EspyB: withdrawal

[EspyB]

Thank you so much for this website! I’ve been reading everything about tapering. Before I do a proper intro can I ask a general question? There was some confusion with my measuring and I’m not sure if I lessened or upped my dosage. Was wondering if apathy is a sign of WD or increased dose or either? 

[ChessieCat]

Hi EspyB and welcome to SA,

 

A change in dose can cause an increase in withdrawal symptoms.  It may take a couple of weeks for things to settle back down again.  Please hold for longer before making another reduction.

 

Please create your drug signature using the following format.   Keep it simple.  NO diagnoses or symptoms please - thank you.

• details for last 2 years - dates, ALL drugs, doses
• summary for older than 2 years - just years and drug/s

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

 

 

This is your own introductions topic where your can ask questions about your own situation and journal your progress.

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by ChessieCat

[ChessieCat]

SA recommends tapering by no more than 10% of the current dose with a hold of about 4 weeks to allow the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.  Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

When we take away some of the drug we can experience withdrawal symptoms.  The tapering protocol we recommend aims to do this slowly enough so that withdrawal symptoms are kept to a minimum.  Dr Joseph Glenmullen's Withdrawal Symptoms

 

This topic has links to how to get the dose you need for different drugs:  Important topics in the Tapering forum and FAQ

 

Here's some additional information which might help you to understand what is happening:

 

Recovery isn't linear it happens in a Windows and Waves Pattern

 

Withdrawal Normal Description

When we take a psychiatric drug, we are adding chemical/s to the brain.  The brain then has to change to adapt to getting the chemical/s.  It might have to change something to do with A and then once that change has been made it affects B so another change has to be made and so on down the line.  It is a chain reaction, a domino effect.

 

The same thing happens when we take the drug away.  That's why it's possible to experience such a vast array of withdrawal symptoms, and they can change, and be of different intensity.

 

are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take

 

These explain it really well:

 

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

 

On 8/31/2011 at 5:28 AM, Rhiannon said:

When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay. When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse. SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long.

 

AND

 

On 12/4/2015 at 2:41 AM, apace41 said:

Basically- you have a building where the MAJOR steel structures are trying to be rebuilt at different times - ALL while people are coming and going in the building and attempting to work.

It would be like if the World Trade Center Towers hadn't completely fallen - but had crumbled inside in different places.. Imagine if you were trying to rebuild the tower - WHILE people were coming and going and trying to work in the building!  You'd have to set up a temporary elevator - but when you needed to fix part of that area, you'd have to tear down that elevator and set up a temporary elevator somewhere else. And so on. You'd have to build, work around, then tear down, then build again, then work around, then build... ALL while people are coming and going, ALL while the furniture is being replaced, ALL while the walls are getting repainted... ALL while life is going on INSIDE the building. No doubt it would be chaotic. That is EXACTLY what is happening with windows and waves.  The windows are where the body has "got it right" for a day or so - but then the building shifts and the brain works on something else - and it's chaos again while another temporary pathway is set up to reroute function until repairs are made.  

 

[ChessieCat]

We strongly encourage members to learn and use non drug coping techniques to help get through discomfort and tough times.

 

Understanding what is happening helps us to not get caught up with the second fear, or fear of the fear.  This happens when we experience sensations in our body and because we don't understand them we are scared of them and then start to panic.

 

This document has a diagram of the body explaining what happens in the body when we become anxious:

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/docs/AnxietySelfHelp.pdf

 

Anxiety Stuff - all kinds of stuff about anxiety attacks and things that help ...

 

Audio FEMALE VOICE:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

Audio MALE VOICE:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

Non-drug techniques to cope

 

dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

Dr Claire Weekes suffered from anxiety and learned and taught ways of coping.  There are videos available on YouTube.

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes

 

CBT Course:  An Introductory Self-Help Course in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy

 

Resources:  Centre for Clinical Interventions (PDF modules that you can work through, eg:  Depression, Distress Intolerance, Health Anxiety, Low Self-Esteem, Panic Attacks, Perfectionism, Procrastination, Social Anxiety, Worrying)

 

On 4/28/2017 at 4:03 AM, brassmonkey said:

 

AAF: Acknowledge, Accept, Float.  It's what you have to do when nothing else works, and can be a very powerful tool in coping with anxiety.  The neuroemotional anxiety many of us feel during WD is directly caused by the drugs and their chemical reactions in the brain.  Making it so there is nothing we can do about them.  They won't respond to other drugs, relaxation techniques and the like.  They do, however, react very well to being ignored.  That's the concept behind AAF.  Acknowledge, get to know the feeling involved, explore them.  Accept, These feelings are a part of you and they aren't going anywhere fast. Float, let the feeling float off as you get on with your life as best as you can.  It's a well documented fact that the more you feed in to anxiety the worse it gets.  What starts as generalized neuroemotinal anxiety can be easily blown into a full fledged panic attack just by thinking about it.

 

I often liken it to an unwanted house guest.  At first you talk to them, have conversations, communicate with them.  After a while you figure out that they aren't leaving and there is nothing you can do to get rid of them.  So you go on about your day, working around them until they get bored and leave.

 

It can take some practice, but AAF really does work.  I hope you give it a try.

 

 

[EspyB]

Thank you so much for your response and all this info. The reason I’m hesitant to add my info is because the problem is a supplement- magnesium. I had no idea it would cause such a dependence. I had only been taking it a couple months and abruptly stopped because it wasn’t working anymore for my insomnia. A couple weeks later I started getting WD symptoms of twitching, hypnic jerks, anxiety, and worse insomnia than ever before. I got back on it and I was better for a few weeks before it would stop working again. After several months and doing tons of research I realized it was acting as an antidepressant. If I try to lower the dose the WD is SO bad. I am so desperate for support. No doctors would agree with me that this is what’s causing my symptoms- symptoms that I have NEVER had before taking this. Would you still accept me in your support group? I am feeling very hopeless....

[ChessieCat]

We need to know your drug history so that we can assess your situation.  Please complete your drug signature as requested.

[Carmie]

Hi Espy, 

 

I’m really sorry you’ve been getting so many symptoms. Could you please put in your drug signature. Just press on the link ChessieCat gave you.

 

Have you been on any other meds as well? If so when, and what were the doses. When did you stop them? Include the magnesium and how much you’re on. Thanks so much. 

 

Sending hugs🤗

 

 

[EspyB]

Hi Chessiecat, I completed the signature😊. Thanks so much for all the info you’ve sent me.

 

Carmie, thank you for your comforting message😊.

[ChessieCat]

Are you taking any other drugs or supplements?

 

We need to know your full drug history please, not just the magnesium.  It might be something else which is causing the issues.  Thank you.

[EspyB]

Hi ChessieCat,

 

yes that is all I have taken, thanks.

[ChessieCat]

18 minutes ago, EspyB said:

yes that is all I have taken

 

I don't mean just in the last few months.  If you have ever taken other drugs, even years ago, you may be experiencing delayed withdrawal that you haven't connected to what is happening now.

 

I cold turkeyed citalopram and felt great for a few months and then was bedridden for 2.5 weeks with what I thought was the flu, but it wasn't "typical" flu.  It wasn't until I found SA that I realised that it was actually withdrawal from the citalopram.

 

What about birth control methods?  Antihistamines?  Pain killers?  Benzos?  Antidepressants?  Street drugs?  Antibiotics?

[EspyB]

I might have had antibiotics before when I was a child.... I’m 50 years old so it’s been many years. I’ve  taken ibuprofen before but not often or in consecutive days. I have been healthy for many years. I know it sounds crazy but please believe me. I have heard of this happening to people who have taken this supplement.

[ChessieCat]

It's not that I don't believe you.  It's just that we have people who join SA and think that they have a problem with something and then down the track we find out that they haven't told us about something else they have taken and it turns out that what they haven't told us about is what caused the issue and we have spent lots of time and effort trying to figure it out and get the information from them.  Very frustrating.

 

If you have taken something and when you have stopped it you notice the difference, and nothing else has happened or you haven't come into contact with something else, or started or stopped other things, then it may be that magnesium is the cause.  The quick bit of research I've done found the information at the bottom of this post.  Because magnesium is involved in such a large number of areas, then suddenly taking it away may cause issues, because your body has been used to getting it.

 

We aren't really in a position to comment on it because the issues that we come across here are generally related to members being sensitive when taking something new, or something that used to work turns paradoxical, because they are taking, have reduced, or stopped taking a psychiatric drug.  Magnesium

 

You might find our insomnia topic helpful:  Sleep problems - that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

and

 

Melatonin

 

From https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/sleep-newzzz/201805/what-you-need-know-about-magnesium-and-your-sleep

"How does magnesium work?

Magnesium plays a widespread role in the human body, helping regulate and facilitate many essential functions. One of magnesium’s most important roles is as an enabler of healthy enzyme function. Magnesium is involved in more than 300 different enzyme-related reactions in the body’s cells.

 

In addition, magnesium:

• Plays a key role in energy production, activating ATP, the energy molecule that fuels your body’s cells
• Regulates transport of calcium, potassium, and other essential minerals, helping muscles and nerves function properly, and maintaining heart rhythm
• Regulates blood pressure, cholesterol production, and blood glucose levels
• Aids bone development and guards against bone loss
• Functions as an electrolyte, maintaining fluid balance in your body
• Helps control your body’s stress-response system and hormones that elevate or diminish stress"

 

[eymen23]

Espy,

 

Would you be able to tell us a little bit more about your use of magnesium. Why did you start using it? Was it something you wanted to take to boost general health or had you been suffering with anxiety or insomnia before taking it? 

[EspyB]

Hi Chessie and eymen, thank you for your response and the links to info. I do understand if you can’t comment because it’s not a psychiatric drug. I couldn’t believe it myself that I would get these symptoms from withdrawal of a supplement. But if you think about what magnesium does- which is that it increases serotonin, it all makes sense. I do think it’s a necessary mineral, but should be taken in food and not as a supplement. I started taking it for insomnia, and it worked extremely well at first. Then it stopped working after several weeks and so I stopped. Then 2-3 weeks later I started getting twitches, then came hypnic jerks and the worst insomnia ever, as well as electrical shock sensations and tinnitus, anxiety, panic attacks- things I had never experienced before in my life! What I thought was “insomnia” before I took the supplement was nothing compared to insomnia in WD. I decided to slowly get back on it after nothing improved after a couple months and I got better but the symptoms would come back several weeks later and I had to increase my dosage. After tons of research and no help from 3 neurologists I realized that this supplement was acting like an antidepressant. To me it makes sense because I’ve heard of people getting dependent on this as well as GABA and other similar supplements. I just haven’t found any support groups for it though.

[eymen23]

I tried to do some digging on this last night and from what I understand some people do have strong symptoms when stopping magnesium supplementation. 

 

As you’re aware magnesium is a vital mineral and it is a necessary cofactor in hundreds of reactions in the body. To say that it is functioning as an antidepressant,

or acting on serotonin, is probably nothing more than a wild guess. That being said, I am not doubting that you are experiencing these strong symptoms and that they are related to stopping the supplementation, just that the reason for why is probably off. 

 

I believe the body begins to reduce its ability to absorb magnesium through the digestive tract, with daily supplementation. It could be that stopping abruptly led to symptoms of magnesium deficiency. There are examples of similar happening with vitamin c. People who dose highly

with vitamin c, need to slowly reduce the amount consumed, or they risk developing scurvy.... even though they have had lots of vitamin c.

 

It’s quite possible you need to taper off magnesium or at the very least maintain on a lower dose, but given how infrequently people complain of this and that there isn’t any reliable information out there, it may well be a case of slowly reducing and seeing how your body reacts.

 

Sorry I couldn’t be of more assistance. It might be worth contacting Carolyn Dean who has written books about the importance of magnesium. She might have more idea in regards to what is happening. 

 

[EspyB]

Eymen, thank you. The info on vitamin C is interesting. I had started reducing by 10% in December and held for a month and have found that I get WD symptoms, which is why I see it as similar to antidepressants. I really wish it wasn’t the same but we’ll see....The whole concept of stopping vitamin C abruptly and getting that reaction gives me some hope....I very much appreciate your time in researching this. It’s been a very frustrating year of not getting answers and also receiving absolutely no empathy or compassion from doctors. It’s nice to have people who care enough to  research and answer my questions like you and Chessie. Wishing you all lots of healing.

[eymen23]

You’re very welcome. I really hope you can find more answers and get some relief soon! 

[ChessieCat]

Another theory.  It may be that you were deficient in magnesium without knowing it and when you stopped taking it the magnesium deficiency was magnified.

[EspyB]

I really wish that was the reason, but I had my magnesium levels checked even with the RBC test that Dr. Carolyn Dean (Magnesium Miracle) suggested and it was at the high level that she recommended- 6.3... I even contacted them to get their advice and all they said was to take more and to try their brand of magnesium. Unfortunately every time I took more, it got to the point where it would increase my symptoms- shakiness, twitches, jerking, stiffness, insomnia, tinnitus, memory issues... But after I got that lab result I tried to decrease but the WD symptoms intensified like crazy.

 

I appreciate your input though. 🙂 Wishing you much healing and peace.

[Wellbutrinsucks]

If you have normal magnesium levels, taking magnesium supplements can cause the twitching and jerking specifically. One of my doctors told me that after my twitching and jerking got worse after having a B12 shot. It had also gotten worse months before when I started magnesium supplements as well. 

 

 

[EspyB]

Yes I think you’re right. Now the problem is that I can’t lower my dose easily because I get WD symptoms. We’re you able to stop the magnesium? Thanks so much for your comment.

[Wellbutrinsucks]

Yeah I just stopped it; I didn’t have any withdrawal issues from stopping it as I usually only took it once and then when I got the adverse reaction I didn’t take it anymore.