances into potentially carcinogenic substances. One or both detoxification phases can be inefficient or overloaded.

 

A particularly damaging combination in an ill person is an excessive overload of toxins coming into Phase 1, with an inefficient Phase 2. In some cases this combination is believed to be the cause of marked environmental sensitivities, drug intolerances and interactions that characterize many chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia patients.

 

Patients with underactive Phase 1 detoxification will experience an intolerance to caffeine, perfumes and other environmental chemicals, and an increased risk for liver disease, while those with an overactive system will be relatively unaffected by caffeine drinks. Caffeine is an example of a chemical directly neutralized by Phase 1.

 

One way of objectively determining the activity of Phase 1 is to measure how efficiently a person detoxifies caffeine. Using this test, a surprising fivefold difference in the detoxification rates of apparently healthy adult has been noted. Substances that activate Phase I detoxification: Drugs: alcohol; nicotine in cigarette smoke; Phenobarbital; sulfonamides; steroids Foods: cabbage, broccoli, and brussels sprouts; charcoal-broiled meats; high-protein diet; oranges and tangerines (but not grapefruits) Nutrients: niacin; vitamin B1; vitamin C Herbs: caraway and dill seeds Environmental toxins: carbon tetrachloride; exhaust fumes; paint fumes; dioxin; pesticides

 

Grapefruit juice, which contains naringenin, slows down Phase I enzyme activity. It decreases the rate of elimination of drugs from the blood and has been found to substantially alter their clinical activity and toxicity. Eight ounces of grapefruit juice contains enough of the flavonoid naringenin to decrease cytochrome P450 activity by a remarkable 30%.

 

Phase II Detoxification

This is called the conjugation pathway, whereby the liver cells add another substance (eg. cysteine, glycine or a sulphur molecule) to a toxic chemical or drug, to render it less harmful. This makes the toxin or drug water-soluble, so it can then be excreted from the body via watery fluids such as bile or urine. Individual xenobiotics and metabolites usually follow one or two distinct pathways.

 

There are essentially six phase II detoxification pathways:

Glutathione conjugation

Amino acid conjugation

Methylation

Sulfation

Acetylation

Glucuronidation

 

The conjugation molecules are acted upon by specific enzymes to catalyse the reaction step. Through conjugation, the liver is able to turn drugs, hormones and various toxins into excretable substances.

 

For efficient Phase Two detoxification, the liver cells require sulphur-containing amino acids such as taurine and cysteine. The nutrients glycine, glutamine, choline and inositol are also required for efficient phase two detoxification.

 

The rate at which Phase 1 produces activated intermediates must be balanced by the rate at which Phase 2 finishes its processing. People with a very active Phase 1 detoxification system coupled with slow or inactive Phase 2 enzymes are termed pathological detoxifiers. These people suffer unusually severe toxic reactions to environmental poisons.

 

A liver detoxification test can pinpoint exactly how efficiently your liver is carrying out the detoxification process and if you are a pathological detoxifier. An imbalance between Phase I and Phase II can also occur when a person is exposed to large amounts of toxins or exposed to toxins for a long period of time. In these situations, the critical nutrients needed for Phase II detoxification are depleted, which allows the highly toxic activated intermediates to build up.

 

Proper functioning of the liver's detoxification systems is especially important for the prevention of cancer. Up to 90% of all cancers are thought to be due to the effects of environmental carcinogens, such as those in cigarette smoke, food, water, and air, combined with deficiencies of the nutrients the body needs for proper functioning of the detoxification and immune systems.

 

The level of exposure to environmental carcinogens varies widely, as does the efficiency of the detoxification enzymes, particularly Phase 2. High levels of exposure to carcinogens coupled with slow detoxification enzymes significantly increases susceptibility to cancer.

 

When optimum nutrition is provided, the liver operates efficiently. Many (and perhaps most) people do not eat the right kinds of foods to provide the liver with everything it needs for the elimination of the extra toxins that the body is exposed to daily. If nutrition is compromised through poor dietary and lifestyle habits, this will impede detoxification processes, and other organs will suffer as the body retains these toxins.

 

When working properly, the liver clears 99% of the bacteria and other toxins during the first pass. However, when the liver is damaged, such as in alcoholics, the passage of toxins increases by over a factor of 10.

 

The liver's Phase 2 detoxification process involves the synthesis and secretion of bile. Each day the liver manufactures approximately 1 quart of bile, which serves as a carrier in which many toxic substances are dumped into the intestines. In the intestines, the bile and its toxic load are absorbed by fiber and excreted. However, a diet low in fiber results in inadequate binding and reabsorption of the toxins. This problem is magnified when bacteria in the intestine modify these toxins to more damaging forms.

 

Directions

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If a patient is very ill with severe toxic symptoms, hepatic detoxification must be performed very slowly and gradually. It is always preferable first to reduce toxin exposure and any liver inflammation.

 

In addition, leaky gut syndrome should be addressed and repaired prior to any liver detoxification.

 

An efficient liver detoxification system is vital to health and in order to support this process it is essential that many key nutrients are included in the diet. Vitamins and minerals - particularly the B vitamins - play a major role, acting as cofactors for many enzyme systems including those of liver detoxification, therefore ensuring a plentiful supply of the B-complex group of vitamins is of prime importance for optimum detoxification.

 

Liver Detoxification Support can be achieved through both nutritional means and botanical medicines. Nutritional factors -- including antioxidant vitamins such as vitamin C, beta-carotene, and vitamin E -- are obviously important in protecting the liver from damage as well as helping in the detoxification mechanisms. However, even simple nutrients like the B-vitamins, calcium, and trace minerals are critical in the elimination of heavy metals and other toxic compounds from the body.

 

The lipotropic agents, choline, betaine, methionine, vitamin B6, folic acid, and vitamin B12, are useful as they promote the flow of fat and bile to and from the liver. Lipotropic formulas have been used for a wide variety of conditions by nutrition-oriented physicians including a number of liver disorders such as hepatitis, cirrhosis, and chemical-induced liver disease. Lipotropic formulas appear to increase the levels of SAM and glutathione.

 

Methionine, choline, and betaine have been shown to increase the levels of SAM. Depletion of vitamin C may impair the detoxification process; vitamin C also prevents free radical formation. Vitamin E and selenium are cofactors for glutathione peroxidase activity as well as being powerful antioxidants in themselves.

 

Other nutrients which play vital roles in the Phase II pathway include amino acids glycine, cysteine, glutamine, methionine, taurine, glutamic acid and aspartic acid.

 

Botanical medicines include a long list of plants which exert beneficial effects on liver function. However, the most impressive research has been done on silymarin, the flavonoids extracted from milk thistle (silybum marianum). These compounds exert a substantial effect on protecting the liver from damage as well as enhancing detoxification processes.

 

Silymarin prevents damage to the liver through several mechanisms: by acting as an antioxidant, by increasing the synthesis of glutathione and by increasing the rate of liver tissue regeneration. Silymarin is many times more potent in antioxidant activity than vitamin E and vitamin C. The protective effect of silymarin against liver damage has been demonstrated in numerous experimental studies. Silymarin has been shown to protect the liver from the damage produced by such liver-toxic chemicals as carbon tetrachloride, amanita toxin, galactosamine, and praseodymium nitrate.

 

One of the key mechanisms by which silymarin enhances detoxification is by preventing the depletion of glutathione. Silymarin not only prevents the depletion of glutathione induced by alcohol and other toxic chemicals, but has been shown to increase the level of glutathione of the liver by up to 35%, even in normal individuals. In human studies, silymarin has been shown to have positive effects in treating liver diseases of various kinds, including cirrhosis, chronic hepatitis, fatty infiltration of the liver, and inflammation of the bile duct. The standard dosage for silymarin is 70-210 mg three times/day.

 

Curcumin, the compound that gives turmeric its yellow color, is interesting because it inhibits Phase I while stimulating Phase II. This effect can be very useful in preventing certain types of cancer. Curcumin has been found to inhibit carcinogens such as benzopyrene (found in charcoal-broiled meat) from inducing cancer in several animal models. It appears that the curcumin exerts its anti-carcinogenic activity by lowering the activation of carcinogens while increasing the detoxification of those that are activated. Curcumin has also been shown to directly inhibit the growth of cancer cells.

 

poodlebell

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Yes and I have spoken with toxicology researchers at major universities and have been told by all of them that we can not help the bodies detox system except by eating well, keeping stress low, drink lots of water, exercise and not ingesting toxic substances

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Hmmm, I feel I must point out here that withdrawal symptoms are not due to toxicity, but to the ABSENCE of a drug upon which the body has become dependent. The liver has done its job properly and caused what it can to be excreted.

 

Given that we urge gradual tapering, anything of the drug remaining in fat or tissues could be considered to cushion, however minimally, the lack of the drug the body is craving. If you are in the middle of tapering, which means you're deliberately slowing the passage of the drug from your body, why would you want to speed the drug out of your system with liver detoxification (assuming that would work)?

 

My belief is that, our bodies and nervous systems being under so much stress from withdrawal, detoxing the liver or any other ritual of purification only adds further stress and doesn't do anything positive for proper withdrawal. (Liver detox was developed for serious, identifiable heavy metal poisoning.) Liver cleansing is one of those things naturopathic medicine routinely recommends for all kinds of ills, with very little evidence it helps any of them. I do not think it's appropriate for withdrawal syndrome.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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Alto I agree with you 100%

 

This myth was started in the opiate WD groups because they have such body pain - they were sold a bill of goods that it was because the drugs were lodged in the bones and tissues and needed detoxing.

 

The toxicology department at Stanford has tested fat and tissue biopsies and found no residual drugs or metabolites after the typical 6 half life washout period

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I think so too, I did a liver cleansing together with a colon cleaning about 15 months in WD, still months before finding PP and learning about WD.

It did not lift any of my symptoms, altough I must admit that the colon cleaning (using klysma's) surely had some benefit, long tough rope-like pieces of hard stuff came out! To my frustration it had no effect on my intestinal mess (which of course was a WD symptom) but about 6 months later my intestines came finally to rest and now I have very smooth faeces :)

Sometimes I tend to believe that the old stuff in my intestines was toxic and even contained Paxil residues and that could be a reasin for my delayed WD but of course this is nothing but speculation and proably not very likely.

But as Altostrata states, WD is not about detoxification but about reverting your nervous system to the pre-med condition which should be done as slow as possible, were a real detoxification from, for example, mercury or other heavy metals, should be done as fast as possible.

10 mg Paxil/Seroxat since 2002
several attempts to quit since 2004
Quit c/t again Oktober 2007, in protracted w/d since then
after 3.5 years slight improvement but still on the road

after 6 years pretty much recovered but still some nasty residual sypmtons
after 8.5 years working again on a 90% base and basically functioning normally again!

 

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  • 9 months later...

So I've just had my 6th treatment at my reflexologist, and she claims that my liver is very likely compromised in some way, from the years of drug assaults.

 

Now, she wants to detoxify me, but she also realizes that we can't go too fast, due to my vulnerable state. I have explained my situation to her in detail and she is very understanding. She suggested a chinese herbal supplement called Relaxed Wanderer to me, which I have now been taking for 5 weeks. These are very little droplets that supposedly helps stimulate the livers own detoxification properties. Besides the horrible taste, I haven't experienced anything negative so far.

 

Now she wants to take it a step further and has asked me to consider a coffee enema as the next step. This supposedly is a harmless (albeit uncomfortable I would imagine) but very effective way of detoxifying the liver, without any of the ill effects you may get by ingesting coffee orally. I've decided to research this thoroughly before trying, and it would seem like there are no real risks if done properly, and many people report great benefits.

 

Anyone have thoughts on this? I figured I would ask you people here, because doing tons of research myself is still quite difficult for me, not to mention draining.

 

So far it doesn't seem like a bad idea if done carefully. Any input is appreciated.

Suffered a severe adverse reaction to the tricyclic drug Nortriptyline in October 2008, which completely wrecked my brain and my nervous system. I am currently in my 38th month of recovery, with many symptoms still present, and with no improvement in quality of life, which is still nonexistant. The damage is so severe, that I fear I've been permanently disabled. I struggle to get outside as often as I can (still only for short periods of time), but I am still very much a vegetable mentally.

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It is practiced by people using the GAPS protocol.

 

I have never done it due to my extreme sensitivity to everything. Though the coffee is evidently absorbed through the colon so... Yeah, I don't know much else about the risk since Ive never done it.

 

I may also be having liver problems but it's not something I am ready to try just yet.

 

Also, the liver detoxification is the reason it's used in gaps. If you visit gapsguide.com there is a link to several GAPS resources like the Yahoo list and you can probably find a lot of folks who have done the enema to give you feedback. Many have history with psych meds but few, from my experience, have history with extensive withdrawal or the neurological effects thereof.

 

Let me know how it goes.

 

Good luck,

Alex

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

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This sounds like major stress. I wouldn't do it.

 

- Do not introduce more caffeine into the body. Yes, it can be absorbed through an enema.

 

- You cannot reach the liver through a rectal enema. Look at an anatomy chart.

 

- Livers have astonishing healing capacities. Don't interfere with them.

 

- You do not have withdrawal symptoms because you are impure.

 

 

I cannot emphasize this enough. There must be an ancient belief that people suffer because they are impure. This has become attached to health as well, and has been enshrined in alternative health practices.

 

Although alternative healers and integrative doctors mean well, purification techniques tend to put additional stress on the body -- which people having withdrawal symptoms do not need -- and are based on the idea that once you get the demon out of the body, your problem will be solved.

 

Go very, very carefully with any purification technique, including

 

- Liver cleansing

- Extreme diets

- Fasting

- Enemas

- Heavy metal chelation

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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You do not have withdrawal symptoms because you are impure.

 

I cannot emphasize this enough. Humans must have an atavistic belief that people suffer because they are impure. This has become attached to health as well, and has been enshrined in alternative health practices.

 

You do not need to physically purify your body in order to recover, and many purification techniques could cause additional stress that can make you sicker.

 

But I want to get this drug out of my body as fast as possible!

If you are in the middle of tapering, which means you're deliberately slowing the passage of the drug from your body, why would you want to speed the drug out of your system with liver detoxification (assuming that would work) or any other purification technique?

 

The point of tapering is steady, gradual reduction, right? You're not being poisoned by tiny amounts of drug buried in your body. Withdrawal symptoms occur because of the absence of a drug, not because of its presence.

 

Given that we urge gradual tapering, anything of the drug stored in fat or tissues could be considered to cushion, however minimally, the lack of the drug the body is craving.

 

Liver detoxification, good for everything?

Psychiatric drug withdrawal symptoms are due to the ABSENCE of a drug upon which the body has become dependent. The liver has been doing its job properly and caused what it can to be excreted.

 

Our bodies and nervous systems being under so much stress from withdrawal, detoxing the liver or any other method of purification only adds further stress and doesn't do anything positive for proper withdrawal. (Liver detox was developed for serious, identifiable heavy metal poisoning.)

 

Liver cleansing is one of those things naturopathic medicine routinely recommends for all kinds of ills, with very little evidence it helps any of them. It is not appropriate for withdrawal syndrome.

 

There's always the possibility you might inadvertently damage your liver. Livers have astonishing natural healing capabilities. Don't interfere with them.

 

Get the poison out of the body, problem solved?

Although alternative healers and integrative doctors mean well, purification techniques tend to put additional stress on the body -- which people having withdrawal symptoms do not need -- and are based on the idea that once you get the demon out of the body, your problem will be solved.

 

This may have symbolic appeal, but it is not true.

 

What do you mean by a purification technique?

Go very, very carefully with any purification technique, including

 

- Liver cleansing

- Extreme diets

- Fasting

- Enemas of any type (Do not introduce more caffeine into the body. Yes, it can be absorbed through an enema. You cannot reach the liver through a rectal enema. Look at an anatomy chart.)

- Heavy metal chelation (this is ONLY for serious heavy metal poisoning identified through a test in a medical office)

 

What about spiritual practices of purification?

You may find solace in spiritual practices that involve imagining purification or removal of obstacles, or rituals such as smudging. These help center your thoughts and focus you towards healing. These can be genuinely helpful.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Barbarannamated

Went to a Naturopath/NFT/PharmD chemist who seemed to understand the complexity of long term AD and benzo use and withdrawal - he refused to let me do a foot bath detox b/c of what you describe and the probability of worsening symptoms - his caution definitely got my attention -

Or he was trying to sell me his other products and full program -

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

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While reading about online, I found out that the coffee enemas are used as an integral part of the alternative cancer treatment program Gerson Therapy, and stumbled upon a more scientific explanation of how it works. The purpose is not to flush anything out

 

I found this document on the Gerson website:

 

http://gerson.org/pdfs/How_Coffee_Enemas_Work.pdf

 

Scientific Basis of Coffee Enemas

 

We would like to briefly reiterate the purpose of coffee enemas because many people new to the therapy ask about this, and also as a reminder to “veterans” for how we can explain this to others.

Coffee enemas are a vital part of the detoxification process of the Gerson Therapy. The purpose of the enemas is to remove toxins accumulated in the liver and to remove free radicals from the bloodstream. In the 1920s, two German professors tested the effects of infused caffeine on rats. They found that the caffeine travels via the hemorrhoidal vein and the portal system to the liver, opens up the bile ducts and allows the liver to release bile, which contains toxins. The theobromine, theophylline, and the caffeine in coffee dilate blood vessels and bile ducts, relax smooth muscles, and increase the bile flow.

 

Doctors at the University of Minnesota showed that coffee administered rectally also stimulates an enzyme system in the liver called glutathione S-transferase by 600%-700% above normal activity levels. This enzyme reacts with free radicals (which cause cell damage) in the bloodstream and makes them inert. These neutralized substances become dissolved in the bile, are released through the bile flow from the liver and gallbladder, and are excreted through the intestinal tract. A Gerson patient holds the coffee enema in the colon for 12-15 minutes. During this time, the body’s entire blood supply passes through the liver 4-5 times, carrying poisons picked up from the tissues. So the enema acts as a form of dialysis of the blood across the gut wall.

 

[highlight]The purpose of the coffee enema is not to clear out the intestines, but the quart of water in the enema stimulates peristalsis in the gut. A portion of the water also dilutes the bile and increases the bile flow, thereby flushing toxic bile (loaded with toxins by the glutathione S-transferase enzyme system) out of the intestines.[/highlight]

A patient coping with a chronic degenerative disease or an acute illness can achieve the following benefits from the lowering of blood serum toxin levels achieved by regular administration of coffee enemas:

 

1) increased cell energy production

2) enhanced tissue health

3) improved blood circulation

4) better immunity and tissue repair and

5) cellular regeneration

 

Additionally, coffee enemas can help to relieve pain, nausea, general nervous tension and depression.

From what I've been reading, there aren't really any ill effects of doing it. Most of the risks associated with it seems to be using the wrong equipment or doing the procedure wrong (such as using hot coffee, or dirty nozzles, which are easily avoidable).

 

I am not particularly concerned about feeling uncomfortable, I mean, I've been deathly sick for 5 years now, I'm dealing with severe discomfort every second of the day anyway. The only thing I am concerned about, is serious long term effects or risk of hospitalization, which doesn't seem to be an issue at all.

 

Caffeine rush - I can deal with it.

Diarrhea - I can deal with it

Liquid up my bum - I can deal with it

Zero effect - I can deal with it (at least I've tried).

 

My condition isn't withdrawal either, it is something much more profound. The only word I know that can somewhat describe it is "adverse reaction", but we all know that this term is an extremely vague description, and leaves no attempt to describe what is ACTUALLY malfunctioning in the brain and body.

 

Now, I've had gastrointestinal issues since day one, nausea every day, and tumor-like sensations in my head for over 3 years now. I have no doubt, that I suffer from some sort of bodily/cellular/nervous dysfunction, and just waiting for it to pass doesn't seem to work very well (41 months out now, and every 5 year old child would put my mental abilities to shame).

 

I will spend a little more time reading about it, but I don't think we should just disregard risk-free treatments completely. We don't even fully understand how and why we are sick, we just know that drugs caused it.

 

I think I am wiling to take the risk.

Suffered a severe adverse reaction to the tricyclic drug Nortriptyline in October 2008, which completely wrecked my brain and my nervous system. I am currently in my 38th month of recovery, with many symptoms still present, and with no improvement in quality of life, which is still nonexistant. The damage is so severe, that I fear I've been permanently disabled. I struggle to get outside as often as I can (still only for short periods of time), but I am still very much a vegetable mentally.

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Those "purification cures" are exactly what I did during my first horrific year of w/d, in 2008. Several probably well-meaning alternative healers prescribed me a variety of supplements that should "clean my liver and body...", of course to no avail. When I was already more than one year sick, in utter despair I did an enema predecessed by a 5 days period of juice-fasting...

All of this made me feel even worse. THe only good thing is may be that my intestinals WERE not clean, even after 4 days of fasting very dirty and ugly pieces of rope-like stuff came out. When the intestinal mess finally came to an end somewhere mid 2009, my excrements were very smooth looking perfectly normal and still are today. So maybe this was at least one positive effect from the enema.

 

But bottomline is that is was absolutely the wrong approach by the therapist who was an expert in medicine detoxification and was highly recommended by the Shiatsu massage therapist I visited in that time. It just underlines the total misunderstading of SSRI addiciton and depcendence which is even not understood and treated well by the alternative healers.

I think that could have hindered my recovery to a great extent and is maybe partly responsible for my horrific and extremely long-lasting suffering and besides costed my hunderds, if not thousands of bugs... :( But in the end I survived and only cling to my last massage therapist who learend also a lot of me and now helps other people in the WD process.

10 mg Paxil/Seroxat since 2002
several attempts to quit since 2004
Quit c/t again Oktober 2007, in protracted w/d since then
after 3.5 years slight improvement but still on the road

after 6 years pretty much recovered but still some nasty residual sypmtons
after 8.5 years working again on a 90% base and basically functioning normally again!

 

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The stuff that's up there in your intestines can look (and smell) very bad, but it's not what's making you sick.

 

If you want to clear out your intestines, taking some magnesium can do it quite well....

 

My bowel movements got more normal too, over time.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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Why do you think a (highly questionable) cancer therapy is going to help your autonomic condition?

 

From the American Cancer Society http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/ComplementaryandAlternativeMedicine/DietandNutrition/gerson-therapy

 

Overview

 

Available scientific evidence does not support claims that Gerson therapy is effective in treating cancer, and the principles behind it are not widely accepted by the medical community. It is not approved for use in the United States. Gerson therapy can be dangerous. Coffee enemas have been associated with serious infections, dehydration, constipation, colitis (inflammation of the colon), electrolyte imbalances, and even death.

 

....

Gerson therapy is considered a metabolic therapy (see Metabolic Therapy), and it is based on the theory that disease is caused by the body's accumulation of toxic substances.

 

....

According to practitioners of Gerson therapy, people who have cancer have too much sodium and not enough potassium in their cells. The fruit and vegetable diet that is part of Gerson therapy is used to correct this imbalance and revitalize the liver so it can rid the body of malignant cells. Coffee enemas, also part of Gerson therapy, are claimed to relieve pain and eliminate liver toxins in a process called detoxification.

 

The goal of metabolic therapies is to eliminate toxins from the body and enhance immune function so that the body can "fight off" cancer. Liver extract injections, pancreatic enzymes, and various supplements are said to stimulate metabolism. Proponents of metabolic therapy claim that it addresses the underlying cause of disease rather than treating the symptoms.

If you want to tinker with your digestive system, it seems to me the non-irritating diets -- see SCD/GAPS/Paleo Diets -- would be more productive. You might find something you eat every day is causing some kind of reaction aggravating your withdrawal symptoms.

Edited by Altostrata
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This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Hi, Jackson, Yes, I tried the coffee enemas along with daily vegetable juicing. I think I did three enemas a week and tried juicing every day. I did this for a couple of months. I can honestly say I don't think either the coffee enemas or the juicing really helped. I remember being more anxious after I juiced. I don't recall any side effects from the enemas. They were not unpleasant but really didn't seem to make me feel any better, either.

 

Compared to taking unknown supplements or other cns medications, I think I'd do the enemas any time.

I started withdrawing off remeron in August of 2009, with the help of a holistic physician.The reason for the withdrawal was a year or two of off and on nausea, deterioration in my thinking, and more depression. It took me a full year to work from 135 mg down to 45mg. At that point, more drops were causing more depression. Unfortuately, the nervousness that I was also feeling for the last year continued with the 45 mg. Thirty one days ago, I stopped the remeron. I am still feeling the nervousness every day and the last week, I am feeling what I think is depression but not sure. In bed in the morning, I'm already dreading another day feeling this way. I am intensely unsure of myself and find it very hard to do anything. I was a practicing veterinarian for 29 years until I found I could not practice anymore. First of all I couldn't think, or remember, and I had absolutely no confidence in anything I did. These were things I did with relative ease for twenty+ years. So, this feeling of no confidence has been during the time I was on the AD(the last 2 years) and today. I take no other medication other than my blood pressure meds. I tried supplements with my holistic dr. but they seemed to make the intense nervousness even more intense. Anyway, I truly feel stuck.

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Fasting is definitely not the way to go to stabilize the Cortisol cycle, and I say this despite my own inclination to go without eating when I don't feel well. Here's an article I came across that goes into how Cortisol and blood sugar levels interact:

 

http://www.womentowomen.com/adrenalhealth/adrenalglandfunction-nutrition.aspx

 

Here's an excerpt:

 

Eating to support your adrenal glands — small choices can make a difference

by Marcelle Pick, OB/GYN NP

 

First and foremost: timing your meals and snacks

 

One thing I often tell my patients is to never allow themselves to get too hungry. Low blood sugar by itself puts stress on your body and can tax your adrenals. You may not realize that your body is in constant need of energy — even as you sleep. And the primary adrenal hormone cortisol serves as a kind of moderator in making sure your blood sugar between meals, especially during the night, stays adequate. Long periods without food make the adrenals work harder by requiring them to release more cortisol to keep your body functioning normally. So eating three nutritious meals and two to three snacks that are well-timed throughout the day is one way to balance your blood sugar and lessen the adrenal burden.

 

When you eat can also make a difference. As you can see in the graph, cortisol has a natural cycle that works with your circadian rhythm. Normally, it begins to rise around 6:00 AM and reaches its highest peak around 8:00 AM. Throughout the day cortisol gradually declines — with small upward bumps at meal times — in preparation for nighttime rest." (emphasis mine)

 

This is one of the best articles I've read on getting that pesky Cortisol cycle to normalize. I know the last thing I need is an increase in Cortisol levels.

Psychotropic drug history: Pristiq 50 mg. (mid-September 2010 through February 2011), Remeron (mid-September 2010 through January 2011), Lexapro 10 mg. (mid-February 2011 through mid-December 2011), Lorazepam (Ativan) 1 mg. as needed mid-September 2010 through early March 2012

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Hanlon's Razor


Introduction: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1588-introducing-jemima/

 

Success Story: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6263-success-jemima-survives-lexapro-and-dr-dickhead-too/

Please note that I am not a medical professional and my advice is based on personal experience, reading, and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers.

 

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Showering your liver with "detoxifying" herbs and coffee makes no more sense than using more drugs to cure withdrawal symptoms. Coffee is not a nutrient or cleanser of any sort and most of us in withdrawal react very badly to caffeine.

 

Reflexology is an unproven pseudo-science and I wouldn't trust a reflexologist to prescribe anything at all for me. Even doctors don't know what to do about withdrawal problems and many of them don't even recognize it as separate from a relapse. An herbalist with any integrity probably wouldn't attempt to deal with it. I think your reflexologist is overstepping her bounds, however well-intentioned she may be.

Psychotropic drug history: Pristiq 50 mg. (mid-September 2010 through February 2011), Remeron (mid-September 2010 through January 2011), Lexapro 10 mg. (mid-February 2011 through mid-December 2011), Lorazepam (Ativan) 1 mg. as needed mid-September 2010 through early March 2012

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Hanlon's Razor


Introduction: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1588-introducing-jemima/

 

Success Story: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6263-success-jemima-survives-lexapro-and-dr-dickhead-too/

Please note that I am not a medical professional and my advice is based on personal experience, reading, and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers.

 

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There's no such thing as an easy withdrawal, but avoiding stress is one of the most important keys to making it not-quite-so-hard. I can't help but think that liver detoxification (along with fasting, coffee enemas, and whatnot in this category) is stressful to the body at least, and probably doesn't do one's mental state any good either. I certainly wouldn't attempt it.

 

Successful withdrawal - and by that I mean eventually getting back to normal, which is not the same thing as painless withdrawal - takes time and patience. I know very well that it's tempting to try every somewhat promising recommendation that comes along. However, the only things I've found that help are regular doses of high-quality fish oil and getting a good night's sleep by darkening the room and wearing a sleep mask.

 

There is just simply no quick and easy way to go through withdrawal.

Psychotropic drug history: Pristiq 50 mg. (mid-September 2010 through February 2011), Remeron (mid-September 2010 through January 2011), Lexapro 10 mg. (mid-February 2011 through mid-December 2011), Lorazepam (Ativan) 1 mg. as needed mid-September 2010 through early March 2012

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Hanlon's Razor


Introduction: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1588-introducing-jemima/

 

Success Story: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6263-success-jemima-survives-lexapro-and-dr-dickhead-too/

Please note that I am not a medical professional and my advice is based on personal experience, reading, and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers.

 

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Alto,

 

First of all, I don't disagree with your prime point. That stuff seems inappropriate to the core problem. I completely agree that post-SSRI CNS dysfunction can't be helped from a liver cleanse or any of a dozen other flush-remedies promoted online.

 

That said, I have contemplated certain of these treatments, but feel I can do nothing but harm myself since my brain is so scrambled. I'll explain and I hope my frustration and feeling of hopelessness due to my current health circumstance doesn't come out too much.

 

The reason I considered coffee enemas is because they are recommended by the GAPS protocol, followers of which claim helped or cured their autoimmune disorders. I am stuck though because GAPS isn't designed for people in w/d. From the book I discovered it is much more than a diet. In fact, GAPS (the book) says their was little work put into creating the diet since an appropriate diet already existed, that which is the basis of SCD.

 

GAPS includes detox baths, which may have caused me serious troubles. GAPS includes supplementation, cod liver oil, other EFAs, Betaine HCl (when necessary), ox bile (when necessary), and others. GAPS also recommends enemas, including the coffee enema.

 

GAPS promotes removal of metal dental work, promotes total avoidance of fluoride, promotes olive oil for tooth brushing... People say it works. Medical establishment said its baloney. But I've learned a lot about the "establishment" over these past few years... I am more open to alternatives but usually I've been too wrecked by the establishment to every give them fair hearing.

 

In my case, I do not know what to do to get better. Today I got on the scale and weighed the least I've weighed since before I started Drugs when I was 18. I was 158 lbs. I've lost 15 pounds in the last month.

 

The issue for me, and this gets to your point, is that the GAPS protocol represents huge risks for me. It is not designed for people with compromised nervous systems to the degree mine is compromised. For instance, the diet is very high in fat and moderately high in protein and low in carb, relatively. This is problematic. As attempts to implement it have possibly caused cholesterol to clog my gallbladder. Also, carbs play a role in he metabolic processes that supply the brain with materials for hormone productione. I'm not sure it's a good idea for people in w/d to eliminate them, especially carbs like sweet potato and brown rice, unless they have serious gut problems. But I admit i don't know this with certainty...

 

However, the basis of GAPS, the idea of inflammation due to microorganism imbalance made worse by bad diet seems sound to me, though I have no specialized knowledge. The problem is implementing drastic changes in the condition I'm in.

 

I haven't eaten perfectly. I admit to my errors, specifically eating too many sweets in the last six months, since I started trials with the GAPS stuff. But I am reaching a point of desperation. Doctors and homeopaths and psychiatrists have said "you're a mystery." yes, I've been a mystery for two years and my mysteriousness is getting deeper.

 

I am so tired. Dr. Y asked me last week, reluctantly and without pleasure, if I had considered the possibility that I have an eating disorder. This was very hard to hear and I teared up when she asked.

 

So at this point, for me, I don't see detox stuff as remedy to w/d but remedy to tertiary symptoms of withdrawal. Like, my gut issues may be more the result of the mass of antibiotics I took in early w/d, combined with poor diet, stress, and benzos. The GI stuff isn't exactly a w/d symptom and autoimmune stuff stemming from intestinal dysfunction is a further step removed. Of course, I dont know.

 

My contemplation of "detoxes" had nothing to do with the notion that remaining Effexor needs purging. I'm just trying to do what I can with what I have in this situation I find myself in.

 

I agree with the premise in the original post, but I'll add that when a forum full of people claim their protocol can and does cures autoimmune diseases and my physician has told me I'm heading towards one or more and he has no recommendation for prevention... I start to weigh the risks in a different light.

 

And I just start to feel hopeless; that I don't know what to do and I am probably the world's top authority on my own health predicament. So, yea, detoxes sound foolish. But think of all the things in medicine that seemed so very reasonable a decade ago. I dunno.

 

Just to be clear. I don't think a coffee enema is a good idea for people in w/d. I don't think it's a good idea for me. But my insides are inflamed and sludged up. Sometimes Ive risked worse to get better. This usually results in worse. Still I dream of the better...

 

My present situation impacts my thinking. I am as bad as ever. I feel less certain of my recovery. Coming to think that no king's horses and no king's men can undo this horrible thing that happened to me.

 

Sadness.

 

Alex

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

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Why do you think a (highly questionable) cancer therapy is going to help your autonomic condition?

 

From the American Cancer Society http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/ComplementaryandAlternativeMedicine/DietandNutrition/gerson-therapy

It seems to me that cancer patients are in the exact same dilemma as we are as psychiatric patients - the mainstream treatment model is pushing BigPharma harmful bandaid solutions (pills in psychiatriy, chemotherapy in cancer treatment), and alternative practices are shunned for that reason. Most everywhere I read, Gerson therapy seems to have great success in treating cancer, and plenty of anecdotal evidence also seem to back this up. Anecdotal accounts holds a lot more value to me when it comes to treatment options, seeing how I was completely duped by BOUGHT SCIENCE and massive CONFLICT OF INTEREST in the medical establishment when I got my life ruined by psychiatric medications. Mainstream treatments with money trails to the pharmaceutical companies can kiss my ass really. Yes I am angry. Gerson therapy sounds a thousand times safer and more common sense than chemotherapy.

 

But I digress.

 

 

 

Hi, Jackson, Yes, I tried the coffee enemas along with daily vegetable juicing. I think I did three enemas a week and tried juicing every day. I did this for a couple of months. I can honestly say I don't think either the coffee enemas or the juicing really helped. I remember being more anxious after I juiced. I don't recall any side effects from the enemas. They were not unpleasant but really didn't seem to make me feel any better, either.

 

Compared to taking unknown supplements or other cns medications, I think I'd do the enemas any time.

 

Great to hear a personal experience. Did you feel anything different after an enema? Like the normal stimulation you would get from oral ingestion of coffee, or just nothing?

 

I've tried a myriad of supplements, and all of them are completely useless. I am still taking fish oil, just because, but I don't think it really does anything.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

 

Showering your liver with "detoxifying" herbs and coffee makes no more sense than using more drugs to cure withdrawal symptoms. Coffee is not a nutrient or cleanser of any sort and most of us in withdrawal react very badly to caffeine.

 

Reflexology is an unproven pseudo-science and I wouldn't trust a reflexologist to prescribe anything at all for me. Even doctors don't know what to do about withdrawal problems and many of them don't even recognize it as separate from a relapse. An herbalist with any integrity probably wouldn't attempt to deal with it. I think your reflexologist is overstepping her bounds, however well-intentioned she may be.

 

If there are no real risks associated, I don't mind trying really. The problem is, when you are suggested potentially dangerous "cures" (cough psychiatric medications) to deal with your symptoms. A coffee enema seems completely harmless, and it doesn't have the same effects as oral ingestion. My reflexologist didn't prescribe anything to me, she merely suggested me to look into it, so there's no fault on her.

 

Also I don't suffer from withdrawal, I suffer from something extremely arbitrary called "adverse reaction" that no human being on planet earth can explain to me what is, and since they refuse to give me a PET / fMRI scan in my country, it is impossible for me to survey the damage done, and target treatments specifically toward the problem. I have to guess and experiment on my own, and I am willing to do that, as long as what I am trying is safe and only have short term unpleasantness. Supplements, therapies and enemas all fall into that category, so that is where I am focusing my efforts at the moment.

 

Thanks for your input though, it's all appreciated and taken into consideration.

Suffered a severe adverse reaction to the tricyclic drug Nortriptyline in October 2008, which completely wrecked my brain and my nervous system. I am currently in my 38th month of recovery, with many symptoms still present, and with no improvement in quality of life, which is still nonexistant. The damage is so severe, that I fear I've been permanently disabled. I struggle to get outside as often as I can (still only for short periods of time), but I am still very much a vegetable mentally.

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Hi Jackson...

 

The first antidepressant I took was "Pamelor" (noritryptaline). I helped alot the anxiety and not much for depression. I gained weight on it and had dry mouth. I tapered off of that and onto Paxil. I did experience some withdrawal in the crossover process.

 

An adverse reaction is exactly what it sounds like. Have you gone thru the battery of tests to rule out other possible causes?

 

Have you had a liver profile done by your doctor? It almost sounds like you are experiecing CFS, maybe the EBV. I had EBV and went on norytrip. and it may have compounded the EBV and fatigue.

 

What about supplements (vitamins) to help bolster your immune system.

 

I feel for you....I don't understand the coffee enema and why it would help you.

 

Hang in there...Hugs

Intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1902-nikki-hi-my-rundown-with-ads/

 

Paxil 1997-2004

Crossed over to Lexapro Paxil not available

at Pharmacies GSK halted deliveries

Lexapro 40mgs

Lexapro taper (2years)

Imipramine

Imipramine and Celexa

Now Nefazadone/Imipramine 50mgs. each

45mgs. Serzone  50mgs. Imipramine

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Hi Jackson...

 

The first antidepressant I took was "Pamelor" (noritryptaline). I helped alot the anxiety and not much for depression. I gained weight on it and had dry mouth. I tapered off of that and onto Paxil. I did experience some withdrawal in the crossover process.

 

An adverse reaction is exactly what it sounds like. Have you gone thru the battery of tests to rule out other possible causes?

 

Have you had a liver profile done by your doctor? It almost sounds like you are experiecing CFS, maybe the EBV. I had EBV and went on norytrip. and it may have compounded the EBV and fatigue.

 

What about supplements (vitamins) to help bolster your immune system.

 

I feel for you....I don't understand the coffee enema and why it would help you.

 

Hang in there...Hugs

 

I have had a full blood test, CT scan, and dozens of hours of diagnostic interviews, and none have revealed an exact cause of the symptoms.

 

While I do know that it was caused by the drug, the actual type of damage done is still very much unbeknownst to me. I have had over 50 different symptoms, all related to the brain, the gut and the nervous system and I have still yet to figure out what exactly is wrong.

 

- Is it damage to my post synaptic receptors?

- Is it some type of inflammation in the brain?

- Is it restricted blood flow?

- Is it damaged nerve cells?

- Is it disrupted serotonine production?

- Is it the onset of chronic fatigue syndrome?

- Is it a combination of the above, or is it something else entirely?

 

I don't know. And I don't know how to find out. And I don't know anyone, who knows either. What a predicament to be in. The only thing I know for sure, is that it is drug-induced damage. But that doesn't help me very much diagnostically. But to me, it doesn't sound very far fetched that my liver has been compromised, and the adverse reaction I had possibly happened due to some sort of metabolic dysfunction from the liver to begin with, seeing as only a very very small percentage of people who has taken these drugs, has had an adverse reaction similar to mine.

 

Getting a liver profile could be a good idea. How do i go about that? Should I just ask my doctor?

Suffered a severe adverse reaction to the tricyclic drug Nortriptyline in October 2008, which completely wrecked my brain and my nervous system. I am currently in my 38th month of recovery, with many symptoms still present, and with no improvement in quality of life, which is still nonexistant. The damage is so severe, that I fear I've been permanently disabled. I struggle to get outside as often as I can (still only for short periods of time), but I am still very much a vegetable mentally.

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Barbarannamated

Alex-

I've hesitated to mention this but since you touched on it … it *seems* like your recent downturn coincided with the Epsom Salt bath -

A Naturopath refused me a detox foot soak for this reason although he may have just been trying to steer me to his full program $$$ -

I only bring this up in the off chance it is why your symptoms have intensified and process accelerated with the Epsom Salt soak - I've been surprised at how powerful they are and effected by the quality of bath salts -

Please take this only for the hunch it is -

{{Hugs}}

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

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Alex, it's not my area of specialty, but I understand there are many schools of thought regarding GAPS.

 

There may be some purists who demand you do everything perfectly -- utmost purification -- to realized the most extravagant benefits of the diet. I would be suspicious of this train of thought. It's too much like superstition -- if your sacrificial lamb has one blemish, the crops will fail.

 

As you point out, one size does not fit all diet-wise, and the GAPS diet may not be beneficial for everyone.

 

As for reducing stressors that might cause autoimmune disorders, it makes sense a simplified diet might help with this. It may also bring the person's attention to how specific foods make him or her feel, increasing the effectiveness of self-care, leading to a greater sense of control and well-being.

 

However, I cannot see how a coffee enema computes in any of this. There are plenty of ways to clear the colon (drinking a bunch of carrot juice works wonders for me) that don't involve this level of weirdness.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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....

I have had a full blood test, CT scan, and dozens of hours of diagnostic interviews, and none have revealed an exact cause of the symptoms.

 

While I do know that it was caused by the drug, the actual type of damage done is still very much unbeknownst to me. I have had over 50 different symptoms, all related to the brain, the gut and the nervous system and I have still yet to figure out what exactly is wrong.

 

- Is it damage to my post synaptic receptors?

- Is it some type of inflammation in the brain?

- Is it restricted blood flow?

- Is it damaged nerve cells?

- Is it disrupted serotonine production?

- Is it the onset of chronic fatigue syndrome?

- Is it a combination of the above, or is it something else entirely?

 

I don't know. And I don't know how to find out. And I don't know anyone, who knows either. What a predicament to be in. The only thing I know for sure, is that it is drug-induced damage. But that doesn't help me very much diagnostically. But to me, it doesn't sound very far fetched that my liver has been compromised, and the adverse reaction I had possibly happened due to some sort of metabolic dysfunction from the liver to begin with, seeing as only a very very small percentage of people who has taken these drugs, has had an adverse reaction similar to mine.

 

....

 

Jackson, look at the way you've described your condition. What does this have in common with cancer, other than they both occur in the body?

 

If you read up on the autonomic nervous system, you will see how your symptoms can be so widely distributed, and why small changes are better to help it heal itself. Autonomic nervous system dysfunction does not show up on any tests. Cancer can be seen and tracked.

 

It seems to me that you want to do something dramatic to help yourself, you've made up your mind to do this. It's your colon, you can do anything you want with it (as long as it's not in public). Good luck to you!

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Alex, it's not my area of specialty, but I understand there are many schools of thought regarding GAPS.

 

There may be some purists who demand you do everything perfectly -- utmost purification -- to realized the most extravagant benefits of the diet. I would be suspicious of this train of thought. It's too much like superstition -- if your sacrificial lamb has one blemish, the crops will fail.

 

As you point out, one size does not fit all diet-wise, and the GAPS diet may not be beneficial for everyone.

 

As for reducing stressors that might cause autoimmune disorders, it makes sense a simplified diet might help with this. It may also bring the person's attention to how specific foods make him or her feel, increasing the effectiveness of self-care, leading to a greater sense of control and well-being.

 

However, I cannot see how a coffee enema computes in any of this. There are plenty of ways to clear the colon (drinking a bunch of carrot juice works wonders for me) that don't involve this level of weirdness.

 

It's frustration, A. It's not really that the coffee enema is a solution.

 

Alex

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

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I know, alex, and a coffee enema sounds so -- dramatic. Its very wackiness is appealing.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Alex-

I've hesitated to mention this but since you touched on it … it *seems* like your recent downturn coincided with the Epsom Salt bath -

A Naturopath refused me a detox foot soak for this reason although he may have just been trying to steer me to his full program $$$ -

I only bring this up in the off chance it is why your symptoms have intensified and process accelerated with the Epsom Salt soak - I've been surprised at how powerful they are and effected by the quality of bath salts -

Please take this only for the hunch it is -

{{Hugs}}

 

Thanks Barb. HUGS back.

 

I lost track of how much I was taking. I had 3 different brands plus bath salts. Looking back it added to about 1000mg one day, 700mg once or twice, 200-300 on average for a couple weeks but some days 0mg. Bath wiped me out.

 

Confused, weak, slow for days. I had an appt scheduled 2 days after and also 3 days after the bath night. Two days later a shrink told me he thought I was high, "too stoned". Three days later doc's nurse was concerned bc my bp and body temp were so low. 3 days afterwards! By the end of the week, things had fallen apart. I was terrified my kidneys were failing. Pain. Constant urination. And I started to slide.

 

I still don't know that magnesium is the cause of my downturn for sure. But I suspected it back then. So a week after bath night, still not feeling right, I called poison control. The woman said that amount of magnesium (barring a missing kidney or something) wouldnt have pronounced effect. I wanted to tell her, "You dont understand. I'm all crisscrossed."

 

Oh well.

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

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I know, alex, and a coffee enema sounds so -- dramatic. Its very wackiness is appealing.

 

Sure is. In a way the wackier the better when given to magical thinking.

"Well my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast
I'm drowning in the poison, got no future, got no past
But my heart is not weary, it's light and it's free
I've got nothing but affection for all those who sailed with me.

Everybody's moving, if they ain't already there
Everybody's got to move somewhere
Stick with me baby, stick with me anyhow
Things should start to get interesting right about now."

- Zimmerman

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Barbarannamated

Hey Crisscrossed ~

I believe this doc's words to me were "you're too toxic …don't want to bring on a 'healing crisis'…you'll feel like **** …"

Epsom salts are one agent used in chelation -

I got VERY sick after a bodywrap/sauna at a dayspa years ago (perhaps the margaritas the previous day factored in) -

This guy's words keep playing to me when I read your messages - I'm skeptical of anyone pushing a *Program* but he said ALOT that rang true -

All this to say … if this was a 'chelation type' process and reaction it explains your increased symptoms and haywire metabolism of the past several weeks and not new onset problems -

I'm doing a phenomenally bad job of explaining this :(

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

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My condition isn't withdrawal either, it is something much more profound. The only word I know that can somewhat describe it is "adverse reaction", but we all know that this term is an extremely vague description, and leaves no attempt to describe what is ACTUALLY malfunctioning in the brain and body.

 

Hi Jackson, I'm sorry you have had such a horrific time and can understand how you might differentiate between adverse reaction and withdrawal, but I think this an arbitrary differentiation. Withdrawal is an adverse reaction, and funds have not been invested in research so there is little information other than anecdotal reports. I've just been scratching my head, trying to tease out the difference between tolerance withdrawal, interdose withdrawal, and withdrawal symptoms that occur during the 'normal' process of a taper. But none of these really mean anything.. our systems get so sensitized to all this crap, it's a crime.

 

There are no words to adequately convey the appreciation I have for the sort of resource this forum provides.

 

Schuyler

As always, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY! A proud supporter of the 10% (or slower) rule.

 

Requip - 3/16 ZERO  Total time on 25 years.

 

Lyrica: 8/15 ZERO Total time on 7 or 8 yrs.

BENZO FREE 10/13 (started tapering 7/10)  Total time on 25 years.

 

Read my intro thread here, and check the about me section.  "No matter how cynical you get, it's almost impossible to keep up." Lily Tomlin

 

 

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....

I have had a full blood test, CT scan, and dozens of hours of diagnostic interviews, and none have revealed an exact cause of the symptoms.

 

While I do know that it was caused by the drug, the actual type of damage done is still very much unbeknownst to me. I have had over 50 different symptoms, all related to the brain, the gut and the nervous system and I have still yet to figure out what exactly is wrong.

 

- Is it damage to my post synaptic receptors?

- Is it some type of inflammation in the brain?

- Is it restricted blood flow?

- Is it damaged nerve cells?

- Is it disrupted serotonine production?

- Is it the onset of chronic fatigue syndrome?

- Is it a combination of the above, or is it something else entirely?

 

I don't know. And I don't know how to find out. And I don't know anyone, who knows either. What a predicament to be in. The only thing I know for sure, is that it is drug-induced damage. But that doesn't help me very much diagnostically. But to me, it doesn't sound very far fetched that my liver has been compromised, and the adverse reaction I had possibly happened due to some sort of metabolic dysfunction from the liver to begin with, seeing as only a very very small percentage of people who has taken these drugs, has had an adverse reaction similar to mine.

 

....

 

Jackson, look at the way you've described your condition. What does this have in common with cancer, other than they both occur in the body?

 

If you read up on the autonomic nervous system, you will see how your symptoms can be so widely distributed, and why small changes are better to help it heal itself. Autonomic nervous system dysfunction does not show up on any tests. Cancer can be seen and tracked.

 

It seems to me that you want to do something dramatic to help yourself, you've made up your mind to do this. It's your colon, you can do anything you want with it (as long as it's not in public). Good luck to you!

 

I don't think autonomic dysfunction and cancer have much in common in particular, however I only asserted the notion that a coffee enema was used to detoxify the liver, which also has benefit in treating other ailments such as cancer. I am not claiming it to be any kind of cure, I simply do not know. But I am at a point now, where simply waiting just isn't cutting it. I have tried all the "small" things. They are garbage. Supplements are garbage. Praying is garbage. Walking is garbage. Talking is garbage. It's just not helping my body heal. I'm still sick beyond belief with only small improvements in my condition, despite trying all of this quite extensively. The only things that have given me some benefit, is very strenous exercise. And that is a mixed bag in itself. I'm too sick to do it often, and sometimes the result is negative. My body simply can not handle much rigorous exercise in this state (a few times a month, maybe), so what am I supposed to do?

 

I think I just disagree with you that a coffee enema is something dramatic. It seems very benign to me. Dramatic would be TMS, ECT, Surgery or drug treatments. A liver detox just seems like a natural next step to me, in trying to find beneficial ways to aid my body.

 

Let's play devil's advocate here; what is the worst that could happen, really? Compared to living for 5 years with intense chemical damage to a most critical part of the brain, I can't see what harm an enema could do in comparison. It's coffee, really.

Suffered a severe adverse reaction to the tricyclic drug Nortriptyline in October 2008, which completely wrecked my brain and my nervous system. I am currently in my 38th month of recovery, with many symptoms still present, and with no improvement in quality of life, which is still nonexistant. The damage is so severe, that I fear I've been permanently disabled. I struggle to get outside as often as I can (still only for short periods of time), but I am still very much a vegetable mentally.

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Barbarannamated

I see adverse reactions as different than withdrawal and more in line with cumulative iatrogenic drug damage mentioned in another thread - it is possible that withdrawing drug reveals the cumulative damages (or immediate irreversible damage in some cases) or changes that occurred over the years on drug -

At 5 years out it I'm sure I'd be willing to try just about anything although I do understand that detoxing the liver in an effort to rid the body of drug is countering the whole purpose of a slow taper and allowing the body to reestablish homeostasis -

Please correct if I'm misunderstanding -

 

I am curious about TMS - I was under the impression that that is RELATIVELY 'less dangerous' but not very effective in depression treatment but I have never researched it-

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

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I see adverse reactions as different than withdrawal and more in line with cumulative iatrogenic drug damage mentioned in another thread - it is possible that withdrawing drug reveals the cumulative damages (or immediate irreversible damage in some cases) or changes that occurred over the years on drug -

Hi Barbara.. I was trying to say the same. Guess I was less than clear. I don't know how I'd be able to cope with 5 years adverse reaction. Probably not as well as Jackson. His story is sobering to say the least.

 

 

I am curious about TMS - I was under the impression that that is RELATIVELY 'less dangerous' but not very effective in depression treatment but I have never researched it-

 

My sister's roommate just had TMS leads implanted surgically, and I wonder if that was the meaning. I did a double take on that first read as well.

 

Schuyler

As always, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY! A proud supporter of the 10% (or slower) rule.

 

Requip - 3/16 ZERO  Total time on 25 years.

 

Lyrica: 8/15 ZERO Total time on 7 or 8 yrs.

BENZO FREE 10/13 (started tapering 7/10)  Total time on 25 years.

 

Read my intro thread here, and check the about me section.  "No matter how cynical you get, it's almost impossible to keep up." Lily Tomlin

 

 

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Just wanted to say that I have made a decision. I will get a full colon cleanse at a professional colon clinic this month. First with saline water that goes all the way to the actual colon to clean out residue, and then I will ask them to do a coffee enema afterwards for the liver detoxification. Price will be equivalent of $140 for both.

 

I'll let you know how it goes.

Suffered a severe adverse reaction to the tricyclic drug Nortriptyline in October 2008, which completely wrecked my brain and my nervous system. I am currently in my 38th month of recovery, with many symptoms still present, and with no improvement in quality of life, which is still nonexistant. The damage is so severe, that I fear I've been permanently disabled. I struggle to get outside as often as I can (still only for short periods of time), but I am still very much a vegetable mentally.

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Main things I'd look out for are:

 

--Caffeine. Many people (most actually) have to avoid it altogether during withdrawal as it ramps up symptoms. I don't know if this is a problem in your case.

 

--"Cleanses" of various sorts are designed for people who have normal CNS to begin with. When you do a cleanse, any reputable practitioner will tell you that it will be stressful to your body. This can be very challenging to people struggling with CNS healing, who generally need LESS stress for healing, rather than more.

 

--High colonics and to a lesser degree enemas will mess up your normal flora and may perturb your enteric nervous system. There's a lot of recent research showing that intestinal flora affect the gut's nervous system, which then affects the CNS. This is what the GAPs diet is based on--normalizing natural flora, healing the gut, in order to stabilize the nervous system effects. I'd be careful with screwing with that.

 

Also, I don't remember reading about coffee enemas in the GAPS book...just regular enemas to deal with constipation only. Did I miss something?

 

A couple of years ago I looked into coffee enemas and I didn't find much actual scientific evidence to support them. Everything I found, if you traced it back, came from the Gershon Institute.

 

It's not just Alto who doesn't think these cleanse type approaches are a good thing in withdrawal. Gianna Kali, a pioneer in peer resource psych drug withdrawal, who's seen hundreds of people all over the world through the process, also finds that these intense cleanses often do more harm than good. As she explains (better than I do), these alternative treatments and cleanses and various supplement therapies are designed for people whose CNS's are normal. Which is not the case if you're dealing with psych drug effects and withdrawal.

 

Not trying to change your mind--you've obviously thought this through for yourself and you're a grownup. Just putting my thoughts into the discussion.

 

I will be curious to hear how this works for you, and I certainly do understand the willingness and desire to experiment with something that could help.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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